Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

[Simon Howes]

Okay. And. Rage email.

The 3 in 1 is now covered in rust. Completely. Every bit of it looks like an old workshop machine. You can see where it stops by turning the tailstock screw - shiny metal underneath, brown sludge on top. The toolpost, chuck guard, saddle... The whole fucking thing is covered in rust. Eject the center - inside bit shiny metal, center looks like something from the 50s.

What did someone do? Clean it down with fucking bleach and water?

I have sprayed it all down with wd40 to stop the corrosion but its not going to be a shiny machine anymore. Who the fuck did this?

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Have people not been giving it a coat of sealing oil after cleaning it?
With how open the doors are in the space, wet weather, big cold lump of
iron in a relatively warm space, it's begging for surface condensation
and rust.

All machine tools should have an oil wipe-down regularly to prevent
this. For this to happen so suddenly though is surprising. Did someone
actually de-grease it?

[Simon Howes]

This has happened suddenly happened, see my next post with pic. You can see the tailstock quill - all shiny where it was wound into the machine, all corroded where it was exposed. Black and white. Wtf happened?

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I left a new tool in my shed without protective oil for about a week and
it developed a similar level of surface rust. So my guess is someone's
degreased the machine during all this wet weather. :(

If it's happened in less time than that though, no idea.

On 16/05/2012 13:26, Simon Howes wrote:
> This has happened suddenly happened, see my next post with pic. You can
> see the tailstock quill - all shiny where it was wound into the machine,
> all corroded where it was exposed. Black and white. Wtf happened?
>
> On May 16, 2012 1:23 PM, "Peter "Sci" Turpin" <s...@sci-fi-fox.com

[Simon Howes]

Sorry guys, I probably shouldnt have raged and sweared about this like I did, it just really upset me. I started the pledge for this machine and donated a lot of money (£300 and £100 in tooling), raised awareness for the pledge, assembled it, trained people on it and have done continual maintenance on it.

The painted and chrome bits of the machine are okay, but all of the exposed bits of bare metal have been oxidized. In other words the working bits. That means the chuck, its jaws, the bed, the saddle, the quill. By taking drastic action (spraying it with wd40) I've prevented further corrosion. But the damage is done.

This is not something which has happened gradually - all through the long wet winter this machine has stayed oiled and shiny. I did some maintenance on the slideways (including re-oiling) just recently. This has happened literally overnight.

By the look of things it was cleaned by something which attacked it. All the bits that are visible when you're standing in front of the machine show signs of attack. As if someone wiped it down. We're also considering the possibility that something noxious placed in the kiln released something like chlorine which attacked the machine, but it seems unlikely it would have got through the oil.

Now the machine looks more like the old lathe we got from the bike garage. Worn out. I dont doubt that with phosphoric acid, a good bit of work, and some re-oiling we can remove the oxide and make it look a bit better, but it will never be shiny again.

I want to support the community and I really like to help out, and I do believe in the innate good in people, but this is a kick in the guts. It's a dealbreaker.

[SamLR]

Hey

I used the kiln about a week and a half ago but predominately worked with already refined aluminium. I had the extracter fan on the entire time and the only material I did refine was dead HDDs that we've used many times before. I don't think (and certainly hope) this caused the damage. I'm out of the country until June 25th but if work is still needed then I'm more than happy to dedicate some time to helping clean (as much as anything to get to know the machine better). 

This really sucks. 

Sorry Abby

S

[Russ Garrett]

I find it *highly* unlikely that the kiln was able to output a gas
which was such a potent oxidising agent that it managed to rust the
lathe on contact, and yet didn't succeed in instantly killing the
person operating the kiln. Science says no.

This was almost certainly caused by someone using (or cleaning) the lathe.

Russ

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[SamLR]

I did assume that was the case it was more in the spirit of full disclosure, as I said I wasn't doing anything I haven't done before. 

And as Simon says it was oiled.

Is it possible to get a full set of photos of all the bits that need an oil? 

S

[pad...@padski.co.uk]

I stood and stared at it either yesterday or Monday as something looked odd but it was not rust, it was reverse jaws..  I'm sure I would have noticed rust all over.

