USADA Testing

[jared nieters]

XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in a sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at least one local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would support this effort.

It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around $5000.

If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative, and would sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.

Jared Nieters



Haymarket Bicycles
703 754 1911
haymarke...@hotmail.com
www.haymarketbicycles.com

 

[WCus...@aol.com]

maybe I'm naive, and I realize that you guys play in different sandboxes from most of us, but is there really a need for this?  speaking for myself, if anyone in the Cat 3/Masters ranks is doping, and there may be, I think it's just pathetic, but it's not worth getting all worked up over.  They can have the $50 or whatever in prize money.

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775
703-524-7610 (fax)
wcus...@aol.com

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
For general MABRA information, go to http://www.mabra.org

[mull.s...@gmail.com]

I believe doping in the US, at any level, impacts our sport in a very significant and negative way. While it may simply be sad and pathetic at certain levels of racing, it also impacts the cycling culture and perpetuates an awful part of this sport.

Jared, thanks to you and your team for taking the initiative.

-Stephen

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: WCus...@aol.com

Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:18:39 EST

To: <jaredn...@hotmail.com>; <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: wcus...@aol.com

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing

[Jodi Grant]

Last week while riding to work I was nearly run over by an aggressive driver who proceeded to give me the finger as she nearly knocked me over.  I wrote to the DC and VA police asking them to keep her license on file in case the next cyclist wasn’t so lucky.

 

The DC police left me a very nice message but said that

1)       DC, MD and VA do NOT share any information about reckless drivers

2)      There is no list or records kept of aggressive drivers that are reported

3)      My only recourse would have been to call 911 –

 

Does anyone know if MABRA could begin keeping a spread sheet of aggressive drivers on our web site.  We cyclists could enter date, time and license as well as our own name and email and then if any of these drivers hits a cyclist there would be a record.  It might be interesting to also see if several of the same drivers came up time after time.

[briansacawa]

I think the subject header got changed in the last post.

[WCus...@aol.com]

I really am not trying to start a flame war but think we should discuss what exactly is the initiative. 

$5K is a lot of money.  That would be for one event?  And would it be advertised? or random? 

Seems to me a one time thing wouldn't accomplish a whole lot. 

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775
703-524-7610 (fax)
wcus...@aol.com

 

[Martin Austermuhle]

Speaking personally here, I'd be curious what the motivation is for
this. Fine, pro cycling as a whole has had its share of doping
scandals, but I'm not totally sure how seriously it has filtered down
to our level. (I'd love to hear thoughts on this; I'm a mediocre Cat 3
racer at best, and I think my results speak for themselves when it
comes to any allegations about doping.) And even if it has, a one-time-
a-season stand against doping doesn't really speak volumes about our
commitment to racing clean.

Also not trying to start a flame war here, just trying to dig into the
issue a little bit more. If it were free, I'd be more than happy to
turn over any amount of urine and blood to prove that the most I have
running through my system pre-race is last night's beers. But $5,000
for a one-time test is steep, even if we all go in on it together.

On Jan 31, 9:33 am, WCusm...@aol.com wrote:
> I really am not trying to start a flame war but think we  should discuss
> what exactly is the initiative.  
> $5K is a lot of money.  That would be for one event?  And would  it be
> advertised? or random?  
> Seems to me a one time thing wouldn't accomplish a whole lot.
>
> William M.  Cusmano, Esq.
> William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> 2000 N 14th Street,  #210
> Arlington, VA 22201
> 703-527-1775
> 703-524-7610  (fax)

> wcusm...@aol.com  

>
> In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:23:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>

> mull.step...@gmail.com writes:
>
> I  believe doping in the US, at any level, impacts our sport in a very  
> significant and negative way. While it may simply be sad and pathetic at  
> certain levels of racing, it also impacts the cycling culture and perpetuates  an
> awful part of this sport.
>
> Jared, thanks to you and your team for  taking the initiative.
>
> -Stephen
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry  

> ____________________________________

>
> From: WCusm...@aol.com
> Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:18:39 EST
> To: <jaredniet...@hotmail.com>;  <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> ReplyTo: wcusm...@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing
>
> maybe I'm naive, and I realize that you guys play in different sandboxes  
> from most of us, but is there really a need for this?  speaking for  myself,
> if anyone in the Cat 3/Masters ranks is doping, and there may be, I  think
> it's just pathetic, but it's not worth getting all worked up over.   They can
> have the $50 or whatever in prize money.
>
> William M.  Cusmano, Esq.
> William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> 2000 N 14th Street,  #210
> Arlington, VA 22201
> 703-527-1775
> 703-524-7610  (fax)

> wcusm...@aol.com  

>
> In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:12:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>

> jaredniet...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> XO  Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in a  
> sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at least one  local
> race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would support  this
> effort.  
>
> It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around  $5000.
>
> If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative, and  would
> sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact  me.
>
> Jared Nieters
>
> Haymarket Bicycles
> 703 754  1911

> haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the  Google Groups
> "MABRA-USCF" group.
> To post to this group, send email to  mabra...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  
> mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this  group at

> _http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en_(http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en)
> For  general MABRA information, go to _http://www.mabra.org_
> (http://www.mabra.org/)

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the  Google Groups
> "MABRA-USCF" group.
> To post to this group, send email to  mabra...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  
> mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group  at

> _http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en_(http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en)
> For  general MABRA information, go to _http://www.mabra.org_
> (http://www.mabra.org/)  

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the  Google Groups
> "MABRA-USCF" group.
> To post to this group, send email to  mabra...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  
> mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group  at

> _http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en_(http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en)
> For  general MABRA information, go to _http://www.mabra.org_
> (http://www.mabra.org/)

[Adam Driscoll]

Another thing to think about is riders not having TUE's completed.

 

Since I take insulin for being a type 1 diabetic it is required of me and is on the banned substance, i need to fill out this form.

 

Some information about TUE will have to be given out.

 

Adam

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
For general MABRA information, go to http://www.mabra.org

--
www.adventuresforthecure.com
Anything is Possible

[scott gibbons]

I think Bill's point bears some consideration beyond the questions he posed.  Simply announcing that you're going to test at one particular event produces a self-selection effect: if you're doping and don't wist to be caught, you just skip that event.  and then the resulting negative test doesn't really achieve the desired result and resources you've allocated to answer the question aren't put to good use.  Is there are a concern that doping is pervasive?  If so, you'd likely want to test whole fields.  Is there a concern that doping is affecting the outcome of events?  If so, you'd want to focus your limited resources on testing the top three or five or seven in quite a few events.  the more you think about this, the more sense some aspects of the current system (i.e. randomized timing of tests and rider selection) make, and the less sense some other aspects make.  hey, if it was easy, someone would have already figured it out by now, eh?

[Ringer]

It may be a noble sentiment, but the fundamental return on investment
is questionable.

