Re: [london-hack-space] Table Saw + dust extraction

[Charles Yarnold]

Hi,

I'm still of the opinion that in untrained hands a tablesaw is more dangerous than a skill saw. If we were to have a table saw we would need to lock it down to people being trained in how to correctly use it.

Dust extraction is already in hand and being installed in the workshops.

Sol

On 14 April 2013 20:00, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

With the new space being so lovely and big, what is the spaces consensus on getting a tablesaw for the dusty woodshop? It's an incredibly useful tool for ripping down large sheet material as well as precision joinery.

I understand that there are some safety concerns, the tool itself is quite dangerous if used incorrectly or without due care or for jobs that its not suitable for, though I don't believe its as dangerous as its been made out to be in previous threads.

The other point was to maybe install a dust extraction/shop vac system in the dusty wood room, this would involve installing a vac in the corner and routing piping around the walls to the workstation with blast doors, this will let MDF be worked safely as well as just make it a nicer place to work.

I'll have a look at some systems and throw out a rough price on what it might cost for the vac+pipes, the tablesaw could cost anywhere from £100-$500 based on what people want/don't want.

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[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Agreed, it would probably need to same RFID-access thing as the 3-in-1.

The big air filters in the wall are good and it will stop outside getting dusty, but it will still be pretty horrible inside if theres a lot of work going on. Wood dust/sawdust is a known carcinogen, any way of reducing this while working would be nice.

[Charles Yarnold]

Just to clarify, a shopvac is being installed with piping to all tools in both the smaller and larger workshops :)

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Ahhh! Nice! Well thats that point finished, now its just about the table saw.

[Alison W]

Whilst someone is raising the idea of new kit, can I make a pitch for a planer/thicknesser in the wood shop. It would especially enable us to use reclaimed wood (recycling!) which may be additional brownie points.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

A jointer would probably be a better piece of kit if you want to use it to reclaim rough cut wood, a planer/thicknesser is still an extremely useful tool though.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I looked into getting some wood thicknessed a while back. The concern
over doing it with reclaimed wood was possible lost-nails damaging blades.
So I'd say yes to a thicknesser, but as long as we have a nice sensitive
metal-detector to go along with it.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

From a quick ebay browse, a good cast iron planer/thicknesser is looking to be around £200-300 + whatever it would cost to get it palet couriered, table saws come in anywhere from £100 for a worktop model to £5-900 for a second hand free standing cast iron one.

[Billy]

If you need access to a table saw, there is one available through
Leaside Wood Recycling Project. http://www.lwrp.org.uk/

It means that you'll need to get the wood through them, but they have
reasonable prices. It also means that you will have to know what you
want to build, before you start cutting, but if you like having
fingers, then you SHOULD be thinking like this if you are going to use
this tool.

Tell them that you have come from London Hackspace, I've been trying
to get a trade account set up, and they are another company that
requires a past history around 3-4 years trading before they will
offer one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have got small circular saws, and we've got the straight edge
guides that Phil made. Clamp the guides in place, and the small saws
will work as a reasonable substitute.

It's not as quick and easy, but it's a lot safer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

+1 on the thicknesser idea.

I thought that we had a powered hand plane, as well as a couple of old-
style ones.

[Dylan Beattie]

+1 on the planer and +1 on a table saw. I've a couple of luthiery projects brewing that would benefit hugely from these - particularly since using reclaimed timber is much more feasible with this sort of tooling available.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Just to be clear, it would need to be a jointer/planer combo machine (very common) as one is useless without the other. (jointer creates the first flat edge.)

[Billy]

Perhaps i wasn't making myself clear.

-1000 on the tablesaw! They are dangerous!

Even with 10-15 years of experience, i know someone who lost the top
joints of three of his fingers due to a moments inattention.

It's not like working in a butcher shop, where it's a clean cut, and
you can glue the joint back on. It will be a ragged cut, and you are
likely to lose a hand!

It's why i recommend using the table saw at LWRP. Go down there and
have a look at it, and look at how they use it.

On 15 Apr, 14:06, Dylan Beattie <dylan.beat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 on the planer and +1 on a table saw. I've a couple of luthiery projects brewing that would benefit hugely from these - particularly since using reclaimed timber is much more feasible with this sort of tooling available.
>

> On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:08, Alison W <alis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Whilst someone is raising the idea of new kit, can I make a pitch for a planer/thicknesser in the wood shop. It would especially enable us to use reclaimed wood (recycling!) which may be additional brownie points.
>

> > On 14 April 2013 22:30, <hfsa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> Ahhh! Nice! Well thats that point finished, now its just about the table saw.
>
> >> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 10:27:18 PM UTC+1, Solexious wrote:
> >>> Just to clarify, a shopvac is being installed with piping to all tools in both the smaller and larger workshops :)
>
> >>> On 14 April 2013 22:20, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Agreed, it would probably need to same RFID-access thing as the 3-in-1.
>
> >>>> The big air filters in the wall are good and it will stop outside getting dusty, but it will still be pretty horrible inside if theres a lot of work going on. Wood dust/sawdust is a known carcinogen, any way of reducing this while working would be nice.
>
> >>>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 10:06:16 PM UTC+1, Solexious wrote:
> >>>>> Hi,
>
> >>>>> I'm still of the opinion that in untrained hands a tablesaw is more dangerous than a skill saw. If we were to have a table saw we would need to lock it down to people being trained in how to correctly use it.
>
> >>>>> Dust extraction is already in hand and being installed in the workshops.
>
> >>>>> Sol
>
> >>>>> On 14 April 2013 20:00, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> With the new space being so lovely and big, what is the spaces consensus on getting a tablesaw for the dusty woodshop? It's an incredibly useful tool for ripping down large sheet material as well as precision joinery.
>
> >>>>>> I understand that there are some safety concerns, the tool itself is quite dangerous if used incorrectly or without due care or for jobs that its not suitable for, though I don't believe its as dangerous as its been made out to be in previous threads.
>
> >>>>>> The other point was to maybe install a dust extraction/shop vac system in the dusty wood room, this would involve installing a vac in the corner and routing piping around the walls to the workstation with blast doors, this will let MDF be worked safely as well as just make it a nicer place to work.
>
> >>>>>> I'll have a look at some systems and throw out a rough price on what it might cost for the vac+pipes, the tablesaw could cost anywhere from £100-$500 based on what people want/don't want.
>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
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[Simon Howes]

I concur
-128 for table saw (I can't go any higher only one signed byte)

The liability and risk is simply too high. This is a really dangerous device and many safer alternatives exist.

[SamLR]

Just out of interest does anyone have any actual data about relative safety of table saws vs e.g. welding, chop saws, compressors, lathes (let alone the stupid stuff people get up to). I've had a quick glance at the HSE statistics[1] but couldn't see anything. 

I ask because whilst I acknowledge tables saws give some people the fear that seems to be the totality of the response[2]. A table saw is a tool, and I'm struggling to see how a table saw is inherently any less safe than a lathe, or the rage saw. All of these tools can maim, amputate and we already have them (in the case of the lathe it has its party trick of flinging chunks of metal across and area with little or no warning). 

