Python Beginners Course Re-Run

[Benjamin Blundell]

How many people would be interested in this at all? It was fairly popular last time. Tempted to open it up to a wider community and get more non-members into the space. Thoughts?

[Tom Sands]

OH god me, I neeeeeeeeeeeeeeed this!

[Benjamin Blundell]

Rather tempted to create something along the lines of HackspaceEd but thats another topic :P

Seriously though, it was a big hit last time and I'd like to offer it not just to members but people outside the space as it went really well last time. It didnt bring in loads of money but it was well received and may have brought a member in or two. Plus its good fun!

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[Charles Yarnold]

+1

On 22 May 2013 13:11, "Benjamin Blundell" <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:

How many people would be interested in this at all? It was fairly popular last time. Tempted to open it up to a wider community and get more non-members into the space. Thoughts?

[tgreer]

MEEEEEEEEE

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 13:11:34 UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[chrisbob12]

I'm interested, though mostly dependant on when it runs. Any details on content and what level it's aimed at?

[Matt Peperell]

I'll willing to be a helper-assistant type, if that ends up being necessary.

On 22 May 2013 13:11, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:

How many people would be interested in this at all? It was fairly popular last time. Tempted to open it up to a wider community and get more non-members into the space. Thoughts?

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Regards,

Matt Peperell
Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890
Skype: mattpep

[Henry Sands]

Will this be noob friendly? IE for people with little/no coding experience?

[Liam Proven]

On 22 May 2013 13:11, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, yes, I would.

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[Mark Steward]

Ditto, happy to share the kool-aid.

[Benjamin Blundell]

Matt, Mark, yes, always need helpers :)

I'll setup another date thingy later on. Any ideas on where to post this when we get a date set?

B

[Jonty Wareing]

Shove me on the helper list too.

--jonty

[Benjamin Blundell]

Thanks! Helpers are always needed and Mark/Matt did a great job last time. Its been a while since I've run this and things have changed on the scene I imagine but I'll likely as not, redo the standing Python course still online.

We accepted donations last time. I propose it be free for members but non members should either pay a small fee or join. Last time, we couldnt charge because of laws/rules but has that changed since?

[Nigel Worsley]

Definitely interested, as long as it is a weekend.

Nigle

[Vic Casambros (M6BOK)]

I'd be interested in attending this as n00b too, as long as it's when I'm free :)

[Naomi Colvin]

Yes, same here!

[Tim Reynolds]

I'd be interested. 

[Simon]

Yes, I'd be interested for me and if possible for my 14year old son

when?


I also like the idea of having this open to non-members as a recruitment drive

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 13:11:34 UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

count me in depending on timing

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:11:34 PM UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[Benjamin Blundell]

Here are some dates! If people can vote, I'll get cracking on the updates

http://www.doodle.com/h67aqa4usbzg2pm9

[Luke T]

You can most certainly count me in :D

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:11:34 PM UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[SamLR]

Happy to help out if needed (date/stress/PhD dependant).

S

[Steve Jelly]

I'm mustardly keen

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 13:11:34 UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[Penguin]

Signed up on doodle. I love snakes!

[Metz]

Sign me up as another potential helper....and I recon HackspaceEd is a brilliant idea.

On Wednesday, 22 May 2013 13:11:34 UTC+1, Oni wrote:

[Anish Mohammed]

+1 :)

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:

How many people would be interested in this at all? It was fairly popular last time. Tempted to open it up to a wider community and get more non-members into the space. Thoughts?

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[Piers]

I'm very keen, too. What development platform what be used?

Piers.

[Jo]

I'd be interested, depending on the level it's aimed at (I'm a complete beginner :P)

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 13:49, Jo <xjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd be interested, depending on the level it's aimed at (I'm a complete
> beginner :P)

You're not alone.

Currently reading the O'Reilly book by Mark Lutz & trying to work
through /Python the Hard Way./ Both are doing my head in and make me
long for BASIC with intense nostalgia.

Within about 4 very simple exercises on PTHW, it is already apparent
that the % character has two /entirely separate/ and different
syntactical meanings. WTF? *Why*, FFS?

[SamLR]

Oni's teaching so I can't really comment on the level but I suspect it will be beginner friendly. 

Liam the % has two uses (that I can think of): string formatting (based on C's printf[1]) and modulo division (again, from C)

A lot of python is based on C so thats where a good number of its quirks come from. 

In the case of formatting I'd recommend looking up the "".format() style as for longer strings it can be a lot clearer. As for modulo division it's useful to know about but not used a lot (useful to know about though).

S 

[1] www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/cstdio/printf/

[Mark Steward]

Operator overloading is pretty common. You'll note that a large number of languages, BASIC included, have + to signify arithmetic addition as well as string concatenation, and VB reuses & for string concatenation (very different from the bitwise 1 & 2).