> > wcusm...@aol.com

>
> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:23:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > mull.step...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > I believe doping in the US, at any level, impacts our sport in a very
> > significant and negative way. While it may simply be sad and pathetic at
> > certain levels of racing, it also impacts the cycling culture and
> > perpetuates an awful part of this sport.
>
> > Jared, thanks to you and your team for taking the initiative.
>
> > -Stephen
>
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

> > ------------------------------
> > *From: *WCusm...@aol.com
> > *Sender: *mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > *Date: *Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:18:39 EST
> > *To: *<jaredniet...@hotmail.com>; <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> > *ReplyTo: *wcusm...@aol.com
> > *Subject: *Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing

>
> > maybe I'm naive, and I realize that you guys play in different sandboxes
> > from most of us, but is there really a need for this?  speaking for myself,
> > if anyone in the Cat 3/Masters ranks is doping, and there may be, I think
> > it's just pathetic, but it's not worth getting all worked up over.  They can
> > have the $50 or whatever in prize money.
>
> > William M. Cusmano, Esq.
> > William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> > 2000 N 14th Street, #210
> > Arlington, VA 22201
> > 703-527-1775
> > 703-524-7610 (fax)

> > wcusm...@aol.com

>
> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:12:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > jaredniet...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> > XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in a
> > sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at least one
> > local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would support this
> > effort.
>
> > It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around $5000.
>
> > If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative, and would
> > sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.
>
> > Jared Nieters
>
> > Haymarket Bicycles
> > 703 754 1911

> > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.com

> >www.haymarketbicycles.com
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org

>
> >  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[charles hutcheson]

"It may be a noble sentiment, but the fundamental return on investment

is questionable." Thanks Shakespeare, but I can't believe there is a
debate about getting some kind of drug testing going! At least at a
grass root, beginning type thing. USA Cycling is not doing it and
MABRA does not feel like it is there job, so why don't we take it upon
ourselves to get it started? Adam, you need to be filling out TUEs
anyway if you are racing elite and using medication on the list.

[Ringer]

You are welcome Charles.

But seriously, basic questions about the cost/benefit of implementing
a grassroots anti-doping program, which would also require a non-
trivial investment by the whole community, should be expected. If you
can't address the questions in a open and direct manner, maybe the
idea isn't ready for prime time.

-Matt






On Jan 31, 11:15 am, charles hutcheson <charleshutche...@gmail.com>

> >> > For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org-Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[stephen michael]

I would go with the Tipper Gore / PMRC route and say that value is limitless with the younger kids. Look at all of the 18 - 23 year old kids coming out of the MABRA area who are probably not super sure what the guys finishing a little bit in front of them are doing and could be convinced one way or another. I think if they knew that the fastest guys beating them in the races are clean, they would know that they too could be that fast while being clean. It could put a few minds at ease that are mold able.
Awesome.

steevo

[WCus...@aol.com]

look, it's not as if any of us questioning this are opposed to the concept of riding clean.  we're just asking questions.

$5K gets us what, is the question?  Jared obviously has looked into it, and Chuck supports it.  So, what does $5K get us?  if it's for one race, that would probably represent $10 from every rider who raced that day.  How many would be tested?  what would be the protocol?

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775
703-524-7610 (fax)

wcus...@aol.com

[Jones]

All the funds do not need to be raised during one race. Testing is a
good idea! Cool to see a 2011 Tour (Bahamas) winner supporting this.

> haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com

[WCus...@aol.com]

no, all of the funds do not need to come from one race, but the $10 per head figure was floated to give some perspective to the number to test one race.  I assume we're not talking about testing everyone from the one race, either.  top three?  five?  ten? 

the idea may have merit.  it's just hard to know at this point until we learn more about what is the proposal.

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775
703-524-7610 (fax)
wcus...@aol.com

 

[James McNeely]

I don't mind getting blocked, pushed, cut off, or bumped going into a
corner. That's racing, not cheating. For us hobbyists, racing is
awesome because we can be hardnosed and unstintinting competitors, but
it's all good at the end of the day. When the race ends we can have
some laughs about it, we keep it in perspective and go to work Monday,
with sore legs but a little healthier and happier and looking forward
to the next race.

Doping corrodes what is good though. Dopers rob honors from people
who have earned them, and they betray the agreement we have with each
other to go all out, but to play fairly, honorably. Doping is
corrosive; how many of us now cringe and wonder each July how long the
latest TdF winner will hold onto his title? Like broken windows
policing, this idea is about our improving our neighborhood and our
local culture, and about us not giving in to cynicism and
hoplelessness. If you give into those feelings that it doesn't much
matter what we do, then the dopers win. You don't give up on a climb
just because it's hard - so if we have the opportunity to fight
doping, we should grasp it. This sounds like a good idea, and props
to Jared for raising it.

The deterent value of nabbing some cheat who has been betraying the
rest of us might be worthwhile, as would proving (as Chuck noted) the
general integrity of our local racing scene - something I am pretty
confident about. For it to be effective, any one-time test would
probably need to be a surprise test (if permitted under USAC / USADA
rules) and as many people as possible at a large event should be
required to take the test.

Adam is also correct - some counseling on getting TUEs is probably in
order, particularly for those of us in the wheezing, creaking masters
ranks who are legitimately reliant on pharmaceuticals.

Jim M

[Alexander Meller]

For those following the Joe Papp client list story (it shows up in Cyclingnews.com and velownews every now and then), his client list included 187 US-based atheletes, including many cyclists.  Further, as per the Velonews article at: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/sources-anti-doping-authorities-preparing-cases-against-up-to-two-dozen-domestic-racers_140460

"Anywhere from 15 to 25 masters, elite and pro cyclists have been notified of non-analytical violations as a result of having allegedly conspired with Papp, sources said. The names will not be announced publicly until and unless the individual cases are resolved against the riders."

One of the riders already suspended was a domestic pro, but he was a cat 3 when he first became a Joe Papp customer.  See: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/usada-suspends-chodroff-for-two-years-for-epo-possession_141059.

So it seems that there are amateur riders using (or who have used) PEDs at the local level.

I expect that as USA Cycling takes action against other Joe Papp customers, we will be reading about more amateur racers being suspended, and some of them may be within MABRA.

It would be nice if there was some testing at the local level to catch potential cheaters, and to help us believe that everyone is racing clean.

However, I don't know that testing some riders at once race, and particularly in announcing the testing ahead of time, is going to establish much.  Anyone using PEDs will be for-warned  and will either skip the race or stop taking the PEDs long enough for them to disappear from their blood and urine.

Alexander "Ali" Meller

Alexander "Ali" Meller

[scweatherly]

While I applaud the sentiment for testing, as a novice I question the
necessity. Excuse my pessimism, but if the team likely to comprise
the majority of every elite field wants testing, why do they not
implement an internal program? I think there are more pressing things
to devote money to within MABRA such as results scoring, ref
recruitment/retention and race promotion. I would have to question
the way we promote our sport if every beginner has to get a TUE for
nasal spray in one of the worst allergy hot spots in the nation.

I would support this proposal if it is funded proportionally by the
interested teams and those who have former violators riding for them.

Stephen Weatherly

[jared]

Everyone complains about doping in cycling, and so many people wear
the "Dopers Suck" socks, so why not do something about it? This is a
great opportunity for us to set a new standard. Jim McNeely's quote
that it would elevate "the general integrity of our local racing
scene" is a great.

I'd like to clarify a few points here:

Funding
Within 6 hours we've got commitment from individuals and teams both in
and outside of MABRA covering 25% of the goal. Our program is
committing $500.

We'd like for this to be a collective effort. We're hoping to have
some other clubs co-sponsor a formal request for additional funding
from MABRA.

USADA offers 5 tests for an estimated cost of $4781 and 10 tests
$6331.


