For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions
insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a
few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like
overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying
thing?
I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers' Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a one-man company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 a year, and, while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O market more than if I was writing code for clients.
- George
On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > thing?
E&O was I think $1000 at the time. I know my liability went up a good deal (from $350 to $425) last year, so no doubt that's more too.
I agree--I didn't think there was enough risk for a coach to warrant E&O, but I wasn't getting the gig (and a number of followups that easily made it worth the price) without it. There's probably something to be said for turning down the client, but that can be tough to do at times.
> I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers' > Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a one-man > company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 a year, and, > while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
> I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O market more > than if I was writing code for clients.
> - George
> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
>> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
>> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions >> insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a >> few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like >> overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying >> thing?
Hello, Jeff. On Monday, June 13, 2011, at 1:10:36 PM, you wrote:
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > thing?
I have had a few clients require GL and E&O. These days I carry neither. Not sure what Chet carries: I often operate under his flag.
When I was first asked to carry insurance, I almost fired the client on the spot. Today, I likely would.
Also keep the hell off my lawn.
Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Design is the thinking one does before, during, and after implementation. It works best for me with a little up front, most of it during implementation, and very little after it's too late.
I ask them what specificaly they want me as a coach to be insured for. in other words, what risks they see me brining to their company for coaching them. untill know I never had anyone being able to answer this question: hen they all admit it's there because of programming risks if you are coaching development skills that is different of course)
> E&O was I think $1000 at the time. I know my liability went up a good deal > (from $350 to $425) last year, so no doubt that's more too.
> I agree--I didn't think there was enough risk for a coach to warrant E&O, > but I wasn't getting the gig (and a number of followups that easily made it > worth the price) without it. There's probably something to be said for > turning down the client, but that can be tough to do at times.
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:00 PM, George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com > > wrote:
>> Jeff,
>> How much was E&O insurance?
>> I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers' >> Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a one-man >> company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 a year, and, >> while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
>> I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O market more >> than if I was writing code for clients.
>> - George
>> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
>>> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
>>> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions >>> insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a >>> few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like >>> overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying >>> thing?
> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > thing?
Like Jon Kern, I just treat it as a case of the Orange Juice Test.
I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call my insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
Of course, they were lying about the issue and weren't interested.
> E&O was I think $1000 at the time. I know my liability went up a good > deal (from $350 to $425) last year, so no doubt that's more too.
> I agree--I didn't think there was enough risk for a coach to warrant > E&O, but I wasn't getting the gig (and a number of followups that easily > made it worth the price) without it. There's probably something to be > said for turning down the client, but that can be tough to do at times.
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:00 PM, George Dinwiddie > <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:li...@idiacomputing.com>> wrote:
> Jeff,
> How much was E&O insurance?
> I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers' > Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a > one-man company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 > a year, and, while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
> I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O > market more than if I was writing code for clients.
> - George
> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > thing?
2011/6/14 George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com>
> Like Jon Kern, I just treat it as a case of the Orange Juice Test.
> I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of > working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil > liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call my > insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
> I like that, they usually show/ask this after a so called agreement is
made. this is one of the reasons why I want to work form my own contract in the near future.
> Of course, they were lying about the issue and weren't interested.
> - George
> On 6/13/11 4:53 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
>> Hi George,
>> E&O was I think $1000 at the time. I know my liability went up a good >> deal (from $350 to $425) last year, so no doubt that's more too.
>> I agree--I didn't think there was enough risk for a coach to warrant >> E&O, but I wasn't getting the gig (and a number of followups that easily >> made it worth the price) without it. There's probably something to be >> said for turning down the client, but that can be tough to do at times.
>> Jeff >> Langr Software Solutions >> j...@langrsoft.com <mailto:j...@langrsoft.com>
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:00 PM, George Dinwiddie >> <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:lists@idiacomputing.**com<li...@idiacomputing.com>>> >> wrote:
>> Jeff,
>> How much was E&O insurance?