It's not as common to roll your own in Python as it was in C++, but it makes certain things like sets more readable:

  http://docs.python.org/2/library/sets.html#example

Mark

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 14:40, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do people top-quote on this list? It makes it so very much harder
to have an actual discussion. :¬(

> Oni's teaching so I can't really comment on the level but I suspect it will
> be beginner friendly.

I am sure, but there are beginners and beginners. Stuff that makes
sense to one person often doesn't to another.

> Liam the % has two uses (that I can think of): string formatting (based on
> C's printf[1]) and modulo division (again, from C)

Yes, I've gathered that much. My reaction was one of incredulous
horror and disgust. I was under the impression that this was meant to
be a simple, easy, clear language?

> A lot of python is based on C so thats where a good number of its quirks
> come from.

Indeed, and I personally gave up on C in the 1980s when I discovered
that I couldn't follow my /own/ code, let alone anyone else's.

> In the case of formatting I'd recommend looking up the "".format() style as
> for longer strings it can be a lot clearer.

I'm sure you're right, but I don't really anticipate ever needing such
things for anything I'd want to do.

> As for modulo division it's
> useful to know about but not used a lot (useful to know about though).

:¬)

I suspect that'd be more use to me than string-formatting.

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 14:44, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Operator overloading is pretty common. You'll note that a large number of
> languages, BASIC included, have + to signify arithmetic addition as well as
> string concatenation, and VB reuses & for string concatenation (very
> different from the bitwise 1 & 2).

These comments strike me as very much the thinking patterns of a
low-level system programmer. To me as a beginner and a rookie, + for
adding two (or more) things together /whatever they were/ made perfect
sense. It is only when I learned more that I learned that, from a
low-level storage point of view, they were two quite distinct
operations.

> It's not as common to roll your own in Python as it was in C++, but it makes
> certain things like sets more readable:
>
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/sets.html#example

So far over my head that I can't even see it as a speck, I'm afraid.

[Monty]

Most modern mail clients and the Google Groups web-interface default to top posting. It's neither harder or easier, you're just holding it wrong.

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 15:29, Monty <mont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most modern mail clients

... are broken...

> and the Google Groups web-interface default to top
> posting.

No it doesn't. It's just where it leaves the cursor. I'm typing in
Gmail. You press Ctrl-A, trim and move the cursor.

Leaving the cursor at the top no more "defaults to top quoting" than
not having pans on your cooker by default means you roast bits of food
over the rings directly.

Cars default to going straight. Oddly enough it is possible to steer them.

> It's neither harder or easier, you're just holding it wrong.

English reads from the top of the page to the bottom.

[Tim Reynolds]

...and this is why a python course is a good idea. So you understand why and how.

[S. Cook]

On 24 May 2013 15:21, Liam Proven <lpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 24 May 2013 14:40, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why do people top-quote on this list? It makes it so very much harder
to have an actual discussion.  :¬(

I do what ever makes sense to me depending on the type of reply. In this case addressing each point makes more sense, previously it was more of a single response so top posting was ok (for me). 

 

I am sure, but there are beginners and beginners. Stuff that makes
sense to one person often doesn't to another.

 

I think Oni will have to address quite what he expects people to know coming in but I expect he will soon enough.

 

Yes, I've gathered that much. My reaction was one of incredulous
horror and disgust. I was under the impression that this was meant to
be a simple, easy, clear language?

The specific use of the '%' is questionable but there's always going to be a problem with prior knowledge. Lots of people know C/C++/objective C so have the prior knowledge of the use of '%' for string formatting and modulo division. Coming in cold it may not make sense but any language will have that (e.g. why should '$' indicate a variable?)

 

Indeed, and I personally gave up on C in the 1980s when I discovered
that I couldn't follow my /own/ code, let alone anyone else's.

C is horrible for that, C++ less so but both are old and warped languages. Python is generally much easier to pick up, I certainly find reading python much easier than C/C++.

 

I suspect that'd be more use to me than string-formatting.

Fair enough, I find I only use it for printing output every X lines in data analysis (in fact it's such a fixed pattern I've had to check what '%' is actually doing because I'm so used to "X%1000==0: print..." that I don't really think about it.

Anyway this is now wildly off topic. 

Going in are there any particular topics/types of programming that people would like covered? (I don't know if Ben's got any specifics planned yet but would be useful for either this or future sessions).

S

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 15:42, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:
> ...and this is why a python course is a good idea. So you understand why and how.

And this is why bottom-quoting is a good idea, because I have no idea
which bit of my reply you are commenting to.

[SamLR]

On 24 May 2013 15:45, Liam Proven <lpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

And this is why bottom-quoting is a good idea, because I have no idea

which bit of my reply you are commenting to.

Can we leave the top/bottom/interleaved/unleaven/trek holy war alone please?  

Tim was responding to your comment about not understanding what Mark linked to. 

[Jonty Wareing]

> And this is why bottom-quoting is a good idea, because I have no idea
> which bit of my reply you are commenting to.

