3.7 CD & tshirt & poster pre-orders
Theo de Raadt
http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
The theme for the release is the Wizard of OS, when the song and
related artwork is released in a while it will be more clear how that
works out.
Jason Crawford
the first OpenBSD T-shirt I've ordered (just did along with pre-order
for 3.7 cd)! Kickass artwork guys.
Jason
Alexander Chamandy
OpenBSD has always had the best artwork of all the BSDs. I think
that's a major point in the positive PR image.
--
Best wishes,
Alexander G. Chamandy
Webmaster
www.bsdfreak.org
Your Source For BSD News!
travis cremer
and the art is awesome as usual... great job!
Stephan Tesch
Hi Theo,
The 3.7-RELEASE page says you're going to ship it with OpenSSH 4.1? Is this
true or just a typo?
Regards, Stephan
> 3.7 CD & tshirt & poster pre-orders are up at
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html
>
> The theme for the release is the Wizard of OS, when the song and
> related artwork is released in a while it will be more clear how that
> works out.
--
PGP key: http://www.tesch.cx/stephan.asc
Fingerprint: 9CF9 0D64 2957 B44D A0C8
35FE 0382 AE49 DFAB 9CAF
Han Boetes
> The 3.7-RELEASE page says you're going to ship it with OpenSSH
> 4.1? Is this true or just a typo?
It's really really true.
~% ssh -V
OpenSSH_4.1, OpenSSL 0.9.7d 17 Mar 2004
# Han
Stephan Tesch
Thanks Han!
Anyone care to elaborate which changes there are causing the version number to
change?
Regards, Stephan
Han Boetes
> Anyone care to elaborate which changes there are causing the
> version number to change?
Very simple. Move your browser to www.openbsd.org and look at the
cvsweb link and search for the ssh dir and read your heart out.
# Han
Ed White
http://www.openbsd.org/images/poster13.gif
By the way, I think that putting the version number in the poster is a bad
habit. That's why most people preferred the 2.9 poster.
Otto Moerbeek
> There is a broken link. The poster URL is
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/images/poster13.gif
It would help more if you said which link is broken. Or even send a
diff...
-Otto
Stephan Tesch
> Very simple. Move your browser to www.openbsd.org and look at the
> cvsweb link and search for the ssh dir and read your heart out.
Sure, this is usually a way to get information. A ChangeLog file might be nice
(I'm aware of plus.html).
Anyway, it seems from a first glance at the cvsweb stuff, that there have been
a few bugfixes, but no new features. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...
Ed White
> > There is a broken link. The poster URL is
> > http://www.openbsd.org/images/poster13.gif
>
> It would help more if you said which link is broken. Or even send a
> diff...
I think there's just one link to the poster in the whole openbsd.org website.
It's in the page /orders.html, poster 3.7, "Larger Image".
Aleksander Piotrowski
> Very simple. Move your browser to www.openbsd.org and look at the
> cvsweb link and search for the ssh dir and read your heart out.
Yeah, and if he's curious what's new in OpenBSD 3.7 he should read diff
between OPENBSD_3_6 and OPENBSD_3_7?
Informations you need will be available here:
http://www.openbsd.org/37.html
When? Before 1st May, I believe.
Alek
--
Przy dwsch takich okazjach potraktowano Nell zgodnie z jej najczarniejszymi
oczekiwaniam. Podczas tych okropno6ci mia3a zamknijte oczy, wiedz1c, ?e
cokolwiek zrobi1 z wehiku3em jej duszy, sama dusza pozostanie nietknijta, tak
jak ksij?yc, ktsry spokojnie patrzy z gsry na w6ciek3e zakljcia szamansw.
-- Neal Stephenson, Diamentowy Wiek
Alexander Chamandy
> There is a broken link. The poster URL is
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/images/poster13.gif
>
> habit. That's why most people preferred the 2.9 poster.
I have to agree, I think mentioning the version number is a double
edged sword. On the up side, it makes the product fresh and new,
encourages people to buy it (*hint hint*), but on the down side it
limits the lifespan of the product. Who wants a whole bunch of old
t-shirts from previous versions? I didn't think of that too much
until now.
Stephan Tesch
> Yeah, and if he's curious what's new in OpenBSD 3.7 he should read diff
> between OPENBSD_3_6 and OPENBSD_3_7?
I was just curious what did change between the recently announced OpenSSH 4.0
and the new 4.1.
> Informations you need will be available here:
> http://www.openbsd.org/37.html
As for that, there's only this listed:
* OpenSSH 4.1:
(Hoping that there'll be more)
Jonathan Weiss
Stephan Tesch
> Am I the only one who cannot access
> https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order.eu ?
I guess the server is just under high load. I got these issues back when the
new cvs server donations were pouring in. Just try it later...
Stephan
Henning Brauer
> On Friday 25 March 2005 13:41, Aleksander Piotrowski wrote:
>
> > Yeah, and if he's curious what's new in OpenBSD 3.7 he should read diff
> > between OPENBSD_3_6 and OPENBSD_3_7?
>
> I was just curious what did change between the recently announced OpenSSH 4.0
> and the new 4.1.
>
> > Informations you need will be available here:
> > http://www.openbsd.org/37.html
>
> As for that, there's only this listed:
>
> * OpenSSH 4.1:
>
> (Hoping that there'll be more)
there's supposed to be a list of major changes since whatever OpenSSH
3.9 (or was it 3.9.1? heck, whatever we shipped with OpenBSD 3.6) but
noone compiled that yet
--
BS Web Services, http://www.bsws.de/
OpenBSD-based Webhosting, Mail Services, Managed Servers, ...
Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.
(Dennis Ritchie)
Jens Ropers
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:07:04 +0100, Ed White <ed.w...@libero.it>
> wrote:
>> By the way, I think that putting the version number in the poster is
>> a bad
>> habit. That's why most people preferred the 2.9 poster.
