One Bike Stage race

[Joseph Jefferson]

The following represents the new language regarding the usage of tt bike or the restrictions that promoters can establish regarding their usage in certain events.   TT Equipment 1M1.(h) Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-start bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the restriction is stated in the race announcement and technical guide. This includes time trials in stage races. AVC has often considered a restriction like this for the Tour of Washington County, so that we might even the playing field for the fiscally challenged members of our peletons.  With that being said, how would most you feel if we were to dis-allow tt bikes and aero bars from the tt stage of our event.  Racers could still use aero wheels and helmets, but no extentions or tt bikes.  Let me know what you think.

[Timothy Rugg]

I think this is a great idea, and I know a lot of people have been hoping for such a change.  Aero helmets are allowed for mass-starts.  The tiny little bars that Lance Lacy uses that don't extend further than his handle bars, are allowed for mass-starts.  Especially since the ToWC is based on time instead of points, it really evens the playing field.  This might even promote more entries.  I look forward to ToWC either way.

Rugg

 

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[marni harker]

I vote  ---   YES!    On 1 bike per rider stage racing.

 

Marni

[Marc Warner]

I think its a bad idea.  The sprint bonuses already "level the playing field"  --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Timothy Rugg <timot...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Timothy Rugg <timot...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[j chapmon]

We just went through this at the collegiate level.  I work with the Naval Academy Cycling team.  The A riders are permitted to use TT bikes this year and then for the 2011 season, no TT bikes at any level.  This makes sense at the collegiate level. It does not make sense to initiate a ban of all TT bikes outside colligate cycling.  Not if your reasoning is expense and leveling the competitive expense.  If the price of the TT bike is the argument, why include clip on bars to mass start bikes? If I was a bike manufacturer or a shop owner, I would be see this as unnecessary and bad for business.  It seems more fair to sub divide the men Cat 5, women Cat 4 into a TT category and non TT category.  Maybe the men cat 4 and women Cat 3s too.    Why stop at TT bikes, if expense is the reason?  Maybe there should be a limit on types of wheels and components and frame materials.  No Zipps wheels, no Durace and Sram Red...this is a slippery slope.   jerry c --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Joseph Jefferson <max4...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Timothy Rugg]

Disc wheels are allowed for mass-start races***

I think I and Joe may have approached it with reasons why instead of just a suggestion of:

 - A stage race where all stages meet mass-start regulations

Disregard the excuses and reasons of fairness and expense - and just tell Joe what you think of having a mass-start stage race.


( Marc Warner is good at TTing ;) )

[Baird Webel]

I would definitely do this...just make it very clear what is allowed and what isn't to save trouble at the start line.  I would think, under the mass start rules, that many frames sold as TT frames would still be legal as long as they have regular drop bars, no?  Or is the rule to be that a rider must ride the same bike for all the stages?

Baird

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Joseph Jefferson <max4...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[scott gibbons]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:47 AM, j chapmon <jtch...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> Why stop at TT bikes, if expense is the reason?  Maybe
>>> there should be a limit on types of wheels and components
>>> and frame materials.  No Zipps wheels, no Durace and Sram
>>> Red...this is a slippery slope.
 

no, i think you're headed the right direction....return cycling to the people!
 
best regards, sg

[chris]

Yes, yes, yes, yes this is a great idea especially if ToWC is based on time and not points. One suggestion I would make though to appease some people that would disagree disallowing TT gear is make the time trial full of climbing, where such gear is unnecessary. -Chris --- On Thu, 11/19/09, scott gibbons <gibbon...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: scott gibbons <gibbon...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race To: "MABRA-USCF" <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

[Ryan Post]

If your ‘stage’ race is actually an omnium, whereby allowing people to enter just 1 event then you may want to consider a special ‘unrestricted’ TT class so that TT specific riders can still do that one event. 

 

But it does seem like if the reasoning is to even the playing field for those who cannot afford/don’t bother with TT bikes, then RR and Crit bonuses should compensate for any TT time advantages.  Of course a good all around racer with gear still has an advantage, but shouldn’t they? Zipps are always going to give an advantage and are outside the pocketbooks of many—that is bicycle racing.

 

It’s nice to have an even field for comparison. But I’d consider no TT gear TT races more of a novelty. May as well throw in a SS class into the mix also.

 

I’d do it at our omnium if the turnout was good enough, and I have enough time to get it together.

[Phil Falconer (pfalcone)]

I’m against disallowing TT bikes; however, move the TT course from RT. 67 and have it climb up either Boonesboro Mt. Road,  Reno Monument Rd, or Zittlestown Rd where TT bikes would be moot.  Agree with Chris, there…

 

Phil

[mimi newcastle]

Mass-start bikes only is a cool idea for ToWC, Joe. Go for it.

 

Mimi

---

From: Joseph Jefferson <max4...@yahoo.com>
To: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 9:15:40 AM
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[geoffrey beaty]

I agree with this assessment as well.  If you are going to (as a promotor) penalize someone on how they spend their money, then you must do it across the board.  Just because someone spent money on a TT bike and someone else spent the same amount of money on a set of wheels, why should it be up to the promotor decide who spent their money best?  

[Greg Abbott]

I don't think disallowing TT bikes/equipment in the elite mens and womens fields is necessary. At that level, you probably have some TT equipment or at least access to some. I thought that rule was intended to make travel to big events easier, such as the Tour of Georgia TTT with no TT gear. ToWC is a great and growing event, but no one is flying in for it yet.

In the under categories, I can see the utility. A lot of competitors have not been in the sport long enough to have invested in equipment and are less likely to have teammates that can loan equipment out.

Perhaps there is a middle ground? Experiment with the no TT equipment rule in some of the categories, not in others?

[NDN LUV]

I completely disagree with this one. I think that those that have TT
bikes have an advantage, sure, but it is what it is. A TT bike
doesn't guarantee anything, but can certainly make things a bit
easier. But if I think about leveling the playing field so that it's
more even, I can't help but think about a guy I passed doing a Tri-
Relay this summer who was riding a P4. Guys who can use a TT bike to
their advantage and win are guys who are going to win no matter what
they're on. Why punish the people who are trying to get used to the
TT discipline, build up their bikes and get better at a specific
discipline of cycling? Regardless, I will be at ToWC for sure! Can't
wait to see how this plays out!

