A hacker housing co-op? - London Hackspace

The old Google Groups will be going away soon, but your browser is incompatible with the new version.
Message from discussion A hacker housing co-op?
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sena...@googlemail.com designates 74.125.82.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.172;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <508DEA39.3090...@gmail.com>
References: <20121020180524.GB16...@unfinished.org.uk> <4cb570d5-af06-4019-82ce-56aa5276ad90@googlegroups.com>
 <9e9988d0-c5fa-4e94-b509-bd9b0ae69d7a@googlegroups.com> <5083B3A9.50...@googlemail.com>
 <5083D697.1040...@gmail.com> <f0eb2e70-baef-4a4a-9c5c-c7c1ed538...@a6g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>
 <6AC6E0C4-E20F-47AD-88D4-92B08643E...@gmail.com> <b03b09ff-e518-40e5-819e-7eb8f9b28ec9@googlegroups.com>
 <508DEA39.3090...@gmail.com>
From: Senake <sena...@googlemail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:55:21 +0000
Message-ID: <CAAsSiP4AopHgeeFm0=QuDVPhviaTvU9ZuZgaxcfs7oemLD9...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] A hacker housing co-op?
To: london-hack-space@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d62657dcabb604cd322ff9

--0016e6d62657dcabb604cd322ff9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eugene,

What a great idea for an app - not just for housing associations and
hackers - but potentially or any individual or family that is interested in
house sharing.

It could even be used to encourage house (and parental task) sharing for
families. An app that minimises commuting distance - as well as school run
and other regular journeys could potentially have huge environmental and
economic benefits if it was taken up widely.




Senake


On 29 October 2012 02:30, Eugene Nadyrshin <menta...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  As it maybe a few weeks yet before we meet I've been thinking if maybe
> it worthwhile making an quick geo location web app that puts interested
> people on the map ("privacy" nazis aside). The reason for it is that we'l=
l
> need to restrict our search for properties that are that works for the
> majority. The location could be where they work or where they'd like to b=
e.
> I'm thinking of making a basic algorithm that scores every new property o=
n
> the location.
>
> Thinking of doing something similar for the new space search as with our
> current requirements estate agents aren't coming up with anything new, so
> it would make sense to expand search area.
>
> Cheers
> Mentar
>
>
> On 21/10/12 23:17, Francis Davey wrote:
>
>
>
> Le dimanche 21 octobre 2012 17:55:44 UTC+1, Martin Dittus a =E9crit :
>>
>>
>> It's also worth mentioning that OneClickOrgs is now working with
>> Cooperatives UK to set up an online tool for cooperatives.
>>
>>
>  I wasn't sure if this was something I could mention, but now Martin has
> said so, yes, we are putting together something which should have an
> acceptable template constitution available from co-ops UK as a sponsoring
> organisation that is compatible with oneclicks e-governance.
>
>  I am of course doing none of the heavy lifting - even if I had time I'm
> a python man really and the coding is in ruby - so I don't know how that
> end is going.
>
>  Just a quick remark about how co-op constitutions work. To get the
> goodness out of being a housing co-op you should really incorporate as an
> Industrial and Provident Society (oooer). They are regulated by the FSA
> rather than Companies House. Registration of a society increases in price
> the more variations you have from a model constitution sponsored by a
> sponsoring organisation (like co-ops). Its different.
>
>  The "goodness" above is that a fully mutual housing co-operative avoids