Protocol
Once the money is raised, everything would be handed off to a third
party to ensure no conflict of interest. Obviously, the testing would
be random and the date would be a surprise.


Amateur Doping
This was already addressed, but people need to read the stories and be
prepared for the Joe Papp story to play out. But here is a quick
search from the last few months.
Cat 3 Doper
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chodroff-admits-to-epo-purchase-and-use
Masters Doper from Michigan
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/11/news/michigan-masters-racer-suspended-for-epo-use_150854
Masters Doper
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/williams-admits-to-doping-positive

> For those following the Joe Papp client list story (it shows up in
> Cyclingnews.com and velownews every now and then), his client list included
> 187 US-based atheletes, including many cyclists.  Further, as per the

> Velonews article at:http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/sources-anti-doping-autho...

>
> "Anywhere from 15 to 25 masters, elite and pro cyclists have been notified
> of non-analytical violations as a result of having allegedly conspired with
> Papp, sources said. The names will not be announced publicly until and
> unless the individual cases are resolved against the riders."
>
> One of the riders already suspended was a domestic pro, but he was a cat 3

> when he first became a Joe Papp customer.  See:http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/usada-suspends-chodroff-f...
> .

>
> So it seems that there are amateur riders using (or who have used) PEDs at
> the local level.
>
> I expect that as USA Cycling takes action against other Joe Papp customers,
> we will be reading about more amateur racers being suspended, and some of
> them may be within MABRA.
>
> It would be nice if there was some testing at the local level to catch
> potential cheaters, and to help us believe that everyone is racing clean.
>
> However, I don't know that testing some riders at once race, and
> particularly in announcing the testing ahead of time, is going to establish
> much.  Anyone using PEDs will be for-warned  and will either skip the race
> or stop taking the PEDs long enough for them to disappear from their blood
> and urine.
>
> Alexander "Ali" Meller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 11:58 AM, <WCusm...@aol.com> wrote:
> >  look, it's not as if any of us questioning this are opposed to the
> > concept of riding clean.  we're just asking questions.
> > $5K gets us what, is the question?  Jared obviously has looked into it, and
> > Chuck supports it.  So, what does $5K get us?  if it's for one race, that
> > would probably represent $10 from every rider who raced that day.  How many
> > would be tested?  what would be the protocol?
>
> > William M. Cusmano, Esq.
> > William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> > 2000 N 14th Street, #210
> > Arlington, VA 22201

> > 703-527-1775 <tel:+17035271775>
> > 703-524-7610 <tel:+17035247610> (fax)
> > wcusm...@aol.com
>

> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 11:44:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > xstee...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > I would go with the Tipper Gore / PMRC route and say that value is
> > limitless with the younger kids. Look at all of the 18 - 23 year old kids
> > coming out of the MABRA area who are probably not super sure what the guys
> > finishing a little bit in front of them are doing and could be convinced one
> > way or another. I think if they knew that the fastest guys beating them in
> > the races are clean, they would know that they too could be that fast while
> > being clean. It could put a few minds at ease that are mold able.
> > Awesome.
> > steevo

> >> > >> > 703-527-1775 <tel:+17035271775>
> >> > >> > 703-524-7610 <tel:+17035247610> (fax)

> >> > >> > 703-527-1775 <tel:+17035271775>
> >> > >> > 703-524-7610 <tel:+17035247610> (fax)

> >> > >> > wcusm...@aol.com
>
> >> > >> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:12:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> > >> > jaredniet...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> >> > >> > XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in
> >> a
> >> > >> > sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at
> >> least one
> >> > >> > local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would
> >> support this
> >> > >> > effort.
>
> >> > >> > It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around
> >> $5000.
>
> >> > >> > If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative,
> >> and would
> >> > >> > sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.
>
> >> > >> > Jared Nieters
>
> >> > >> > Haymarket Bicycles

> >> > >> > 703 754 1911 <tel:+17037541911>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Sean Yeager]

I'm wearing my "Dopers Suck" socks right now!

Still no answer to which events, which categories, who (random/top 3/5)... Unless you're going to test at almost every race and test random + top 3 (sound familiar?), then it's pointless as a one-time affair. Of course you could cast suspicion on any rider who doesn't show up for the big "USADA Test" race, and they'd be guilty until proven innocent. Just like the pros!

Sean

Sean Yeager
Richmond, VA
csye...@gmail.com

[jared]

USADA does not announce where, when, or who they will test.

The discussion alone will make people think twice.

Knowing that it's going to happen at some point during the season will
only help.

[Martin Austermuhle]

To clarify, is that five tests (or 10, depending on cost) as in five
people getting tested at one time, or five separate races where tests
are conducted?

[J.P. Freire]

Help with what? I'm a little blown away by this, but that's possibly because I'm such a noob. This sounds more like a discussion where people who really want to do the testing thing just want to have testing because it makes these races look more professional. Asking for buy-in from clubs which are effectively a group of people who are interested in the sport as competitive recreation sounds a bit like overkill to me. I'm interested in social science, so I'll have a look at the literature about doping, but at this level, I can't imagine how this can really be a problem worth everyone's money.



---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[jared nieters]

That's just the estimate I received.

It's for 1 event.  The cost covers their estimated travel expenses and the tests.

Jared

jaredn...@hotmail.com
703 999 6689

Haymarket Bicycles
703 754 1911

haymarke...@hotmail.com
www.haymarketbicycles.com

 

---

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 13:35:17 -0800
From: harry...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing
To: jaredn...@hotmail.com; mabra...@googlegroups.com

If this is a reality, I think we should re-negotiate the rates with USADA. or they should renegotiate rates with their testing providers, if we sign on for a larger quantity of tests as a community, has that been proposed to USADA?  If they are really interested in this spreading, they should be willing. 

My 2 Cents,

Harry Fang

---

From: jared <jaredn...@hotmail.com>
To: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 4:04:18 PM
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

[jared]

The costs don't seem to be too great considering the following:

>>The MidAtlantic Bicycle Racing Association currently has approximately $50 000 in cash assets,
collected through a combination of the income from the $1/rider/
day fee collected from all promoting
clubs, and income from acting as the local association for USACycling. That sum far exceeds the
resources required for easing cash flow during the racing season.

[stephen michael]

I agree, it is a waste of money. A once a year 10 dollar fee paid by 5 - 600 people is too much money to help ensure a clean sport.

Sidenote: Does anybody know if two road bikes and a set of spare wheels can fit into the back of an X5?

Thanks

[jamesr...@gmail.com]

Folks who do well (or not) are subject to USADA tests at Natz and NRC/major U19s like RRG and L'Abitibi -- a few per year, even for Juniors. Isn't that the experience we're after? -- Jim

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "J.P. Freire" <jpeter...@gmail.com>

Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:39:27 -0500

To: <martin.au...@gmail.com>

ReplyTo: jpeter...@gmail.com

Cc: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

[WCus...@aol.com]

you are equating one day of testing of 5 to 10 riders, perhaps 1-2% of the riders for that day for $5-10K no less, with a clean sport.  I think that's a big stretch.

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775

703-524-7610 (fax)
wcus...@aol.com

 

In a message dated 1/31/2011 4:51:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, xste...@gmail.com writes:

I agree, it is a waste of money. A once a year 10 dollar fee paid by 5 - 600 people is too much money to help ensure a clean sport.

