Re: [london-hack-space] Getting rid of some useless stuff
Elliot West
be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it for the meters.
Martin Dittus
Thanks for the thorough research, this is a great summary!
m.
George Buckenham
I think this CRT is out of the arcade machine. I think that the
related electronics have been scrapped and there is now a monitor
inside
the arcade machine cabinet?
I worry that someone is going to put a boot through this CRT while
looking for the light switches. I gather CRT implosions can be nasty.
Can this be disposed of?
http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/5.jpg
http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/6.jpg
Adrian Godwin
>
>
> I would like to get some not so useful stuff out of the space.
>
> The Hackspace is not a museum. We can't keep stuff just because it's
> interesting,
> it has to be useful (or really awesome).
>
> I propose that the old wooden electrical panel from the motorbike
> factory
> be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it
> for the
> meters.
>
Actually, I think that IS pretty awesome. It could be mounted on the
wall and would take up no useful space at all. Reducing it to just the
meters would be wanton destruction.
-adrian
Dave Durant
The Symbian stuff would quite possibly be picked up by people I know
who worked on early Symbian stuff to go towards a museum of that tech
(I work for Symbian for years). Let me know if you'd like me to ask.
I very much agree about the board with the dials - drill some hopes
and put it on on a wall long before chucking it. Maybe someday someone
will hack it to do something useful :-).
Russ Garrett
> The Symbian stuff would quite possibly be picked up by people I know
> who worked on early Symbian stuff to go towards a museum of that tech
> (I work for Symbian for years). Let me know if you'd like me to ask.
The Symbian stuff is Jenny's and it's on loan. If we're getting rid of
it (which I'm in favour of), she'd like it back.
I agree about the crazy board with the lights on, let's put it on the wall.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Nigel Worsley
time and not being used.
Makerbot?
Nigle
Tim Hutt
> It could be mounted on the
> wall and would take up no useful space at all.
Wall space is very useful and fairly limited.
Elliot West
Tim Storey
Space is a premium to my mind and I would rather see a changing pile of junk/interesting otherwise its too easy for people to use the space as a dumping ground under the innocent guise of re-use
t
Russ Garrett
> I'm trying to build a concensus so lets have more opinions.
> Do people want to fill a space with old stuff and pay to keep it
> forever or throw stuff as people drag more junk in and have
> a constantly changing set of interesting things?
That's a good little false dichotomy you've got going on there. There
are plenty of pieces of wall which aren't suitable for shelving (such
as high up above doors and windows).
I'm one of the most strict people about keeping the hackspace
junk-free, but I don't mind old hardware if it takes up no floor/shelf
space and adds a bit to the atmosphere.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Katie Sutton
It's working and being used right now :o
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Sam Cook
amx109
I propose that the old wooden electrical panel from the motorbike
factory
be thrown in the skip next week unless someone claims it or scraps it
for the
meters.
i think i was talking to Mark about this, and possibly mounting it on the wall near the entrance.
it could scare the pants off you as you enter by lighting up, crackling and spouting zombo.com'isms in the voice of jonty.
please dont chuck it away.
Amran
Ben Blundell
(ONI) and I'll take it apart and take it home whilst throwing out the
remains? Im due down at the space in the next month or so.
Cheers
Ben
--
--
(>) SECTION9 * Benjamin Blundell
(>) b...@section9.co.uk * www.section9.co.uk
(>) Code, Design, Graphic, Web
Jim MacArthur
amx109
The unattainable is unknown..
Amran
Jasper Wallace
> I'v been told that the owner of the symbian developement units does
> not
> want them to be dismantled and thought someone might want to use them.
> That was long before the Nokia windows mobile deal.
>
> The display of small symbian dev hardware unit is getting gouged
> because
> someone dumped a useless old wooden electrical panel on top of it.
> As far as I am aware there is no software or documentation for the
> symbian
> development units and it's unlikely that anyone wants to work on
> symbian.
>
> I propose that unless anyone expresses an interest in these units in
> the
> next few days we get in touch with the owner and ask that they be
> taken away.
I'll have these and can look after them at home if no-one has any
immediate use for them.
--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]
Kieran Kunhya
> Does anyone have a plan for it?
>
> http://ansteckend.org.uk/HST/7.jpg
I use it for IPTV stuff now and then but I don't care if it goes.
