Did anyone figure out warping on the plate

[John Watson]

Hi all rehashing an older problem ..I did look thru the forum to see if there was a good resolve for this but couldnt seem to find a good solution
Has anyone  got beyond ..warping builds
problem I have is the blue tape pulls up  on larger builds ..I have tried rafts  hairspray..ears..you name it ..but cant stop the builds from lifting around the edges
I have ordered a glass plate ..but don't think that will help me out .. well unless it sticks like a good un ..but I hear poeple are still using bluetape or hairspray
is this a cooling to quick or is it to do with not cooling fast enough ..the shrinkage is pretty bad aon large flat surfaces..to the point it will actually peel itself of the plate ...around the edges
I am open to any suggestions ..I was going to either create something to blow cool air or hot air around the build plate
thoughts??

[David Allie]

Got same thing,can't get any thing to work.

[David Kessner]

On my Rep2, I had major problems with the blue tape lifting up and the prints warping.  Here's what I did, and what happened:

1.  I got a glass plate.  

2.  Tried hairspray (Aquanet #3), and it didn't work (read on for an update on the hairspray).

3.  Blue tape on the glass didn't work.  Tape still lifted and parts still warped.

4.  Etched the glass (Plus tape).  This worked much better, but not perfect.  Tape still lifted a little.  I just used a bottle of glass etching cream from the local hobby/crafts store.

5.  Tried the hairspray again.  This time I used two medium-thickness coats.  Worked awesome!  I guess I didn't use enough before.

I now have to apply more hairspray every print or every other print.  Some of the spray comes off with the part, so you have to replace it.  

I am not sure if the etched glass is a requirement for the hairspray.  

The prints warp less if I leave them on the glass to cool down after printing.  With PLA and the cooling fan the prints are never hot after printing.  But if I remove them quickly they tend to warp more than if I leave them on for a long time.  With the glass+hair spray the warping is basically non-existent.

I am never, ever, going back to the blue tape!

-DK

[sciencemike]

Have you Tried cleaning the plate really well before sticking the tape down. This will help the tape stick better so that it does not peel up as easily.

[Jay]

Since none of usuals have spoken up I'll ask a few questions..and be warned..I don't have my 2X yet...I have a 3D Cube printer.

 

What material? (PLA or ABS)

Pics? That way we can see what it's doing.

 

I assume you're using a R2?

If so, are you 100% about your leveling?

 Do you have other prints that are similiar ? I mean, if you getting warping in a certain axis at a certain height...do you have something that prints that high and how did it do?

Are you 100% on your leveling?

Have you read and searched for typical problems you need to check for on your machine that could cause this? (ie...extruder slipping, warped acrylic, x cable problem).

That's why I asked you several questions...like CSI, the initial symptoms usually point to one or two items on a known list of problems.

This is just some help to tied you over till one of the '2x heavies' weighs in...again, I don't own one...it's shipping next week...so I am using my (limited) troubleshooting knowledge. I do own a basic 3D printer.

Are you 100% on your leveling?

 

I know on my Cube using painters tape instead of the 'glue' they supply, I can not pry a PLA print off...now I just rip the tape/part off together...it's stuck that good (but almost no residue after I peel it off)

 

Jay

 

(ps...are you 100% on your level ?)

Leveling is like the biggest thing on here that seems to be the culprit. Between warped build plates and not getting it set perfect it apparently can cause everything not to work...and your cat can go bald too.

[Jay]

Oh..

 

Like Mr. Kessner the glass on the Cube is etched very heavily.

 

Jay

[David Kessner]

Just to add a little on the leveling thing.  Watch the bot print the first layer.  When it lays down the outline of the print, the bead of filament should be quite squished/flat.  On my bot, that bead is sometimes so thin and squished that I question if it is really there at all (it turns that transparent!).  

But if the bead of filament is round, then you don't have the platform leveled good enough.  It could also be that one side of your print does get squished good, but another side doesn't.  So watch the whole first layer to make sure it is all good.

I need to say, however, that on my Rep2 I could not achieve good-enough results with tape no matter what I did.  Some things made it better, but never perfect.  Glass + Hairspray gives me perfectly flat PLA prints on the Rep2.  (Disclaimer:  I'm a perfectionist.  I know that some people don't have issues with blue tape-- although I suspect that my standards are higher than most people.)

Oh, and Aquanet #3 cleans off with just tap water!