> a lot of older housing legislation. The theory (not an unreasonable one) =
is
> that if all the tenants "own" the landlord then you can rely on tenant
> democracy to decide on things like eviction and can therefore not bother
> with lots of modern tenant protection law (assured (whether or not
> shorthold) tenancies don't exist for fully mutual housing co-ops for
> instance).
>
>  I say "older" because whoever it was in the relevant government
> department who knew about co-ops must have retired or somehow legislative
> drafters lost the plot, so some much more recent legislation doesn't have=
 a
> "but not co-ops" clause.
>
>  This created a cunning trap. Many (most?) housing co-ops had a clause in
> their tenancy agreements saying something along the lines of "we won't
> evict you unless you are bad". Which expresses what most intended. So in
> theory the co-op can evict at will, but in practice they won't, they'll g=
o
> through proper internal processes.
>
>  Alas, as any landlord and tenant law geek will tell you, a tenancy
> *must* have a fixed length. You can't have an indefinitely long tenancy.
> That's a contradiction in terms. The fixed length can be lots of baby fix=
ed
> lengths (eg weekly) but you can't have a "forever unless you are bad" typ=
e
> of tenancy. Error.
>
>  But we've been doing property law for centuries, so a long time ago the
> courts thought of a wheeze to get around this. An indefinite tenancy woul=
d
> be assumed to be a tenancy "for life" (for the life of the tenant). It th=
en
> has a specific and certain end-point, but obviously you have to wait to s=
ee
> when it will be. So its "fixed" but not certain. Life tenancies were ofte=
n
> used anyway because, obviously, you often want to say to someone "you can
> live here as long as you live" with the understanding you get back the
> property afterwards.
>
>  But in 1925 eager reformers in Parliament were having none of this. They
> wanted nice, fixed, length tenancies that you could always know, in
> advance, exactly when they would end. They included in the massive 1925
> land law reform a rule that any tenancy for life auto-converted into a 90
> year tenancy (which was long for a life in 1925) plus a provision it coul=
d
> be ended early if the tenant died.
>
>  In theory that means that any "we won't evict you unless you are bad"
> tenancy (such as a lot of co-ops had) would be "indefinite" and, under
> ancient common law rules, be treated as a tenancy for life (rather than
> just failing) and then auto-converted by the 1925 Act to 90 year tenancie=
s.
> So, secretly, even though they didn't know it, all those tenants of housi=
ng
> co-ops actually had 90 year tenancies.
>
>  So the Supreme Court found a couple of years ago.
>
>  So that was very weird, but careful examination showed the weirdness was
> worse than it seemed because of ignorant 21st century law makers - who
> probably slept through Land Law at university, assuming they ever attende=
d
> the lectures. In 2002 they passed legislation containing a bunch of rules
> to protect long leaseholders. One rule required a landlord to notify a
> tenant between 30 and 60 days in advance of any rent being due. That work=
s
> fine for *annual* rents of =A31 or a red rose, but does not make sense fo=
r a
> tenant paying weekly on housing benefit.
>
>  Hence: totally ridiculous situation.
>
>  Hence therefore my remark that there's are a few things that require
> care when putting together a housing co-op.
>
>  Please forgive my brain dump. I will let you get back to all the
> wonderful things you do with real objects.
>
>
>> I'll happily refer any hacker co-op groups to the appropriate people if
>> needed.
>
>
>  Excellent. If anyone wants to talk to one-click about it, Martin is your
> man.
>
> Francis
>
>
>