Sent from my thing.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Simon Howes" <simonh...@googlemail.com>
To: <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [london-hack-space] Chemical attack on the 3 in 1
Date: Wed, May 16, 2012 14:43

Sorry guys, I probably shouldnt have raged and sweared about this like I did, it just really upset me. I started the pledge for this machine and donated a lot of money (£300 and £100 in tooling), raised awareness for the pledge, assembled it, trained people on it and have done continual maintenance on it.

The painted and chrome bits of the machine are okay, but all of the exposed bits of bare metal have been oxidized. In other words the working bits. That means the chuck, its jaws, the bed, the saddle, the quill. By taking drastic action (spraying it with wd40) I've prevented further corrosion.. But the damage is done.

[tom]

I came in last night and noticed that the workshop seemed a lot cleaner than normal, did someone have a rage-clean this weekend? I might have been done at the same time as that?

[Nin Lil'izi]

Slightly on topic.
Just curious. Is cleaning things in the workshop with water+bleach+sugar soap generally a bad idea?

I've not touched the 3-in-1, thankfully by the sound of it... But it's my usual mo to attack anything I come into contact with that combo just out of good general hygine.

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622

[Steff]

On 16 May 2012 16:27, Nin Lil'izi <nin-l...@phoenixhaven.net> wrote:
> Slightly on topic.
> Just curious. Is cleaning things in the workshop with water+bleach+sugar
> soap generally a bad idea?
>
> I've not touched the 3-in-1, thankfully by the sound of it... But it's my
> usual mo to attack anything I come into contact with that combo just out of
> good general hygine.

In general, machine tools are not built to be corrosion-resistant.
Thus they like to be dry and coated in oil (preferably oil formulated
specially for the purpose, especially if you're using a water-based
coolant/cutting fluid). They should only be degreased during major
maintenance (to allow the removal of swarf) and then for the shortest
time possible.

S

[Toby Catlin]

That basically means definitely no sugar soap, it won't like bleach at
all and preferably no water.
Right?

[Martin Dittus]

If someone has cleaned the 3-in-1 in the last few days, could you contact a person in this thread (or me or any other trustee) and tell them that you have now heard the news and realised the impact it has had?

We don't want to flame people publicly when they come forward for having made a mistake. But I think we all would like to know that such mailing list discussions are read by the right people, because the ultimate alternative is a severe lock-down of all tools.

m.

[Nin Lil'izi]

ai, got it.
This is the sort of thing that is non-obvious enough for non machanical hackers, that maybe some sort of no bleach here or general cleaning guidelines signage and laminated up in obvious place may help such a thing happening in the future?

Maybe a "Oi, before cleaning me... Read this IMPORTANT wiki page sticker" or 2?
I'd volunteer.. but lack the right knowledge or easy access to the space.

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622

[Steff]

On 16 May 2012 16:38, Toby Catlin <to...@korfball.com> wrote:
> That basically means definitely no sugar soap, it won't like bleach at
> all and preferably no water.
> Right?

Yep. The oil already on the machine won't be water-soluble in any
case, so you're better off using an organic (chemical sense, not food
sense) solvent like white spirit to get the existing gunk off. The
hackspace doesn't seem short of people who know their way around the
machines, so if there's any doubt wait for one of them to turn up. In
particular, leaving the machine dirty and not using it won't hurt, but
removing the protective oil layer definitely will (as we've seen).

S

[Michael Stevens]

As a generally non hackspace visitor, is there some "care and feeding of
the machines" course that either exists or could be created?

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 04:46:19PM +0100, Nin Lil'izi wrote:
> ai, got it.
> This is the sort of thing that is non-obvious enough for non machanical
> hackers, that maybe some sort of no bleach here or general cleaning
> guidelines signage and laminated up in obvious place may help such a
> thing happening in the future?
>
> Maybe a "Oi, before cleaning me... Read this IMPORTANT wiki page
> sticker" or 2?
> I'd volunteer.. but lack the right knowledge or easy access to the space.
>
> Regards,

> /Nin lil'izi/

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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<totally off-topic, and more to insert some light-hearted comic relief>

On 16 May 2012, at 16:41, Martin Dittus wrote:

> the ultimate alternative is a severe lock-down of all tools.

I read this as "ultimate alternative is a severe lock-down of all TROLLS." Which wouldn't necessairly be a bad thing.

That's all, nothing constructive to add. Maybe the person didn't know what they were doing was destructive (which would beg the question...why were they using it?....)?