<AOL>Yes, seconded.</AOL>
Jens Ropers
> Am I the only one who cannot access
> https://https.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/order.eu ?
>
>
> Jonathan
Can't access that either. Browser timeout after 75 secs or so. I tried
several times.
Bob Beck
>
> Can't access that either. Browser timeout after 75 secs or so. I tried
> several times.
>
DSL died. Server now moved. you should see it once your
dns updates or if you can't wait it's at 68.148.128.241
-Bob
Alexander Chamandy
<der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
> either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
> a quick buck, right?
Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
*ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
any misunderstanding.
>
> > Return-Path: owner-mi...@openbsd.org
> > Delivery-Date: Fri Mar 25 05:57:40 2005
> > Received: from shear.ucar.edu (shear.ucar.edu [192.43.244.163])
> > by cvs.openbsd.org (8.13.3/8.12.1) with ESMTP id j2PCvdbk012652;
> > Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:57:39 -0700 (MST)
> > Received: from openbsd.org (localhost.ucar.edu [127.0.0.1])
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> > Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:53:31 -0700 (MST)
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> > Received: by 10.38.179.44 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:43:09 -0800 (PST)
> > Message-ID: <f420b2a105032...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:43:09 -0500
> > From: Alexander Chamandy <bsdf...@gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: Alexander Chamandy <bsdf...@gmail.com>
> > To: ed.w...@libero.it
> > Subject: Re: 3.7 CD & tshirt & poster pre-orders
> > Cc: mi...@openbsd.org
> > In-Reply-To: <200503251307....@libero.it>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > References: <200503251307....@libero.it>
> > X-Loop: mi...@openbsd.org
> > Precedence: list
> > Sender: owner...@openbsd.org
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:07:04 +0100, Ed White <ed.w...@libero.it> wrote:
> > > There is a broken link. The poster URL is
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsd.org/images/poster13.gif
> > >
> > > By the way, I think that putting the version number in the poster is a bad
> > > habit. That's why most people preferred the 2.9 poster.
> >
> >
Theo de Raadt
> <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
> > either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
> > a quick buck, right?
>
> Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
> all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
> *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
> simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> any misunderstanding.
So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
1) He used our OpenBSD artwork without permission.
2) Our artwork is copyrighted by me (or other members of the project).
3) The web site says you can use our artwork in an OpenBSD-favorable
way.
4) NOWHERE is permission given to sell our artwork.
5) Copyright law has been explained here so many times by now, it should
be abundantly clear. If you are not given permission, you do NOT
HAVE IT.
2) He never asked for permission. (By the way, I get about one
request for permission a week, and I normally grant it -- it
depends of course)
3) We make money off our tshirt sales, and do not see the need to
make more tshirts at a place that takes 80% of the profits for
themselves -- ie. cafepress.
4) Even if we wanted to do such a thing, why would we use a middle-man
like Alexander? Why Alexander, would we not have done this ourselves?
5) I've seen lots of people try to do exactly the same thing and say
"I want to give the money to OpenBSD". Yet it has never happened.
6) When I contacted cafepress, their lawyer agreed with me. Not with
Alexander.
Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
You say that you are a BSD web site, and that you understand why we
all do this, yet you cannot even pay attention to copyright law --
the basis under which we make much of our work free (but not all).
Shame on you.
(I only reply in this fashion because Alexander sent me another mail
violently asserting that what he did was right, which utterly astounds
me)
Sean Davis
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700, Theo de Raadt
> > <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
> > > either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
> > > a quick buck, right?
> >
> > Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
> > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
> > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
> > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > any misunderstanding.
>
> So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
<snip>
> Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
Sorry, Theo, hate to burst your bubble here, but I wouldn't put the OpenBSD
logo on ANYTHING even if OpenBSD paid ME. Your attitude is only matched by
the low quality of your software, and accusing Alex of ripping you off
amuses me, considering OpenBSD is nothing more than a glorified ripoff
itself, and always has been. Leave me out of this. Alex is a bit more
open-minded, which, it seems, you don't like. Too bad. Life goes on. I'm
sure he'll be more than happy to donate the $0.00 he made from OpenBSD
merchandise to OpenBSD.
- Sean
Alexander Chamandy
<der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700, Theo de Raadt
> > <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
> > > either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
> > > a quick buck, right?
> >
> > Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
> > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
> > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
> > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > any misunderstanding.
>
> So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
>
Permission is granted on the site
http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
> 2) Our artwork is copyrighted by me (or other members of the project).
Whether you like it or not, the site grants a non-exclusive license to
the public to use your copyrighted works.
> 3) The web site says you can use our artwork in an OpenBSD-favorable
> way.
Which obviously it was favorable. There was no bashing of OpenBSD.
If it was the original artwork, which you claim it was, then if it
wasn't favorable that is something to take up with your artists.
> 4) NOWHERE is permission given to sell our artwork.
"[..] it is our intent that anyone be able to use these images to
represent OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let the world
see them, if that is your wish."
That was my wish, to let the world see them. There is no clause
forbidding any sort of sale. http://www.cafepress.com/bsdfreak
clearly states profits will be remitted back to the project of origin.
That would mean you get the money we make off of OpenBSD garb.
> 5) Copyright law has been explained here so many times by now, it should
> be abundantly clear. If you are not given permission, you do NOT
> HAVE IT.
You are not an attorney, neither am I. Whomever explained it may well
not have been either. What this comes down to is a simple
misunderstanding.
> 2) He never asked for permission. (By the way, I get about one
> request for permission a week, and I normally grant it -- it
> depends of course)
There were several other CafePress shops selling the same sort of
items as well as various other sites on the Internet. I didn't ask
for permission because the Art page seemed pretty clear about the
policy. You recently updated it because you yourself must have
thought it was unclear.
> 3) We make money off our tshirt sales, and do not see the need to
> make more tshirts at a place that takes 80% of the profits for
> themselves -- ie. cafepress.