Sidenote: Does anybody know if two road bikes and a set of spare wheels can fit into the back of an X5?

Thanks

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM, J.P. Freire <jpeter...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Harry Fang]

If this is a reality, I think we should re-negotiate the rates with USADA. or they should renegotiate rates with their testing providers, if we sign on for a larger quantity of tests as a community, has that been proposed to USADA?  If they are really interested in this spreading, they should be willing. 

My 2 Cents,

Harry Fang

---

From: jared <jaredn...@hotmail.com>
To: MABRA-USCF <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 4:04:18 PM
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

[J.P. Freire]

So you're saying there's something already in place, but this proposal would be on top of that? Is the belief that this is inadequate?

And maybe one hit for $5,000 (it won't be more?) isn't expensive, but as others have noted, it sounds like to be effective it would have to be done several times. And if there's 50K in the bank, doing it just five times would be half of that, right?

Stephen, your sarcasm aside, I just don't understand the problem this is trying to solve. No one's ever going to accuse me of doping because of how bad a cyclist I am, but maybe there are others who simply don't want to be accused of it and this is a way to deal with it. In that case, can't those people who feel that way get tested individually? Pardon my ignorance, though I suppose I'm your core demographic if you're trying to explain it to the unaware.

I dunno. I have the sense from this list that there are a lot of serious cyclists, but those who are so serious that testing may be important wind up going through it anyway at some point not administered by this group. But again, you tell me.

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[Sean Yeager]

After some discussion with Jared, I think there is certainly some merit to the idea. I think we're in a new era where new methods and products are more available (thank you Al Gore for inventing the Internet!) and probably more prevalent than anyone cares to know.

I do see an issue with the value of having one race tested- they could test at a race in the early part of the year and once everyone knows it's happened, it's no longer a deterrent. I think to be effective it has to be spread out over the year, at least 3-5 races.

I dont' think the money is a huge issue. I don't know exact numbers, but if I paid a few more dollars to USAC for my license every year, and maybe $1 per race (max $30 a year for me), and that could cover a few races a year in every region, I think it would be a good deterrent, and maybe it would catch a few cheats along the way. But it has to be across the country (but then you have ACA in Colorado. Hmmm...)

I just don't see how a one-time test is going to do a whole lot. I think if there were any serious issues, we'd have one chance, maybe catch a few. And then next year we'd have to do the same thing, asking people for money. If it's not a national effort and it's volunteering (as a regional entity covering just a few states really.)

And it's also possible anyone with something to hide would just drive a few hours further to escape the new regime! Can we also institute having to document where you're going to be every 30 minutes of your life? I kid, I kid!

Sean

[Timothy Rugg]

Point missed. The equation is an attempt to make a step in the right direction encouraging USAcycling and our local cycling organizations to take on some of the responsibility required to ensure a clean sport.  It's a random test.  Not planned.  Therefor the test, albeit representing 1-2% of the riders, has a higher percentage of including the entire percentage of riders since it is random.

[mull.s...@gmail.com]

The argument of this not occurring much at the local level and varying levels of ability is off for a couple reasons: 1) doping absolutely occurs at all levels of ability and 2) this is about establishing a culture where people throughout the sport are racing clean. It shouldn't matter whether you're in a Spring Classic or the four corner crit--you should be racing clean. I don't believe the ProTour will be clean without clean local racing, and local racing is not clean (though the vast majority are, obviously).

 

I agree that this needs to be random, and it sounds like that is the case. The thought of facing a random drug test will deter some and will send a message to all that it's not tolerated.

 

-Stephen

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: Timothy Rugg <timot...@gmail.com>

Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:07:06 -0500

To: <wcus...@aol.com>

ReplyTo: timot...@gmail.com

Cc: <xste...@gmail.com>; <jpeter...@gmail.com>; <martin.au...@gmail.com>; <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

[Jim Patton]

As the debate rages on, I thought a few facts might be interesting:

1. Only USA Cycling can add an event to the USADA list.
2. If MARBA were to request that USAC add an event, MABRA would pay the bill, and this would be a first request to USAC for this level testing.
3.  The actual lab analysis costs $200/$400 per rider depending on the tests conducted (EPO screening costs more), plus the cost of transportation, housing and per diem for the tester.

The details of how a race is selected (we have LOTS of days of racing), which fields are targeted and how riders are selected could present a real challenge to this idea.

Jim

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:12 AM, jared nieters <jaredn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in a sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at least one local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would support this effort.

It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around $5000.

If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative, and would sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.

Jared Nieters



Haymarket Bicycles
703 754 1911

haymarke...@hotmail.com
www.haymarketbicycles.com

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
For general MABRA information, go to http://www.mabra.org

--
Jim Patton
301-541-7175

[J.P. Freire]

Wait, I'd add to your statement, "A culture where people are tested for dopings." Testing doesn't guarantee clean racing, nor does it even guarantee a culture of it.

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[mull.s...@gmail.com]

Point taken. It's our best method at this time and does deter some.

I hate to see us give up based on your sentiment. I think I'd find something else to do with my time if the cycling community has given up on this fight.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "J.P. Freire" <jpeter...@gmail.com>

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:16:50 -0500

To: <mull.s...@gmail.com>

Cc: <timot...@gmail.com>; <wcus...@aol.com>; <xste...@gmail.com>; <martin.au...@gmail.com>; <mabra...@googlegroups.com>

[J.P. Freire]

I'm arguing from ignorance, friend. I sincerely hope you wouldn't give up cycling because of some loud mouth. My background involves a lot of HR-knowledge of drug testing and I have mixed feelings about it myself. I haven't raced so my perspective is much less valuable, but I just have reservations about turning something casual and fun into something regulated. (Hence my job title.)

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[jared nieters]

I hope people take the time to read and re-read Stephen's comments.

As for Jim's concerns, those numbers were figured into the estimates I quoted earlier.

If the obstacles were too great, then there wouldn't be drug testing.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c53d48a4a1/all-drug-olympics

Jared

jaredn...@hotmail.com
703 999 6689

Haymarket Bicycles
703 754 1911
haymarke...@hotmail.com
www.haymarketbicycles.com

 

---

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:15:48 -0500
Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing
From: j...@jimpatton.net
To: jaredn...@hotmail.com
CC: mabra...@googlegroups.com

[Jim Weinstein]

Jared,

No harm in asking the company to consider waiving some expenses in
exchange for a grass roots effort here. The publicity alone of us
doing it in this region might drive others in other regions. From a
pure business standpoint, the testing company might legitimately
consider such a request. Certainly you could ask for travel expense
waiver.

My own 2 cents. I love it---why, because it brings a real "we ain't
gonna take it anymore" attitude ot the local level. Cycling at the
MABRA level is a nice mix of young up and commers, old has beens, and
those like me ...the "never will be's" but we all love this sport for
our own reasons. The message that MABRA tests it's athletes is a
deterrant to dopers. At least it should be.