It might be worth giving the benefit of the doubt (but ultimately, lack of knowledge...see above point).

</totally off-topic>

Is it something that can be fixed without spending piles of money? I hope so.

=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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Hash: SHA1

Not a bad idea, but I would personally say if you don't know what you are doing with a potentially deadly piece of kit (in my case normally electricity and lasers), stay away from it as you can a) kill yourself, and (potentially worse!!!) b) kill it.

It's not a "general purpose" piece of equipment, hence you need to know what you're doing. If you want to clean it, learn how to use it?

That has always been how I approach potentially life threatening stuff.

But the sentiment of what you're saying is right...

On 16 May 2012, at 16:51, Michael Stevens wrote:

> As a generally non hackspace visitor, is there some "care and feeding of
> the machines" course that either exists or could be created?
>
> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 04:46:19PM +0100, Nin Lil'izi wrote:
>> ai, got it.
>> This is the sort of thing that is non-obvious enough for non machanical
>> hackers, that maybe some sort of no bleach here or general cleaning
>> guidelines signage and laminated up in obvious place may help such a
>> thing happening in the future?
>>
>> Maybe a "Oi, before cleaning me... Read this IMPORTANT wiki page
>> sticker" or 2?
>> I'd volunteer.. but lack the right knowledge or easy access to the space.
>

=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[phil jones]

Didn't I read that the hackspace had hired a cleaner recently? Any
chance that said cleaner wasn't warned off soap and water?

phil

[Robert Leverington]

On 2012-05-16, phil jones wrote:
> Didn't I read that the hackspace had hired a cleaner recently? Any
> chance that said cleaner wasn't warned off soap and water?

Our cleaner does not clean the workshop and has not been in the space
during the period that the damage was caused to the 3-in-1.

Robert

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I haven't been to the space for a few weeks (exams and shit) but logic might say (if it could talk) that the cleaner would have cleaned it a while ago if she was going to clean it at all? But I suppose to you can't rule it out.

If the subject was going to be brought up with her, it would need to be done very delicately. You can't "accuse" someone of fscking up some piece of machinery with no real evidence - certainly someone who might not "be down with the hackspace shit". *Not* saying thats what would happen...

On 16 May 2012, at 18:44, phil jones wrote:

> Didn't I read that the hackspace had hired a cleaner recently? Any
> chance that said cleaner wasn't warned off soap and water?
>
> phil
>

=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Dave Ingram]

I'm starting to wonder whether we need a simple set of posters with large simple icon-type pictures explaining many things about each tool:

• what material(s) it can be used with (wood, metal, ...)
  
• whether cleaning [a] can be done by anyone (with suitable materials, listed on the poster), [b] can be done by anyone who's trained to use it, or [c] requires very knowledgable person (e.g. laser cutter)
• cost for usage/consumables

If anyone thinks this might be useful then I'd be up for trying to put an example or two together, just to show what I mean. For the symbols, I'm imagining something in the style of the Portal hazard symbols. Full text details will of course be on the posters too, but the icons might be quicker for a reminder.




D

[phil jones]

I certainly didn't mean this as a criticism of the cleaner. Just that
this is an "innocent" explanation before we start assuming that a
member was careless.

phil

[Mark Steward]

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:

That's all, nothing constructive to add. Maybe the person didn't know what they were doing was destructive (which would beg the question...why were they using it?....)?

It might be worth giving the benefit of the doubt (but ultimately, lack of knowledge...see above point).

</totally off-topic>

Is it something that can be fixed without spending piles of money? I hope so.

I think there's no question of this being intentional, and I think it's also unlikely to be recklessness.  Finding someone to blame is pointless - we should cultivate respect and understanding for tools to prevent something like this happening again.  Perhaps we need a physical "how not to break the workshop" guide?

Mark

[Russ Garrett]

The cleaner doesn't clean the workshop, so it wasn't her.

[Luke Taylor]

I think this is a great idea Dave.

Rather than random posters/notices everywhere, each device (where possible) should have a data poster, detailing restrictions, usage instructions, cleaning method, etc. as you said.

I reckon they should be in a concise standard templated format with a unique design (colours/symbols) so that people can instantly recognise them as sources of information.

I like the idea of symbols too for the main points (e.g. A large red T for equipment that requires you to be trained).

I'd like to see your examples.

Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

---

From: Dave Ingram <da...@dmi.me.uk>

Sender: london-h...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:53:53 +0100

To: <london-h...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: london-h...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Don't suppose the cameras caught it, since it's apparently happened
within a limited timeframe?

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

At least for removing packing grease, old grease residues, I use neat
parafin. It softens and dilutes it enough to be wiped off easily. Once
wiped off I wipe my tools down with some basic 10/40 oil on all bare
surfaces, and get lithium grease on all the bearings & mechanical parts.

I have been warned though that some older or precision machines may be
susceptible to chemicals or acids in certain lubricants. So YMMV for
re-lubricating. Basically everyone should Read The Manual before doing
even cursory maintainance like cleaning on these very expensive machines.

[Adrian Godwin]

The workshop cam doesn't reach the lathe, as it's obscured by the shelving.

TODO : relocate workshop cam so it has better coverage, fix whatever's
stopping it tilting properly.

[Adrian Godwin]

Thanks for asking. It's always best to ask if you're unsure.

Bleach, sugar-soap etc. is OK on typical domestic surfaces such as
plastics and paint. Bleach may yellow some plastics but in general
it's pretty safe. However, metals (except stainless steel) need
different treatment - and this doesn't just apply to the lathe but to
any tools.

Metalworking tools such as cutting equipment might need degreasing but
should always be oiled again afterwards. Ask rather than guess,
especially with expensive stuff.

Woodworking equipment also needs cleaning, but rather than oil a wax
polish is commonly used to protect it from moisture. This leaves the
surfaces gliding smoothly on wood without leaving oil to mark the
work. There may be exceptions to this, I'm pretty amateur at woodwork.
Again, ask - and if the person you ask is unsure, ask again. Or ask
the list.

-adrian


On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Nin Lil'izi

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Unknown if it'll help, but I've been poking at some dirt-cheap
borderline disposable webcams for projects where many are needed or may
be readily ruined.
At (now) �4.29 each, the Xbox webcam gives lovely quality footage for
the price. Could just add some extra fixed angles cheaply?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gt8lIcrSXE (see 8:56 for it's test footage)

(part 2's going to have teardowns & technical notes, but is unrelated here)

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Will remember the tip about the wax. Haven't done any fine work with
mine yet, so oil's not been a problem so far.
Will change that once I get my sharpening stones.

[Nin Lil'izi]

There was the recent talk about making informational vids about the space for youtube.
A few Care and feeding of our expensive tools vids can't hurt, maybe?

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622

 .
..:

[Simon Howes]

Right then. This probably happened on tuesday night.
Something was being turned between centers.. who was using the machine? Did anyone see anything?

[Matt Peperell]

If it happened on Tuesday then I suspect it happened early; when I was giving tours I noticed that the workshop was both unusually quiet and unusually tidy. So if the lathe-cleaning was done at the same time as the rest of the workshop then it would have been before 1900.

On 17 May 2012 08:48, "Simon Howes" <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Right then. This probably happened on tuesday night.
Something was being turned between centers.. who was using the machine? Did anyone see anything?

On May 17, 2012 3:01 AM, "Nin Lil'izi" <nin-l...@phoenixhaven.net> wrote:
>

> There was the rec...

[Kal]

I had this idea ages ago, but never got round to doing it.... well volunteered?

[Paddy Duncan]

Not wishing to sound pessimistic but....

Someone kindly labelled all the bins yesterday with the kinds of rubbish they should be used for.

And this morning it is apparent that they have all been totally ignored.

Paddy

 

---

From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kal
Sent: 17 May 2012 12:21

To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5004 - Release Date: 05/16/12

[Billy]

At least the person that did this was trying to keep the workshop
clean.

What about a maintenance workshop for the 3'in'1?

I'd like to learn how to strip it down and re-build it.