Gregg
www.districtcycling.com

On Nov 19, 10:07 am, chris <friendsbacke...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes, yes, yes, yes this is a great idea especially if ToWC is based on time and not points.
>
> One suggestion I would make though to appease some people that would disagree disallowing TT gear is make the time trial full of climbing, where such gear is unnecessary.
>
> -Chris

> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, scott gibbons <gibbons.sc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> From: scott gibbons <gibbons.sc...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race
> To: "MABRA-USCF" <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:58 AM
>

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:47 AM, j chapmon <jtchap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Why stop at TT bikes, if expense is the reason?  Maybe
> >>> there should be a limit on types of wheels and components
> >>> and frame materials.  No Zipps wheels, no Durace and Sram
> >>> Red...this is a slippery slope.
>
>  
> no, i think you're headed the right direction....return cycling to the people!
>  
> best regards, sg
>
> --
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[Heidi Goldberg]

No tt bikes!  I hate them.  Only wealthy or sponsored people who are not short can do well in tts.  Ban tt bikes forever!

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

I have an awesome tt rig. I for one wish that all races only allowed 1 bike. Try going to a stage race where you have to fly. It can really be about who has the most money. I say road race legal equipment only. It would really level the playing field. Also drug testing the top 3 finishers at every other race would also help to do this.

-keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: j chapmon <jtch...@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:47:32 -0800 (PST)

To: 'MABRA-USCF'<mabra...@googlegroups.com>; <max4...@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

In regards to omniums that allow one day racers....that's just a joke and a horrible idea. To have someone come in with fresh legs and dictate a race should not be allowed. I saw this at the french broad and the guy who showed up fresh for the road race won (he was also doped up though and got busted a month later)...

-keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Ryan Post <rpos...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:12:46 -0500

To: <timot...@gmail.com>; <jtch...@yahoo.com>

Cc: 'MABRA-USCF'<mabra...@googlegroups.com>; <max4...@yahoo.com>

Subject: RE: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[Luke Majewski]

The slippery slope argument is not really valid here, since this is not a question of creating an entire new class of restrictions, it is using an existing set of restrictions in another way.  The slippery slope appears when you begin to internally justify things like how money fits into performance in general, since money potentially means access to better food, nutrition, bikes, wheels, coaching, altitude tents, power meters, etc.  In this sense, you could begin to micro-analyze the whole sport and all sports.

However, I don't own a TT rig, and I agree with those that say that they should be allowed to be used.  Not because it is a slippery slope, but because those vying for the top spots are going to be there regardless of what equipment they have and they should be allowed to use their TT specific training to their maximum ability.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:47 AM, j chapmon <jtch...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[mike]

i don't have a strong opinion on this specific issue one way or the
other - as previously stated, the guys who were going to win the tt on
a dedicated bike will probably still win it. i'll sign up for a great
race like ToWC with or without my p3, but please find a better
rationale for excluding it than the one given. "to level the playing
field" has no place in any argument regarding restrictions in
competitive events*.

if this is the way we're going, then i could make a case for excluding
guys from any race i'm in who can climb, time-trial, or sprint.

~m

*i'll assume it's obvious i'm talking about LEGAL restrictions. it
would be very interesting to bring drug-testing to mabra and see who
suddenly doesn't start showing up.

[Rez]

In support of the idea.

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

The fact is that if you have a ton of money to spend on a disk wheelset,aero front wheel,tt frame, helmet etc, let's say at least 3000 you can improve your tt by at least a minute if not more. Its a whole lot of money for a minute but that is the differance between having a chance at the overall or not. Riders who are already sacrificing a good paying job for training hours just so they can compete at the top level can usually hardly afford a wheelset for there road bike much less a tt set up. I can think of more than a few pro teams that showed up to certain events last year and did not have tt equipment and were at a serious disadvantage and there times showed this. I say leave all the aero stuff to the one day tt specialist or tri. A road bike is cost enough! I don't see any problem at all in any stage race or omnium to be limited to road race legal equipment. It would give the youger athletes with less money more of a chance to show us what they have not what there parents could afford to buy for them. Granted supplements help but if you are using legal supplements there are none out there that will give you as much time advantage as the tt set up.

-keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Luke Majewski <luke.m...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:29:28 -0500

To: <jtch...@yahoo.com>

Cc: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>; <max4...@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[Garner Woodall]

As someone who own a TT bike, I'd say this is a good idea. I actually flew to the Valley of the Sun State Race in Arizona a couple years ago with both my road bike and my TT bike, and it was a huge pain in the ass. At least back then one of the airlines gave vouchers to USAC license holders, so the cost was not horrible, but I then had to haul two bike cases around with me while I was there. In this particular case, it worked out OK for me, but I would rather not have dealt with that. However, to do well in that race, given the course and my abilities, not taking the TT bike would have definitely changed the outcome. I think particularly in the lower categories where most riders don't have a separate TT rig, this would even things out a bit. However, I'd be very specific about what wheels you would allow. In my opinion, discs should be out as well. G. --- On Thu, 11/19/09, mike <mi...@pixelenvymedia.com> wrote:

From: mike <mi...@pixelenvymedia.com> Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race To: "MABRA-USCF" <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

[Greg Abbott]

The hastle there involves flying to races. No one is flying to ToWC (at least not yet, it would be cool if we had a premier event like that).

[dtarm...@gmail.com]

I think it's a fine idea for the lower categories--it keeps the
playing field "level" for the new folks who are just getting into the
sport and haven't had the time, money or opportunity to buy aero
equipment. But for the folks who have been racing bikes for a few
years now, let them use their TT rigs. Maybe it makes sense for the
big "travel" races where bringing an extra bike is difficult, but ToWC
isn't that, yet.

Or, do what Tour of Ephrata does and just put a big freaking hill at
the end of the TT and make people chose where they wanna make their
time.