If you do, than congratulations. However, if I'm reaching a market
that you don't, than obviously that profit can be put to good use. In
that, if my customers (which I actually had none, there were NO SALES
of OpenBSD merchandise) were not yours and did not in any way
interfere with yours then you get priceless marketing exposure AND
money. Win/win situation.
> 4) Even if we wanted to do such a thing, why would we use a middle-man
> like Alexander? Why Alexander, would we not have done this ourselves?
Because of what I mentioned above. Good PR is priceless. This little
tyrade you're going on is very bad PR.
> 5) I've seen lots of people try to do exactly the same thing and say
> "I want to give the money to OpenBSD". Yet it has never happened.
Yet you assume I'm guilty until proven innocent? Why would you give
anyone else permission if you claim this is the case?
> 6) When I contacted cafepress, their lawyer agreed with me. Not with
> Alexander.
Their lawyer actually never discussed the matter directly with me. I
have no problem not selling OpenBSD merchandise and not encouraging
people to donate to OpenBSD, if that's what you really want. In the
past I've passionately tried to encourage people to donate, given
OpenBSD a lot of press. BSDFreak is not some fly-by-night news site,
we get over 500,000 hits a month from a wide audience and are quickly
emerging as a top contender in the BSD news community. Your
willingness to alienate a potential ally is not taken with a grain of
salt.
You also didn't show their lawyer your little "license" on the art
page. You just outright cried bloody murder for all to see. I'll
send an original copy of the e-mail you sent them if necessary.
> Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
No more or less than you violated the NetBSD copyrights, several times.
> You say that you are a BSD web site, and that you understand why we
> all do this, yet you cannot even pay attention to copyright law --
> the basis under which we make much of our work free (but not all).
You claim that you are a BSD project, but you regularly alienate
users, supporters and contributors. You tell people not to use
OpenBSD based on your own inability to control your frustration.
You'll readily bash anyone on the grounds that they don't agree with
you.
> Shame on you.
Shame on you, as well.
> (I only reply in this fashion because Alexander sent me another mail
> violently asserting that what he did was right, which utterly astounds
> me)
You replied in this fashion because I did not immediately grace your
all-caps curse-filled response with a reply immediately. Give me a
break.
Alexander Chamandy
public. My lack of immediate response was due to the fact that I was
in a meeting.
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:00:02 -0700, Theo de Raadt
<der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> IT DOES NOT SAY YOU CAN SELL THEM.
It never said you could not sell them either. The ambiguity was
corrected recently which obviously means you were also uncertain of
its clarity. I also clearly state on
http://www.cafepress.com/bsdfreak that all non-bsdfreak merchandise
will have all of its profits donated back to ther espective projects,
therefore it's not a commercial endeavor.
>
> PERIOD.
>
> YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COPYRIGHT LAW.
You're right, I'm not an attorney. Neither are you.
> WANT A LAW SUIT, OR DO YOU WANT THIS IN PUBLIC?
Do I want a law suit? No. But, if you file one I'll be forced to
defend myself accordingly.
> YOU MAY NOT MAKE MONEY OFF SOMETHING SOMEONE ELSE HAS UNDER
> COPYRIGHT LAW UNLESS YOU ARE GRANTED PERMISSION
>
> YOU WERE NOT GRANTED PERMISSION!
You granted a worldwide license to use the imagery as seen on:
http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
http://www.openbsd.org/art4.html
And was originally on http://www.openbsd.org/art1.html until very recently.
> I REPEAT
>
> IF THERE IS NO FUCKING POLICY WHICH SAYS YOU MAY MAKE
> MONEY OFF IT
>
> THEN YOU MAY NOT!
>
> THAT IS THE FUCKING LAW.
There is no need for this brash tone or an e-mail in all capital
letters to express your position. The matter is settled, I apologized
and you continue to bash me. I was simply attempting to raise funds
for the OpenBSD project since they needed a new CVS server. I've also
posted several very positive OpenBSD articles on the BSDFreak site and
encouraged people to donate to OpenBSD. Obviously if you can't afford
a new CVS server, you cannot afford to battle in court. Don't ruin
OpenBSD's image over a silly misunderstanding.
> > Return-Path: bsdf...@gmail.com
> > Delivery-Date: Fri Mar 25 12:54:32 2005
> > Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201])
> > by cvs.openbsd.org (8.13.3/8.12.1) with ESMTP id j2PJsUmI031188
> > for <der...@cvs.openbsd.org>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:54:31 -0700 (MST)
> > Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so44859rns
> > for <der...@cvs.openbsd.org>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:53:39 -0800 (PST)
> > DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
> > s=beta; d=gmail.com;
> > h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references;
> > b=XQRWV3ioWGtTLJR8Zqi4thkCNBJM3sJTyGs6zp8kRbLBDHItnsNfsSw1jtCU4eV/F5Oc6Z4x6WAzQAtu49ss76OBhrAFRn5RI3FW6XBcr2C0OHpsSJKoCdsL0S9EsZdxQlC7ag9bFgOprMRm9/wxmUoUWSwSYZaTdc8/sclWlE8=
> > Received: by 10.38.206.25 with SMTP id d25mr271060rng;
> > Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:53:39 -0800 (PST)
> > Received: by 10.38.179.44 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:53:39 -0800 (PST)
> > Message-ID: <f420b2a105032...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:53:39 -0500
> > From: Alexander Chamandy <bsdf...@gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: Alexander Chamandy <bsdf...@gmail.com>
> > To: Theo de Raadt <der...@cvs.openbsd.org>, se...@bsdfreak.org
> > Subject: Re: 3.7 CD & tshirt & poster pre-orders
> > In-Reply-To: <200503251936....@cvs.openbsd.org>
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > References: <f420b2a105032...@mail.gmail.com>
> > <200503251936....@cvs.openbsd.org>
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:36:12 -0700, Theo de Raadt
> > <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700, Theo de Raadt
> > > > <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > > > Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
> > > > > either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
> > > > > a quick buck, right?