There are safety features that they can have (beyond card access) there is proper training that can be given (and government guidelines[3] on how to use the damn thing). If it really gives you the fear to that degree don't use it. 

Ultimately I'm not too bothered whether we get a table saw, it strikes me as a very useful tool given that a lot of the wood we end up with is in not useful bulks that the rage can't cut. 

I can't find any statistics that suggest that table saws are riskier than e.g. lathes or welding and like both of those tools I think we proper care and training we can make it as safe as anything ever is in the space. 

I'll make one final point: whilst the risk of injury on a table saw may be higher than for a lathe, I'm pretty sure the risk of death is much less.

S

[1] http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/

[2] Along with the obligatory "I know someone who cut off a finger" story, yes my granddad did as well, he was a trained carpenter/builder and very good at it, I suspect he also smoked himself to death, damaged a good amount of himself in trips & slips and likely risked death from falls a hell of a lot more than using a saw

[3] http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

[Aaron Sokoloski]

A lot of the problem with a table saw is that you are manipulating the part with your hands, not by turning cranks and levers, and therefore it's very easy for the part to move you, or for you to put your balance the wrong way.  I agree that a lathe is also a dangerous tool, but since it looks complicated and dangerous, people tend to respect it a lot more.

The argument that people who fear the tool most shouldn't use it is not valid.  It's precisely only those who fear and respect it that should be allowed to use it (Charles has already mentioned using ACNode).  The reason I don't want a table saw is not that I think I'll injure myself, it's that I don't want anyone else getting hurt, and knowing the cavalier attitude many members have toward safety, it seems very, very likely.

Rather than argue about the safety of table saws, why don't we put all that energy into tightening up our safety standards, and stopping dangerous practices whenever we see them?  If, in 6 months, we've significantly improved our attitude toward safety, then I think it might make a table saw a more acceptable addition to the workshop for many members.  Ideally, I want to be reasonably sure that if there are two people in the workshop, at least one of them will have the sense and guts to speak up and stop the other doing something dangerous.

How about hand-held circular saws?  Are they any safer than table saws?  I'd want an ACNode on one of those as well, though I don't know how it would work.

[Simon Howes]

What Aaron said basically
Tablesaws are a harking to an earlier less safety-conscious day. There are safer ways to cut wood now. Notice how for example the rage saw requires you to squeeze the safety switch and this keeps your hand locked out of the way. Similar with circular saws. They're still very dangerous if used wrong, but it takes more effort to do so.

Table saws tend to be a sort of Havoc physics simulator of horrible interrelated events that result in an accident. Often its not immediately apparent until the accident hits. its a lot different to hit a nail or a knot in wood you're pushing through on a table saw than say on the rage...

Don't have much in the way of stats other than knowing one person who had a table saw and sliced his fingers.

There's a reason you don't see tablesaws much nowadays
Chopsaws and circular saws have generally replaced them in workshops unless there is a particular need to cut very long pieces of timber.

--

[Nigel Worsley]

> Just out of interest does anyone have any actual data about relative safety of table saws

Yes: http://sawaccidents.com/

Table saws caused 5 times as many injuries as mitre saws like the Rage, despite being
a lot less common.

We definitely shouldn't get one.

I don't think we could justify the large space requirement anyway, to be able to properly
work on full size sheets of wood it would need a clear area of something like 20' x 10'.

A panel saw solves both of these issues, something like this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271187898130

Nigle

[SamLR]

So this is what I think of when I hear table saw

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cts10d-10in-table-saw

it has a blade guard and fences to provide support and control. Any work done on it should use a pusher so fingers are not on the work piece. 

I agree that improving safety is definitely something we should work towards but I've yet to hear a good argument that a table saw is less safe than anything else we have? 

I guess this becomes a question of: would those who don't want a table saw attempt some sort of veto if a pledge was set up for one? 

A hand held circular saw would be useful but I think probably not much safer than a table saw.

Ultimately if we got a table saw I'd want it on ACnode as I agree it is on the higher end of dangerous tools, I just don't see that it's more dangerous than other items that we already have and I'm puzzled by some people's reaction to it (especially Simon and Billy's). Also mildly annoyed because 3 or 4 times now the subject of table saws have come up and instantly become a chorus of "hell no" with often limited arguments as to why. Maybe I am being cavalier about what is apparently the most lethal tool known to man but given the number of places that list the damn things as 'essential in a well equipped workshop'[1] it seems that it's reputation as a destroyer of worlds is perhaps a little inflated.

S

PS if we do get one can it be called dragon destroyer of worlds?

[1] ok it's from the machinemart page and is trying to get you to buy it but it's not the only place I've seen it

[SamLR]

Sorry for the double post but

Nigel: thank you I'd tried searching but couldn't find a damn thing. 

Right I will now shut up about this (although I'm still intrigued as to comparison to welding). 

Also panel saw does look spiffy

also also interesting to see (from Nigel's link) that 50% of those injuries either had no guards or they'd been removed 

S

[Nigel Worsley]

> 50% of those injuries either had no guards or they'd been removed

There are some circumstances where removing the guard is necessary, but I bet
that most of those injuries didn't need it. Sometimes people can't be bothered
to replace it, but usually they remove it 'because it gets in the way'.

Nigle

[Russ Garrett]

On 15 April 2013 16:48, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right I will now shut up about this (although I'm still intrigued as to
> comparison to welding).

IMO hobbyist welding is not a dangerous activity. It's a lot safer
than using the lathe, especially compared to the amount of instruction
required to do it safely. The single safety rule of welding is: wear
the right PPE. (The second rule is: careful you don't burn yourself on
the metal you just welded, but that one's best learned through
experience.) If you work as a welder then there are some more
insidious occupational hazards, but in general they don't affect us at
Hackspace.

I'm happy leaving someone alone with a MIG after 5 minutes of
instruction (compared to at least 45mins on a lathe), although
learning to weld well takes a lot longer.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Steve Kelly]

You mitigate risk with training or design the risk out with jigs which again is training really. As regards statistics for individual machines I doubt you will have much luck as it requires precise reporting by the particular health authority so will probably fall under general machinery mutilations category or something like that if reported at all.  Once you have mitigated the risk then it is down almost entirely to behavior and people fucking about in the workshop.  Boredom does factor into whatever stats there are but is not really applicable to us, If you are on a bandsaw all day every day your attention will wander and the next thing you know you are on incapacity benefit a large proportion of accidents happen this way. Maintenance very important too but more so for different machines. For example the only health and safety sign of any note that I remember from any of the workshops I have worked in is the planer blade stuck in the wall! So in order of danger the planer jointer comes first especially if it has a square block and 12inch knives, Spindle molder second, the cutters are smaller, less mass, less likely to kill you outright just mutilate, the rest are as equally dangerous as each other in the wrong hands.