On May 17, 12:29 pm, "Paddy Duncan" <pad...@padski.co.uk> wrote:
> Not wishing to sound pessimistic but....
> Someone kindly labelled all the bins yesterday with the kinds of rubbish
> they should be used for.
> And this morning it is apparent that they have all been totally ignored.
> Paddy
>
>   _____
>

> From: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kal
> Sent: 17 May 2012 12:21
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Chemical attack on the 3 in 1
>
> I had this idea ages ago, but never got round to doing it.... well
> volunteered?
>
> On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:53:53 UTC+1, Dave (DMI) Ingram wrote:
>
> I'm starting to wonder whether we need a simple set of posters with large
> simple icon-type pictures explaining many things about each tool:
>

> *       what material(s) it can be used with (wood, metal, ...)
>
> *       whether cleaning [a] can be done by anyone (with suitable materials,

> listed on the poster), [b] can be done by anyone who's trained to use it, or
> [c] requires very knowledgable person (e.g. laser cutter)
>

> *       cost for usage/consumables

> Comment: GPGTools -http://gpgtools.org

>
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>
> =XBKl
>
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>   _____
>

[Simon Howes]

Just typed a massive message to list on what rescue move needs to be done, but its vanished into the gmail ether. Did anyone see this? Its not in my sent items or anysuch, so wondering if its a local glitch or if i need retype it

[SamLR]

Not seen anything, sorry dude

[Simon Howes]

Beautiful, its stuck in my gmail outbox with 1 item. But invisible.

I give up man.

[Paddy Duncan]

An interesting update:

All of the chisels I recently sharpened still had a mirror finish a few days ago..

Now they are all corroded.....

Was there a water fight?

Paddy 

---

From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Howes
Sent: 17 May 2012 12:59
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

[Mike Harrison]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 13:18:43 +0100, you wrote:

>An interesting update:
>All of the chisels I recently sharpened still had a mirror finish a few days
>ago..
>Now they are all corroded.....
>Was there a water fight?
>Paddy

Just wondering if the machine is anywhere near the etch tank? A hot tank of fresh FeCl left on for
afew hours can give off quite acidic fumes, and I've seen this cause extreme rusting in a confined
space.

[Jim MacArthur]

No, it's in the opposite corner of the workshop, and the etch tanks
have been in use for a long time before this incident.

Jim

[Adrian Godwin]

No, opposite corner of the room. Maybe overheating for a long time
with the lid off would do it, but I think everyone would choke and
we'd know about it.

The other etchant is also capable of doing this (HCl fumes) but I've
had a tank of it in a small room for over a year now and it hasn't
even attacked the copper pipes.

-adrian

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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Hash: SHA1

I sent the below to someone off list as I thought it might be misconstrued as being negative and trying to keep people away from getting involved, which certainly was not the intention --

Giving instructions to be people who don't know what they are doing how to do something like cleaning a piece of equipment can be as dangerous - what happens if someone uses water to clean something electrical (I have seen it happen). If you don't know how something works you make assumptions about it, and in the wrong circumstances that can be bad.

However, saying that, if it could be worded to show you wanted to involve *everyone* in a) training and then b) usage maybe it wouldn't sound negative.

Something like:


"Would you like to use or help with this piece of equipment? EXCELLENT!! We want more people involved.

If so, talk to Ebenezer, Joseph or Frederick and they'll happily teach you.

If you don't want to help with it that's ok too. But we ask you to please leave the care and maintenance to the professionals (or maybe worded as "those who are trained").

This equipment can be dangerous, is kinda special, needs to be handled and maintained (or maybe worded as "taken care of") by trained people."

As an example - I am a fairly "engineery" person but I know I am not experienced with mechanical/metalwork/woodwork stuff, I've love to have the time to learn. Since I don't know how to use them, I stay away from them as I know enough to have a respect, and slight (rational) fear of them.

Just my 2 cent (or whatever the going currency is nowadays...)

Bernard

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=xpkE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Nin Lil'izi]

Admittedly, there is a difference between how to not derp labels on expensive kit. And the silly hippy recycling fantasy that I heard as motivation for bin labling.... Not breaking the toys is important. Recycling is a weird occupy fetish that just makes me feel dirty.
ie, one matters the other not so... As unless the recycler starts taking on bin emptying it will all just end up in the same skip outside anyway.
Ok, tossing the sorted rubbish all in the same skip I do claim responsibility for.