Continuing this discussion will result in your mailing list posts being
moderated. There are over 2000 people receiving your emails, and barely
any of them care about top posting.

--jonty

[Monty]

Press Ctrl-A, trim and move? Ain't body got time for that. Have you tried holding it the other way?

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 15:43, S. Cook <sc...@hep.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 24 May 2013 15:21, Liam Proven <lpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 May 2013 14:40, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Why do people top-quote on this list? It makes it so very much harder
>> to have an actual discussion. :¬(
>
>
> I do what ever makes sense to me depending on the type of reply. In this
> case addressing each point makes more sense, previously it was more of a
> single response so top posting was ok (for me).

That is a surprising sort of attitude to me, but fair enough. Whereas
unentangling a top-quoted conversation is very hard, untangling one
with mixed quoting patterns is so hard as to be impossible.

And yes, I realise I'm perpetuating one here. I do what I regard as
the Right Thing and have done since I got my first email address in
1985. The fact that few others do any more is their problem, not mine.

I have become a grumpy old git. :¬)

>> I am sure, but there are beginners and beginners. Stuff that makes
>> sense to one person often doesn't to another.
>
> I think Oni will have to address quite what he expects people to know coming
> in but I expect he will soon enough.

Fair enough!

>> Yes, I've gathered that much. My reaction was one of incredulous
>> horror and disgust. I was under the impression that this was meant to
>> be a simple, easy, clear language?
>
> The specific use of the '%' is questionable but there's always going to be a
> problem with prior knowledge. Lots of people know C/C++/objective C so have
> the prior knowledge of the use of '%' for string formatting and modulo
> division. Coming in cold it may not make sense but any language will have
> that (e.g. why should '$' indicate a variable?)

I had to think about that. To me, it means a string.

>> Indeed, and I personally gave up on C in the 1980s when I discovered
>> that I couldn't follow my /own/ code, let alone anyone else's.
>
> C is horrible for that, C++ less so but both are old and warped languages.

But sadly prevalent ones.

My general impression was that C++ is so vast and baroque that each
different coder uses a different subset, making the readability
problem even worse... no?

> Python is generally much easier to pick up, I certainly find reading python
> much easier than C/C++.

[Nod] This is my general impression.

>> I suspect that'd be more use to me than string-formatting.
>
> Fair enough, I find I only use it for printing output every X lines in data
> analysis (in fact it's such a fixed pattern I've had to check what '%' is
> actually doing because I'm so used to "X%1000==0: print..." that I don't
> really think about it.

Aha, ISWYM. This is not something I've ever really done so it's an
unfamiliar sort of task to me.

> Anyway this is now wildly off topic.
>
> Going in are there any particular topics/types of programming that people
> would like covered? (I don't know if Ben's got any specifics planned yet but
> would be useful for either this or future sessions).

"How do you remember all this stuff long enough to actually use it." :¬)

[SamLR]

On 24 May 2013 15:50, Liam Proven <lpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

My general impression was that C++ is so vast and baroque that each

different coder uses a different subset, making the readability
problem even worse... no?

The core of C++ is pretty small. There are some Lovecraftian things that can be done with it (Meta-templating I'm looking at you) but the core is pretty understandable. One of the biggest problems with any mature language is navigating the libraries available for it and understanding how they work and interact. Unfortunately as far as I know there's no easy way to deal with this other than experience.

I think the the biggest problem with C++ is that a lot of code that's written in it is done in a C style which favours short names (variable, function or struct) whilst a lot of modern languages really encourage people to use more verbose names. 

 

Aha, ISWYM. This is not something I've ever really done so it's an
unfamiliar sort of task to me.

Really useful trick (for me) but then I often have to leave jobs running for a few minutes and it's nice to know that it's actually running rather than dead.

 

"How do you remember all this stuff long enough to actually use it." :¬)

Easy, you don't you learn as much as you can, and then really learn what you end up using. The trick is in having an idea of the other ways things can be done so that if you need to you can look it up and change tack.

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2013 15:49, Jonty Wareing <jo...@jonty.co.uk> wrote:
> Continuing this discussion will result in your mailing list posts being
> moderated. There are over 2000 people receiving your emails, and barely
> any of them care about top posting.

[Sigh]

Very well.

[Benjamin Blundell]

So the actual date is now set as the 28th of July. 10am till 5pm. Code and text and such to follow :)

On 24 May 2013 16:02, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Chris Brasted]

Ack - that's me out then :(
All the best anyway...

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[alan hodes]

If anyone is interested, DIY Dev's will be having a meetup at Makers Academy on Tuesday 30 July (6.30-8.30 pm). There will be coding coursework for complete n00bies to established beginners in python, CSS, html and others with expert help on-hand in an environment purpose built for teaching computer coding. Best of all its free!

Find more info or join the group through the DIY Dev's page on meetup.com.

HTH
Alan Hodes