In order of utility though the most important machine is the planer/thicknesser it is essential for a wokshop and poses no greater risk than any of the other machines so long as the blades don't fly out! Second is the table saw, with the correct jig your hands do not have to go anywhere near the blade.Again with the spindle molder, my own personal nightmare ,you jig the risk out i.e you design something which holds the workpiece for you.

Honestly, none of them are a problem so long as you have workshop discipline.
Recylcled Timber!! No way!entirely out of the question

[Alison W]

I'm really not liking the *sound* of veto here when people suggest the space purchases an entirely standard piece of kit. A rage saw has a limited throw, other non-table saws are more prone to not actually giving a _straight_ edge because you don't have such a long fence. There are many good reasons to have a table saw in the space and, with training and anti-removal screws on the safety features, there is no reason they should be any more dangerous than any other tool can be.

If you are scared of a piece of equipment either learn to use it properly, or just keep clear (and with our much bigger space in 447 that is far easier). Even a pencil can lose you your sight.

--

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Steve Kelly <kelly...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Honestly, none of them are a problem so long as you have workshop discipline.

... and that's entire point of contention.  I don't know you all of you guys personally, and while I'd like to think that you are mostly responsible, I know for sure that not everyone who would try to use a hackspace-owned table saw will be.

I wouldn't try to veto a pledge drive for a table saw, but I would strongly plead that it have mandatory training, very strict access control, and perhaps even some sort of provisional buddy system, where you have to have at least one person near you double-checking that you're using it safely the first few times before you can get your own card added to the ACNode.  I'm sure there are plenty of resources online about the safest ways to use table saws.  Oh, and a poster on a wall nearby with pictures of amputated fingers would be a great reminder (nothing gory, just after they've healed).

And for those emphasising the relative danger of lathes, I'd like quite similar restrictions for ours.  I've used a lathe several times before, but I accept that I haven't proven to you guys that I know how to use one safely, so I fully expect to go through all the training/safety procedures myself before using ours.

[Alison W]

"I don't know you all of you guys personally, and while I'd like to think that you are mostly responsible, I know for sure that not everyone who would try to use a hackspace-owned table saw will be."

I believe the phrase is "I am not my brother's keeper". aka. "If an idiot wants to prove they are an idiot then they will do so no matter how you try to prevent them from doing so"

AMW

--

[Aaron Sokoloski]

For me, it's not about idiots injuring themselves.  There are already plenty of ways to kill/maim yourself in the hackspace.  My problem with a table saw is that it's SO EASY, and you don't even have to be an idiot to do it, just a tiny bit careless.

But again, I'm not totally against the idea.  In fact, I'd prefer to get a table saw if it forces us to make some major improvements to safety in general.  I think the ACNode is a big step in that direction already.

[Alison W]

As I see it, one of the really major improvements due to the move is that we have MOAR SPACE around bits of kit - we aren't falling over the person using something at our elbow. This means there should never be any need for being cramped and cutting corners to reach something or fit it between guides, etc. (This is the reason I haven't bought my own table saw - not enough room to use it)

On 15 April 2013 18:07, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

For me, it's not about idiots injuring themselves.  There are already plenty of ways to kill/maim yourself in the hackspace.  My problem with a table saw is that it's SO EASY, and you don't even have to be an idiot to do it, just a tiny bit careless.

But again, I'm not totally against the idea.  In fact, I'd prefer to get a table saw if it forces us to make some major improvements to safety in general.  I think the ACNode is a big step in that direction already.

--

[Russ Garrett]

On this note, *is* there enough space to effectively use a table saw
in the dirty woodworking room? Because if it has to go outside in the
main workshop area, it defeats the whole point of the separation of
space. I'm not sure if this question has been answered yet.

I'm happy to consider the safety considerations but firstly we have to
consider other practical considerations. Also pertinent is the fact
that we are limited on the size of materials we can get into the
workshop.

Otherwise, you just have to get somewhere else to cut your wood before
it's delivered.

Russ

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Adrian Godwin]

I appreciate your concern, but have you tried crossing Hackney Road to Tesco ? It's just as easy to be dead by being a tiny bit careless.

Fwiw, I don't have a problem with having a table saw for the reasons we've gone over before - you can buy a tiddly one from B&Q. and we haven't got the space for a proper one.

But I wouldn't pledge toward it because I'd have zero confidence that it would be in working, safe condition when I came to use it.

 

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

For me, it's not about idiots injuring themselves.  There are already plenty of ways to kill/maim yourself in the hackspace.  My problem with a table saw is that it's SO EASY, and you don't even have to be an idiot to do it, just a tiny bit careless.

But again, I'm not totally against the idea.  In fact, I'd prefer to get a table saw if it forces us to make some major improvements to safety in general.  I think the ACNode is a big step in that direction already.

--

[Alison W]

Reads "I'd have zero confidence that it would be in working, safe condition when I came to use it."

Cue teh "Is the XXXX working yet?" email flood

[Nigel Worsley]

> On this note, *is* there enough space to effectively use a table saw
> in the dirty woodworking room?

Not if you want to cut up 8x4 sheets.

Nigle

[Billy]

>
> Not if you want to cut up 8x4 sheets.

Hence the suggestion, for using Leaside Wood Recycling Project.

They've got timber, and they'll cut it to size.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

A table saw is not just for ripping stock down to size, it's pretty much THE tool for any kind of joint work.

There should be plenty of space in the dusty room once a few of the work benches are taken out (hand sawing makes little airborne dust).

Ripping large stock could be done outside the dusty shop as long as one of the vacs where plugged into the dust extraction and the fence extraction, this captures about 95% of the dust, though we'd probably need a saw with a reasonably large table to do anything of the size that wouldn't fit in the dusty room.

[Steve Kelly]

Sorry, Nigel but those stats are pretty meaninless they are for DIYers, probably commisioned by Black & Decker as they don't make a circular saw themselves.

'Consumer Product Safety Commission'

'The average age of injured party was 51 years old'

'And the mechanism of injury was generally from the hand contacting the saw blade', Obviously no training whatsoever. What were their hands doing anywhere near the blade in the first place?

If there are any relevant stats they will be with the Milton keynes Stats office(google them ) they are really helpful they will bend over backwards to help but I can tell you now you will be directed to a particual spread sheet and the reporting will be all over the place as there isnt a defined methodology for reporting nationwide from health authority to health authority.

 

I'm not particularly in favour of using it for cutting boards as I don't particularly like working with MDF and if someone will cut it to size and has a horizontal or vertical panel saw then way to go.

It is though priceless for dimensioning large stock real wood. They do not have to take up too much room either if we do not allow 8' *4' sheets to be cut. The important thing is to get a good one with plenty of mass ,an old second hand Wadkin same with the planer thicknesser the point of the mass is to direct as mush as possible of the kinetic energy to the cutting edge , least path of resistance, cleaner cut ,eliminates kickback with sensible feed.

 

I'm quite in favour of this type of machinery as you can still get quite good ones moderately inexpensively and they will hold their value ,spend 2k on a planerthicknesser and you will get 2k back if not more, they will also attract a lot of new members.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Anything on ebay from 1970's onwards is still solid as nails, even having a rusty tabletop doesn't matter as its very easy to fix, the only real requirement is having a flast cast iron table surface, extension tables are nice too.