> > > >
> > > > Those are some pretty strong accusations.
> > >
> > > You violated our copyright. That is a FIRM accusation, and you
> > > are guilty. You had NO RIGHT to take our pictures and try to
> > > sell them.
> >
> > Your art copyright notice cleary said:
> >
> > Most images provided here are copyright by OpenBSD, by Theo de Raadt,
> > or by other members or developers of the OpenBSD group. However, it is
> > our intent that anyone be able to use these images to represent
> > OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let the world see them,
> > if that is your wish.
> >
> > By saying "However, it is our intent that anyone be able to use these
> > images to represent OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let
> > the world see them, if that is your wish." you seem to be granting a
> > non-exclusive worldwide license to the public to use, distribute and
> > possibly profit from your imagery without recourse. That was your own
> > web site that says that:
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art4.html
> >
> > There is no clearly defined policy about the use of your artwork.
> > Only recently did you update the policy here:
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art1.html
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > The site clearly says that
> > > > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > > > donated back to the respective communities.
> > >
> > > And I NEVER gave you permission to do that. You did NOT try to ask
> > > me if you were allowed to, and thus you VIOLATED THE COPYRIGHT.
> > >
> > > If you don't understand copyright, you still have NO EXCUSE.
> > >
> > > > Oh, and we didn't make
> > > > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > > > whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests.
> > >
> > > I would like to see such proof.
> >
> > 1/26/2005 1/22/2005 bsdfreak 13348188 Christian Tielitz , DE
> > 16037160: BSDFreak Messenger Bag (yellow) 1 18.99 1.00 1.00
> > 1/26/2005 1/22/2005 bsdfreak 13348188 Christian Tielitz , DE
> > 15297939: BSDFreak Ash Grey T-Shirt 1 14.99 0.00 0.00
> > 1/26/2005 1/22/2005 bsdfreak 13348188 Christian Tielitz , DE
> > 16037166: BSDFreak Sticker (Rectangular) 2 2.49 0.50 1.00
> >
> > Those are our only sales. We only put up the shop recently.
> >
> > >
> > > > I was
> > > > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD.
> > >
> > > You are NOT ALLOWED to use Copyrighted materials without *SPECIFICALLY
> > > GRANTED PERMISSION*.
> >
> > You spefically grant the general public permission to use the images
> > in any way they see fit!
> >
> > >
> > > >I heard about the CVS
> > > > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > > > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > > > any misunderstanding.
> > >
> > > There is no misunderstanding. You *CANNOT* use our art without
> > > permission, under copyright law.
> >
> > Copyright law that you knowingly seem to void the protections of.
> > Without actually defending your copyright and mark, you dillute them.
> > You're giving them away to the public and have been for how long?
> >
> >
> > Why does every encounter I have with you have to be a confrontation
> > where accusations go flying? Can we not discuss this issue like
> > adults? Clearly there was a simple misunderstanding.
Jan Izary
implied right is to use the images for yourself, not for sales. It is
alright to make a shirt, but not to sell one; make posters and put them on
walls, but do not sell them.
That there was no information specifically forbidding this type of usage was
a mistake on Theo's part, as it is an assumed part of copyright.
Either way the law falls, it isn't cool to take someone elses work and sell
something derived from it unless it permission is specifically granted and
nowhere have I seen a BSD license on the art pages saying that it applies to
the works.
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Theo de Raadt
> > > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> > > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > > any misunderstanding.
> >
> >
> > 1) He used our OpenBSD artwork without permission.
>
> Permission is granted on the site
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
Not to make money. You better learn copyright law.
> > 2) Our artwork is copyrighted by me (or other members of the project).
>
> Whether you like it or not, the site grants a non-exclusive license to
> the public to use your copyrighted works.
It does NOT PERMIT SALE.
> > 3) The web site says you can use our artwork in an OpenBSD-favorable
> > way.
>
> Which obviously it was favorable. There was no bashing of OpenBSD.
> If it was the original artwork, which you claim it was, then if it
> wasn't favorable that is something to take up with your artists.
You may not sell it. Such permission is not granted.
> > 4) NOWHERE is permission given to sell our artwork.
>
> "[..] it is our intent that anyone be able to use these images to
> represent OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let the world
> see them, if that is your wish."
>
> That was my wish, to let the world see them. There is no clause
> forbidding any sort of sale. http://www.cafepress.com/bsdfreak
> clearly states profits will be remitted back to the project of origin.
> That would mean you get the money we make off of OpenBSD garb.
There is no need for there to be a clause that lets you sell it.
Under copyright law, you cannot sell something unless permission is
granted. Perhaps you had better go do some learning.
> > 5) Copyright law has been explained here so many times by now, it should
> > be abundantly clear. If you are not given permission, you do NOT
> > HAVE IT.
>
> You are not an attorney, neither am I. Whomever explained it may well
> not have been either. What this comes down to is a simple
> misunderstanding.
I meet with them often and drink beer, and discuss how things work. I
get free legal advice. You don't know a THING about copyright law,
as is evidenced from everything that has gone by.
By all means, call the lady at cafepress -- ask her!
> > 2) He never asked for permission. (By the way, I get about one
> > request for permission a week, and I normally grant it -- it
> > depends of course)
>
> There were several other CafePress shops selling the same sort of
> items as well as various other sites on the Internet.
There was one other site doing so, and the lady at cafepress took
it down at the same time as she took down yours.
> I didn't ask
> for permission because the Art page seemed pretty clear about the
> policy.
It is clear, and it was clear -- you cannot sell it! That is how
copyright law works
YOU MORON!
> You recently updated it because you yourself must have
> thought it was unclear.
Yes, and now it is more clear, but it does not change the fact that
YOU CANNOT SELL IT UNLESS YOU ARE GRANTED PERMISSION.
> > 3) We make money off our tshirt sales, and do not see the need to
> > make more tshirts at a place that takes 80% of the profits for
> > themselves -- ie. cafepress.
