errors & omissions
Jeff L.
I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions
insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a
few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like
overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying
thing?
Jeff
George Dinwiddie
How much was E&O insurance?
I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers'
Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a
one-man company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 a
year, and, while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O market
more than if I was writing code for clients.
- George
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Langr
Ron Jeffries
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions
> insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a
> few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like
> overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying
> thing?
I have had a few clients require GL and E&O. These days I carry
neither. Not sure what Chet carries: I often operate under his flag.
When I was first asked to carry insurance, I almost fired the client
on the spot. Today, I likely would.
Also keep the hell off my lawn.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Design is the thinking one does before, during, and after
implementation. It works best for me with a little up front, most of
it during implementation, and very little after it's too late.
Yves Hanoulle
--
Yves Hanoulle
Phone 00 32 467 43 38 32
Blog: www.Hanoulle.be
Agile Games: http://www.AgileGames.org
Coaching Question Of the Day: http://twitter.com/Retroflection
Jon Kern
taxes) into the contract price.
govt raises taxes on gas at the pump, gas prices rise by exactly that
amount (shocking, I know).
if it costs more to be a OBGYN due to having to spend millions on
insurance, guess how much it costs to deliver a baby.
if they demand you carry $1000 of insurance, guess who gets to pay?
jon
blog: http://technicaldebt.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/JonKernPA
Jeff L. said the following on 6/13/11 1:10 PM:
George Dinwiddie
I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of
working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil
liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call
my insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
Of course, they were lying about the issue and weren't interested.
- George
On 6/13/11 4:53 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
> Hi George,
>
> E&O was I think $1000 at the time. I know my liability went up a good
> deal (from $350 to $425) last year, so no doubt that's more too.
>
> I agree--I didn't think there was enough risk for a coach to warrant
> E&O, but I wasn't getting the gig (and a number of followups that easily
> made it worth the price) without it. There's probably something to be
> said for turning down the client, but that can be tough to do at times.
>
> Jeff
> Langr Software Solutions
> je...@langrsoft.com <mailto:je...@langrsoft.com>
Yves Hanoulle
Like Jon Kern, I just treat it as a case of the Orange Juice Test.
I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call my insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
Nayan Hajratwala
Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. i.e. Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much of these days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being baked into my rate. Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
Yves Hanoulle
Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years. They're super-easy and efficient to work with. I think "The Hartford" is the underwriter.
Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. i.e. Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much of these days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being baked into my rate.
Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
>
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions
> insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a
> few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like
> overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying
> thing?
>
> Jeff
>
Don Gray
> Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years.
I also use tech insurance. I've carried E&O for a couple of years. I
make sure my rates cover the extra cost.
--
Don Gray (336)414-4645
http://www.donaldegray.com
We do not rise to the level of our expectations.
We fall to the level of our training.
Author Unknown
Raise your training level at the AYE Conference
AYE: Exploring Human Systems in Action http://www.AYEconference.com
Oct 30 - Nov 3, 2011
Jon Kern
jon
blog: http://technicaldebt.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/JonKernPA
George Dinwiddie said the following on 6/13/11 11:10 PM:
Jeff Langr
Jeff Langr
Jeff Langr
Yup, I've been with techinsurance also since around 2005; you are indeed
paying $425 as am I for general liability (and it is the Hartford doing the
underwriting). Of course that's baked into the cost of doing business--I was
more curious about those who have chosen to (or been asked to) carry the E&O
policy, which seems costly and unnecessary.
Most companies don't even ask about the general liability, but it seems
probably sensible to have, even when doing business with the small guys (which
is usually more rewarding anyway).
Jeff Langr
However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to charge you $1000 more."
Jeff
Jeff Langr
George Dinwiddie
local insurance agent, and I'm paying a bit more for it ($750 this
year). Perhaps we should compare coverage sometime (if I can figure out
what coverage I actually have).
- George
--
George Dinwiddie
> Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based"
> pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
>
> However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer
> asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to
> charge you $1000 more."
It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms
under which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I
do so in exchange for other terms that are valuable to me. For example,
I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment. I think there are too
many possibilities to permit publicly advertising a rate.
- George
Dale Emery
I did have one replacement manager insist I interview one of his subpar team members, with the intent to determine whether or not the schlub should keep his job.
Dale Emery
Consultant to software teams and leaders
Web: http://dhemery.com
Yves Hanoulle
On 6/14/11 12:14 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms under which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I do so in exchange for other terms that are valuable to me.
Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based"
pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer
asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to
charge you $1000 more."
For example, I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment.
I think there are too many possibilities to permit publicly advertising a rate.