[Nick Leaton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbndZtkfcqs

Worth a look. 

Quite interesting technology. Table saw and hotdog. 

On 15 April 2013 19:36, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Anything on ebay from 1970's onwards is still solid as nails, even having a rusty tabletop doesn't matter as its very easy to fix, the only real requirement is having a flast cast iron table surface, extension tables are nice too.

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[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Alison W <ali...@gmail.com> wrote:

I believe the phrase is "I am not my brother's keeper". aka. "If an idiot wants to prove they are an idiot then they will do so no matter how you try to prevent them from doing so"

Actually, I'm a bit disturbed by this philosophy.  Everyone has a duh-moment from time to time, and I'd hope that other hackspace members will be looking out for me when I have mine.

The hackspace will never be 100% safe, but I'

[Aaron Sokoloski]

Ugh, sorry about that.  palm of my hand hit the trackpad.

The hackspace will never be 100% safe, but I'm not going to stop trying to get it as close as we reasonably can.

[Alison W]

oh absolutely. Indeed over the past week I've probably been trying to teach too many people to suck eggs (if so, please just tell me to shut up, I'm fairly used to it!) (on the other hand, if you've appreciated it feel even more able to tell me; I like being appreciated ;-P ) Anyway, yes, we're all here to help each other. All I was trying to point out was that we can't *stop* someone being an idiot if we are more than a few metres away.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

I think they might only do their own machines, rather than a kit that can be retrofitted, the machines seem extremely costly for what they offer

I have started up a pledge at http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/Table_Saw

[Oskar Pearson]

Hi Sam

On 15 Apr 2013, at 15:51, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just out of interest does anyone have any actual data about relative safety of table saws vs e.g. welding, chop saws, compressors, lathes (let alone the stupid stuff people get up to). I've had a quick glance at the HSE statistics[1] but couldn't see anything.
>
> I ask because whilst I acknowledge tables saws give some people the fear that seems to be the totality of the response[2]. A table saw is a tool, and I'm struggling to see how a table saw is inherently any less safe than a lathe, or the rage saw. All of these tools can maim, amputate and we already have them (in the case of the lathe it has its party trick of flinging chunks of metal across and area with little or no warning).
>
> There are safety features that they can have (beyond card access) there is proper training that can be given (and government guidelines[3] on how to use the damn thing). If it really gives you the fear to that degree don't use it.
>
> Ultimately I'm not too bothered whether we get a table saw, it strikes me as a very useful tool given that a lot of the wood we end up with is in not useful bulks that the rage can't cut.
>
> I can't find any statistics that suggest that table saws are riskier than e.g. lathes or welding and like both of those tools I think we proper care and training we can make it as safe as anything ever is in the space.
>
> I'll make one final point: whilst the risk of injury on a table saw may be higher than for a lathe, I'm pretty sure the risk of death is much less.

Stats are complicated.

We shouldn't base our table saw purchase decisions on the likelyhood of injury in a very-health-and-safety conscious environment like a factory. It's better to make a decision based on people with experience and clue than incomplete stats that don't mean anything.


You'd need to take the base rate(s) into account when looking at stats. Let's say there are 50,000 compressors in the UK and 5 injuries. There are also 3,000 table saws and 5 injuries. You obviously can't compare "5 vs 5" and say "all is hunky dory".

One also doesn't know about hours of usage of each tool. 30000 hours of table saw use and 5 injuries is very different from 50,000 compressors and 500,000 hours of use and 5 injuries.

I can't think you're going to get any reasonable hours-of-table-saw-usage vs hours-of-compressor-usage stats anywhere - compiling that is a major project.


There's also what you are measuring with your stats. Stats from factories may not have any injuries because they are not complacent and people are paranoid about usage after years of experience and limited usage. So you can't say tool X is relatively more safe than tool Y - perhaps tool X is just relatively more feared in that environment, relatively more respected, and relatively less used (by hours of usage or inexperienced people) and thus relatively more safe.



When you can't get useful stats, one has to rely on common sense and personal experience. The general consensus (from what I know) is "table saws are much more dangerous than you expect - and don't get complacent". My understanding is that there are also few minor injuries with a table saw (think: "ow, that grazed me - I must be more careful with this machine"). So you're either 100% fine or you're missing a finger. There's not linear feedback with your level of idiocy - it's... ahem... digital. (Apologies.)





I don't know anyone that's lost a finger etc to table saws, but this whole debate reminded me on the Adam Savage (from Mythbusters) podcast on shop safety (listen at http://www.tested.com/art/makers/453775-shop-safety-2262012/ ).

He talks (rambles - but it's fun rambles?) quite a lot about table saws and lathes and the like, and says that while using a table saw in his mind he's planning all eventualities. Things like "what if someone walks in with a large crate of marbles, and drops them? Where's my centre of gravity? How would I fall?"

I know it sounds ridiculous, but in the Hackspace that sort of event is perhaps more probable than one would otherwise expect. In my opinion the following is much more likely at hackspace than in a factory:
* Usage by people without years of experience, or with very limited training.
* Usage by overtired people.
* Usage by people that stopped at the pub earlier and "feel fine".
* Solo usage without people around to help in an emergency.
* Usage without trained emergency staff nearby to staunch blood flow.
* Usage of slightly blunt blades and wonky tools (removed guards) due to hackage - something Adam talks about.
* Usage when someone walks in with a crate full of marbles or fireworks.

Overall I think you'd have to estimate the chance of damage at the very high end of the stats.

If you can source stats of relative safety of tools based on hours-of-use by an inexperienced overtired slightly tipsy person with not much training and a predilection for marbles and fireworks in a solo environment with blunt tools, sure, lets decide based on stats. :) Until then I suggest we use the wisdom of those with many years of experience - and friends with missing fingers. :)

Oskar

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

^^ I love this post unironically ^^

I have watched that before and it raises some extremely valid points along with your post, anyone who does any of the things bullet pointed should really not be using any bench tool let alone a table saw.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Oskar Pearson <os...@deckle.co.uk> wrote:

I know it sounds ridiculous, but in the Hackspace that sort of event is perhaps more probable than one would otherwise expect. In my opinion the following is much more likely at hackspace than in a factory:
* Usage by people without years of experience, or with very limited training.
* Usage by overtired people.
* Usage by people that stopped at the pub earlier and "feel fine".
* Solo usage without people around to help in an emergency.
* Usage without trained emergency staff nearby to staunch blood flow.
* Usage of slightly blunt blades and wonky tools (removed guards) due to hackage - something Adam talks about.
* Usage when someone walks in with a crate full of marbles or fireworks.

Oskar, thanks.  You've perfectly articulated my objections.