>
> If you do, than congratulations. However, if I'm reaching a market
> that you don't, than obviously that profit can be put to good use. In
> that, if my customers (which I actually had none, there were NO SALES
> of OpenBSD merchandise) were not yours and did not in any way
> interfere with yours then you get priceless marketing exposure AND
> money. Win/win situation.
That does not matter since you are NOT ALLOWED TO SELL IT.
> > 4) Even if we wanted to do such a thing, why would we use a middle-man
> > like Alexander? Why Alexander, would we not have done this ourselves?
>
> Because of what I mentioned above. Good PR is priceless. This little
> tyrade you're going on is very bad PR.
That still does not change the fact that you MAY NOT SELL OUR ARTWORK.
> > 5) I've seen lots of people try to do exactly the same thing and say
> > "I want to give the money to OpenBSD". Yet it has never happened.
>
> Yet you assume I'm guilty until proven innocent? Why would you give
> anyone else permission if you claim this is the case?
You are guilty, because you were attempting to SELL OUR ARTWORK WITHOUT
PERMISSION.
> > 6) When I contacted cafepress, their lawyer agreed with me. Not with
> > Alexander.
>
> Their lawyer actually never discussed the matter directly with me.
But they shut you down, so that is that.
> I
> have no problem not selling OpenBSD merchandise and not encouraging
> people to donate to OpenBSD, if that's what you really want. In the
> past I've passionately tried to encourage people to donate, given
> OpenBSD a lot of press. BSDFreak is not some fly-by-night news site,
> we get over 500,000 hits a month from a wide audience and are quickly
> emerging as a top contender in the BSD news community. Your
> willingness to alienate a potential ally is not taken with a grain of
> salt.
All that matters is that you may NOT SELL OUR ARTWORK.
Perhaps you should not have alienated us by TRYING TO SELL OUR ARTWORK.
> You also didn't show their lawyer your little "license" on the art
> page. You just outright cried bloody murder for all to see. I'll
> send an original copy of the e-mail you sent them if necessary.
I did not need to show her anything; she searched and could find
NOTHING on our web site which *explicitly* said that you or cafepress
was allowed to sell our artwork.
Hence it was taken down.
> > Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
>
> No more or less than you violated the NetBSD copyrights, several times.
I have not violated any copyrights.
Since you know nothing about copyright, your assertions are laughable.
> > You say that you are a BSD web site, and that you understand why we
> > all do this, yet you cannot even pay attention to copyright law --
> > the basis under which we make much of our work free (but not all).
>
> You claim that you are a BSD project, but you regularly alienate
> users, supporters and contributors.
No, we regularily beat up on ASSHOLES WHO STEAL FROM US. We make lots
of things available for free, out of a labour of love, and then people
assume they can STOMP over the rest of our rights.
> You tell people not to use
> OpenBSD based on your own inability to control your frustration.
> You'll readily bash anyone on the grounds that they don't agree with
> you.
I don't care if people use it, especially when they are copyright thieves
like you
> > Shame on you.
>
> Shame on you, as well.
As a victim of copyright theft at your hands, I feel no shame.
> > (I only reply in this fashion because Alexander sent me another mail
> > violently asserting that what he did was right, which utterly astounds
> > me)
>
> You replied in this fashion because I did not immediately grace your
> all-caps curse-filled response with a reply immediately. Give me a
> break.
People, look --
We make a lot of stuff available for free.
We work very hard.
We attempt to differentiate ourselves a bit by using some art.
That art costs money.
We make that artwork so that we can capitalize on it to make more
money for the project.
We gave noone permission to make money (for themselves or for us)
by using that art.
It is entirely clear. This has happened before, too.
It is perfectly clear what happened here.
bsdfreak claims to be a site that believes in helping the BSD projects.
That is false.
Now Alexander, please leave us alone.
Alexander Chamandy
<der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > > Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
> > > > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > > > donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
> > > > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > > > whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
> > > > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> > > > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > > > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > > > any misunderstanding.
> > >
> > > So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
> > >
> > > 1) He used our OpenBSD artwork without permission.
> >
> > Permission is granted on the site
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
>
> Not to make money. You better learn copyright law.
I "better learn" copyright law? You should learn English before you
lecture me on legal matters.
>
> > > 2) Our artwork is copyrighted by me (or other members of the project).
> >
> > Whether you like it or not, the site grants a non-exclusive license to
> > the public to use your copyrighted works.
>
> It does NOT PERMIT SALE.
Nor does it forbid sale.
You obviously have Canadian lawyers then. I would assume that they
are not admitted to to any US Federal bar association? So, you know
about Canadian copyright law from Canadian lawyers. Congratulations.
The alleged violation occured in the US, not Canada, but I assume you
already know about legal venues, copyright litigation costs and all of
that so I need not lecture you.
>
> By all means, call the lady at cafepress -- ask her!
Sure, why not. While I'm at it why don't you pass on your lawyer's
contact information, too, if they exist that is.
> > > 2) He never asked for permission. (By the way, I get about one
> > > request for permission a week, and I normally grant it -- it
> > > depends of course)
> >
> > There were several other CafePress shops selling the same sort of
> > items as well as various other sites on the Internet.
>
> There was one other site doing so, and the lady at cafepress took
> it down at the same time as she took down yours.
>
> > I didn't ask
> > for permission because the Art page seemed pretty clear about the
> > policy.
>
> It is clear, and it was clear -- you cannot sell it! That is how
> copyright law works
>
> YOU MORON!
I'm sure you know slander and defamation of character is illegal, too,
and you've just made yourself liable.
To presume I'm "guilty" is to act as though there has been some sort
of trial. There has not and there won't be. If you bring this to
court, congratulations on wasting your time and money.
> > > 6) When I contacted cafepress, their lawyer agreed with me. Not with
> > > Alexander.
> >
> > Their lawyer actually never discussed the matter directly with me.