Charles Yarnold
Adrian Godwin
Some is, but plenty is hard to use efficiently, and some is used by
temporary installations which were placed purely because nothing else
was there. And decoration is a valid use : I'm sure nobody begrudges
the wallspace used by the robot painting, for instance.
Suggestions as to where it could be mounted are welcome : somewhere
near the alarm panel would be my choice but there may be a better
alternative.
It's important to keep things in proportion, and to prioritise : for
instance, the woodpile is a valuable resource but has a cost. When
that cost becomes too high (if we cannot make room for something we
want) then it should be compared against the cost of buying new
whenever it's needed. Most commercial organisations have gone down
this route and find it cheaper to buy just-in-time than to hold
stocks, but that results in a cost to creativity that's difficult to
quantify.
-adrian
Sam Cook
It's important to keep things in proportion, and to prioritise : for
instance, the woodpile is a valuable resource but has a cost. When
that cost becomes too high (if we cannot make room for something we
want) then it should be compared against the cost of buying new
whenever it's needed. Most commercial organisations have gone down
this route and find it cheaper to buy just-in-time than to hold
stocks, but that results in a cost to creativity that's difficult to
quantify.
Charles Yarnold
Adrian Godwin
>
> First a lot of the utility of the hackspace both as a workshop and a
> learning environment comes from having materials on hand that don't need to
> be paid for because it means you don't have to worry too much if you just
> want to experiment.
>
I agree - that was part of my my 'cost to creativity'.
It's worth considering the costs involved in keeping stocks on hand
vs. buying to order (especially when 'on hand' is usually the result
of a bargain or a gift) but don't underestimate the value of having
what you want ready to experiment at the moment you need it.
Much hacking is, by it's nature, gloriously unplanned.
-adrian
Sci
> On 8 June 2011 14:11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com
> > It could be mounted on the
> > wall and would take up no useful space at all.
>
> Wall space is very useful and fairly limited.
>
>
> I'm pretty sure we can find somewhere to put it
>
> +1 on keeping it.
>
> +1 agreed
+1 only if someone adds a double-pole knife-switch to it that activates
a jacobs ladder.
Optional on the hunchbacked Igor.
~ Sci
amx109
màybe this is what we can use the flash Gordon switch for...
Mike
>
> Secondly we should be careful about relying too much on what's done in
> commercial organisations, they make a good source of information but we're
> not a commercial group so what may work for them won't work for us. E.g.
> using just-in-time ordering works if you have a well set up ordering system
> and a good network of suppliers that lets you do negotiate good deals on the
> promise of repeat custom, that's less useful for us unless we start
> organising (and maintaining) supplier tie ins.
>
If the Space worked like a commerical organisation it would use massive
amounts of time and resouces to produce absolutely nothing. Hans
Christian Andersen famously wrote a book about how the commercial world
works, called The Emperor's New Clothes.
The other draw back to the JiT approach is that it relies on having a
set product to build. You know exactly the components required and how
long it takes to build, so you know exactly when everything has to turn
up. Another advantage for JiT in industry is that the components
ordered are required for the product. Having a bucket of screws on the
shop floor means that 90% of them get used fixing the kids' gokart.
>
> Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
> point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> just not sure how.
>
This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
real estate. Maybe we could explore our options. Here's a few off the
cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
necessarilly take any of them too seriously):
* Hire another unit. A stores doesn't necessarily need to be adjacent
to the Space.
* Start a campagin of anti-social behaviour/intimidation towards to
adjacent units until they are vacant
* Hire a Big Yellow unit
* Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)
* Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre
Mike.
Bob Clough
* Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)
Billy
> > point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> > just not sure how.
>
> This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
>
> It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
> real estate. Maybe we could explore our options. Here's a few off the
> cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
> necessarilly take any of them too seriously):
>
> * Hire another unit. A stores doesn't necessarily need to be adjacent
> to the Space.
for a way of moving the stuff when it's needed, and a way of asorting
out the arguments when people say, "We need this here", "No! We need
THAT stuff!", yadda, yadda, yadda...
> * Start a campagin of anti-social behaviour/intimidation towards to
> adjacent units until they are vacant
term studio spaces. They are also worth talking to, the people in Unit
25 do a lot of CGI work, and are always looking for free-lancers...
> * Hire a Big Yellow unit
> * Hire a large warehouse up North (another idea borrowed from industry)
current site, though the location of Units 24 & 24 are great, as far
as centrality, and easy-to-get-to-ish-ness. It'll work when helping
other people to set up hackspaces in other locations.
> * Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre
strong as a cheap corrugated plastic roof. You need duckboards to walk
on it.
But if we stick a single-size shipping container in one of the car-
parking spaces we have, it would work.
Permanently attach a parking permit and it won't get towed. Bolt it
down to the ground, so it doesn't get stolen.
Get more than one, and we could start stacking them up, though we'll
need to weld some stairs to side....
Tim Hutt
We make stickers that have maybe 3 weeks worth of day check boxes
(i.e. M,T,W,T,F,S,S,M,T,W,T,F,S,S....). When you bring something to
the space put a sticker on it. Then anyone can cross the current day
off. When the days run out the item gets thrown, and I don't think it
should require discussion (unless it is obviously a really nice
thing). If something doesn't have a sticker on it, you can add one.
This way you don't have to work out dates, and can't leave the project
finish date blank or unrealistically far in the future and we can
guarantee that random crap like the toy piano (really?), the traffic
lights, bike frames and wheels, and the accurately named "Box O'
Broken Shit" are removed.
Just a suggestion.
By the way, for throwing stuff out does it all go in the skip, or is
there some other system for electronics, scrap metal and so on?
Tim
Robert Leverington
> > Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
> > point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
> > just not sure how.
> >
>
> This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
I think that if we are getting to the point where we need to get another
unit purely for storage then we should seriously consider what we are
keeping in the space. At the moment I would say that what we have looks
a lot more than it actually it is.
Right now we keep:
- members boxes, these need to stay in the space;
- scrap wood, I think this pile is too big, but it's virtually all
replaceable fairly easily and should be reduced if we need the space;
- tubs containing tools, needs to stay in the space;
- tubs containing useful parts, there isn't a lot of this.
Have I missed anything? A lot of the random stuff lying about is stuff
that we should get rid of.
Right now we are in no position to take on a further commitment of
space, and I'm not convinced the storage business is something we want
to get in to.
I do not think Workspace Group will allow us to put a storage container
in one of our car parking spaces, nor is this a good use of one of our
spaces.
Robert
Sci
>>> Also I think we should try and do a major tidy/clear of unit 23 at some
>>> point soon because it can be much better organised than it is currently; I'm
>>> just not sure how.
>>
>> This is agreed. Unit 23 is currently a shithole. It's slightly akward
>> in that it's currently functioning as both a workshop and a stores, with
>> the latter starting to win out in the battle for space.
>>
>> It's obvisouly a ball ache holding stores in London, given the cost of
>> real estate. Maybe we could explore our options. Here's a few off the
>> cuff, radical, ramblings to throw into the melting pot (don't
>> necessarilly take any of them too seriously):
>> * Smuggle a shipping container onto the roof of the Business Centre
>
> Sadly, the roof won't hold it. I had a look up there, and it's only as
> strong as a cheap corrugated plastic roof. You need duckboards to walk
> on it.
>
> But if we stick a single-size shipping container in one of the car-
> parking spaces we have, it would work.
>
> Permanently attach a parking permit and it won't get towed. Bolt it
> down to the ground, so it doesn't get stolen.
If this is a permitted use for the parking spaces, it's a possibility.
However is it worthwhile? What manner of things would be stored there?
Remember the car park is two stories down. If it's equipment stored in
it, then it's equipment being used exceptionally rarely and will be very
frustrating to get to readily. Same for anything considered too big for
the space. If it's being used so rarely and getting in the way so much
it has to be stored outside of the space, why are we keeping it at all?
Likewise using a container for peoples project storage we run into the
same troubles; it's not very convenient. And also if it's frequently
accessed it draws attention to it and exponentially increases the odds
or a security snafu such as forgetting to replace keys, not locking it
up properly, etc..
A shipping container is also not as environmentally stable. It will get
very hot or cold in each season and it will not be moisture-proof
without a lot of careful refurbishment. (any 20ft container bought for
less than ~�1000 is going to have holes rusted in the top and/or dents
that compromise seals). Wood will warp, electronics will get too humid,
bar stock will rust.
It would be a big and expensive project to install for negligible return. :/
I would like a shipping container as a quasi-portable workshop of my own
at some point in the future, so I appreciate how useful they can be as
prefab buildings, but installing one as a storage unit simply because
we're incapable of keeping the existing area tidy is not a solution.