Link to the relevant portion of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_8DZ-9yQiGw#t=10m41s

[Dylan Beattie]

On 15 April 2013 21:12, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Oskar Pearson <os...@deckle.co.uk> wrote:

I know it sounds ridiculous, but in the Hackspace that sort of event is perhaps more probable than one would otherwise expect. In my opinion the following is much more likely at hackspace than in a factory:
* Usage by people without years of experience, or with very limited training.
* Usage by overtired people.
* Usage by people that stopped at the pub earlier and "feel fine".
* Solo usage without people around to help in an emergency.
* Usage without trained emergency staff nearby to staunch blood flow.
* Usage of slightly blunt blades and wonky tools (removed guards) due to hackage - something Adam talks about.
* Usage when someone walks in with a crate full of marbles or fireworks.

You know, that's actually changed my mind. Very succinctly put.

-1 on the table saw. +2 on the planer/thicknesser. :)

-D-

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

> And for those emphasising the relative danger of lathes, I'd like quite
> similar restrictions for ours. I've used a lathe several times before,
> but I accept that I haven't proven to you guys that I know how to use
> one safely, so I fully expect to go through all the training/safety
> procedures myself before using ours.

I think a factor in this that's not been expressed is the apparent
utility of the tool.
The lathe, mill or welder may be just as dangerous as a bench-saw, but
the former all have very specific fields of use. You don't look at the
lathe and think you could put a screwdriver bit in the chuck to do up
some fixings. However, particularly because we already have the
multi-material Rage saw, I suspect a bench-saw will be seen as an
equally multi-purpose general cutting tool and misused in all the same
ways as the wrong saws, blades, chisels and so forth currently are.

I actually own a 3HP table-saw and the thing quite rightfully terrifies
me every time I need to plug it in. The family story of a great-uncle
who had all the muscles, tendons & bones for his thumb torn out of his
arm after getting snagged by one and who had to spend months with his
arm sewn to his belly to fill the void in his digit with fat.. all rings
loudly in my mind.
It's a tool I only use when it's the only and the right tool for the
job, and even then it's rare I'll use it without knowing someone is
nearby to pull the plug for me if need-be.

In short I would be concerned that a tablesaw would not be treated with
the respect it deserves and instead would eventually be reduced to
producing impromptu episodes of "Will It Blend?" on toasters and tape-decks.
That said it can be safer to use the right tool for the right job than
try and make-do with the wrong tool because the right one wasn't around.

If we get one, needs to be ACnode'd and marked WOOD ONLY, with
push-sticks provided (we need some of those for the router table as it
is). There's some argument for being able to remove safety guards for
certain special jobs, but I think it should only be done by those who
maintain the machine to ensure it's always returned to safe operating
conditions and to ensure the reason for removing them temporarily is
justified.

Perhaps we could start with Andy's safety-awareness idea of running a
leg of pork pumped full of blood through a chop-saw in the car-park.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On the pledge page, I've extended the section about safety concerns with a list of suggested ways to mitigate the danger that I've read here and on IRC (plus a few of my own).  We've already basically agreed on lots of them, and I don't think any are unreasonable.  Please add anything else you can think of or that I've missed out.

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/Table_Saw

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

I agree with everything there except the buddy system, you should be watched for your first few goes to make sure you're safe with the machine and compitent in its use, but having someone stand over you every time you use it is a bit much.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:32 AM, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I agree with everything there except the buddy system, you should be watched for your first few goes to make sure you're safe with the machine and compitent in its use, but having someone stand over you every time you use it is a bit much.

That would be fine with me.  And of course, anytime you're cutting something big, you should have someone supporting the other end.

[Alison W]

a table saw is definitely one of the pieces of equipment which should have its own big red and yellow <emergency off> button nearby.

--

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Rigging up a foot stop would be paramount, something you can just step on to stop the blade.

[Alison W]

or (better imho) step off. 'Dead Man's Handle' and all that

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Alison W <ali...@gmail.com> wrote:

or (better imho) step off. 'Dead Man's Handle' and all that

Not necessarily.  Using a table saw may involve stepping to different positions to keep your body in good balance, and having to keep one foot on a step may cause more problems than it solves.  As for a foot stop, I suspect that by the point you realize there is a problem and decide to step on it, the damage has already been done.

[Nigel Worsley]

> Quite interesting technology. Table saw and hotdog.

Those things are prone to nuisance tripping with things like unseasoned
or damp timber, and also some plastics. And every time it trips, you have
to replace the blade and the cartridge containing the stopping mechanism,
which apparently works out at $120 a time.

Nigle

[Kimball Johnson]

So about £100, which is equivalent to about 8 hours running cost of the hackspace[1].

I'm not sure it's a cost worth quibbling over unless it proves to have a significant number of false positives.

Kimball

[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/london-hack-space/New$20Space$20Update/london-hack-space/LgX8CILjqsE/ans0CG-t4s0J

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

http://www.tru.ca/hsafety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html

a good read on basic safety rules.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Those things are prone to nuisance tripping with things like unseasoned
or damp timber, and also some plastics. And every time it trips, you have
to replace the blade and the cartridge containing the stopping mechanism,
which apparently works out at $120 a time.

As I understand it, we're only getting this to cut wood, not plastic anyway.  And how often do we cut damp/unseasoned wood?  Personally, if getting one of those prevents even just one injury in all the time we have it, it would be worth it to me.

[Alison W]

The very fact that we now have separate "Wood" and "Metal" rooms in this respect should assist in keeping each out of the other.

--

[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 10:08 AM, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

http://www.tru.ca/hsafety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html

Actually, those safety rules explicity say to only cut dry, seasoned wood on any table saw.

[Tom Sands]

Further reading actually shows that this device is only on Sawstop brand tablesaws which start at $1500 for the smallest and are only distributed in the US.

Great idea though.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

Great idea, Steve.  I hadn't heard of the plunge saw before, but it looks like it's an order of magnitude safer than a table saw for the infrequent user.  I would have absolutely no reservations about having one of those in the space.

[Alison W]

I've looked at guided plunge saws in the past but the issue I had (not from experience, just from looking) was how to keep the workpiece stable and flat if it is large.

On 16 April 2013 21:49, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great idea, Steve.  I hadn't heard of the plunge saw before, but it looks like it's an order of magnitude safer than a table saw for the infrequent user.  I would have absolutely no reservations about having one of those in the space.

--

[Adrian Godwin]

Anybody know how well these work ?

http://www.ppauctions.com/lot.php?l_id=28788&id=85&search=&cat=all&perPage=20&sort=2&thisPage=18

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Aaron Sokoloski <asoko...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great idea, Steve.  I hadn't heard of the plunge saw before, but it looks like it's an order of magnitude safer than a table saw for the infrequent user.  I would have absolutely no reservations about having one of those in the space.

--

[Adrian Godwin]

I like that.

Large sheets are actually very hard on a table saw as unless it's huge they are difficult to line up for entry and even more difficult to control as they fall into two. My saw suffers from exactly that problem.

That machine appears to allow you to clamp the sheet down rather than have to manipulate it above a table.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Steve Ganly <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've owned and used a table saw for over ten years - they can be used safely but there's a long learning curve to get to that point. Having a sliding table saw sled helps a lot. Mathias Wandel of http://woodgears.ca/ has good videos:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdIQY_7T26k (push sticks)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ImoPkHaMc (table saw sled)

However, the table saw creates huge amounts of airborne dust (even with dust extraction) so I've now started using a Festool plunge cut saw, guide rail and an Multifunction Table (MFT). 