>
> But they shut you down, so that is that.
You're right, they did. That's about the only thing you've been right
about, though.
> > I
> > have no problem not selling OpenBSD merchandise and not encouraging
> > people to donate to OpenBSD, if that's what you really want. In the
> > past I've passionately tried to encourage people to donate, given
> > OpenBSD a lot of press. BSDFreak is not some fly-by-night news site,
> > we get over 500,000 hits a month from a wide audience and are quickly
> > emerging as a top contender in the BSD news community. Your
> > willingness to alienate a potential ally is not taken with a grain of
> > salt.
>
> All that matters is that you may NOT SELL OUR ARTWORK.
Why stop there?
> Perhaps you should not have alienated us by TRYING TO SELL OUR ARTWORK.
That's the most baseless and ridiculous thing I've ever heard from
you, and there has been a myriad of Theo quotes that are incredibly
amusing.
> > You also didn't show their lawyer your little "license" on the art
> > page. You just outright cried bloody murder for all to see. I'll
> > send an original copy of the e-mail you sent them if necessary.
>
> I did not need to show her anything; she searched and could find
> NOTHING on our web site which *explicitly* said that you or cafepress
> was allowed to sell our artwork.
>
> Hence it was taken down.
>
> > > Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
> >
> > No more or less than you violated the NetBSD copyrights, several times.
>
> I have not violated any copyrights.
>
> Since you know nothing about copyright, your assertions are laughable.
Since you live in Canada, may be slightly familiar with Canadian law,
perhaps have some sort of lawyer that is not admitted to any US bar
associations, I seriously doubt you are familiar with US copyright
law. I do know you've bashed it in the past WRT DMCA, which is the
same protections you claim you're assisted by now. How ironic.
> > > You say that you are a BSD web site, and that you understand why we
> > > all do this, yet you cannot even pay attention to copyright law --
> > > the basis under which we make much of our work free (but not all).
> >
> > You claim that you are a BSD project, but you regularly alienate
> > users, supporters and contributors.
>
> No, we regularily beat up on ASSHOLES WHO STEAL FROM US. We make lots
> of things available for free, out of a labour of love, and then people
> assume they can STOMP over the rest of our rights.
Your CDs, t-shirts, demands for donations for the CVS server are all
not free. People assume they can stomp on your rights because you
clearly do not properly defend your copyrights or your trademark (if
it's even registered, I haven't bothered to check). The fact of the
matter is, you let people stomp on your rights and by doing so, you
weaken them considerably.
> > You tell people not to use
> > OpenBSD based on your own inability to control your frustration.
> > You'll readily bash anyone on the grounds that they don't agree with
> > you.
>
> I don't care if people use it, especially when they are copyright thieves
> like you
You would care if your revenue dried up, which it seems it is, slowly
but surely.
> > > Shame on you.
> >
> > Shame on you, as well.
>
> As a victim of copyright theft at your hands, I feel no shame.
You've never felt any shame for any of the horrible things you've said
to people, have you?
> > > (I only reply in this fashion because Alexander sent me another mail
> > > violently asserting that what he did was right, which utterly astounds
> > > me)
> >
> > You replied in this fashion because I did not immediately grace your
> > all-caps curse-filled response with a reply immediately. Give me a
> > break.
>
> People, look --
>
> We make a lot of stuff available for free.
And you make a lot of stuff available for money.
> We work very hard...
... At alienating your supporters
> We attempt to differentiate ourselves a bit by using some art....
... That is protected under the DMCA and is not to be used by anyone.
> That art costs money....
.... Money that I should be spending on beer to have with my Canadian lawyers.
(really, though, do you think all the money is properly allocated when
the head hancho is so selfish and hateful? .. if he doesn't care who
uses the OS, why would he care if he spent it on a new car?)
> We make that artwork so that we can capitalize on it to make more
> money for the project.
(Money for Theo to live on because he does not have a job, his
profession is trolling his own mailing lists and going all over the
world to promote anti-BSD unity politics.
>
> We gave noone permission to make money (for themselves or for us)
> by using that art.
Except that the license was ambiguous and therefore you changed it.
Your uncertainty created room for speculation at the very least.
> It is entirely clear. This has happened before, too.
And it will happen again until you stop giving it away and telling
people it's free.
> It is perfectly clear what happened here.
It is, you claim you have lawyers, but you have an unclear copyright
license. You claim you're well versed in the law, but if you are why
does this keep happening?
> bsdfreak claims to be a site that believes in helping the BSD projects.
> That is false.
It's "false"? You have absolutely no way to prove such a baseless
allegation. We deliver news, forums, downloads, links and other
content. We have helped create recognition for the BSD projects out
there and you know this is true. Regardless of how you attempt to
defame the character of BSDFreak, you will know that you're nothing
more than a bullshitter who thrives off of conflict.
> Now Alexander, please leave us alone.
Chris
Ought this be taken off list? Just a thought.
--
Best regards,
Chris
If you plan to leave your mark in the sands of time,
you better wear work shoes.
Alexander Chamandy
Aaron Glenn
<bsdf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BSDFreak is not some fly-by-night news site, we get over 500,000 hits
> a month from a wide audience and are quickly emerging as a top
> contender in the BSD news community. Your willingness to alienate a
> potential ally is not taken with a grain of salt.
You're kidding, right?
Ben Goren
is a liar, even if they are a lawyer.
On 2005 Mar 25, at 5:45 PM, Alexander Chamandy wrote:
>> It does NOT PERMIT SALE.
>
> Nor does it forbid sale.
Sorry, it *does* forbid sale.
First, under U.S. copyright law, the act of creation is all that's
necessary to establish copyright. Doodle something on your napkin at a
restaurant, and it's copyrighted and you hold the copyright (assuming
you aren't making an infringing copy of somebody else's copyrighted
work).
Second, the owner of a copyrighted work has certain *EXCLUSIVE* rights.