Regards,
/Nin lil'izi/

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622
 .
..:

On 17/05/12 12:29, Paddy Duncan wrote:

> Not wishing to sound pessimistic but....
> Someone kindly labelled all the bins yesterday with the kinds of rubbish they should be used for.
> And this morning it is apparent that they have all been totally ignored.
> Paddy
>

> -------------------------
> *From:* london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Kal
> *Sent:* 17 May 2012 12:21
> *To:* london-h...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [london-hack-space] Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

>
> I had this idea ages ago, but never got round to doing it.... well volunteered?
>
> On Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:53:53 UTC+1, Dave (DMI) Ingram wrote:
>
> I'm starting to wonder whether we need a simple set of posters with large simple icon-type pictures explaining many things about each tool:
>

> * what material(s) it can be used with (wood, metal, ...)
> * whether cleaning [a] can be done by anyone (with suitable materials, listed on the poster), [b] can be done by anyone who's trained to use it, or [c] requires very knowledgable person (e.g. laser cutter)
> * cost for usage/consumables

>
> If anyone thinks this might be useful then I'd be up for trying to put an example or two together, just to show what I mean. For the symbols, I'm imagining something in the style of the Portal hazard symbols. Full text details will of course be on the posters too, but the icons might be quicker for a reminder.
>
>
>
>
> D
>
>
> On 16/05/12 18:43, Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb wrote:

Not a bad idea, but I would personally say if you don't know what you are doing with a potentially deadly piece of kit (in my case normally electricity and lasers), stay away from it as you can a) kill yourself, and (potentially worse!!!) b) kill it.

It's not a "general purpose" piece of equipment, hence you need to know what you're doing. If you want to clean it, learn how to use it?

That has always been how I approach potentially life threatening stuff.

But the sentiment of what you're saying is right...


On 16 May 2012, at 16:51, Michael Stevens wrote:

>>>     As a generally non hackspace visitor, is there some "care and feeding of
>>>     the machines" course that either exists or could be created?
>>>
>>>     On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 04:46:19PM +0100, Nin Lil'izi wrote:
>>>>     ai, got it.
>>>>     This is the sort of thing that is non-obvious enough for non machanical
>>>>     hackers, that maybe some sort of no bleach here or general cleaning
>>>>     guidelines signage and laminated up in obvious place may help such a
>>>>     thing happening in the future?
>>>>
>>>>     Maybe a "Oi, before cleaning me... Read this IMPORTANT wiki page
>>>>     sticker" or 2?
>>>>     I'd volunteer.. but lack the right knowledge or easy access to the space.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org <http://www.ei8fdb.org>

>
> -------------------------

>
> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

[Simon Howes]

Awesome, looks like the reply I spent 10 mins typing out on my smartphone is now infinitely stuck in the gmail outbox but also invisible. one day it may even resurface.

On my air now, but paraphrasing as I'm typing this in the office in a hurry while DB queries execute.

One of the possibilities we have considered is that some putty cured in the kiln was the cause of the corrosion, The piece about 10cm diameter and 25mm thick got scorched and released an invisible choking cloud in the workshop which took some hours to dissipate. I have got ahold of the clay and it is in my box, I shall be conducting some mythbusters experiments on it at a later time. If this was the case then it is something completely unforseen and we need to up the quality of ventilation on the kiln and post some warnings. It may also be someone cleaning the lathe with bleach or something. No witch hunts.. yet. I need the lathe working before I can craft my rage harpoon of greater enlightenment.

Rage aside there is something really important I missed yesterday. I sprayed the visible red rusty bits of the machine down with WD40 - this hides some of the redness but the key is it prevents further corrosion from moisture by displacing water.

But I didn't get it in everywhere, and worse - if there is some nasty agent in there eating away at the metal then it may not stop it. Our machine may be turning into a big ball of rust right in front of us. I'm going to try and come in after work to take emergency measures but I've just been informed I may be expected to stay to 10pm tonight. Oh, and the weekend too.

Someone competent please keep the faith, make me believe in the innate goodness of man again and the hax - the job that needs to be done is the following:

Below  the 3 in 1 is a bottle of phosphoric acid, you need goggles and gloves to handle this.

It is a potent rust remover. It smells nice too, but dont let that fool you on the safety side.

Basically what needs to be done is the following: all the exposed surfaces (saddle, slides, the toolpost and vice and quill) need to be cleaned with phosphoric acid (using paper towels) then wiped down with white spirits and finally have a thin layer of oil applied. Dont skip the last step as it'll just rust again.

The vice toolpost combo should be removed from the saddle as there will be a rust spot beneath it. This all needs to be dissasembled and cleaned. Dont take the saddle apart though! (just take the vice off)

Very importantly - do not use the rust remover on the telescopic black metal screw protector. This has a special coating on it, so if you use it it will be removed and be prone to rust. I found this out the hard way on my cnc lathe. Use only white spirits and oil on the cover. This is the big black leafy springy thing.