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm1Tc49QMNY (long ad)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q1f_lADLEg (table demo which also shows the saw usage)

It's an amazing set up. Far safer, cleaner and I think more capable too - it can do the work of a panel saw so that wouldn't be needed and can be carried to the yard outside to cut up large sheets. The cut quality is also far better than the table saw - no tear out.

I read a comment that the European trend is for plunge saws and guides while the American trend is for table saws; I think the desire for a table saw comes from them being featured in so many 'how to' videos - it takes a little more thought to convert the build process to a plunge saw system. But the biggest win for a variable ability user base is that it's far, far safer.

They are expensive tools, but should come in around the same price as is being considered for a cast iron table saw:

  TS55 saw - £332 - http://toolfest.co.uk/festool-portable-circular-saws

  MFT3 table - £450 - http://toolfest.co.uk/festool-multi-function-table-mft

  2400mm guide rail - £146 - http://toolfest.co.uk/festool-guide-systems

Adds up to about £920 (ex vat)

I can bring my gear in for a demo if that would help.

We can also buy blades for cutting plastic and aluminium so it's not limited to wood and can cut up large sheets of acrylic to fit in the laser cutter.

The the largest blade in my table saw I can cut a height of 70mm. With the plunge saw, the max depth is 55mm, but that's not been a problem for me.

Someone mentioned re-sawing wood on a table saw, but that is much better done on a bandsaw anyhow.

I'd pledge funds to get a plunge saw and table, but not for a table saw...

[Tom Sands]

This is just as good if it has it's own dedicated area and/or table.

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[Tim Storey]

I have owned table saws, still own table saws and Festool plunge saws and other Festool kit.

Festool's are accurate and good and arguably safer than table saws.
They are not a replacement for table saws, they are useful for sheet material and nothing else.

I personally do not think that table saws are too dangerous but there you go I have used them for 20 years.

The problem with Festool's is that people can and will fuck up the guide rail and thus make the accuracy useless, also they can and will start the cut at the wrong speed and wrong time causing the saw to jump out of the cut and off the rail.

This could cause serious finger removal although the electronic brake is good on them, tbh I am more worried about tool damage, they are accurate and expensive because they are accurate so they don't take kindly to abuse.

If the space would like to have the ability to do some good quality wood working a table saw and thicknesser/planer is essential for decent quality, easy and accurate work.

I do not think they are too dangerous but they do need training to operate as do all our good tools.

Lock it and never let untrained or obviously irresponsible folk use it. Keep the blades in locked cupboard and only let trained folk have access.

The decision should be on whether we wish to expand our making capabilities NOT on whether the tool is safe.

I have seen 5 accidents with circular saws. I have never seen one with a table saw.

Spindle moulders are the MOST frightening, I would be worried letting members loose on one of those, table saw, no.

A decent second hand sliding table saw is designed for sheet material and solid wood, it would expand our capabilities most magnificently.


\t
-

[Toby Catlin]

> Spindle moulders are the MOST frightening, I would be worried letting members loose on one of those, table saw, no

I have seen a spindle moulder throw its blades because it wasn't done up tight enough and it was terrifying. While we were digging the parts of very sharp steel out of the work bench on the other side of the workshop I couldn't help but think how lucky we were, especially as most were at groin height.

[Alison W]

[frivolous suggestion - mostly]

should we go into the kevlar workshop armour - manufacturing business?

(actually, can one but something suitable, like you can for chain saws?)

[Steve Ganly]

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 10:05:25 PM UTC+1, AlisonW wrote:

I've looked at guided plunge saws in the past but the issue I had (not from experience, just from looking) was how to keep the workpiece stable and flat if it is large.

The table is quite a key part to the whole set up - for anything roughly up to the table size (1157 x 773 mm) gets clamped to the table. Either via all those holes in the table top or via a moulding around the edge of the table (kind of like makerslide but much more chunky). The video links I posted show lots of examples of clamping.

Then the great thing is that the guide rails acts as one big clamp too. It's aluminium but on one side is a soft rubber and the other side is a kind of soft nylon. Both of these are fairly high friction so help hold the workpiece. The angle of the saw handle is about 45 degrees so as you push the saw along you also apply some downward pressure.  The guide is mounted on a hing at the rear which adjusts in height to suit the thickness of whatever you're cutting.

For pieces larger than the table you can either do what Festool recommends (buy more tables since they link together) but I'd recommend knocking up another table or two of the same height - then you just clamp the guide and workpiece to the table. Given how easy it won't be to take full size sheets down to the dusty room, I'd suggest a set up for large panels out in the yard - weld a bunch of steel frame from the supplier down the road together and leave it in the yard. When it needs to be used four or five shelf sized pieces of MDF can be taken from inside and laid into the frame. It'd also double as a handy table for BBQ's...

This guy has about 35 mins of footage of how to hold/set up work on the tables:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXCatsDERM0&playnext=1&list=PLF0DC77CBD2AA38A9

The stuff about setting up common angles is really good.

This guy has a home built torsion box table that he's using a 2400mm guide on

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqA9edtoSCs

which is a good demo, but I don't think we'd have room inside the space for this and a wooden one wouldn't last long with our weather.

[Nigel Worsley]

> Anybody know how well these work ?
> http://www.ppauctions.com/lot.php?l_id=28788&id=85&search=&cat=all&perPage=20&sort=2&thisPage=18

Very well indeed, but they don't do the same job as a table saw.
Basically they are a Rage saw on steroids, they can handle much bigger
work pieces and can do cool stuff by tilting the blade. The blade can
also be rotated through 90 degrees so that timber can be fed through
from the side for ripping down, but as with a table saw this requires
a free area somewhat longer than the timber on both sides of the
blade.

They have a tendency to go out of alignment quite quickly when in the
hands of unskilled users, requiring it to be re-aligned before trying
to do anything vaguely accurate.

That looks very similar to the one that I have access to, possibly
even the same model. It has survived a good few years of hackspace
style abuse without breaking, and as far as I am aware has yet to send
anyone to hospital. Unlike the table saw in the same workshop, which
does so roughly every 5 years but they have all come back with
everything still attached so far.

Nigle

[Tim Storey]

In terms of keeping the work piece stable and flat the easiest thing to do is keep a set of wooden bearers that are all of a common dimensions and put then on the floor and then put the sheet on the bearers, you really don't need a table. You do need a level floor though.

If you have 4 bearers you can cut any dimensions you want.

If you want to cut thin materials then keep a sheet of 18mm as a table, support that on bearers, put then thin sheet on the 18mm and cut

Or make up a set of saw stools and put a sheet of ply over them.

The guides are okay but they do slip when the material is dusty which it gets rapidly.

The festool itself also produces a lot of dust unless its plugged in a vacuum system such as festool sell.