--0016e6d62657dcabb604cd322ff9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eugene,<br><br>What a great idea for an app - not just for housing associat=
ions and hackers - but potentially or any individual or family that is inte=
rested in house sharing. <br><br>It could even be used to encourage house (=
and parental task) sharing for families. An app that minimises commuting di=
stance - as well as school run and other regular journeys could potentially=
 have huge environmental and economic benefits if it was taken up widely.<b=
r>

<br><br><br><br>Senake<br>=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 Octob=
er 2012 02:30, Eugene Nadyrshin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:men=
ta...@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">menta...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <div>As it maybe a few weeks yet before we
      meet I&#39;ve been thinking if maybe it worthwhile making an quick ge=
o
      location web app that puts interested people on the map (&quot;privac=
y&quot;
      nazis aside). The reason for it is that we&#39;ll need to restrict ou=
r
      search for properties that are that works for the majority. The
      location could be where they work or where they&#39;d like to be. I&#=
39;m
      thinking of making a basic algorithm that scores every new
      property on the location.<br>
      <br>
      Thinking of doing something similar for the new space search as
      with our current requirements estate agents aren&#39;t coming up with
      anything new, so it would make sense to expand search area.<br>
      <br>
      Cheers<br>
      Mentar<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
      <br>
      On 21/10/12 23:17, Francis Davey wrote:<br>
    </div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>
      <br>
      Le dimanche 21 octobre 2012 17:55:44 UTC+1, Martin Dittus a
      =E9crit=A0:
      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
        <br>
        It&#39;s also worth mentioning that OneClickOrgs is now working wit=
h
        Cooperatives UK to set up an online tool for cooperatives.
        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I wasn&#39;t sure if this was something I could mention, but now
        Martin has said so, yes, we are putting together something which
        should have an acceptable template constitution available from
        co-ops UK as a sponsoring organisation that is compatible with
        oneclicks e-governance.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I am of course doing none of the heavy lifting - even if I
        had time I&#39;m a python man really and the coding is in ruby - so
        I don&#39;t know how that end is going.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Just a quick remark about how co-op constitutions work. To
        get the goodness out of being a housing co-op you should really
        incorporate as an Industrial and Provident Society (oooer). They
        are regulated by the FSA rather than Companies House.
        Registration of a society increases in price the more variations
        you have from a model constitution sponsored by a sponsoring
        organisation (like co-ops). Its different.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>The &quot;goodness&quot; above is that a fully mutual housing
        co-operative avoids a lot of older housing legislation. The
        theory (not an unreasonable one) is that if all the tenants
        &quot;own&quot; the landlord then you can rely on tenant democracy =
to
        decide on things like eviction and can therefore not bother with
        lots of modern tenant protection law (assured (whether or not
        shorthold) tenancies don&#39;t exist for fully mutual housing co-op=
s
        for instance).</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I say &quot;older&quot; because whoever it was in the relevant
        government department who knew about co-ops must have retired or
        somehow legislative drafters lost the plot, so some much more
        recent legislation doesn&#39;t have a &quot;but not co-ops&quot; cl=
ause.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>This created a cunning trap. Many (most?) housing co-ops had
        a clause in their tenancy agreements saying something along the
        lines of &quot;we won&#39;t evict you unless you are bad&quot;. Whi=
ch
        expresses what most intended. So in theory the co-op can evict
        at will, but in practice they won&#39;t, they&#39;ll go through pro=
per
        internal processes.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Alas, as any landlord and tenant law geek will tell you, a
        tenancy *must* have a fixed length. You can&#39;t have an
        indefinitely long tenancy. That&#39;s a contradiction in terms. The
        fixed length can be lots of baby fixed lengths (eg weekly) but
        you can&#39;t have a &quot;forever unless you are bad&quot; type of=
 tenancy.
        Error.=A0</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>But we&#39;ve been doing property law for centuries, so a long
        time ago the courts thought of a wheeze to get around this. An
        indefinite tenancy would be assumed to be a tenancy &quot;for life&=
quot;
        (for the life of the tenant). It then has a specific and certain
        end-point, but obviously you have to wait to see when it will
        be. So its &quot;fixed&quot; but not certain. Life tenancies were o=
ften
        used anyway because, obviously, you often want to say to someone
        &quot;you can live here as long as you live&quot; with the understa=
nding
        you get back the property afterwards.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>But in 1925 eager reformers in Parliament were having none of
        this. They wanted nice, fixed, length tenancies that you could
        always know, in advance, exactly when they would end. They
        included in the massive 1925 land law reform a rule that any
        tenancy for life auto-converted into a 90 year tenancy (which
        was long for a life in 1925) plus a provision it could be ended
        early if the tenant died.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>In theory that means that any &quot;we won&#39;t evict you unles=
s you
        are bad&quot; tenancy (such as a lot of co-ops had) would be
        &quot;indefinite&quot; and, under ancient common law rules, be trea=
ted as
        a tenancy for life (rather than just failing) and then
        auto-converted by the 1925 Act to 90 year tenancies. So,
        secretly, even though they didn&#39;t know it, all those tenants of
        housing co-ops actually had 90 year tenancies.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>So the Supreme Court found a couple of years ago.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>So that was very weird, but careful examination showed the
        weirdness was worse than it seemed because of ignorant 21st
        century law makers - who probably slept through Land Law at
        university, assuming they ever attended the lectures. In 2002
        they passed legislation containing a bunch of rules to protect
        long leaseholders. One rule required a landlord to notify a
        tenant between 30 and 60 days in advance of any rent being due.
        That works fine for *annual* rents of =A31 or a red rose, but does
        not make sense for a tenant paying weekly on housing benefit.=A0</d=
iv>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Hence: totally ridiculous situation.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Hence therefore my remark that there&#39;s are a few things that
        require care when putting together a housing co-op.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Please forgive my brain dump. I will let you get back to all
        the wonderful things you do with real objects.</div>
      <div>=A0</div>
      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I&#39;ll
        happily refer any hacker co-op groups to the appropriate people
        if needed.=A0</blockquote>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Excellent. If anyone wants to talk to one-click about it,
        Martin is your man.</div>
      <div><br>
        Francis=A0<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br>

--0016e6d62657dcabb604cd322ff9--
Create a group - Google Groups - Google Home - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy
Account Options