On Nov 19, 9:57 am, Timothy Rugg <timothyr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Disc wheels are allowed for mass-start races***
>
> I think I and Joe may have approached it with reasons why instead of just a
> suggestion of:
>
>  - A stage race where all stages meet mass-start regulations
>
> Disregard the excuses and reasons of fairness and expense - and just tell
> Joe what you think of having a mass-start stage race.
>
> ( Marc Warner is good at TTing ;) )
>

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:47 AM, j chapmon <jtchap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > We just went through this at the collegiate level.  I work with the Naval
> > Academy Cycling team.  The A riders are permitted to use TT bikes this year
> > and then for the 2011 season, no TT bikes at any level.  This makes sense at
> > the collegiate level.
> > It does not make sense to initiate a ban of all TT bikes outside colligate
> > cycling.  Not if your reasoning is expense and leveling the competitive
> > expense.
> > If the price of the TT bike is the argument, why include clip on bars to
> > mass start bikes?
> > If I was a bike manufacturer or a shop owner, I would be see this as
> > unnecessary and bad for business.
> > It seems more fair to sub divide the men Cat 5, women Cat 4 into a TT
> > category and non TT category.  Maybe the men cat 4 and women Cat 3s too.
>
> > Why stop at TT bikes, if expense is the reason?  Maybe there should be
> > a limit on types of wheels and components and frame materials.  No Zipps
> > wheels, no Durace and Sram Red...this is a slippery slope.
>
> > jerry c
>

> > --- On *Thu, 11/19/09, Joseph Jefferson <max41...@yahoo.com>* wrote:

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

One thing I have always thought didn't make sense was the fact that even if you spend all the money on the fancy bike and wheels the officials limit to how you can set the bike up. Saddle tip over bottom bracket is a funny one. That has never made sense to me. I know they don't check in mabra but in the uci or pro stage races it is ridiculous watching the officials make someone change there setup because there saddle was to far forward. Or there bars to narrow.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: mike <mi...@pixelenvymedia.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:00:02
To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[busterk]

I agree with Greg Abbott's position.

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

I know a whole lot of young cat 1 riders whom, if they had the money or the rich parents, could beat those who are beating them now on there tt rigs. The more expensive you make a sport the more it will exclude others. Let's face it you can buy a rival caad 9 and not be at hardly any of a disadvantage in a mass start race compared to those who arer sitting on 8000 dollar rigs. It is not at all like that for tt's. the same is true for chuck's bike he was riding at the begining of the season. That bike weighed 26 pounds! Look at his results...

-keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "dtarm...@gmail.com" <dtarm...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:16:17
To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[Garner Woodall]

Greg. Joe Jefferson is a bad ass, so I think it's only a matter of time before TOWC gets a much higher profile status. The pain in the ass angle I shared I think applies as well to local races, just not to the same degree. If you stay in a hotel during TOWC, you gotta drag around two bikes, and what do you do with one during each stage? The flying part of VOS for me was actually less annoying than dragging to two bikes around once I got there, and to make it even harder I was rooming with the Wrob! :-) At least he only had one bike. Mostly, I wanted to highlight that at least in the case of VOS, winning that race without a TT bike for many riders would be tough (granted, that race is timed, and not on points). I'd wager there are many riders who don't go there because of the TT. Keep in mind that as a non-sprinting, non-climbing, TT bike owning weenie, I'm usually not one to reject opportunities that might favor my own circumstances. However, the arms race in TT bikes makes for a pretty uneven playing field, especially at beginner and intermediate categories. G. --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Abbott <greg....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg Abbott]

I'm not trying to flame, and welcome the day when travel consideration becomes the reason to exclude TT bikes from ToWC. I'd be fine with that.

Like I said, I get the fairness argument and believe that it would be a great experiment for the under cats.

On the other hand, it might be fun to frankenbike together something thats road legal, but would position the rider in a more aero way. It's like writing in iambic pantameter, the restrictions could inspire some real creativity.

[Zach Rogers]

The resulting outcome here will be people with TT-only "mass start" bikes.

-Zach

[Mike May]

Joe, are you asking because you're trying to gauge the impact on registration? If that's the case, eliminating TT bikes has to be the clear decision. Anyone who thinks he/she is going to win ToWC based on TT abilities likely has a TT rig. They're in the game whether they have to go mano a mano against the clock and their rivals on mass start or TT bikes.

It's not likely that someone is going to bail on ToWC because the competitive advantage afforded them through their TT bikes disappears. But it is likely that someone who can race crits or road races pretty well might suddenly aspire to win if their 60-second disadvantage to someone on a special bike evaporates. No TT bikes brings a lot of people from zero chance to at least a glimmer of hope. 

Even if it's only regional racers, restricting the use of TT bikes can only bring in more racers, can't it?

-Mike

--

Mike May

e: mi...@gamjams.net

tel: 301-648-2895

fax: 240-264-5938

@: www.gamjams.net

[Zach Rogers]

What about people who think they have a shot at a stage race because they have a TT bike?

It's just another rule. If people are going to try to buy speed, they will do so regardless of the rules. Instead of dropping cash on a TT bike, you'll see more people with Lightweight Disc's, dimpled skin suits, or what ever else the latest go-fast goodie is. By having some races that allow TT specific bikes, and others that don't, you will not decrease the "cost of speed", but increase it due to people now feeling the need to have a regular race bike, a TT specific bike, and then a "mass start legal" TT bike.

I'd be happy to see an end to the arms war, but this isn't the way to get there.

-Zach

[Sean Yeager]

Sean Yeager
Richmond, VA
csye...@gmail.com

[Timothy Rugg]

Well at least you negated the loss of business.

It seems like it's just coming down to preference.  You either want to ride your rig, or you'd like an eddy mercxx style condition.

Cool

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Zach Rogers <roger...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sean Yeager]

Ooops. Apologies for the blank message.

The way I see it, if the "rules" exist for one stage race, then people aren't going to spend thousands for an advantage. Some of the responses seem to look at it from an "all TT bikes banned from all events so I'll find some other advantage" perspective. We're talking about one race.

If the rules for one stage race are to level the playing field, then it's the promoter's right to have the rules. I think it's an interesting idea, and I think it would be an interesting experiment.

If the TT bike is going to be disallowed, why not disallow TT helmets and discs, or for that matter, any wheel depth over 30mm? I don't think skinsuits and shoe covers are substantial enough to be considered, but the big advantages would then be covered.

As long as everyone knows the rules in advance and the rules are enforced...