The accuracy of the cut is determined by a strip of neoprene that the saw cuts through on its first pass and thus gives the position on the kerf.
If you fuck this up then then you need to do a bit of guesswork as to where the kerf will be.

Also if you cut at angles then the kerf position has to be 'eyed' in. Not a problem with experience but each rail gets tuned to the tools that use it if you will.

ERGO accuracy of cut is a matter of experience not necessarily the tool itself.

Don't expect miracles, also as I have mentioned they are delicate and I have doubts for its durability in a Hackspace type usage.

They are great tools but they aren't table saw replacements...

\t

[SamLR]

On 17 April 2013 04:26, Steve Ganly <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've owned and used a table saw for over ten years - they can be used safely but there's a long learning curve to get to that point. Having a sliding table saw sled helps a lot. Mathias Wandel of http://woodgears.ca/ has good videos:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdIQY_7T26k (push sticks)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ImoPkHaMc (table saw sled)

He obviously has a lot of skill and confidence with a table saw and the sleds and push sticks are things we'd have to have if we got one but.... am I alone in thinking that if I saw someone using a table saw like that in the space I'd ask them to stop, using it to cut a grove, really? we have routers for that sort of job. Using it to trim and make very small cuts: definitely jobs for a plane and the rage saw.....

Either way interesting video even if I think some poor demonstrations of table saw use cases.

S

[Charles]

The skill saw is good for rough jobs but if we want to produce some quality work we need the table saw. 
Its a workshop. Every tool is dangerous in the wrong hands, and while the table saw would be the most dangerous tool it would need stringent safety measures.
First step would be to hook up the AC node so that no idiots try to slice a toaster in half. 

+1000 on the table saw. 

+500 on the thicknesser. 

[Steve Kelly]

Tims, I was hoping you would nod in on this one. Tim and i probably have about 40 years of practical shop and site work between us. I nor tim have ever had an accident with a table saw.
In one particular period i used a table saw and planer/thicknesser on a daily basis for 8 years without one single problem.Cutting everything between 4inch thick rough sawn sycamore plank to 8*4 sheets of mdf. It would have been detrimental to have used a circular saw on any of the work I produced and significantly more dangerous.

As Tim says,
'If the space would like to have the ability to do some good quality wood working a table saw and thicknesser/planer is essential for decent quality, easy and accurate work.

 
I do not think they are too dangerous but they do need training to operate as do all our good tools.
 
Lock it and never let untrained or obviously irresponsible folk use it. Keep the blades in locked cupboard and only let trained folk have access.
 
The decision should be on whether we wish to expand our making capabilities NOT on whether the tool is safe.
 
I have seen 5 accidents with circular saws. I have never seen one with a table saw.
 
Spindle moulders are the MOST frightening, I would be worried letting members loose on one of those, table saw, no.
 

A decent second hand sliding table saw is designed for sheet material and solid wood, it would expand our capabilities most magnificently.'

Billy's suggestion of using an offsite saw for large boards is the way to go but for precision joinery with real wood a table saw and planer is essential, a workshop is bare without them. Also there are some incredible Wadkins going for a song on ebay so the capital outlay for incredibly significant utility is negligible.

On Wednesday, 17 April 2013 12:49:54 UTC+1, Ndlovu wrote:

Whilst debate is good, how many people commenting here have worked in an industrial or for that matter commercial workshop, whilst this is primarialy a hobist enviroment when working with "Heavy or high speed tools a diffrent mindset is required" I spent about 15 years in a role as operator or manager in workshops or work areas where heavy industrial machine  equpimnet was used where they were not health and saftey obsesed and very little chance of compnesation but people took personal responsibility for there actions, I was only ever aware of one minor acident on a remote site. 

All tools are dangerous and in my mantra of personal responsibility if you dont know how or are not compentent dont use it, or seek advice, how do you acess compentent ??? when there arent many people capable of it what do you do (some of the so called experts I would not let near a wheel barrow never mind a machine tool) and how do you control it ?

I feel that the best that we can do is a very strong at your "own risk" and require a signed disclaimer stating they have the skills  (even if it has limited legal impact it send a very strong psycological message)  and control acesses which I believe is in hand and a good start to stop abuse and encorage good practice 

There you have my 5 cents or pennys

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Yes, there are some incredible deals constantly going up on ebay.

Just to remind people that the pledge site is up http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/Table_Saw

The prices quoted are a massive guestimate based on what would be available at the time, buying first-hand is nice because you get warranty with the machine but you get a lot more for your money if you buy second-hand.

[Tim Storey]

>. Also there are some incredible Wadkins going for a song on ebay so the capital outlay for incredibly significant utility is negligible.

 

I meant to add the above but figured it was getting a bit too tl;dr

--

[Tom Sands]

Pledged £50

On Sunday, 14 April 2013 20:00:41 UTC+1, hfs...@googlemail.com wrote:

With the new space being so lovely and big, what is the spaces consensus on getting a tablesaw for the dusty woodshop? It's an incredibly useful tool for ripping down large sheet material as well as precision joinery.

I understand that there are some safety concerns, the tool itself is quite dangerous if used incorrectly or without due care or for jobs that its not suitable for, though I don't believe its as dangerous as its been made out to be in previous threads.

The other point was to maybe install a dust extraction/shop vac system in the dusty wood room, this would involve installing a vac in the corner and routing piping around the walls to the workstation with blast doors, this will let MDF be worked safely as well as just make it a nicer place to work.

I'll have a look at some systems and throw out a rough price on what it might cost for the vac+pipes, the tablesaw could cost anywhere from £100-$500 based on what people want/don't want.

[Adrian Godwin]

And bear in mind that although secondhand often requires knowledgable people to repair (look at how much effort Nottinghack put into their Bridgeport), consumer-quality machinery can take a fair bit of effort even when new - the 3in1 is a good example.

[Tim Storey]

there is little point buying consumer grade equipment in my experience. I feel we have a reached a size and maturity as a group to justify purchasing high grade solid equipment, we have the experience amongst members to know what is actually worth purchasing etc. and seconf hand industrial machinery is not expensive compared to the use we will get from it, it is also often of better quality than the newer machines certainly in terms of wood working machinery. 

\t

[Steve Kelly]

That is why I reccommend the 'Wadkin' as I have done a lot of the 3in 1 repairs! Wadkin is almost a warranty in itself.There is no comparable modern equivalent they all lack basic substance and 'mass' is essential.
lathes are more of a problem as they are quite complicated machines, the  table saw and planer are at the other extreme they are essentially a motor and a drive belt. If the motor goes it will probably be the bushes when the belt goes you replace the belt.

[Steve Ganly]

On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 2:21:14 PM UTC+1, Tom Sands wrote:

Pledged £50

I also just pledged £50; my previous reservations were due to concerns of inexperienced people walking up and damaging themselves and the machine. Given that I've only just joined the space I realise that I don't have a view of experience levels of hackspace members so those thoughts are just noise.

I agree that having high capability tools in the space is a good goal and trust in the existing mechanisms for access control and offering training for those that need it. I also volunteered as a maintainer and trainer, as needed.