Yes we have some useless stuff around, and we have a lot of apparently
seldom-touched projects taking up floor space. However we are also not
using the existing space very well yet IMO.
For example we've still got, what? Two feet or more of space between the
top of the member boxes on the shelves and the ceiling? At first blush
I'm inclined to suggest something like classic library shelves with a
ladder on rails, but all we really need is a set of steps and members
not silly enough to put heavy boxes up top.
By taking advantage of the vertical space we could probably halve the
floorspace used by the shelves. Same for most of the other storage racks.
Use the vertical space first!
I'm quite happy to knock up a set of portable stairs to assist in this.
For bigger stuff we just need to keep an eye out for some warehouse
pallet rack. The sort of slot-together stuff that can take a tonne on
each shelf. While large it would allow stacking of the larger/heavier
more awkward minority of project items that can obstruct floor space.
Most are 2.5 to 2.7m long, but their load bearing capacity could mean
the wood store could go on the top shelf in it's entirety and bulky
projects underneath.
There's several on ebay atm, under �100. I'm sure they can be found
cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
years ago.
~ Sci
Sci
> cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
> when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
> years ago.
>
> ~ Sci
>
EG: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/320710583821
�80, no bids, 4days to go, collect from Colchester.
Sci
On 09/06/2011 09:27, amx109 wrote:
> m�ybe this is what we can use the flash Gordon switch for...
>
> On Jun 9, 2011 2:24 AM, "Sci" <s...@sci-fi-fox.com
> <mailto:s...@sci-fi-fox.com>> wrote:
>> On 08/06/2011 16:26, Charles Yarnold wrote:
>>> On 8 June 2011 14:11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sam.lind...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 June 2011 14:03, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com
> <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com <mailto:tdh...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8 June 2011 13:02, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:artg...@gmail.com>
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
Sounds very complicated compared to a "do hack" sticker with a clearly
marked expiry date not to exceed 3 weeks.
Toy Piano...
There was a mailing list post about this....
//////////////////////////////////////////////
It works, is playable, has a few instruments, the keys light up when
pressed, the notes are displayed accurately on an LCD display as you
play, and there's accent lights. There's also a mic jack (cheap jack,
poor connection) and a foot pedal jack.
It's a nice little toy, and could actually help someone learn piano. But
I have no use for it. That it auto-displays sheet music and has light-up
keys, I'm sure someone else can make use of it.
~ Sci
////////////////////////////////////////////////
So not just a toy, but something that "might" interest someone who feels a
bit of hacking coming on. Which I believe is the general purpose of the 3
week box. A suitable label would deal with this.
Traffic lights...
These are someones project, (forget who, but I nearly "stole" his holdall
that had been lying around so long that it ended up in the three week
bin!) luckily I was in the space when he was enquiring about it. Perhaps
he will make himself known.
Throwing stuff out...
Rubbish generally just goes in the skip, a certain amount of stuff (beer
vessels, soop tins, plastic food containers, cardboard etc.) is recycled
via the local authority collection bins, but we have no specific system
for other scrap. It would be nice to be able to save it until there is
enough to take to a scrapyard. The main problem is that segregated storage
of the different scrap materials is bulky and difficult to manage in an
environment where sweeping the floor is beyond the capability of many
users. Transport is also an issue, as a saleable quantity of scrap is a
bit of a challenge on a pushbike.
Something that would definitely be worthwhile is a "gold scrap" box for
old circuit boards, connectors, semiconductors etc. that contain precious
metals. I was involved in this kind of recycling a while ago, and the
yield from even a relatively small quantity of these items is surprisingly
high.
Phil
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Adrian Godwin
>
> For bigger stuff we just need to keep an eye out for some warehouse
> pallet rack. The sort of slot-together stuff that can take a tonne on
> each shelf. While large it would allow stacking of the larger/heavier
> more awkward minority of project items that can obstruct floor space.
>
> Most are 2.5 to 2.7m long, but their load bearing capacity could mean
> the wood store could go on the top shelf in it's entirety and bulky
> projects underneath.
>
> There's several on ebay atm, under £100. I'm sure they can be found
> cheaply elsewhere too. I may even be able to get some for free locally
> when the local branch of Focus closes. I've had some from there before,
> years ago.
>
There's regularly good quality racking at the auction place I keep an
eye on. It can probably be obtained for the same price as the
lightweight racking we've used for members boxes. However, it's no
good talking about it when it comes up - you have to be ready to go,
and looking for the right sort of bargain.