[John Watson]

Hi all thanks for the response so Far

Plate is leveled as best as I can possibly get it ..using standard leveling techniques I even have wing commanders pressure attachment  for leveling

I am using the rep 2 .. pla only

I have the new funky groovy extruder upgrade in aluminum ,,,mmmmm

which is on sale  with lots of pre-orders already out there  plug plug

I have just ordered acrylic siding and doors which I have created ...

to see if enclosing the bot helps

what I am really asking is , is it  heat or cooling  on the rep 2 that creates warps

as I know all my settings are top notch and I was thinking of creating either a heat blower or a cooling fan   for the build plate to aleviate warping ...just not sure which  way to go yet  this is one of the  main reasons I ask 

if anyone has done more research ..as I understand the issues of blue tape hairspray and leveling ... happy printing everyone

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[Steve]

John:

If the 'warping' results in the part lifting off the plate then there are several things you can try. 

First, make sure your build plate is not warped. Then level using the standard instructions. Then level by printing a single layer part, a square or circle. and adjusting the leveling screws until the first layer is even and clearly squished onto the build plate. 

After this leveling process then add small 12mmX12mm pads to the ends of the part, or the areas where it lifts off the plate or is not sticking well. Make the pads 0.3mm thick and they easily bend off after your print is done. I have seen many parts where the only way to stop warping is to use these pads.

Steve

[Dan Ujvari]

It sounds like what David Kessner mentioned... about leveling and making sure that first layer is close enough to stick.

Is this a very large print?  Those are the only ones I've had issues with.  Luckily, I have a heated build plate and enclosed printer (holes plugged as well).  Even so, I run a hair dryer into the box while the build plate and extruder are heating up... to makes sure everything is really heat soaked, then shut her up tight.  Only then can I get a full volume build with no print/pull/curl issues at the bottom outside edges.

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[John Watson]

Hi again Not a sticking issue  its just a lifting of the edges

I do use  xtra parts as helper for sticking

and its not a build plate  or leveling issue

I am interested in the enclosing and hairdryer to keep the insides warm

I think that is going to be my next port of call :-)

[David Kessner]

Once upon a time, I thought that enclosing the bot and keeping the insides warm would help decrease warp.  And it might.  But I can tell you that my bot is not enclosed at all with a room temp of 68 deg F in the winter and I don't get warping.  

What I can also tell you is that a higher air temp inside the bot can increase other issues.  For example, a higher temp will tend to let the blue tape come off easier.  Your chances of heat-soak issues is greater.  Your chances of warping the platform arms is higher.  The chances of warping your printed extruder upgrade is higher.  (Note:  I am also speaking to those of us who don't have Aluminum Extruder Upgrades.)  

[John Watson]

mmm well

I guess I will wait for my glass plate and go from there :-)

thnx for the input everyone

[Bottleworks]

Is your experience based on ABS or PLA usage?

[John Watson]

rep 2 pla only

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:54 PM, Bottleworks <bottlew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is your experience based on ABS or PLA usage?

[Enginwiz]

I recently started to use a simple shiny glass plate coated wet-in-wet with three layers of hairspray.

Aquanet is a bit hard to get in Europe. I successfully use this Garnier Fructis Bamboo hair spray:

Yesterday I printed a big calibration block part to compare the warping to printing on tape:

Result: ZERO warping. The bottom is dead flat.

[snoflake...@gmail.com]

warping prints is really a physics problem inherent to all printeres in almost every technology at every price.

 

the pla shrinks as it cools, at a different rate than the build plate. so it naturally wants to pull away. it also shrinks bottom to top as it cools.

 

making it stick better to the build plate may actually make the problem worse, because the part might just crack instead.

 

instead, much like every other form of manufacturing, you need to take this into account and work with it rather than against it.

 

1st up, probably is a contained, temperature controlled build volume. you want to keep the whole model a uniform temperature as it prints. stratasys does this with fans redirecting the excess nozzle and motor heat around the build volume. this is tricky on a makerbot, since its not properly closed in. you also want the controlled pemperature to be as hot as possible, so that the model is shrinking as little as possible. probably just below the glass transition temperature of the pla - 60-70c or so.

 

the second thing will be a build plate with a similar expension coefficient. it doesnt have to mat exactly, because with temp control it wont be changing much. but still, something like granite that barely moves in 200C of change isnt going to do any favours when you remove the part and let it cool in the air.

 

lastly, is designing a part that accounts for all the above issues. something that perhaps has breaks in areas to take up movement, or uses a printing strategy that perhaps separates the model into zones then connects tham as the last stage in a layer.