Finally, the 3 jaw chuck needs to have its jaws removed and have the same treatment and - very importantly the chuck needs to be removed from the lathe and opened. Inside is a spiral piece of metal - this moves the jaws. If something nasty got in here our chuck will no longer run true and may even sieze up. The whole mechanism needs the entire treatment.

[Nin Lil'izi]

No idea. I don't normally do tuesdays... I mostly skulk around when I know the place will be either mostly empty or dead.

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622
 .
..:

[Nigel Worsley]

> One of the possibilities we have considered is that some putty cured in the kiln was the cause of the corrosion

Maybe it wasn't putty but polymer clay eg. Fimo. That stuff is mostly PVC aka Poly Vinyl Chloride and needs to
be hardened at something like 130�C, the kiln is not the right tool for this job!

> released an invisible choking cloud in the workshop which took some hours to dissipate.

Fimo starts to release hydrogen chloride gas at 200�C. It is colourless, choking and forms hydrochloric acid
in contact with atmospheric humidity.

Case closed, I think.

Nigle

[Paddy Duncan]

Yes, Fimo was moulding was happening...

-----Original Message-----
From: london-h...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Worsley
Sent: 17 May 2012 15:04
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

-----

[Simon Howes]

How foolish of me to think someone might have goofed at  cleaning when they could be filling the workshop with toxic choking toxic acid gas instead /troll

Errr. This makes it even more importan that someone does the things I mentioned in my earlier thread? Can someone help out please?

[Russ Garrett]

On 17 May 2012 15:46, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> How foolish of me to think someone might have goofed at  cleaning when they
> could be filling the workshop with toxic choking toxic acid gas instead
> /troll

I'm not sure this is any better. I'm rather surprised that it emitted
enough HCl to cause the lathe to spontaneously rust, but didn't leave
anyone with a serious injury.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Simon Howes]

Stainless items on the desk next to the kiln were okay, but nuts and bolts were the same weird off brown colour. As were the lathe chuck keys which were magnetically attached to the power conduit to the side of the kiln.

Anyway, easy experiment to recreate...

[Paddy Duncan]

Luckily (maybe) people don't oxidise so easily as high carbon steel...

-----Original Message-----
From: london-h...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russ Garrett
Sent: 17 May 2012 15:54
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

-----

[Simon Howes]

Apparently the workshop was empty at the time (wed morning) but people were severely coughing when they got near the kiln and the invisible fumes.

[Nick Bradbeer]

I think the thing that most amazes me is that the release of a large cloud of choking gas didn't merit discussion on the mailing list at the time. (Or did I just miss that?)

Nick

[Nin Lil'izi]

Has anybody checked under the quiet room desks for stretcher loads of asphixiated hackers?
Dead man tells no tales.

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622
 .
..:

[Toby Catlin]

Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't a acidic gas cloud clean an oxide
layer from metal? or is the theory the gas stripped the grease layer
and left it exposed to moist air?
Amazing story none the less and a warning to hackspacers everywhere

t

[Alec Wright]

And left it covered in chloride corrosion instead.... Which should be
water soluble. Perhaps with a good clean and a re-oiling, it could be
good as new again.

[Russ Garrett]

On 17 May 2012 16:37, Toby Catlin <to...@korfball.com> wrote:

> Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't a acidic gas cloud clean an oxide
> layer from metal? or is the theory the gas stripped the grease layer
> and left it exposed to moist air?

All acids will react with metal, but some acids will do it quicker
than others. Phosphoric acid (which is what we generally use for
removing rust) will react with the iron oxide a lot quicker than with
the iron. HCl will react with pretty much anything given half a chance
- it's a much stronger acid.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Simon Howes]

Hi,

Just to recap and hopefully push signal over other noise ratio I am unable to make it into the space to do any emergency maintenance on the machine. I suspect more corrosion will probably take place (please see my prior email). So if there is someone around with the know-how it'd be fantastically cool if they could do some or any of the preventative maintenance I mentioned in my last mail.

It's a nice machine and it's a pity whats happened to it, I hope it wont be further corroded away.

[Paddy Duncan]

Hi,

I've done the chuck and the other thing, they are fine now..