Give me a budget, a requirement spec and an urgency spec and I'll keep
an eye out for a bargain. The industrial tool sale coming up on June
16th is one possibility, though I don't recall seeing a lot of racking
there.
-adrian
Sci
Spec will mean some measuring in the space. While we could chop
something too-tall down a bit, we should get ceiling height and the rest
worked out.
The large wide shelves would be perfect for the sheet materials if we
can get one with lots of close together shelves. Wood, metal and plastics.
Long timbers and poles should also be able to store on such shelves as
it's not going in a corner and they can be slid-out the ends of the
shelf rather than digging back for them from the front.
Working from memory & the hackspace webcam feed (btw, thanks to whoever
put the anti-glare cowl on the camera), I think a 2.7-3m wide rack with
the first shelf about 3ft up could fit all the obstructive items in the
middle of the room stored under it, no problem.
That shelf (#1) could hold the metal stock at one end and scrap lengths
at the other.
Wood sheets above that (#2). Wood lengths above that (#3). Then sheet
plastics and plastic scraps/bars (plastics being found in smaller sizes
than wood, assuming just one shelf, so #4), laser-only plastics & woods
above that along with any other specialised materials that don't want to
be used for generalised hacking (#5).
For the span, the shelf members will likely be quite thick, so probably
wouldn't be able to fit more than 5 shelves anyway with the fairly
raised first shelf to allow floor-storage.
I doodled the layout quickly in SAI. :P
http://www.sci-fi-fox.com/offsitelinked/hackspace%20shelves%20doodle.jpg
So preliminary spec I'd say 2.7-3m span, meter or so deep, each shelf
being able to take 300Kg for safety. Ideally with bolt-down feet (though
we could bolt/weld brackets ourselves) and a common enough standard that
we can acquire more parts if necessary, as well as made in such a way
that the ends of the shelves can be accessed, not just the front edge.
That sound ok so far? (remember, this is without actual dimensions of
the space to hand)
As far as budget goes, I don't know. A pledge doesn't really work if we
don't have a set figure. This seems to be more of a whip-round sort of
thing. Ballpark, if the current spec is okay, I reckon we could get it
all for �70-80, though we'd still have to arrange collection.
I don't think there's a massive rush for it all, but with how impatient
some are getting with the state of 23, sooner the better.
Let's get the measurements and firm up the spec a little more first.
Moving that amount of racking & materials around is something I only
want to do once, so let's get it right first time.
While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something just
a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.
~ Sci
Adrian Godwin
On 6/10/11, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
>
> -- good stuff snipped --
>
>
> As far as budget goes, I don't know. A pledge doesn't really work if we
> don't have a set figure. This seems to be more of a whip-round sort of
> thing. Ballpark, if the current spec is okay, I reckon we could get it
> all for £70-80, though we'd still have to arrange collection.
>
It's infrastructure rather than project, so ideally should come out of
hackspace funds. But I appreciate there aren't many of those right
now. The knitting machine has a similar pledge - it's a pot to be
available for the right auction. We'd just need to specify how to deal
with overpledges (eg by taking less than was offered, or using the
extra for something else) and dealing with the need to pay out on
short notice. I'd happily put £20 in a pot.
> I don't think there's a massive rush for it all, but with how impatient
> some are getting with the state of 23, sooner the better.
I only ask because what you pay depends on how long you wait : take
some time and you're more likely to find a bargain or something with
easy shipping. In the meantime, watch some auctions to get a better
idea of what stuff goes : then you can recognise a bargain when you
see something that meets the spec.
>
> While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
> also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
> described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
> and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
> looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
> the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something just
> a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.
>
Maybe we could do a smaller rack as a trial run ? Less to invest, less
to transport, less to build ?
-adrian
Billy
Surely we could build a rack out of the timber?
Adrian Godwin
metal rack tends to have more spce in it - the rails are narrower).
I thought it was mostly chunks of plywood and hardwood, we'd need some
long spars.
-adrian
tom
they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!
Nigel Worsley
> they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!
Have you considered buying a stand instead? These would do the job:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/heavy-duty-loudspeaker-stand-3408
http://www.studiospares.com/stands-speaker/studiospares-airpump-speaker-stand/invt/448820/
Nigle
Russ Garrett
> Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
> they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!
Hang them on a wall?
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Sam Cook
At the moment I would say that what we have looks a lot more than it actually it is.