Sean

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Zach Rogers <roger...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Timothy Rugg]

Skinsuits are one of the biggest advantages you can have!

It's a lot easier to make a stipulation relating to a pre-determined rule.  For example, what USA qualifies permissable for a mass-start bike.

Nitpicking is where you get everyone and there mom's opinion about what is and isn't and should and shouldn't be fair/allowed/etc.

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

Agree 100 percent about disks being out.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Garner Woodall <garner...@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:12:57 -0800 (PST)

To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[Zach Rogers]

You're making this more expensive for me now! In order to be competitive at my "A" race next year, I'm going to have to buy some new 30mm carbon wheels, a "fast" non-TT helmet (BTW, where do you draw the line on a helmet being a TT helmet or not?), and probably refit my bike with electric Dura-Ace so that I can shift while in my TT position on my mass-start TT bike.

-Zach

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Sean Yeager <csye...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Timothy Rugg]

There's a USA cycling standard for TT helmets.  To get an idea of what Joe is looking for - go read the tech manual for GMSR that explains what it is the organization is thinking of trying.

BTW... I've got some 56mm Carbon Wheels I'd let go for a good deal...  How's 1,200 sound with tubes, skewers, and QR for some EC90's.. : )

[Tony Abate]

Joe - I like the idea a lot and support it being based on what is
currently allowed as a mass-start bike.

If you're in support of Joe's idea because of evening the cost-based
playing field, there's no reason to nit-pick beyond there. Aero
helmets and disc covers can be had for $100 each, shoe covers and
skinsuits for much less.

If you're in support of Joe's idea because of the performance-based
even playing field, then I think we can all agree it's a terrific step
in the right direction. Sure, guys can play around with forward saddle
placement and stem adjustments and whatnot, but ultimately we'll all
be on equal enough equipment that that discussion moves to the
background, like in mass-start races.

Those against the idea will probably remain against it, but you're
joking yourself if you think that equipment-based restrictions aren't
already largely based on providing an even performance playing field.
It's a good thing they exist, too. Things like requiring a double-
diamond frame means we're not TTing against dudes in those land speed-
record cocoon recumbents. The slippery slope goes both ways. Some
might argue it's already slipped too much towards the anything-goes
side.

Thanks,
Tony

On Nov 19, 1:41 pm, Timothy Rugg <timothyr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a USA cycling standard for TT helmets.  To get an idea of what Joe
> is looking for - go read the tech manual for GMSR that explains what it is
> the organization is thinking of trying.
>
> BTW... I've got some 56mm Carbon Wheels I'd let go for a good deal...  How's
> 1,200 sound with tubes, skewers, and QR for some EC90's.. : )
>

> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Zach Rogers <rogers.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You're making this more expensive for me now! In order to be competitive at
> > my "A" race next year, I'm going to have to buy some new 30mm carbon wheels,
> > a "fast" non-TT helmet (BTW, where do you draw the line on a helmet being a
> > TT helmet or not?), and probably refit my bike with electric Dura-Ace so
> > that I can shift while in my TT position on my mass-start TT bike.
>
> > -Zach
>

[Tom]

Let's be clear that if this is truly about money and playing field
leveling, aero wheel depth has to be limited to Open Pro depth. My
$65 wheel cover for my open pro wheel gets eliminated but someone can
ride their $2000+ Zipp 1080's? Yah.. that's level.

I'll be a dissenter and say - as a time trialer - I would not attend
ToWC if the TT bikes were eliminated. If the TT went up such that I
had to make the decision between aero/weight/etc... (ala Ephrata), it
would be one thing. but ToWC TT is a TT'ers ride. Mostly flat, and
very fast.

On Nov 19, 1:41 pm, Timothy Rugg <timothyr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's a USA cycling standard for TT helmets.  To get an idea of what Joe
> is looking for - go read the tech manual for GMSR that explains what it is
> the organization is thinking of trying.
>
> BTW... I've got some 56mm Carbon Wheels I'd let go for a good deal...  How's
> 1,200 sound with tubes, skewers, and QR for some EC90's.. : )
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Zach Rogers <rogers.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You're making this more expensive for me now! In order to be competitive at
> > my "A" race next year, I'm going to have to buy some new 30mm carbon wheels,
> > a "fast" non-TT helmet (BTW, where do you draw the line on a helmet being a
> > TT helmet or not?), and probably refit my bike with electric Dura-Ace so
> > that I can shift while in my TT position on my mass-start TT bike.
>
> > -Zach
>

> > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Sean Yeager <csyea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Ooops. Apologies for the blank message.
>
> >> The way I see it, if the "rules" exist for one stage race, then people
> >> aren't going to spend thousands for an advantage. Some of the responses seem
> >> to look at it from an "all TT bikes banned from all events so I'll find some
> >> other advantage" perspective. We're talking about one race.
>
> >> If the rules for one stage race are to level the playing field, then it's
> >> the promoter's right to have the rules. I think it's an interesting idea,
> >> and I think it would be an interesting experiment.
>
> >> If the TT bike is going to be disallowed, why not disallow TT helmets and
> >> discs, or for that matter, any wheel depth over 30mm? I don't think
> >> skinsuits and shoe covers are substantial enough to be considered, but the
> >> big advantages would then be covered.
>
> >> As long as everyone knows the rules in advance and the rules are
> >> enforced...
>
> >> Sean
>
> >>  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Timothy Rugg]

Boo the dissenter!

[Daryl Grissom]

AVC --

The problem with TT bikes in ToWC isn't the expense or hassle; it is that your stage race is time-based and not points-based.  With only three stages, the TT is given disproportionate weight to the overall outcome.  Thus, TT bikes give a disproportionate advantage.

The winner of the TT in a "three-stage stage race" is 99% certain to be the GC winner (you could check the actual results to test my hypothesis).  That is due to the time gaps he can achieve with his fitness plus top-end equipment which -- let's face it -- the TT "specialist" is likely to have.

So, my opinion is:

1. If you continue a time-based ToWC, eliminate TT bikes to level the field to get the natural selection of the strongest racer.

2. If you go back to points-based, let the TT-bikes have their day and the three events will be balanced by points.  

Either way, ensure that the strongest overall racer wins the overall classification, not the strongest TT'er with the sweetest ride.