- George
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Langr
Yves Hanoulle
I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when pressed for a daily rate.
Don Gray
>
> Do you carry because you feel it's needed, or do enough customers insist on it?
Others insist I carry it. I'd drop it otherwise.
I understand and agree with those who don't/won't carry it.
I prefer to choose my battles. If I insist on NOT carrying E&O for
whatever reason, and my sponsor can't get it waived, I'm of no use. It
may turn out I'm of no use, but we'll have had a go at it.
As someone pointed out, I find it's the larger clients that want this
"security blanket". Smaller clients don't bat an eye.
I do carry General (also know as Contractor's) Liability. I've been
visiting client sites since 1990, so I'm used to this.
I have dodged the "you MUST have Workmen's Comp" so far.
--
Don Gray (336)414-4645
http://www.donaldegray.com
He who knows others is clever;
He who knows himself is enlightened.
Lao-Tzu
Learn about yourself at the AYE Conference
George Dinwiddie
> I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a
> bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when
> pressed for a daily rate. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
I do give a daily rate when asked. Later in the discussions I talk
about what that daily rate is based on. If they want Net 45, for
example, I'll say "Oh, the rate I quoted was for Net 30. Because of the
time value of money, I have to ask a higher rate for slower payment."
The best gigs are ones where I quote a flat rate including my expenses.
It takes a little research for me to estimate my expenses, and I've
never done it for long-term gigs. But when I've done that, it's been
much less hassle than having to file expense reports.
Charlie Poole
I'm with you on the flat rate approach. I generally quote a single price per
visit, which covers both my travel and my living expenses while working
on site. I don't state the expenses separately so I don't have to be
terribly accurate in my estimate.
I also require half of the fee to be paid in advance. Clients understand that
I have to spend money to get to their site and work there for a few weeks,
so I haven't had any trouble with this requirement.
I also give a discount if they pay the full cost in advance.
Charlie
J. B. Rainsberger
> On 6/14/11 3:49 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
>>
>> I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a
>> bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when
>> pressed for a daily rate. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
>
> I do give a daily rate when asked. Later in the discussions I talk about
> what that daily rate is based on. If they want Net 45, for example, I'll
> say "Oh, the rate I quoted was for Net 30. Because of the time value of
> money, I have to ask a higher rate for slower payment."
>
> The best gigs are ones where I quote a flat rate including my expenses. It
> takes a little research for me to estimate my expenses, and I've never done
> it for long-term gigs. But when I've done that, it's been much less hassle
> than having to file expense reports.
+781. I haven't had a client insist yet on an expense report, but when
one does, I plan to include an "Expense report preparation fee" of
$500 right on the invoice.
--
J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: http://www.jbrains.ca ::
http://blog.thecodewhisperer.com
Diaspar Software Services :: http://www.diasparsoftware.com
Author, JUnit Recipes
2005 Gordon Pask Award for contribution to Agile practice :: Agile
2010: Learn. Practice. Explore.
J. B. Rainsberger
> I'm with you on the flat rate approach. I generally quote a single price per
> visit, which covers both my travel and my living expenses while working
> on site. I don't state the expenses separately so I don't have to be
> terribly accurate in my estimate.
>
> I also require half of the fee to be paid in advance. Clients understand
> that
> I have to spend money to get to their site and work there for a few weeks,
> so I haven't had any trouble with this requirement.
>
> I also give a discount if they pay the full cost in advance.
Taking Charlie's advice, I offer a full prepayment discount, usually
around 5%, and require a deposit, usually enough to cover all the
expected travel costs. Thank you, Charlie.
J. B. Rainsberger
> I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a
> bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when
> pressed for a daily rate. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Thanks for the
> recommendations!
Don't forget simply to say, "I don't have a standard daily rate."
Jon Kern
uses expensify -- absolutely love it!
jon
blog: http://technicaldebt.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/JonKernPA
George Dinwiddie said the following on 6/14/11 8:54 PM:
mheusser
"matt trips, falls, and breaks some lab equipment, and the insurance
company pays for it."
That is /not/ E&O, but instead personal liability. What I do isn't a
profession under the law, so E&O is inappropriate.
Total cost was $275/yr for $1Mil of insurance per incident, max $2Mil/
Year of coverage.
I don't publish rates, but I'm willing to quote a number if asked.
My current contract provides a flat fee "per day on-site" for travel
expenses. If I slept in a flophouse and ate hot dogs, I suppose I
could get by for less than the quoted amount, but for realistic living
expenses, they are getting a good deal. I'll probably lose a few
bucks a week, but I hate the receipt game too.
regards,
--heusser