Right now we keep:
- members boxes, these need to stay in the space;
- scrap wood, I think this pile is too big, but it's virtually all
replaceable fairly easily and should be reduced if we need the space;
- tubs containing tools, needs to stay in the space;
- tubs containing useful parts, there isn't a lot of this.
Have I missed anything? A lot of the random stuff lying about is stuff
that we should get rid of.
Right now we are in no position to take on a further commitment of
space, and I'm not convinced the storage business is something we want
to get in to.
Adrian Godwin
> I would disagree with this, the pile needs regular check throughs (and is
> probably due another) to get rid of crap small bits but I think there is a
> good amount of wood that you would struggle to just pick up (without paying
> for). One thing that it may benefit from is being pushed back again and a
> it's enclosure strengthening.
Yes, this is key : one day, we may need that space more than the wood.
But at present it's potentially more useful than untidy desks and
things that aren't put away : as Robert says, there's really quite a
lot of space if it's kept tidy. And quite a lot of it is hardwood and
thick, solid plywood, this is REALLY expensive. There's very little
actual crap in that pile. The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not
> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
> worthless to work on.
Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper. So I think it needs to be reconsidered from time to time but
does have it's place if it can be kept. Eating pizza is actually more
important than it appears (no, really!) - it's not that there isn't
anywhere else for it, but putting all the greasy stuff in a single
place and cleaning it up afterwards actually saves an awful lot of
cleaning up everywhere else.
imho, of couse.
-adrian.
Sam Cook
The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's notTricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
> worthless to work on.
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper.
Philippe Bradley
Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
paper.I hadn't thought of that, only the pizza use which we've managed before with ladders etc (not idea but it does work). I just wonder if it could be flat packed or similar or whether it might be worth making a trestle system to allow us to have the same functionality but taking up less space...
Tim Hutt
> thick, solid plywood, this is REALLY expensive. There's very little
> actual crap in that pile. The laser offcuts are probably a lot worse.
Agreed; there's some really nice wood in the pile.
>> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not
>> sturdy enough to work on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it
>> worthless to work on.
>
> Tricky, that : it's very lightweight and high, so not a lot of use to
> work on. But there are some jobs that demand a big table and not much
> strength. Two that come to mind are eating pizza and cutting fabric or
> paper.
These seem like pretty thin justifications for keeping it. There are
lots of other tables to eat pizza from...
Kathryn Rose
repair that I want to hack, though I think they might be rather
delicate to start with. But if there are two lots of welding equipment
then perhaps getting rid of one set is sensible.
Kathryn
Adrian Godwin
welder. They're useful for different sorts of jobs.
Neither will do brass very well - for that, you need to hard-solder,
which actually requires simpler equipment (no need for shields or
masks) and though you can make a mess, you're rather less likely to
ruin the fabric of the work than you might with a welder (because
you're adding a filler metal rather than melting the base).
I could probably manage to show you after a bit of practice, though I
suspect Errant's interest in jewellry means she's more skilled at it.
-adrian
Simon Howes
For brass instruments you'd really want to use brazing - much more delicate and suited to the task then a big dirty mig welder. You dont need screens for this.
Elliot West
Traffic lights are mine and have a "do not hack" sticker on them,
they'll be moved once I can work out how to build stand for them!
Sci
shelving setup where we can still easily adjust the shelf heights and
take the weight of a person or more in the middle of a 3m span.
We will need wood though as the cheaper shelving sets don't seem to come
with shelve surfaces, only supports. Bog standard chipboard should be
fine for that tho.
Sci
It sounds like you're describing a paste-table. The sort of folding
ultra lightweight CHEAP table used for putting up wallpaper. If all it's
doing is holding occasional buffet food, one would be fine.
~ Sci
Sam Cook
It sounds like you're describing a paste-table. The sort of folding
ultra lightweight CHEAP table used for putting up wallpaper.
Adrian Godwin
like mine without floorsweeping garnish. But one or more folding
tables is a good idea - if we can find some strong ones they'd not
take up much space and would be very handy for busy workshops etc.
-adrian
On 6/10/11, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
Alex Pounds
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.
The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.
--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^
Sam Cook
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09:39AM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.