Respectfully,

Gus.

On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Timothy Rugg wrote:

I think this is a great idea, and I know a lot of people have been hoping for such a change.  Aero helmets are allowed for mass-starts.  The tiny little bars that Lance Lacy uses that don't extend further than his handle bars, are allowed for mass-starts.  Especially since the ToWC is based on time instead of points, it really evens the playing field.  This might even promote more entries.  I look forward to ToWC either way.

Rugg

 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Joseph Jefferson <max4...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The following represents the new language regarding the usage of tt bike or the restrictions that promoters can establish regarding their usage in certain events.   TT Equipment 1M1.(h) Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-start bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the restriction is stated in the race announcement and technical guide. This includes time trials in stage races. AVC has often considered a restriction like this for the Tour of Washington County, so that we might even the playing field for the fiscally challenged members of our peletons.  With that being said, how would most you feel if we were to dis-allow tt bikes and aero bars from the tt stage of our event.  Racers could still use aero wheels and helmets, but no extentions or tt bikes.  Let me know what you think.

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[Tony Abate]

Tom brings up a good point, I believe he's correct that disc covers
are not mass-start legal, but that disc wheels are.

I'd just leave the no-discs-at-all or disc-covers-allowed call to the
promoter, either one is acceptable, while following the mass-start
guidelines exactly doesn't appear so.

> > > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org-Hide quoted text -

[Harry Fang]

Who set Joe Jefferson free???  I had to sift through 40+ emails for the past hour and missed my TT training time!

I'm all for eliminating TT bikes from the TOWC. No clip on bars either.  Of course my opinion is biased as I don't own a "Sweet" TT bike. This is great, so I don't have to buy a TT Bike this year either as I had been planning to do so this past year, however with the lack of racing time this year, I didn't. The economy didn't help either.  I do have clip-on bars and they definitely do help a bit in TT's however, people with the TT bikes definitely have an advantage as they typically are positioned properly, where the clip-on's you are almost always guesing.  I don't know how many people get bike fitted when they use clip-on's.  I think many of the masters would differ on this point of view as most of them have acquired TT bikes over the years and have been just tricking them out.  

The GC winner could be the TT winner in most cases, they are just stronger.  If you want to make it a closer race, you'd probably be better off making it a shorter TT. 

Harry

---

From: Daryl Grissom <dgri...@umd.edu>
Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 2:25:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race

[john]

What will be next ? Just box section rims in the road race ? Not
allowed to use really stiiff wheels in the crit ? The ToWC is a 3
dicipline race, If you don't have the gear, don't do the race or just
do the race and stop your whining. I'm for keeping the TT bikes in.
You can put together a TT bike for under a $1000. It won't be pretty
but, no one has ever looked pretty at the end of a TT if you push it
hard enough. I don't buy in too the " TT bikes are THAT much faster "
especially at our level. My very 1st TT was at Church Creek in 06. I
used my road bike ( didn't have a TT bike ) and I was passing guys in
full tilt TT bikes. It's the engine people at our level.
If the TT bikes are gone than the ToWC has lost it's spirit. It's not
a Tour anymore.

On Nov 19, 2:53 pm, Harry Fang <harrytf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Who set Joe Jefferson free???  I had to sift through 40+ emails for the past hour and missed my TT training time!
>
> I'm all for eliminating TT bikes from the TOWC. No clip on bars either.  Of course my opinion is biased as I don't own a "Sweet" TT bike. This is great, so I don't have to buy a TT Bike this year either as I had been planning to do so this past year, however with the lack of racing time this year, I didn't. The economy didn't help either.  I do have clip-on bars and they definitely do help a bit in TT's however, people with the TT bikes definitely have an advantage as they typically are positioned properly, where the clip-on's you are almost always guesing.  I don't know how many people get bike fitted when they use clip-on's.  I think many of the masters would differ on this point of view as most of them have acquired TT bikes over the years and have been just tricking them out.  
>
> The GC winner could be the TT winner in most cases, they are just stronger.  If you want to make it a closer race, you'd probably be better off making it a shorter TT.
> Harry
>
> ________________________________

> From: Daryl Grissom <dgris...@umd.edu>

> Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 2:25:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] One Bike Stage race
>
> AVC --
>
> The problem with TT bikes in ToWC isn't the expense or hassle; it is that your stage race is time-based and not points-based.  With only three stages, the TT is given disproportionate weight to the overall outcome.  Thus, TT bikes give a disproportionate advantage.
>
> The winner of the TT in a "three-stage stage race" is 99% certain to be the GC winner (you could check the actual results to test my hypothesis).  That is due to the time gaps he can achieve with his fitness plus top-end equipment which -- let's face it -- the TT "specialist" is likely to have.
>
> So, my opinion is:
> 1. If you continue a time-based ToWC, eliminate TT bikes to level the field to get the natural selection of the strongest racer.
> 2. If you go back to points-based, let the TT-bikes have their day and the three events will be balanced by points.  
>
> Either way, ensure that the strongest overall racer wins the overall classification, not the strongest TT'er with the sweetest ride.
>
> Respectfully,Gus.
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Timothy Rugg wrote:
>
> I think this is a great idea, and I know a lot of people have been hoping for such a change.  Aero helmets are allowed for mass-starts.  The tiny little bars that Lance Lacy uses that don't extend further than his handle bars, are allowed for mass-starts.  Especially since the ToWC is based on time instead of points, it really evens the playing field.  This might even promote more entries.  I look forward to ToWC either way.
>
>
>
>
>
> >Rugg
>

> >On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Joseph Jefferson <max41...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >The following represents the new language regarding the usage of tt bike or the restrictions that promoters can establish regarding their usage in certain events.
>
> >>TT Equipment
> >>1M1.(h) Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-start
> >>bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the restriction is stated in
> >>the race announcement and technical guide. This includes time trials in
> >>stage races.
>
> >>AVC has often considered a restriction like this for the Tour of Washington County, so that we might even the playing field for the fiscally challenged members of our peletons.  With that being said, how would most you feel if we were to dis-allow tt bikes and aero bars from the tt stage of our event.  Racers could still use aero wheels and helmets, but no extentions or tt bikes.  Let me know what you think.
>
> --
> >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
> >>To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> >>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

> >>For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> >>For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> --
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
> >To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

> >For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> >For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
> To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org- Hide quoted text -

[Luke Majewski]

There is no "what will be next", it's again an issue of using an existing set of rules.  It's not the reinvention of the wheel, it's already happening at the collegiate level.  It's not like Joe is trying to completely make stuff up as he goes along.  The "what's next" argument reminds me of people who say that we are going to be just like the USSR if we have any sort of government health plan.  It's not always a slippery slope, although it's very easy to portray it as such.