Those rights are inherent in the law; the mere fact that you have a
copyright means that you have those rights. Included in those rights is
the doctrine of first sale--that is, you have the exclusive right to be
the first person to sell a copy of your work. (Somebody can buy your
copy and sell that copy. They can't buy your copy, make more copies,
and sell those.)
It is possible to grant permissions to others to do what the law
otherwise forbids. You may place restrictions on your grant of
permissions; for example, you may decide to only let people sell copies
of your work if their last names end in ``n.'' Whatever--it's up to
you. If you made such a grant, you still wouldn't have the right to
sell copies of the work if your last name ended in ``m,'' even if you
gave the gross proceeds to the copyright holder.
The courts have made it very clear that, in the case of ambiguities,
the rights remain with the copyright holder. If I said, ``You may sell
my work if your name has a pleasing sound,'' you would still have no
right to sell my work unless you had something specific from me that
said your name sounded nice.
Specifically:
> Most images provided here are copyright by OpenBSD, by Theo de Raadt,
> or by other members or developers of the OpenBSD group. However, it is
> our intent that anyone be able to use these images to represent
> OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let the world see them,
> if that is your wish.
This says that you may ``let the world see'' the images, but it doesn't
say that you can charge admission.
So, as far as copyright law is concerned, you have the legal right to
paint Puffy on the Moon. You don't have the right to sell commemorative
Puffy Moon coasters.
Cheers,
b&
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig]
Dan Becker
<bsdf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:20:21 -0700, Theo de Raadt
> <der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
> > > > > Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
> > > > > all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
> > > > > donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
> > > > > *ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
> > > > > whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
> > > > > simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
> > > > > server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
> > > > > and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
> > > > > any misunderstanding.
> > > >
> > > > So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
> > > >
> > > > 1) He used our OpenBSD artwork without permission.
> > >
> > > Permission is granted on the site
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsd.org/art2.html
> > >
> > > http://www.openbsd.org/art3.html
> >
> > Not to make money. You better learn copyright law.
>
> I "better learn" copyright law? You should learn English before you
> lecture me on legal matters.
>
> >
> > > > 2) Our artwork is copyrighted by me (or other members of the project).
> > >
> > > Whether you like it or not, the site grants a non-exclusive license to
> > > the public to use your copyrighted works.
> >
>
> Nor does it forbid sale.
>
> > > > way.
> > >
> > > Which obviously it was favorable. There was no bashing of OpenBSD.
> > > If it was the original artwork, which you claim it was, then if it
> > > wasn't favorable that is something to take up with your artists.
> >
> > You may not sell it. Such permission is not granted.
> > > > 4) NOWHERE is permission given to sell our artwork.
> > >
> > > represent OpenBSD in a positive light. So enjoy them and let the world
> > > see them, if that is your wish."
> > >
> > > we get over 500,000 hits a month from a wide audience and are quickly
> > > emerging as a top contender in the BSD news community. Your
> > > willingness to alienate a potential ally is not taken with a grain of
> > > salt.
> >
> Best wishes,
>
> Alexander G. Chamandy
> Webmaster
> www.bsdfreak.org
> Your Source For BSD News!
>
>
what amazes me about this entire thread is simply the fact laws are
put in place to regulate those individuals who dont have the common
decency to do what they are asked in regards to another mans property
decency alone should dictate a quiet withdrawl instead of lawyer this
and lawyer that
just my 2 cents
Breen Ouellette
>On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 01:15:34PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
>
>>>On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700, Theo de Raadt
>>><der...@cvs.openbsd.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yeah, and you did not think of ripping us off at cafepress.com
>>>>either by submitting our copyrighted artwork to try to make
>>>>a quick buck, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Those are some pretty strong accusations. The site clearly says that
>>>all profits generated from non-BSDFreak logo'd merchandise will be
>>>donated back to the respective communities. Oh, and we didn't make
>>>*ANY* money off of OpenBSD merchandise and I'm willing to send you
>>>whatever proof you deem necessary to satisfy your interests. I was
>>>simply trying to raise some money for OpenBSD. I heard about the CVS
>>>server problems, the lowered CD sales and the other monetary problems
>>>and figured I'd try to raise some cash for you guys. I apologize for
>>>any misunderstanding.
>>>
>>>
>>So Alexander wants this in public, here goes:
>>
>>
>
><snip>
>
>
>
>>Alexander and/or Sean violated the OpenBSD copyrights.
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, Theo, hate to burst your bubble here, but I wouldn't put the OpenBSD
>logo on ANYTHING even if OpenBSD paid ME. Your attitude is only matched by
>the low quality of your software, and accusing Alex of ripping you off
>
>
^^^^
This has to be the stupidest thing I've heard all month, matched only by
the idiocy of posting it to mi...@openbsd.org. OpenBSD software is of an
extremely high quality, and I'm sure it surpasses anything you have
every done by a factor of at least 100.
>amuses me, considering OpenBSD is nothing more than a glorified ripoff
>itself, and always has been. Leave me out of this. Alex is a bit more
>open-minded, which, it seems, you don't like. Too bad. Life goes on. I'm
>sure he'll be more than happy to donate the $0.00 he made from OpenBSD
>merchandise to OpenBSD.
>
>- Sean
>
>
You certainly are wasting your time coming to mi...@openbsd.org and
making statements like this. I doubt a single person here will agree
with your statements, and more likely you are just reinforcing in all of
us the idea that you are a superior ass, unmatched by any other.
Breeno
Sean Davis
I posted it to misc@ because the post making unfounded accusations against
me was posted to misc@. No other reason. And your defensive attitude re:
OpenBSD software's quality only serves to strengthen my opinion :)
Your blind arrogance in defense of OpenBSD reminds me of all the Linux
zealots.
>
>
> >amuses me, considering OpenBSD is nothing more than a glorified ripoff
> >itself, and always has been. Leave me out of this. Alex is a bit more
> >open-minded, which, it seems, you don't like. Too bad. Life goes on. I'm
> >sure he'll be more than happy to donate the $0.00 he made from OpenBSD
> >merchandise to OpenBSD.