>> I've just got general business liability. I had to get Workers' >> Compensation insurance once to make a client happy, even though as a >> one-man company it was incapable of ever paying out. That was $200 >> a year, and, while stupid and needless, was cheaper to pay than fight.
>> I suspect that my coaching and training puts me out of the E&O >> market more than if I was writing code for clients.
>> - George
>> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote:
>> For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
>> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions >> insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a >> few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like >> overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying >> thing?
Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years. They're super-easy and efficient to work with. I think "The Hartford" is the underwriter.
Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. i.e. Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much of these days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being baked into my rate. Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
> On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote: > For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
> I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > thing?
> Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years. They're > super-easy and efficient to work with. I think "The Hartford" is the > underwriter.
> Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. i.e. > Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much of these > days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
> Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being baked into > my rate.
the rate of the insurance companies in belgium is based on yearly revenu so if you ask more money, they charge more ;-)
Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
> > On 6/13/11 1:10 PM, Jeff L. wrote: > > For the independent coaches here that run their own business...
> > I had a customer require that I carry an errors and omissions > > insurance policy a few years ago, but that was the only one ever (a > > few more require general liability, so I have that). Seems like > > overkill to me. Do any of you carry such an expensive and annoying > > thing?
> I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of > working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil > liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call > my insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
> Of course, they were lying about the issue and weren't interested.
> I ask them what specificaly they want me as a coach to be insured for. > in other words, what risks they see me brining to their company for > coaching them. > untill know I never had anyone being able to answer this question: hen they > all admit it's there because of programming risks > if you are coaching development skills that is different of course)
Any other good stories from coaches about customers trying to string you along?
I did have one replacement manager insist I interview one of his subpar team members, with the intent to determine whether or not the schlub should keep his job. I figured it was part of an attempt to get rid of me as interloper (brought on by his successor). It worked--I told him i wasn't coming back.
> George Dinwiddie said the following on 6/13/11 11:10 PM:
> I had a middleman tell me I had to become their employee (instead of >> working corp-to-corp) for a client because the client required $10mil >> liability and I only had $2mil. I told them, "No problem. Let me call my >> insurance agent and I'll give you my new rate tomorrow."
>> Of course, they were lying about the issue and weren't interested.
Yup, I've been with techinsurance also since around 2005; you are indeed paying $425 as am I for general liability (and it is the Hartford doing the underwriting). Of course that's baked into the cost of doing business--I was more curious about those who have chosen to (or been asked to) carry the E&O policy, which seems costly and unnecessary.
Most companies don't even ask about the general liability, but it seems probably sensible to have, even when doing business with the small guys (which is usually more rewarding anyway).
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Nayan Hajratwala <na...@chikli.com> wrote: > Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years. They're > super-easy and efficient to work with. I think "The Hartford" is the > underwriter.
> Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. i.e. > Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much of these > days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
> Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being baked into > my rate. Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based" pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to charge you $1000 more."
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Jon Kern <jonker...@gmail.com> wrote: > all good businesses just factor the cost of such requirements (including > taxes) into the contract price.
> govt raises taxes on gas at the pump, gas prices rise by exactly that > amount (shocking, I know).
> if it costs more to be a OBGYN due to having to spend millions on > insurance, guess how much it costs to deliver a baby.
> if they demand you carry $1000 of insurance, guess who gets to pay?
Hmmm... My general liability is also from the Hartford, but through a local insurance agent, and I'm paying a bit more for it ($750 this year). Perhaps we should compare coverage sometime (if I can figure out what coverage I actually have).
> Yup, I've been with techinsurance also since around 2005; you are indeed > paying $425 as am I for general liability (and it is the Hartford doing the > underwriting). Of course that's baked into the cost of doing business--I was > more curious about those who have chosen to (or been asked to) carry the E&O > policy, which seems costly and unnecessary.
> Most companies don't even ask about the general liability, but it seems > probably sensible to have, even when doing business with the small guys > (which > is usually more rewarding anyway).
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Nayan Hajratwala <na...@chikli.com > <mailto:na...@chikli.com>> wrote:
> Jeff, I've used a company called techinsurance for many years. > They're super-easy and efficient to work with. I think "The > Hartford" is the underwriter.