I'm still for keeping the TT bikes, though, for all the other great arguments.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[bakerh...@gmail.com]

Well I personally think the ideal thing would be no disks no tt bike but clip ons allowed. I am saying yes to the clip ons because they do make suffering a whole lot easier and they are cheap!

As far as a tt set up not making you faster it made me over 2 minutes faster over 40k. Again I have the equipment and want to use it. instead of us spending money on all the wind cheating tech stuff we should chip in a bit more for our licenses so we can have drug testing. Not just for mabra but a lot of races. I feel certain that this would be the best thing for our sport.

Anyways its time to start riding the tt rig.

-keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Luke Majewski <luke.m...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:13:44 -0500

To: <jjms...@hotmail.com>

Cc: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[mimi newcastle]

Best thing for the sport at any level would be riders to race clean, rather than spending $$ on drug testing.

 I think Joe's got a nice idea for simplifying life for ToWC - forget the monetary arguments, just not schlepping 2 bikes has merit.  Live on the edge and embrace change - not like you're being asked to give up an ultra-light carbon frame or clipless pedals (which would be truly Eddy Mercxx style).  ;-)

 

Mimi

---

From: "bakerh...@gmail.com" <bakerh...@gmail.com>
To: luke.m...@gmail.com; jjms...@hotmail.com
Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 4:27:42 PM

[Russell Allison]

Soon, those of us with pretty faces will have to wear ugly masks at races so we're no prettier than the person deemed ugliest by the UCI.

 

This just serves to stifle the advancement of cycling technology and to put a big income dent in bicycle manufacturing at a time when they can least afford it. We might as well just inter-nationalize bicycle manufacturing and all ride the same dull cookie-cutter bike from the same state-controlled manufacturer. Better yet, lets promote cycling in the USA to the point where we're setting the rules instead of being slave to the UCI socialists. 

Russ

 

 

---

From: Luke Majewski <luke.m...@gmail.com>

To: jjms...@hotmail.com
Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 4:13:44 PM

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[john]

Ahmen

On Nov 19, 4:39 pm, Russell Allison <russ.alli...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Soon, those of us with pretty faces will have to wear ugly masks at races so we're no prettier than the person deemed ugliest by the UCI.
>
> This just serves to stifle the advancement of cycling technology and to put a big income dent in bicycle manufacturing at a time when they can least afford it. We might as well just inter-nationalize bicycle manufacturing and all ride the same dull cookie-cutter bike from the same state-controlled manufacturer. Better yet, lets promote cycling in the USA to the point where we're setting the rules instead of being slave to the UCI socialists. 
>
> Russ
>
> ________________________________

> From: Luke Majewski <luke.majew...@gmail.com>
> To: jjmst...@hotmail.com

> Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 4:13:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race
>
> There is no "what will be next", it's again an issue of using an existing set of rules.  It's not the reinvention of the wheel, it's already happening at the collegiate level.  It's not like Joe is trying to completely make stuff up as he goes along.  The "what's next" argument reminds me of people who say that we are going to be just like the USSR if we have any sort of government health plan.  It's not always a slippery slope, although it's very easy to portray it as such.
>
> I'm still for keeping the TT bikes, though, for all the other great arguments.
>

> >> For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org-Hide quoted text -

[Michael Homick]

IMHO, I think AVC should purchase 125 identical "mass start" bikes to issue to racers for the entire stage race.  That way everyone would have bikes that would have the same weight, aero profile, cornering abitlity, etc. That would level the playing field, ensure that the strongest rider wins, and would be a boon to the bicycle manufacturer who got the contract.  Yes, that's the ticket! 

---

From: Russell Allison <russ.a...@verizon.net>
To: luke.m...@gmail.com; jjms...@hotmail.com
Cc: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 4:39:27 PM

[JT OM]

Pretty much every coherent argument for banning TT bikes from a stage race could be made for banning TT bikes from single day time trial events.

Every good time trial rider I know doesn't waste their money on a TT bike yet they still beat most/all of the "TT specialists" that spend thousands of dollars on bikes that allow someone to gain minutes on guys riding regular bikes with a clip-on aero bar. 

Most of the TT machines you see at local events would not even come close to meeting current UCI regulations and TT bikes are dangerously difficult to handle but that doesn't keep certain jack-asses off of them on every group ride or at Hains Point the week before District Time Trial.

This is a useless thread.  The best observation made is Keck's.  I have never understood why we don't drug test at the amateur level of this sport and I have never believed that cost was the issue.

Furthermore, I would have much preferred to see 100 comments in response to Lew Strader's post.  People have died at TTs in our district and I have always felt that we do not do enough to hold ourselves accountable when it comes to having proper medical support at many local events.

-Justin

---

From: mi...@gamjams.net
To: mabra...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:54:30 -0500

[Tom]

Actually, this last year the 1/2/3 and cat 3 winners were not the TT
winners - and the cat 3 guy didn't have a slicked up TT rig (not to
mention he was puking the morning of the TT, right Tim?)

Last year (omnium scoring) the cat 3 was not the TT winner and the
1/2/3 rider was Cannell that also placed 2nd and 3rd in the other two
stages - so it's not like the one stage won the race.

Just want to point out for those that think the TT bike makes the
difference - if you don't have a TT bike in a TT setup, you probably
don't appreciate the amount of time the TT specialists spend on those
bikes, in those positions, adapting. It's not like they just sit on
the bike and go fast.