The talk of "What will be get for our $5K" is good. Here's what we
get
1) We get the testing (as Jared mentioned)
2) We get the peace of mind knowing that at some point in the year at
some race, someone ....including me or you, might have to get tested.
This hopefully is a deterrant to doping.
3) We get the national press of fighting doping at the local level.
Surely this is too expensive to be a constant ...but it's a shot over
the bow for USA Cycling to realize that we amateurs care.
4) We get to tar and feather any doper that is found from the local
testing.......and I can already here Dave Harrell and company rolling
their eyes. If we catch a doper, do reallocating all those Mabra
points will be a chore...therefore, we make the person caught doping
be Daves number cruntching monkey. Although maybe having a cheater
doing that job isn't a good idea...I don't know on that one

I would also like to submit a couple other ideas

1) We get to take a poll on who we would like to have tested in the
MABRA Region. Much better than random testing.
2) We get to really experience life as a pro cyclist....hope you are
ready to fill out that TUE every time you want to take a wiff from
that inhaler in the cabinet!

....and to Chuck who so nicely accused another of Shakespearian
interjection...the real question we are asking...."To pee....or not to
pee..... " :)

Cheers,

Jim

[WCus...@aol.com]

do any of us really know what's on the banned list and whether we'd be caught up in doping allegations for having used, like Adam, insulin, or inhalers, or lord knows what else is banned?

knock on wood, for a geezer I don't need much other than the occasional beer and frequent caffeine, but I don't know what's on the banned list. 

 

William M. Cusmano, Esq.
William M. Cusmano, P.C.
2000 N 14th Street, #210
Arlington, VA 22201
703-527-1775
703-524-7610 (fax)
wcus...@aol.com

 

[Timothy Rugg]

If you have any doubts. Go here: http://www.globaldro.org/

 

Type in your discipline and then the drugs you take.

 

It'll tell you whether it's banned in-competition and/or out-of-competition or allowed.

 

Have fun!

 

Rugg

[marcfrazer]

Here's a thought(not an argument against testing)You can bet that if 500 people test clean , no one other than the people on this list will know. If 1 person tests dirty,every tv station and newspaper in the district,plus cyclingnews and assorted blogs will be on the story.
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Weinstein <weinste...@yahoo.com>
Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:26:02
To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: weinste...@yahoo.com
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

[jared]

I think if we institute some local drug testing, CyclingNews would
support the grassroots effort.

On Jan 31, 5:37 pm, "marcfrazer" <marc.fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here's a thought(not an argument against testing)You can bet that if 500 people test clean , no one other than the people on this list will know. If 1 person tests dirty,every tv station and newspaper in the district,plus cyclingnews and assorted blogs  will be on the story.
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Weinstein <weinsteinja...@yahoo.com>
>
> Sender: mabra...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:26:02
> To: MABRA-USCF<mabra...@googlegroups.com>

> Reply-To: weinsteinja...@yahoo.com

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[Stephen Nightingale]

Is "once a year" a good basis for drug testing at races?  If the test happens in May one year, then everyone knows they are clear for the rest of the year to shoot-up their concoction of preference. Would be better as 1.x times a year - say 1.5 times a year, so there is still a good chance of a late season test even if there was an early season test, and so keep the uncertainty and doubt for those who need that kind of encouragement to stay clean. And clearly the funding has to be smoothed out over a multi-year basis.

Stephen_N.

[Timothy Rugg]

You should read through the thread.

 

 

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Stephen Nightingale <j.s.nig...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is "once a year" a good basis for drug testing at races?  If the test happens in May one year, then everyone knows they are clear for the rest of the year to shoot-up their concoction of preference. Would be better as 1.x times a year - say 1.5 times a year, so there is still a good chance of a late season test even if there was an early season test, and so keep the uncertainty and doubt for those who need that kind of encouragement to stay clean. And clearly the funding has to be smoothed out over a multi-year basis.

Stephen_N.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MABRA-USCF" group.
To post to this group, send email to mabra...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mabra-uscf-...@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

[scweatherly]

I'll venture to ask about the 900lb gorilla here.

Does this effort coincide or align with the efforts of Harley/
Haymarket to join the ranks of NRC? I'm not being critical if it is,
but I want straight and honest answers if MABRA is being asked to
subsidize the ambitions of a particular team. If this is the case, I
would assume in the spirit of shared development of the sport they
would at least co-promote a quality race in return.


Stephen Weatherly

[Jeff Anderson]

Jim

Are you as a USAC trustee aware of USAC/USADA's desire to test at the regional level ?   If not is that because those that might be having success might also end up at a race where testing is done normally?    Would they see testing regionally as having numbers so small that it's diminishing returns to them?  Would they even bother testing Cat 3's or lower?

For sure we owe it to our Juniors to guide them down the right path but they also are growing up in a culture where the higher ground is to be dope free .... hearing it so much does sink in.....   I might be naive here but of the juniors I know entering the big game - they have their heads on straight, have the right people around them and their parents would likely kick their ass if they doped.....

Testing in MABRA feels like a witch hunt.....a simpler option would be to see if they weigh the same as a duck rather than peeing in a cup or drawing blood.  

There are better ways to spend any MABRA money burning a hole in someone's pocket....

 

Regards

Jeff Anderson

---

From: Jim Patton <j...@jimpatton.net>
To: jaredn...@hotmail.com
Cc: MABRA <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 5:15:48 PM

Subject: Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing

[Jim Patton]

Jeff,

 

USADA is responsible, and the only legal authority, for this type of testing for non-UCI events.  USAC provides a list of events where they would like testing to be accomplished (e.g., national championships, record attempts, etc.), but USADA decides where and when.  UCI events may be tested using UCI protocols, but USADA can add UCI events to their calendar. 

 

The 'where and when' includes nearly 20,000 tests last year. 

 

I've talked to USAC staff and they currently no not plan to request regional/local level testing by USADA.

 

Jim

--
Jim Patton
301-541-7175

[Jeff Anderson]

Jim 

Thanks ... I think that helps put things in perspective from the governing bodies of the sport....and maybe guide us accordingly.

I guess I'd rather see a dollar spent on saving a life from getting hit by a car than catching Joe Hammerhead who doped and won one of the Greenbelt races.  
 

Regards

Jeff Anderson

---

From: Jim Patton <j...@jimpatton.net>

To: Jeff Anderson <jeffreya...@gmail.com>
Cc: jaredn...@hotmail.com; MABRA <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 9:15:58 AM

[Tom GMS]

Though I come to this discussion quite late...

There was doping on my high school's football team back in the day
(seriously low-stakes). I have no doubt there are cat 4 dopers in
MABRA.

While there are obviously plenty of details to work out, this is
broadly a great idea.

On Jan 31, 3:12 pm, jared nieters <jaredniet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in a sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at least one local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would support this effort.
> It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around $5000.
> If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative, and would sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.
>
> Jared Nieters
>
> Haymarket Bicycles
> 703 754 1911

> haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com

[superdave]

what Tom said is not a stretch. People, don't be naive. Do people
think it's only upper level riders? It could be cat 5, cat 4, women,
and juniors too. Masters have already been caught. I've been in
races where the winners of the race were later caught and suspended.
One of them got banned from racing.
Why do people think not in mabra? Why not? If folk do it somewhere
else, why not here? Are people in the DC area just different? That’s
like saying people only smoke pot, weed, crack or whatever only in
certain states... NOT! I think the only way it will weed out "some"
folk is if testing is done frequent and unannounced. Even test when
people are NOT at races.... I say "some", because some people are
smart that dope. Papp said it's easy NOT to get caught. he just was
careless. the other thing is costs so much, so I don't think it will
be effective. it's a start though, so I think it's a good thing.

> > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[George Blankenship]

I'm all for no doping and keeping the sport clean.  but this just seams way to steep of a cost, i think a timing system, more officials, race promotions, etc would would be a much better investment then a doping system.  It clearly is cost prohibitive to fully test all of the field let alone the elite top riders where it will cost almost 7k per 10 tests.. thats just a single race..   With the top races in MABRA the the purse isn't even that much. 

If anything MABRA should put any Doping controls in place at the elite squads on each local team and put the burden on them.  I see if we push forward with this effort as a group for MABRA as a whole your going to run into folks that will decided its not worth their time and effort to race since they will now have to check everything they eat and drink.  Most folks go out and race because they want to and have fun while doing it, knowing fully well that they will never recoup any money that they have put into the sport. 

Why risk killing how great MABRA has become because the pro's have been and always will be doping or doing the next latest and greatest thing to get ahead, because it's how they are paid and their livelihood.

What is legal this year that is latest and greatest thing it's a good chance next year it will become banned because it became too popular and poof it's gone..  The amateur level of cycling it's better to promote good moral character than to for one to promote invasive doping controls on them because the pro's do it because they are paid the money to race clean.

> > William M. Cusmano, Esq.
> > William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> > 2000 N 14th Street, #210
> > Arlington, VA 22201

> >> > >> > William M. Cusmano, Esq.
> >> > >> > William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> >> > >> > 2000 N 14th Street, #210
> >> > >> > Arlington, VA 22201

> >> > >> > 703-527-1775 <tel:+17035271775>
> >> > >> > 703-524-7610 <tel:+17035247610> (fax)

> >> > >> > wcusm...@aol.com
>

> >> > >> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:23:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> > >> > mull.step...@gmail.com writes:
>
> >> > >> > I believe doping in the US, at any level, impacts our sport in a
> >> very
> >> > >> > significant and negative way. While it may simply be sad and
> >> pathetic at
> >> > >> > certain levels of racing, it also impacts the cycling culture and
> >> > >> > perpetuates an awful part of this sport.
>
> >> > >> > Jared, thanks to you and your team for taking the initiative.
>

> >> > >> > -Stephen
>
> >> > >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

> >> > >> > ------------------------------
> >> > >> > *From: *WCusm...@aol.com
> >> > >> > *Sender: *mabra...@googlegroups.com
> >> > >> > *Date: *Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:18:39 EST
> >> > >> > *To: *<jaredniet...@hotmail.com>; <mabra...@googlegroups.com>
> >> > >> > *ReplyTo: *wcusm...@aol.com
> >> > >> > *Subject: *Re: [MABRA-USCF] USADA Testing
>
> >> > >> > maybe I'm naive, and I realize that you guys play in different
> >> sandboxes
> >> > >> > from most of us, but is there really a need for this?  speaking for
> >> myself,
> >> > >> > if anyone in the Cat 3/Masters ranks is doping, and there may be, I
> >> think
> >> > >> > it's just pathetic, but it's not worth getting all worked up over.
> >>  They can
> >> > >> > have the $50 or whatever in prize money.
>

> >> > >> > William M. Cusmano, Esq.
> >> > >> > William M. Cusmano, P.C.
> >> > >> > 2000 N 14th Street, #210
> >> > >> > Arlington, VA 22201

> >> > >> > 703-527-1775 <tel:+17035271775>
> >> > >> > 703-524-7610 <tel:+17035247610> (fax)

> >> > >> > wcusm...@aol.com
>

> >> > >> >  In a message dated 1/31/2011 9:12:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> > >> > jaredniet...@hotmail.com writes:
>

> >> > >> > XO Communications / Battley Harley-Davidson racing is interested in
> >> a
> >> > >> > sponsoring a request for funding from MABRA to get USADA to at
> >> least one
> >> > >> > local race this season.  It's our hope that other clubs would
> >> support this
> >> > >> > effort.
>
> >> > >> > It sounds like total costs to get USADA to one race would be around
> >> $5000.
>
> >> > >> > If there are any clubs interested in supporting this initiative,
> >> and would
> >> > >> > sign onto a request for funding from MABRA, please contact me.
>
> >> > >> > Jared Nieters
>
> >> > >> > Haymarket Bicycles

> >> > >> > 703 754 1911 <tel:+17037541911>

> >> > >> > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.com

> ...
>
> read more »

[J.P. Freire]

It's also not naivete and please don't be so hasty to ascribe either callousness or stupidity to the folks with whom you disagree.

I've read a lot of platitudes about how this will ensure a cleaner sport, or that this will show how serious it is. I get where the pro-testing people are coming from, but those of us expressing concern seem to be looking at the cost benefit.

The questions go like this:
How many will get tested? A small sampling. But the justification is that it sends a message to those who do dope.
Who are we really trying to catch? Someone who'd be at an upper level is my guess. But the response is that it happens at all levels.
But is it really a problem for all levels? Response: At any level it's a problem.

In other words, the pro argument is about sending a message, with the possible benefit of actually catching dopers. So, the question, I guess, is whether the price is worth it. Would coverage of MABRA really just show how serious it is about doping? Or will the coverage be about how ineffective it will be?

I ask this as a journalist, by the way. My job is to read into platitudes. You know what I'd write about? I'd see steps like this as a sign that there's apparently such a pervasive problem of doping that it's come to amateurs getting tested. I'd also be unlikely to write about how this is just a positive effort. I'd be more interested in finding out about who is doping, or the failure rates of these tests, etc. That's how we operate.

That's not to mention the invasive nature of this testing. Not everyone who goes to these races is signing up for a super-serious simulation of Lance Armstrong for a day. I don't want to be randomly tested at a race because I don't want to be tested. It sucks the air out of the room to think about it.

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[J.P. Freire]

I'd also add this: I'm getting a bunch of emails from people in private who don't want to speak up for fear of enflaming proponents, or for being called naive, etc. I bring this up only to say, there are a lot of people on this list with varying opinions, and I'm glad that the topic was brought up for discussion. Just please be sure that when you do weigh in, that you don't malign those who disagree with you. (I'll do my best, too.)

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[Catherine Miller]

I agree with Dave and Tom that it is not a stretch to think that a
cyclist of any level could be doping. However, I agree that one or
even a few random tests throughout the season is not an effective
method to clean up the sport. It promotes a message of no tolerance,
but in my experience with equestrian sports, it is ineffective in
actually achieving a clean sport. Those who want to follow the rules
will, and those who don't won't. Many of them will continue to get
away with it. As with anything illegal or taboo, there is a risk-
benefit analysis for the actor, and the testing proposed seems to
carry a low risk, which means low deterrence.

In show jumping, testers would show up to various events of all
levels, and random classes (categories) and random horses would be
selected for testing. The potential threat of testers showing up one
day does not deter some people from engaging in illegal use of
pharmaceuticals for their horses. This happens at the most basic
grassroots level on up to Olympic competition. It doesn't matter if
the drugs are arguably more therapeutic than performance enhancing.
(As an aside, the equivalent of TUEs in show jumping are used in only
limited circumstances, usually after a course of the therapeutic drug
has been prescribed by a vet and completed prior to the event, but
there is the potential for it to show up in a test during the event).
You are disqualified if your horse is limping during competition, and
you are likewise disqualified (and possibly suspended) if you get
caught exceeding the allowed amount of anti-inflammatories so that he
won't limp. The actual deterrent effect of a disqualification or
suspension is nowhere near what is being argued in this thread. If it
was, then why is there still doping in sports that do more testing?