Sam Kelly
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:09:39AM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:The draftsman's table is pretty awesome; it broke my heart to see that
> The draftsman's table is frankly useless; it's not sturdy enough to work
> on and the fact it has a pivoting top makes it worthless to work on.
we'd managed to rip the corner off it within a week of its arrival. (And
warmed my heart to see someone patched it up.) I've used it a few time for
measuring/marking/trimming large bits of card & plastic, and I've seen
other people use it when they needed a standing-level desk in the dirty
room for something light (eg. laptops, misc. pieces from projects,
lasers). I'd be sad if we threw it away.
I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and b) the whole thing folds up for storage.
The fact that it's too flimsy to do heavy work on is actually a plus from my point of view, because it means that it gets less scarred and battered, preserving the surface for paper/card/etc. work, and doesn't get cluttered with heavy equipment the way the other surfaces in here do.
Keep.
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/
That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
Alex Pounds
> I would still argue that we can get something to replace the draftsman's
> table which can be packed away more easily because other than light things
> it's not that useful and does take up a fairly large area (maybe we can cut
> it's legs off and hinge them so that it can be folded away?
I think – though I'm not sure – that it folds up pretty much like a picnic
table, so it can be stored vertically when not in use.
Sam Kelly
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:The draftsman's table is pretty awesome;
I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and b) the whole thing folds up for storage.
Addendum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravenmagic/5817921823/ shows it folded up. It takes only slightly more space than a wallpaper table, it's more rigid, and it's really good to have a higher-level option than the others.
Sam Cook
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:The draftsman's table is pretty awesome;
I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and b) the whole thing folds up for storage.
Addendum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravenmagic/5817921823/ shows it folded up. It takes only slightly more space than a wallpaper table, it's more rigid, and it's really good to have a higher-level option than the others.
Robert Leverington
> On 10 June 2011 16:19, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Alex Pounds <al...@alexpounds.com> wrote:
> >>> The draftsman's table is pretty awesome;
> >>
> >> I agree, and I also want to point out that a) the pivoting top locks, and
> >> b) the whole thing folds up for storage.
> >
> > Addendum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravenmagic/5817921823/ shows it
> > folded up. It takes only slightly more space than a wallpaper table, it's
> > more rigid, and it's really good to have a higher-level option than the
> > others.
>
> Ah awesome: in that case as a general request: can we keep the bloody thing
> folded up and out of the way? perhaps leant against the vending machine or
> at the far end of the quiet room? This will also help keep the surface in a
Please can we not store things in the quiet room permanently, it is
very useful to be able to rearrange that room and it is also fairly
small.
Robert
Sam Kelly
Tim Hutt
> It seems people have come up with uses for the draftsman's table so I guess
> it's not useless but I would still say that we don't need the large number
> of tables that we do have in unit 23.
I agree, but I also think having an occasional use for something isn't
a sufficient reason to keep it - it has to be more useful than the
space it was taking up.
Adrian Godwin
>
> Please can we not store things in the quiet room permanently, it is
> very useful to be able to rearrange that room and it is also fairly
> small.
>
> Robert
>
On that note : what's happening with the projector screen ?
We had a fairly decent one mounted over the window. It's disappeared.
We have a fantastic one lying under a desk. It's lying under a desk.
On the nanode weekend, a screen on a stand was used, making the end
desks unusable.
Is there something other than a round tuit keeping this from being
installed neatly ? If not, I'm available this weekend to help put one
up (if that's compatible with the other activities in the space).
-adrian
Adrian Godwin
> in there. I'd rather have a large stable table that can be used for light
> things and heavy things rather than the current situation which is that if
> you want to do anything that requires a stable surface you have one crowded
> option and several heavily sub-par ones. eg a while ago I was helping a
> friend cut some chain and we ended up using the ex bench saw table and
> holding the vice by hand - this was not optimal when using a hacksaw.
>
At one point the only available bench was the woodworking one. I guess
people have contributed what they found in order to help things along.
But we probably need a cull of the poorer ones, and as you rightly
say, we still haven't got a really substantial one for heavy work.
Maybe this would be something more practical to make from the woodpile
? Some of that thick ply that's been used in the kitchen and the 6"
square legs would make a pretty heavy bench, supplemented with some
bought timber if necessary to make real solid item.
-adrian
Robert Leverington
> Is there something other than a round tuit keeping this from being
> installed neatly ? If not, I'm available this weekend to help put one
> up (if that's compatible with the other activities in the space).
My understanding is that the new one needs to be mounted to the
ceiling, and due to its weight special epoxy fittings need to be
purchased.