> Mostly, It's been required for when I do work with large clients. > i.e. Ford, Delphi, Blue Cross... Which, by the way, I don't do much > of these days... preferring to help out the little guys :-)
> Right now i'm paying about $425, but it basically ends up being > baked into my rate. Pretty low cost of doing business if you ask me.
> Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based" > pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
> However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer > asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to > charge you $1000 more."
It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms under which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I do so in exchange for other terms that are valuable to me. For example, I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment. I think there are too many possibilities to permit publicly advertising a rate.
I did have one replacement manager insist I interview one of his subpar team
> members, with the intent to determine whether or not the schlub should keep > his job.
That is the easiest "no" in my repertoire. I never give one person an evaluation of another person. Ever.
What I do instead is to offer to coach the person in front of me (the person who asked for the evaluation), to help them manage the way they work with the people who report to them. Very few seem to want that.
Dale
-- Dale Emery Consultant to software teams and leaders Web: http://dhemery.com
2011/6/14 George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com>
> On 6/14/11 12:14 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
>> Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based" >> pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
>> However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer >> asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to >> charge you $1000 more."
> It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms under > which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I do so in > exchange for other terms that are valuable to me. > For example, I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment.
I have the same thing. or for payment within 10 days instead of 30 days
I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when pressed for a daily rate. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Thanks for the recommendations!
> 2011/6/14 George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com>
>> On 6/14/11 12:14 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
>>> Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based" >>> pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
>>> However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer >>> asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to >>> charge you $1000 more."
>> It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms >> under which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I do >> so in exchange for other terms that are valuable to me.
>> For example, I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment.
> I have the same thing. > or for payment within 10 days instead of 30 days
>> I think there are too many possibilities to permit publicly advertising a >> rate.
> I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a > bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when > pressed for a daily rate.
At this moment I prefer to give a range. A pretty large range
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Yves Hanoulle <Mail...@objectsoft.be>wrote:
>> 2011/6/14 George Dinwiddie <li...@idiacomputing.com>
>>> On 6/14/11 12:14 PM, Jeff Langr wrote:
>>>> Which also seems like another good argument for "value-based" >>>> pricing instead of fixed daily/hourly rates.
>>>> However, if you publicize your rates, and then one potential customer >>>> asks, it's kind of hard to turn around and say, "Ok, now I'm going to >>>> charge you $1000 more."
>>> It seems never good to publicize rates without the accompanying terms >>> under which those rates are valid. When I'm asked to modify my rate, I do >>> so in exchange for other terms that are valuable to me.
>>> For example, I'm willing to give a discount for pre-payment.
>> I have the same thing. >> or for payment within 10 days instead of 30 days
>>> I think there are too many possibilities to permit publicly advertising >>> a rate.
>>> - George
>>> -- >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>> ---------- >>> * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com >>> Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com >>> Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>> ----------
> Do you carry because you feel it's needed, or do enough customers insist on it?
Others insist I carry it. I'd drop it otherwise.
I understand and agree with those who don't/won't carry it.
I prefer to choose my battles. If I insist on NOT carrying E&O for whatever reason, and my sponsor can't get it waived, I'm of no use. It may turn out I'm of no use, but we'll have had a go at it.
As someone pointed out, I find it's the larger clients that want this "security blanket". Smaller clients don't bat an eye.
I do carry General (also know as Contractor's) Liability. I've been visiting client sites since 1990, so I'm used to this.
I have dodged the "you MUST have Workmen's Comp" so far.
> I don't "openly" publish my consulting rates (and do try to sell a > bottom-line total when I can)--they're not on my site--but answer when > pressed for a daily rate. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
I do give a daily rate when asked. Later in the discussions I talk about what that daily rate is based on. If they want Net 45, for example, I'll say "Oh, the rate I quoted was for Net 30. Because of the time value of money, I have to ask a higher rate for slower payment."
The best gigs are ones where I quote a flat rate including my expenses. It takes a little research for me to estimate my expenses, and I've never done it for long-term gigs. But when I've done that, it's been much less hassle than having to file expense reports.