> >
> >- Sean
> >
> >
> You certainly are wasting your time coming to mi...@openbsd.org and
> making statements like this. I doubt a single person here will agree
> with your statements, and more likely you are just reinforcing in all of
> us the idea that you are a superior ass, unmatched by any other.
Oh, I am not a superior ass. Your leader, Theo, is an ass unmatched by any
other. I couldn't be as big of an arrogant prick as he is if I spent years
in classes learning how :-)
- Sean
--
_
( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign
X
/ \ For Plain Text Email
Siegbert Marschall
>
> (Money for Theo to live on because he does not have a job, his
> profession is trolling his own mailing lists and going all over the
> world to promote anti-BSD unity politics.
Shut up idiot, you have no idea what you are talking about.
It would be very nice if Theo could afford to buy let's say a nice private
Jet from the money OpenBSD is generating. I would still buy the CDs and
T-Shirts and make donations.
You know why ? Because OpenBSD is worth more.
You know nothing, have no clue and courtesy, not even the common sense
to ask before acting, just go away.
Thanks to all the people who make OpenBSD happen.
Peter Galbavy
> Nor does it forbid sale.
As someone who is not a legal professional but has been researching this
area in an international context quite a lot recently for a completely
different personal project, I can say quite confidently that:
It doesn't need to.
Copyright law, through various international conventions and treaties,
gives the copyright owner certain *exclusive* rights, a number of which
effectively includes the right to commercial explotation through
publication and reproduction. The copyright owner may grant permissions
to others, as through a license, to perform certain acts in relation to
the works. You do not grant *all* rights just by granting certain types.
Want me to get off the sofa while drinking my breakfast coffee to get
the books off the shelf and quote references ?
Peter
Scott Fraser
Mr. Chamandy, please shut the fsck up.
Now before you think this is troll bait, I'd like to inform you of a
few minor points in economics.
1. Open Source projects are not free. Although the downloads, use and
availability of source-code may be free, it takes time, and sometimes
money to produce the project. A project like OpenBSD takes a LOT of
man-hours to produce. It takes a lot of money to maintain the web-site
(broadband access, hard-drives, computers, etc). The cost to actually
produce the CDs, Posters, and T-shirts all costs money.
Having met Theo at a couple of conferences over the years, I didn't get
the impression he was running around in a brand-new Porsche and living
the easy life.
2. In order to insure a quality product is produced, a software project
needs a team lead. It's needs someone responsible for Quality
Assurance. It needs people and man-hours to achieve these tasks. Just
because people donate time to do these tasks in their free time or make
it their personal primary job, again it doesn't mean people shouldn't
get paid for their effort.
Scott Fraser
message by accident.
As Mr. Marschall so wonderfully put it, although bluntly:
Mr. Chamandy, please shut the fsck up.
Now before you think this is troll bait, I'd like to inform you of a
few minor points in economics.
1. Open Source projects are not free. Although the downloads, use and
availability of source-code may be free, it takes time, and sometimes
money to produce the project. A project like OpenBSD takes a LOT of
man-hours to produce. It takes a lot of money to maintain the web-site
(broadband access, hard-drives, computers, etc). The cost to actually
produce the CDs, Posters, and T-shirts all costs money.
Having met Theo at a couple of conferences over the years, I didn't get
the impression he was running around in a brand-new Porsche and living
the easy life.
2. In order to insure a quality product is produced, a software project
needs a team lead. It's needs someone responsible for Quality
Assurance. It needs people and man-hours to achieve these tasks. Just
because people donate time to do these tasks in their free time or make
it their personal primary job, again it doesn't mean people shouldn't
get paid for their effort.
given the ignorance of your statement and I quote " his profession is
trolling his own mailing lists and going all over the world to promote
anti-BSD unity politic" you leave me (and bet a lot of us here) making
a few assumptions.
Are you some university student who has no-clue about the real world?
You know, living off of mommy and daddies money while you attempt to
get a degree or living on student loans? One of those kids who pirates
movies, music and software all day, and figures that's all okay? Or
maybe you're some comp-sci drop-outs forced to work in computer retail
store because you couldn't cut it as a real programmer or systems
admin. Perhaps you're just one of those luser script-kiddies
wanna-be-hackers and you got booted off of the Elite channel. Beats me,
but you show a real lack of maturity in your message.
Myself, I have worked on open source projects for over 12 years now. I
am a huge advocate of open source. I also buy my copies of OpenBSD,
FreeBSD, and Debian GNU/Linux when I need them. I am happy to pay for a
quality product. As CIO of a tech company, it's my job to recommend
technology that will deliver and meet the companies needs. I have never
once been asked "why are we paying for this when it's a free download".
My boss understands that it's worth supporting a project that allows
our company to do business. And personally, for all the hard work Theo
and the rest of group of put in, I'd love to see the project make
enough that they could all go on vacation for a couple of weeks with
their families. Of course if they did that, you'd be emailing the list
asking "where are the experts, I need help". I have always found it
nice, that I can talk with actual developers when I have a problem. And
for the record NOT all open source software has this.
Anyways, just my two cents. Again, this was not troll-bait.
To the OpenBSD group. Take care, and I look forward to CMSI ordering
the next 3.7 stuff.
Sincerely,
Scott Fraser
Dunceor .
>have no problem not selling OpenBSD merchandise and not encouraging
>people to donate to OpenBSD, if that's what you really want. In the
>past I've passionately tried to encourage people to donate, given
>OpenBSD a lot of press. BSDFreak is not some fly-by-night news site,
>we get over 500,000 hits a month from a wide audience and are quickly
>emerging as a top contender in the BSD news community. Your
>willingness to alienate a potential ally is not taken with a grain of
>salt.
Hmm pretty funny that you get 500k hits per month when you can't even
have the domain up?