On Nov 19, 2:25 pm, Daryl Grissom <dgris...@umd.edu> wrote:
> AVC --
>
> The problem with TT bikes in ToWC isn't the expense or hassle; it is  
> that your stage race is time-based and not points-based.  With only  
> three stages, the TT is given disproportionate weight to the overall  
> outcome.  Thus, TT bikes give a disproportionate advantage.
>
> The winner of the TT in a "three-stage stage race" is 99% certain to  
> be the GC winner (you could check the actual results to test my  
> hypothesis).  That is due to the time gaps he can achieve with his  
> fitness plus top-end equipment which -- let's face it -- the TT  
> "specialist" is likely to have.
>
> So, my opinion is:
> 1. If you continue a time-based ToWC, eliminate TT bikes to level the  
> field to get the natural selection of the strongest racer.
> 2. If you go back to points-based, let the TT-bikes have their day and  
> the three events will be balanced by points.
>
> Either way, ensure that the strongest overall racer wins the overall  
> classification, not the strongest TT'er with the sweetest ride.
>
> Respectfully,
> Gus.
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Timothy Rugg wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think this is a great idea, and I know a lot of people have been  
> > hoping for such a change.  Aero helmets are allowed for mass-

> > starts.  The tiny little bars that Lance Lacy uses that don't extend  

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> > Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[Nathan Wilson]

I think that Joe Jefferson setting up the race based on time this year was a
very good step. Real stage races are run on time not points, just because
it is 3 stages is not a reason for it to be run on points. This just puts
pressure on racers to figure out ways to get their time, if they can't get
it in the TT...this is bike racing. Bike racing is supposed to be difficult
and a struggle to figure out how to win...if everything is equalized it is
not a real bike race...not meant to be taken as against equalizing the TT
with mass start bikes, but trying to equalize the GC by making it on points
instead of time like a real GC race is not a good idea in my opinion.

[Garner Woodall]

Running a stage race on time is a big way to increase its profile. If nothing else, there is the issue of overall classification in points races not qualifying for upgrades. There are not many stage races done on time, so those that do are often magnets for people looking for upgrade points. Half the reason for the Valley of the Sun's popularity is early season upgrade points. The other is escape from sucky weather in February. That said, the time differences have the potential to be much more influential in the outcome of such a race. Hence the idea of a road bike only time trial is I think a good one to keep TT tech weenies somewhat at bay. The true TT specialists will still do well, but they won't likely put as much time into their competitors. Again, I like bringing out my TT bike, and there are not that many chances in the year to do it. There seem to be an increasing number of TTs around here, but still not that many. I think doing without for one stage race is not a big deal. G. --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nathan Wilson <nate1...@verizon.net> wrote:

From: Nathan Wilson <nate1...@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[Ken]

Should we also eliminate sport trainers?  They also give an unfair advantage, Thanks CVE!  Life's not fair, accept it and move on.

Ken

If you are going to be stupid, you better be tough 

[Keck Baker]

Ken your not tuff!
Lol

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "Ken" <kpk...@embarqmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:50:54 -0500

To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

[Keck Baker]

Yeah DRUG TESTING is not hardly done at the pro races. Hmmm don't know why in a sport that says its trying to clean up. Always random testing to. Why test some random guy. Why not test the top 3 not a random selection. Don't test the guy that got dropped? Makes no sense.

I for one am tired of training hard and having guys willing to risk organ failure having some kind of edge. Well we going to start testing? We need to really ask why more testing is not done at the pro level and why it is usually a random test. Do we want a clean sport or not? It is that simple. If the american amatuer association can get it right and afford it why not usa cycling?

Keck

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: JT OM <jo...@hotmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:41:08 -0500

To: <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: RE: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[James R Wilson]

At Nationals U19 and high-level qualifiers, they test top 3 (or deeper) and random. -- Jim

Jim Wilson
jamesr...@gmail.com
http://images.jamesrwilson.com
http://www.ncvc.net/juniors
703.532.0658 H
571.239.6772 C

[Spencer Beckett]

Are you also going to institute a 'One Position' rule? Roughly 80 to 90
percent of the advantage a time trial bike provides is a direct result
of the change in position.

An enterprising rider could, with a little bit of effort, adjust their
position, achieving nearly the same benefits that a time trial bike affords.

An innovative rider could go so far as to change out a number of their
components (as long as they meet the 'mass start' criteria) to very
nearly duplicate their time trial bike position and still fall within
the intent of the 'One Bike' rule.

Spencer

Joseph Jefferson wrote:
> The following represents the new language regarding the usage of tt bike
> or the restrictions that promoters can establish regarding their usage
> in certain events.
>
> TT Equipment
> 1M1.(h) Time trial events may restrict the competitors to mass-start
> bicycles in one or more classes, provided that the restriction is stated in
> the race announcement and technical guide. This includes time trials in
> stage races.
> AVC has often considered a restriction like this for the Tour of
> Washington County, so that we might even the playing field for the
> fiscally challenged members of our peletons. With that being said, how
> would most you feel if we were to dis-allow tt bikes and aero bars from
> the tt stage of our event. Racers could still use aero wheels and
> helmets, but no extentions or tt bikes. Let me know what you think.
>
>

[Keck Baker]

Yeah that's awesome they do that there

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: James R Wilson <jamesr...@gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:33:12 -0500

To: <bakerh...@gmail.com>; MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

[fabsroman]

Put a weight limit on the bikes in the road race too, so that you can
help the fiscally challenged. While you are at it, maybe we should ban
deep dish aero wheels for the crits like Zipp 404's and 808's, and
their counterparts in Reynolds, Campy, Lightweight, etc. I hear those
can be pretty pricey too and they can really help a rider's results.

I think you get my drift on how I feel about TT bikes being banned
from a TT of a stage race.

I hated it when TT bikes first came out in the 80's and I couldn't
afford one, especially when other juniors rolled to the line with
them. However, that is life. The more fiscally challenged might also
work less hours than me, and therefore they can spend more time on the
bike training for the event. Life just isn't fair now, is it.

If you want to make things even more even, how about limiting the
number of entries per team per category.

You should see if you could start a poll on this.

[fabsroman]

I just knew somebody would have to bring up government health care in
this thread, and it did not take long.