I'd recommend new users start off with a sliding cross cut sled since this helps with accuracy and safety - the workpiece is usually clamped down and both hands are on a frame well away from the blade. I also volunteer to build the slide over the summer and suggest the pledge budget also covers a bunch of toggle clamps (about £50 max will do).

+1 on getting second hand industrial equipment; avoid anything with a consumer grade aluminium surface.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

is having a sliding table really necessary for the type of small work it will be seeing? Are there any advantages/disadvantages over having a sliding table to non-sliding? Bearing in mind the space constraings in the new dusty woodshop.

[Steve Kelly]

Hfs,We can remove the sliding table, effectively halving the footprint. Some will invariably come with a sliding table and other accessories. Its main use is large boards which we should avoid other than that there are no other advantages. BTW one of the Wadkin on Ebay I posted is ex Guildhall University indicating low hours and light usage. Ends in 2 days though and ex education machinery is becoming increasing rare!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WADKIN-Panel-Dimension-Saw-/171023945781?pt=UK_BOI_Building_Materials_Supplies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item27d1d25035

On Thursday, 18 April 2013 14:07:52 UTC+1, hfs...@googlemail.com wrote:

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

I don't think we're going to get enough capital in 2 days for that unfortunatly

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Axminster-table-saw-/390581679601?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5af07b75f1

this looks reasonable, its a smaller hubrid saw, but it has a cast iron top and a sliding table.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Startrite-cicrular-table-saw-240v-single-phase-1-5Kw-/321108120336?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item4ac3891310

this looks better, if it goes for under £400

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

I am willing to foot the bill for hiring a van for the day to go collect something, but it cant be more than 2 hours out of london.

If we can raise another £100 in a day, I think theres a good chance we can get that startrite saw

On Saturday, April 20, 2013 3:08:35 PM UTC+1, Ndlovu wrote:

Pledged 50 quid for the table saw ..... a lot of chatter here how about some more pledgers 

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/Table_Saw

Hope after the table saw we can get some suopport for a propper metal saw i.e donkey/power hacksaw etc  :-) which is what I really would like  

[Steve Kelly]

hfs.. Yes the Startrite is a very good machine too I cannot access the pledge page so put me down for £50 its at £304 now with 7 hrs to go with 6 bidders . My £50 gives us £320 total, at least we can bid now but 1 more pledge will give us half a chance.

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

as I dont think we can get all the money to russ in 7 hours, I'm willing to bid and pay for it if everyone whos pledged and the trustees are ok with that

[AlisonW]

Total now pledged: £350

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad. Yes, really!

---

[Steve Kelly]

'as I dont think we can get all the money to russ in 7 hours, I'm willing to bid and pay for it if everyone whos pledged and the trustees are ok with that'

hfs I am totaly fine with this.

[Martin Dittus]

Hold the horses.

Before a particularly keen group establishes fact, can someone summarise what the plan is?

It seems atm we don't actually have the safety measures in place. I'm not OK with ordering a tablesaw before that changes. The risk is too big that it turns from "lets get this cheap offer" to "hey it's here let's use it"; particularly if people pledged for it. And as far as I can tell we're not set up to prevent people from using it atm.

If I understand the situation correctly I would *strongly* advise that we don't start bidding/collecting one until that's in place.

m.


On 21 Apr 2013, at 16:45, Steve Kelly <kelly...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> 'as I dont think we can get all the money to russ in 7 hours, I'm willing to bid and pay for it if everyone whos pledged and the trustees are ok with that'

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

On a point that was just raised in IRC, IF we win this, the table saw will be here before we have the infrastructure to impliment safety features. Is everyone ok with NOT (IE. detatching the drive belt/unwiring the socket) using it until such features can be implimented? This may be some time.

[Martin Dittus]

To clarify my request -- could you please document the plan here:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledges/Table_Saw

I want to make sure it's very clear among all that we will _not_ use it until safety and training measures are in place.

This entails:

Now:
- clear documentation of this intention
- an identifiable group of responsible parties who will execute the plan

In the near future:
- a clearly documented plan for safety and training measures (vetted by the community, and signed off by the trustees)
- a group of responsible and experienced people to carry this out

Maybe I'm over-cautious, and I'm not the best person to assess machine safety, so these are just my personal recommendations; but I would like to make sure that we treat this with the caution and preparedness it deserves. We cannot fuck this up.

m.

[Adrian Godwin]

Fwiw, the Rage saw was going to have keyswitch pending the arrival of ACNode.

A year later when it wore out (perhaps partly because of abuse) it still didn't have one.

It looks like some spares may be needed for the saw (apart from the suggestion of blades, it might also be missing the top guard) - Startrite are probably good for that but a little bit of budget to get it in top order may be needed.,

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

I asked and it is missing the top guard, I was pointed to a couple of places online by a forum that fix and maintain startrite machines and they have replacement guards for not that much, as they're considered a consumeable and likely to get trashed.

[Dean Forbes (PERS)]

i would be more than happy to disconect it electrically  and mechanically (perhaps remove blade) to ensure that it is disabled untill all the ducks are in a row  as per martins requeast

On 21 April 2013 17:44, <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I asked and it is missing the top guard, I was pointed to a couple of places online by a forum that fix and maintain startrite machines and they have replacement guards for not that much, as they're considered a consumeable and likely to get trashed.

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[Martin Dittus]

There's also a discussion happening on IRC atm, let me summarise my latest comments.

My main concern: we're still inexperienced at instituting new social habits; and access control is largely untested territory for us. So there's lots to experiment with, need lots of time to make mistakes, and need patience & persistence to see it through.

That won't work if it's just a group of keen individuals who don't work together. With less risky things I'd be happy to find these things out as we go; but not with this. I want to see a group of experienced and responsible parties to take charge here and propose a proper pla; atm we don't have that. All I see is a small group of particularly keen individuals.

I think it'd be great to use this as motivation to make access control work in the first place. And only _then_ to use well-tested tech on more risky equipment.

m.

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[hfs...@googlemail.com]

As our pledge seems to have stalled out a fair way short of the necessary funds to purchase a large industrial saw, would pledgers consider to switching to a quality bench/stand mounted consumer model thats more in our price range?

[AlisonW]

Thing is, as individuals we are consumers, but as a group we are light industrial. Given the treatment kit seems to receive in our workshops ('rage',etc) I'm not sure there would be any point in getting a lesser model.

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad. Yes, really!

On 30 Apr 2013 10:45, hfs...@googlemail.com <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:

As our pledge seems to have stalled out a fair way short of the necessary funds to purchase a large industrial saw, would pledgers consider to switching to a quality bench/stand mounted consumer model thats more in our price range?

[Steve Kelly]

I personally would not pledge for consumer gear, besides ,still bargains to be had like this one ...http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-Saw-Bench-/130896119142?pt=UK_BOI_Building_Materials_Supplies_Carpentry_Woodwork_ET&hash=item1e7a044566..... may just fall within our budget and it is in Barking.