In addition, you have to take into account the arguably "innocent"
person breaking the rules, who, from a policy standpoint, we don't
want to impose sanctions against. These aren't the people we're out to
get with testing. Maybe this is the diabetic or asthmatic who screwed
up regarding TUEs. Maybe it's lack of awareness by cyclists and local
doctors regarding temporary therapeutic use of new medications. What
about that cortisone injection for your aching knee or dislocated
shoulder? An Olympic gold medalist in show jumping was stripped of
his title because the team vet (allegedly) gave the horse a steroid
cream to treat a skin infection. (This team has since had more
equestrian doping scandals, so maybe it wasn't so innocent--but notice
that losing a gold has not been an effective deterrent, either!).
Flashback to the Olympic gymnast who lost her medal for taking Sudafed
for a head cold. The active ingredient in Sudafed is now OFF the
banned list.

We are trying to deter and punish those with an intent to get ahead by
the wrong means. I see a risk of causing unintended harm while
obtaining very little benefit of actually curtailing the targeted
behavior. One, or even a few, tests per season will have more of a
publicity effect than a deterrent effect. If Olympians, grand tour
stage winners, and TdF yellow jersey wearers continue to dope (no
matter what their excuse) when they are guaranteed to be tested, do
you think the local dopers will be scared by the chance of being one
out of 5 or 10 people on race day to be tested? In my experience,
where random testing was conducted over a larger percentage of the
event population (including juniors, amateurs and pros), I knew of
people who broke the rules, and I am sure there were many more I
didn't know about. It was extremely rare for someone to get caught
and suspended, because testing was sporadic, even though testing was
more frequent than what is being proposed for MABRA. I think that the
money could be spent in better ways for our community than in
conducting a one-off drug test that will not have an appreciable
effect in cleaning up the sport.

-Catherine

> > > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com-Hide quoted text -

[Greg Abbott]

I am sick of hearing people say that the money could be better spent somewhere else. That has nothing to do with this. The money is there, in the MABRA coffers. It is available for pilot programs. Which require a proposal. To date, no one has submitted a proposal aside from this one. Jared took it upon himself to do the research and legwork to make this happen.

Think money would be better used for timing chips or bikes for disadvantaged juniors? Write a proposal and spearhead it. Everything else is armchair quarterbacking.

The money is there, and has been accumulating. Is it not more wasteful to do nothing while we have the resources to do something?

[Lumpy]

It's Summer Softball People! Did the prize list get really big when I
wasn't looking?

You want to test me have at it.
I see no benefit in testing.
In 2 years they are back. Reformed or not.
For the record
During the Spring and Summer and Fall I spray Fluticasone Propionate
in my nose to cut the effects of allergies.
Does it help performance? Nope. But it does reduce the amount I blow
my nose while on the bike. The peloton should thank me!
Its not on the banned substance list. I checked last year. If it made
the list this year I won't use it. I use Clif products and
occasionally put 140 pounds in my tires for a TT.
I have takin away an inside line (Sorry Art). Almost killed people
when I wanted to get thru a blocking attempt, And drafted a little bit
longer than I should have in a break a way. Is that cheating?

If someone beats me I will go on the premis it was his day, he
prepared better, he was smarter, or he just suffered more than I was
willing to.

Riding is about exploring the inner self. For me my biggest victories
have been when I chose to dig deeper and over come that burning desire
to drift off the back.

If someone can justify hanging on or breaking free of the group with
PED helping them explore their inner self and feel whole about it. I
hope they will have some sleepless nights. What if?

Seems like a waste of cash to me. Maybe make a $5000 donation to help
some starving kid in the name of MABRA.



I would like to calirfy.

~$5000 get us 5 peopled tested?
Or
~$5000 gets 5 tests for everybody in the race?

John Olinski

Some additional reading.
from Cyclingnews today.

“I don’t think I was courageous not to take drugs,” the former
Festina, Française des Jeux and Jean Delatour rider told Cyclingnews.

“To me, courage is all about overcoming fear, and I was never scared.
I was just lucky - I’d had a balanced upbringing, lots of love in my
life, and no void which made me want to dope. Refusing to take drugs
was easy for me, whereas other people have things missing in their
lives which mean that’s not the case. Doping is always a response to a
void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or
something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping
in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping
responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the
Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

Bassons says that, while the public, media and authorities view doping
in terms of “legal” and “illegal”, an athlete will often superimpose
his own ideas of what is legitimate and what is not. Landis, for
example, told Kimmage that, for him, doping was a means – the only
means in a sport allegedly riddled with corruption – to realize a Tour
de France dream.

“I don’t know why Landis had that dream, why he needed that, or indeed
why he lied for all those years – you’d have to look at his
upbringing, his values – but there’s always something behind it,”
Bassons argued.

[J.P. Freire]

Logical fallacy, Greg. All credit to Jared for doing the research, but many of us are also saying that we don't want the burden of getting tested either. We don't have to offer another thing to spend money on just so we can say we don't want to spend money on something we don't want to go through.

But don't go calling people names like armchair quarterbacks for weighing in on something that might affect them. It's things like that which discourage discussion, and I think the reason Jared brought it up was because he wanted people to talk about it.

---
J. Peter Freire
Associate Editor of Commentary
Washington Examiner

[jared nieters]

Lumpy, I support your proposal to spend $5000 to help starving kids in the name of MABRA.
That still leaves us $40,000.  Sweet.

Jared

 
 
 
> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 12:08:07 -0800

> Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

> From: joli...@comcast.net
> To: mabra...@googlegroups.com

[Matt E Doyle]

Mabra has $45k to spend!?

Lets put an extra $10k of prize money into 4 big races this year.  Tell everyone that there will be testing at each of the big races.  Then randomly test at one of the races, or don't test at all.

Either way it will be fun to watch the dopers skip the biggest races of the season and hear the excuse for why they won't be there.

Matt

[Jerry Mahone]

This is the best idea I've heard yet.  Seems to accomplish the goal of at least attempting to discourage doping while theoretically offering the biggest prize opportunities to a clean(er) field.

Jerry

[Jordan Cross]

Anyone have a set of used speedplays they are looking to sell?  A friend is looking for a pair with some good mileage still left in them.  X2 or light action. 

[fabsroman]

I agree with you completely Dave. I think doping will occur in any
region and at any level. It knows no boundaries. The big question is
how to combat it. From what I have read, it is somewhat easy not to
get caught if the doper knows what to do and pays attention to detail.
That is what is so disappointing. For any single positive result, you
know that there are bunches of people getting away with it.

Even as a pretty straight laced guy myself that has never tried drugs
or smoking and never been drunk, I will say that I thought about
doping as a junior when I was racing against the likes of Jonas and
Big George. No matter how much I trained, I could never get around
those guys or you. Then, I decided to attend college and give up on
the Tour de France.

On Feb 2, 9:43 am, superdave <superd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[fabsroman]

There might be different ways to address this. Make the suspensions/
fines lighter for the more amateur categories. In other words, instead
of a 2 year ban for a positive test of a Mens Cat 4 racer, give him a
1 year ban. Maybe even insitute a fine system in lieu of a ban for
Mens Cat 3 and Mens Cat 4 and the equivalent throughout the land. I
fully understand that a bunch of amateur racers out there have no
desire to dope and will not avidly follow the banned substance list
and/or review everything they eat. I would be one of them. I am at the
point where I would be racing for sheer fun. Back in the 80's, that
was completely the opposite. Problem is, you never really know the
reason behind why a person is racing, even if they tell you to your
face.