 

think of cutting a wood board. if you slice it perfectly straight down the middle and measure, it will be warped. its not the saws fault. you need to develop a method instead that will result in a straight board.

[Dan Newman]

> the second thing will be a build plate with a similar expension
> coefficient. it doesnt have to mat exactly, because with temp control it
> wont be changing much. but still, something like granite that barely moves
> in 200C of change isnt going to do any favours when you remove the part and
> let it cool in the air.

And the build plate would benefit from not being rigidly constrained in the XY plane.
Since it is, that is one reason it crowns when heated: the directions available
for thermal expansion are constrained in the XY plane and so the strain is
relieved by escaping along the Z axis. However, there's a secondary reason
for crowning: the build plate sheds heat faster along the edges than at
the center. However, I that's a secondary effect and the constrained
motion in the XY plane is a bigger problem for these plates.

Dan

[Steve]

John:

I had a acrylic build plate made at Tap Plastics, costs $8. When you use the single layer calibration print to get things leveled, the parts stick so well I tap a Circuit Spatula with mallet to get them off. Once I got a flat Acrylic build plate, and learned to build 'ears' into the models that are long and thin, I have not had warping problems.

Steve

[Dan Newman]

On 6 Apr 2013 , at 2:30 PM, Dan Newman wrote:

>> the second thing will be a build plate with a similar expension
>> coefficient. it doesnt have to mat exactly, because with temp control it
>> wont be changing much. but still, something like granite that barely moves
>> in 200C of change isnt going to do any favours when you remove the part and
>> let it cool in the air.

Also, I've often wondered if a better approach is a heater pad of some
sort placed below a sheet of very low thermal expansion ceramic glass (e.g.,
zerodur, astrosital). It's easy enough to lap those glasses very
flat. Glass, including ceramic glasses, are poor conductors of heat.
So warmup time will be much slower. Temperature sensing from
the bottom of the heating element as is presently done with Makerbots
would need to be rethought.

But using zerodur or astrosital is most certainly overkill. The larger
RepRap community has been getting by just fine it seems with ordinary
borosillicate glass build plates above heaters (e.g., pyrex, kimex).
For example, works fine on M2s.

Dan

[John Watson]

Nice some reallly good thought patterns going on here ..:-)

I am  gearing towards almost a warming plate..that keeps a nice constant

temperature  so  first off the plastic base will have to go .. we cant have that bowing and melting on us ...then using some ceramic glass with heating pads is a good start. it wouldn't be necessary  to have it controlled by the software ,,just a good thermostat to keep a constant temperature  keeping the  pla etc warm enough so as not too curl/crown.  ..does this sound like a good possibility ???

Dan

[Dan Newman]

On 6 Apr 2013 , at 6:37 PM, John Watson wrote:

> Nice some reallly good thought patterns going on here ..:-)
> I am gearing towards almost a warming plate..that keeps a nice constant
> temperature so first off the plastic base will have to go .. we cant have
> that bowing and melting on us ...then using some ceramic glass with heating
> pads is a good start. it wouldn't be necessary to have it controlled by
> the software ,,just a good thermostat to keep a constant temperature
> keeping the pla etc warm enough so as not too curl/crown. ..does this
> sound like a good possibility ???

If you have a Rep 2, then know that while the firmware and motherboard
supports a heated build platform with PID control, the stock power supply
cannot handle it.

Dan

[Dan Newman]

But you can buy silicone heater pads from McMaster-Carr, some of the RepRap
suppliers, and other sources. Then you can pick up a PID controller from
Omron, eBay, Granger, etc. You'd have the heated bed running independently
from the bot, but it's a start.

Dan

[TobyCWoods]

I never get curling. No more shrinkage. Done.

On Friday, April 5, 2013 2:56:40 PM UTC-7, John Watson wrote:

[John Watson]

I still get a good stick but its actual warping thats occuring nothing can hold down the shrinkage as far as I can tell NATHING

I  get decent results using ears ..but man I have to use a lot of em ..and I dont like them really as they are not  a boolean so the  I have to model them into the objects which is Boriing

anyhoo glass plass doesnt really help ..plus I am worried about the weight of the glass on the arms ..time for an upgrade form mr Bottle methinks

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Ling <hongl...@gmail.com> wrote:

David,

so for your step 5, did you try hair spray again on top of the blue tape? or just hair spray on etched glass? I had a problem of warping as well. 

- Ling