Paddy

---

From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Howes

Sent: 17 May 2012 18:42

To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5005 - Release Date: 05/17/12

[Matt Peperell]

*applause* Thank you, Paddy.

[SamLR]

Thanks Paddy!

I also think that the fimo hypothesis should be tested.

It's probably also a good idea to put a big note on the kiln that the PID is not calibrated (I have some notes from my last casting will post to wiki soon, been busy, Sorry!)

S

[Simon Howes]

Thankyou so much sir - this was seriously stresssing me! Especially being stuck in the office and powerless to do anything as it potentially got worse!

A beer is owed to you
Or a bottle of hooch :)

[Paul Dart]

If this gas has had such an impact on the 3-in-1 should we check all
the other kit in the workshop?

There are people who keep 'nice' tools they own in their member boxes
to stop people ruining them. Would be a shame if this has happened.

Cheers,

Paul

[Paddy Duncan]

Based on what I have seen, I reckon stuff in boxes should be fine. Exposed
steel throughout the workshop has been slightly discoloured, and although
the 3 in 1 exposed steel was rusting, I found nothing of the sort inside the
chuck, or in hidden parts under the toolpost etc.. I will still have another
good look around today though.
If anyone is super paranoid about anything and can't make it in, please let
me know and I can have a look..
Paddy

-----Original Message-----
From: london-h...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dart
Sent: 18 May 2012 09:27
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Chemical attack on the 3 in 1

-----

[Benjamin Blundell]

I, for one, am keen on the idea of YouTube videos to show how to look after stuff - a video guide if you will. This was something that was due to be trialed at CSM (I was supposed to build it but didnt on grounds that YouTube did it better). I think that would be a good start now we have a hackspace channel back thanks to Tom.

[Billy]

I don't know about anyone else, but i'm fascinated by the fact it was
Fimo that did this.

No matter how much you know, there's always something new to
learn... :D

[marc - HackTheMedia]

am keen on the idea of YouTube videos to show how to look after stuff - a video guide if you wil 

 

+1 on this, I can film/upload if it helps, 

though we would need to make it clear this vid would be an how to for cleaning/maintenance, and wouldn't replace actual training before using the machine.

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

There was a strong smell of burning plastic/rubber in the workshop on Tues
eve / Weds morning. Investigation showed nothing actively burning although
the exact source was not determined. I assumed that someone had been using
the angle grinder on some inappropriate material or other. It could easily
have been the putty that Simon mentioned. Perhaps the origin of this smell
was the source of the corrosive matter that affected the machine and the
chisels?

Anyone wanna put their hand up to it?


Phil


--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

[Alex Pounds]

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 01:03:25PM +0100, Simon Howes wrote:
> The 3 in 1 is now covered in rust. Completely. Every bit of it looks like
> an old workshop machine. You can see where it stops by turning the
> tailstock screw - shiny metal underneath, brown sludge on top.

One thing that could help with this in the future is creating a cover for
the 3-in-1. Ideally something waterproof (like a tarpaulin) but even if it
was just a cloth, it should (stop|reduce) (moisture|gases) condensing on
exposed metal.

--
Alex Pounds
Web Developer & Photographer

http://alexpounds.com/ | http://ethicsgirls.com/

[Simon Howes]

This isnt such a bad idea. It'd need a big warning label though. Cloth and lathes are the most common and rather nastiest of accidents.

I'm a bit upset at the mailing list that no one suggested an arduino-based solution to the problem yet? Surely there's some bikeshedding to be done on halide/solvent/carbon monoxide sensors? :)

[pad...@padski.co.uk]

Hmm, at least we won't be able to see it rusting ;)

Sent from my thing.

[Alison W]

On 22 May 2012 12:12, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I'm a bit upset at the mailing list that no one suggested an arduino-based
> solution to the problem yet? Surely there's some bikeshedding to be done on
> halide/solvent/carbon monoxide sensors? :)

/me points you at AQE project ;-P

AlisonW

[Simon Howes]

Url or it didnt happen

[Amran]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Url or it didnt happen

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/edborden/air-quality-egg 

[Bob Clough]

 

"How are these things calibrated? The data you are getting seems SUSPECT! How can you prove it is good data?

The sensors will not be calibrated and their precision and sensitivity is mediocre."

Gotta love it!