By the way, I think a 2 year ban for somebody in the elite or pro
ranks is a little bit light. Racers at that level should be paying
attention to the banned substance list and what they put in their
bodies, because they know they very well could be participating in
some high level races during the year.

As far as losing a gold medal is concerned for horse jumping, that is
not a "cost" of doping because without doping the gold medal might
never have been won in the first place. You just don't know because
the result is tainted. Kind of like saying that the cost of doping in
cycling is the possibility of having your yellow jersey stripped from
you. Thing is, you might never get that yellow jersey in the first
place without the dope.

> > > > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com-Hidequoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[ryansim...@gmail.com]

I think that it might be a good way to get media attention for the
sponsors. The $5k would probably get the teams involved into at least
local media. With all the stuff going on with Landis and Armstrong it
could be seen as a stand by local racers and sponsor to prove that we
are not all doping. Either way I think it would be a good bang for the
buck as far as advertising goes.

> > > > > haymarketbicyc...@hotmail.comwww.haymarketbicycles.com-Hidequotedtext -

[Speedipus Asphaltus]

You'll get media attention all right, and the world will die laughing.

To people on the street, you guys are just a bunch of asses prancing around
in spandex and plastering yourselves with advertisements to look like pros.
They are not stupid, they know you are just a bunch of pretentious nobodies.

So go ahead now and convinced them that you are also a bunch of dopers.

-----Original Message-----
From: mabra...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mabra...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of RYDO...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:07 AM
To: MABRA-USCF
Subject: [MABRA-USCF] Re: USADA Testing

--

[Scott]

Seriously. Dressing up in my team kit and riding a nice bike makes me
feel pro enough. I don't need to be drug-tested too.

I have enough going on in my life between work and family--and trying
to find a little bit of time to train for my pro cycling career. I
don't need to deal with filling out TUE forms and checking the WADA
lists. Trying to organize my daughter's summer camp schedule takes
enough time as it is.

If I have to worry about being labeled a doper because my allergy
medication is a banned substance, I honestly don't see myself racing
anymore. How many of us want to risk our personal and professional
reputations to go ride around in circles at the local office park?

Or, I guess we could hire a MABRA doctor to advise us all and make
sure our paperwork is in order.

On Feb 3, 2:40 am, "Speedipus Asphaltus" <veloch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You'll get media attention all right, and the world will die laughing.
>
> To people on the street, you guys are just a bunch of asses prancing around
> in spandex and plastering yourselves with advertisements to look like pros.
> They are not stupid, they know you are just a bunch of pretentious nobodies.
>
> So go ahead now and convinced them that you are also a bunch of dopers.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mabra...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mabra...@googlegroups.com] On
>

> Behalf Of RYDO1...@gmail.com

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org- Hide quoted text -

[Ringer]

Jordan actually had the first question, that both pertains to MABRA
and can be solved in the context of this thread.

Does any one actually have a GOOD reason we need more testing? Is
there a shred of evidence that there are so many dopers in MABRA that
they are denying the rest of us our podium spots? Does anyone really
REALLY think that is happening? Is this just an exercise in people
proving that they are more ethical bike racers than the next lot and
in the process make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Don't get me wrong I am getting a good laugh out of this so by all
means continue.

On Feb 3, 2:40 am, "Speedipus Asphaltus" <veloch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You'll get media attention all right, and the world will die laughing.
>
> To people on the street, you guys are just a bunch of asses prancing around
> in spandex and plastering yourselves with advertisements to look like pros.
> They are not stupid, they know you are just a bunch of pretentious nobodies.
>
> So go ahead now and convinced them that you are also a bunch of dopers.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mabra...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mabra...@googlegroups.com] On
>

> Behalf Of RYDO1...@gmail.com

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en
> For general MABRA information, go tohttp://www.mabra.org- Hide quoted text -

[Scott Fulton]

Can the USADA even require a Cat2-5 to take a drug test? Seems to me according to the USADA website this is reserved for ELITE level athletes, but I could be wrong

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf?hl=en

For general MABRA information, go to http://www.mabra.org

--
Scott Fulton
1424 Orren St. NE
Washington DC, 20002
703-462-0197

[Corey DiPietro]

"Make the suspensions/fines lighter for the more amateur categories?"

At what point did MABRA collectively gain the ability to determine
suspension lengths?

> ...
>
> read more »

[Ringer]

Scott - Short answer, yes. It's part of the terms of your USAC license
and in the rule book.

Page 251: "Any USA Cycling member could be tested at any event and
must adhere to all USADA and/or UCI anti-doping control procedures in
effect at the event."

Seems people have usurped the power over MABRA's budget, why not shoot
the moon and just rewrite UCI, WADA, USADA and USAC regulations. While
we are at it let's do something about that 3:1 rule.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Mark Blacknell]

I'd settle for firing Pat McQuaid.

[Scott Fulton]

Ah yes the rule book. thanks I see it now.

 

Section 1

. USA Cycling has adopted and participates in the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) protocol for Olympic Movement testing (USADA protocol). The USADA protocol is incorporated herein by reference and shall prevail over any USA Cycling Regulation to the contrary. Their medical control regulations shall apply to USA Cycling, its Associations, and all members, licensees, participants in races granted permits by USA Cycling or Associations, and organizations affiliated with USA Cycling or Associations. For information on or a copy of the USADA protocol can be obtained from USADA at (800) 233-0393 or the USADA web site www.usantidoping.org.

[Matt Neigh]

hopefully this discussion can keep going until 3 am so speedipus asphalticus

[Matt Neigh]

i hope this discussion can keep going until 3 am so speedipus asphalticus can write another funny response.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Scott Fulton <e.scott...@gmail.com> wrote:

[K.Lo]

I thought Jim Patton cleared up the questions about USADA testing
etc.?? or are we just typing to read our own thoughts ;-) If so here
are mine.

Jared threw out a proposal and apparently he was the only one to do so
when there is some $$ in the pot to be allocated for proposals. So if
you have a proposal fly it by MABRA (be sure to post it here first for
criticism) and maybe your proposal will get funded, or at the very
least picked apart by dozens!

On Feb 3, 10:20 am, Matt Neigh <neigh.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hopefully this discussion can keep going until 3 am so speedipus asphalticus
>

> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Scott Fulton <e.scott.ful...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Ah yes the rule book. thanks I see it now.
>

> *Section 1*

>
> . USA Cycling has adopted and participates in the United States Anti-Doping
> Agency (USADA) protocol for Olympic Movement testing (USADA protocol). The
> USADA protocol is incorporated herein by reference and shall prevail over
> any USA Cycling Regulation to the contrary. Their medical control

> regulations shall apply to USA Cycling, its Associations,* and all members,
> licensees,* participants in races granted permits by USA Cycling or

> Associations, and organizations affiliated with USA Cycling or Associations.
> For information on or a copy of the USADA protocol can be obtained from
> USADA at (800) 233-0393 or the USADA web sitewww.usantidoping.org.
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Mark Blacknell <m...@blacknell.net> wrote:
>
> I'd settle for firing Pat McQuaid.
>