No, there is a "what's next". It might not be in the rulebook now,
just like I'm pretty sure this TT bike rule was put into the rule book
at some point. Hence, it is always possible to put something in the
rulebook disallowing certain types of equipment. The UCI uses a 15 lb.
bike weight limit. Do we enforce that rule at our races? I have yet to
see anybody's bike get weighed at the end of a race. How about putting
such a rule in place, especially for races like Coppi, Page Valley,
the road race at ToWC. We all know that light bikes cost a lot more
than the heavier ones and weight matters when climbing. So, the same
issue applies there. The fiscally challenged will not be able to
afford the lightest bike around, just like the fiscally challenged
might not be able to afford a TT bike or every little aero gadget for
a TT bike. Heck, some of the best racers might not be able to afford
to even get to the race this cycling season, and some might not be
able to afford a hotel room while others might. Wouldn't a good
night's sleep be an unfair advantage too.

Yeah, there is a rule in place, but it doesn't mean I have to like it,
and if it is optional it doesn't sound like it is much of a rule.

I really hope these posts of mine make it to this thread and don't get
zapped. Joe, do you still have the keys? LOL

On Nov 19, 4:13 pm, Luke Majewski <luke.majew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is no "what will be next", it's again an issue of using an existing
> set of rules.  It's not the reinvention of the wheel, it's already happening
> at the collegiate level.  It's not like Joe is trying to completely make
> stuff up as he goes along.  The "what's next" argument reminds me of people
> who say that we are going to be just like the USSR if we have any sort of
> government health plan.  It's not always a slippery slope, although it's
> very easy to portray it as such.
>
> I'm still for keeping the TT bikes, though, for all the other great
> arguments.
>

> > > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org-Hide quoted

[Keck Baker]

I have always been for a rider per team rider entry limit. One problem with thius though is it would hurt promoters I think at the local races (not all). Nrc usually does an 8 rider limit and sometimes 6.

-k

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: fabsroman <fabs...@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:59:43
To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: One Bike Stage race

[Jim Patton]

FYI, the rules process isn't driven by evil minded people at USA Cycling!
The rules process is driven by YOU, the members. You tell people like me
what you want and we try to do the correct thing.

There have been rules proposed every year to tighten our bicycle
requirements to meet the UCI levels. The UCI rules apply to all bicycles
in all events; and you don't get to pick which part of the rule you want
to impose. And the UCI rules are a moving target that can shift at any
minute (did you read about the handlebar ratio rule earlier this year?).
While imposing the UCI restrictions would be great for the economy, I've
always had the sense that it would be bad for our members pocket books.
Thus we have limited the application of UCI bike regulations to a few high
level events. If I've been incorrect in my assumption and you all need
excuses to buy new bikes, please let me know and I'll make sure that the
Trustees reconsider universal application of UCI bike regulations in the
2011 rule -- (individually please, not another mongo thread).

Jim
---
Jim Patton
301-332-3358 - cell
410-721-7650 (evenings before 9)

[Wilcox II, Barry E LCDR NNMC]

Stand by, Russ. I hear the next stop on the U.S. government take-over train
will, indeed, be the nationalization of the cycling industry, from
manufacturing to racing rules and regs, and we'll be taxed thru the nose if
we don't buy and ride the cookie-cutter bike you mention (and enjoy it!).
;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Allison [mailto:russ.a...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 4:39 PM
To: luke.m...@gmail.com; jjms...@hotmail.com
Cc: MABRA-USCF

Russ


________________________________

<http://www.mabra.org/>

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> >For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

<http://www.mabra.org/>

<http://www.mabra.org/>

[recycler]

There are several aspects to this:
(1) riding a tt bike requires some special skill in contorting the
body into a position that it really doesn't want to be in. Riders
spend time perfecting that skill, and there are not a lot of
opportunities to reap the rewards for that. So, giving them a chance
to get some credit in an omnium for that seems not unreasonable.
(2) most riders in serious contention to win are likely to have access
to tt gear of one type or another.
(3) the vast majority of TWC participants are local, so the airline
shipping costs for a 2d bike, which can add $350 to the race expense
(which makes banning tt bikes at Green Mountain a more reasonable
idea) don't apply.
(4) having tt bikes at TwC makes it more like TdF :-)
In my view, the only cats where it makes some sense to eliminate tt
bikes are the entry level races, cat 5 man, cat 4 woman, and perhaps
juniors. I don't even recall whether these apply to TWC.
Thanks again for putting this great event on our calendar!
-Ad

[Ken Woodrow]

I agree completely.  One of the reasons I like the race so much is the opportunity to use my TT gear and hone my TT skills.  I would be less likely to do the race if TT bikes were not allowed.

- Ken

[Rob Leach]

I completely agree with this.  I work on my TT skills and train on my TT bike so would like to have the opportunity to test myself in that discipline whenever I can.    Something else to mention, the RR and Crit courses at ToWC are no pieces of cake so a TT "specialist" (do those exist in amateur racing :) is not guarenteed a GC win.    Add a lap to the RR, that will level the playing field (or would that give the climbers an advantage? :-). --- On Fri, 11/20/09, recycler <b...@nih.gov> wrote:

[Tom]

Another alternative that another rider and I debated - I think is more
likely to "neutralize" the TT advantages is to move the TT to Saturday
morning and the road race to Sunday. This will more "call out" the TT
guys and force them to do more than just "sit in" for the Crit. This
is done at Millersburg with great success, I think - though their road
race course is much less selective than ToWC.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[Larry Byvik]

10 year old Giant TCR 1 Frame and Fork           $100

Cheapo aluminum TT bar setup  (ebay)              $75

Various groupo pieces and parts                        $Free (at least they were laying around from older bikes

Dura ace Bar end shifters (ebay)                       $50

Disc Cover                                                       $65

Regular race wheels                                         Cost built in

Seatpost and saddle          (ebay)                      $75

 

Less than $500 and I have a perfectly servicable TT bike.

 

The legs still need to do 95% of the work

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

For general MABRA information, go to http://www.mabra.org

--
LRB
Its about the Tan Lines!
"
    _ o
  - \ ~
(  ) / (  )

[Tom GMS]

To continue beating the dead horse...

If you're going to ban TT bikes on account of cost, why not ban deep-
section carbon wheels in the mass-start stages?

*My entire TT rig cost me less than a pair of new Zipp 808s.*


Really this would just bias the TT stage towards those who had the
time and spare parts to put drop bars on their TT frameset, probably
along with a pair of high-cost deep-section carbon wheels.