This weekend is the Gamejame (Saturday and Sunday) and the monthly
lockpicking session (Saturday only), I suspect the space is going to be
very busy.
Robert
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
have made a rough prototype that directly replaces a ceiling tile, next
time I am in I shall finish the bracketery and fit it for a trial run...
If successful I shall make a prettier one in due course.
Phil
On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 17:27:18 +0100, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Adrian Godwin
> ceiling, and due to its weight special epoxy fittings need to be
> purchased.
Bolts alone, or brackets too ? Do we have measurements yet ?
>
> This weekend is the Gamejame (Saturday and Sunday) and the monthly
> lockpicking session (Saturday only), I suspect the space is going to be
> very busy.
ok.
-adrian
Sam Cook
Maybe this would be something more practical to make from the woodpile
? Some of that thick ply that's been used in the kitchen and the 6"
square legs would make a pretty heavy bench, supplemented with some
bought timber if necessary to make real solid item.
Sci
> cc'd to the infrastructure list in an effort to move it there ..
>
>>
>>
>> As far as budget goes, I don't know. A pledge doesn't really work if we
>> don't have a set figure. This seems to be more of a whip-round sort of
>> thing. Ballpark, if the current spec is okay, I reckon we could get it
>> all for �70-80, though we'd still have to arrange collection.
>>
>
> It's infrastructure rather than project, so ideally should come out of
> hackspace funds. But I appreciate there aren't many of those right
> now. The knitting machine has a similar pledge - it's a pot to be
> available for the right auction. We'd just need to specify how to deal
> with overpledges (eg by taking less than was offered, or using the
> extra for something else) and dealing with the need to pay out on
> short notice. I'd happily put �20 in a pot.
I'm pretty skint, but I'm sure I can dig up at least a tenner. Maybe
more if my trip to the scrap dealer pays out more than I'm expecting.
>> I don't think there's a massive rush for it all, but with how impatient
>> some are getting with the state of 23, sooner the better.
>
> I only ask because what you pay depends on how long you wait : take
> some time and you're more likely to find a bargain or something with
> easy shipping. In the meantime, watch some auctions to get a better
> idea of what stuff goes : then you can recognise a bargain when you
> see something that meets the spec.
Popped into the space earlier and did a little measuring.
Unit 23 ceiling height is 2.7meters, the current wood-store is 1.2m deep
and the distance between the "pillars" that protrude from the wall
either side is about 3.75m.
Assuming shelf supports 10cm thick (that'd be very heavy duty grade
supports, a lot moreso than needed) and 90cm space underneath (approx
table height) the bottom one, that should give 5 shelves each with 26cm
of height. 25cm if we have to put some chipboard surfaces down. Not
cavernous, but fine for flat items & stock materials. Just keep the
scraps boxes at one end for the tiny bits that'll otherwise migrate to
the very back of such shelves.
So, 3m wide shelves should slot in fine with enough left over for scraps
boxes.
>> While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
>> also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
>> described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
>> and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
>> looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
>> the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something just
>> a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.
>>
>
> Maybe we could do a smaller rack as a trial run ? Less to invest, less
> to transport, less to build ?
Good idea. A wooden set of shelves as suggested by Billy would probably
be fine here.
~ Sci
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
Wood pile shelves...
This is a really poor idea. Shelves of this nature are very wasteful of
space, very inflexible and only work with large, regularly shaped sheets
or lengths of similar materials on each shelf. Been there, seen it, done
it, scrapped it.
A large shelf for large projects might be a better idea but difficult to
arrange given the varying dimensions of these things.
Vertical storage is the only way to deal with irregularly shaped/sized
sheets or varying lengths/sections of material. There is potential for
improvement
of the existing racks, particularly making the divisions narrower and
perhaps reducing further the stock. Whatever happens, the stock needs to
be pruned regularly and a limit placed on the amount stored. This happens
on an informal basis whenever someone gets irritated enough with the state
of things.
What is wanted from those members who do not involve themselves in
maintaining the stockpile is a disciplined approach to the amount of stock
brought in and a disciplined approach to the use of what is there. As has
been said before,
WHEN THE PILE IS FULL WE DO NOT NEED ANY MORE. WHEN REPLACING MATERIALS IN
THE RACK PLACE THEM WHERE THEY CAME FROM. It ain`t difficult.
Three week boxes/useful stuff shelves...
Agreed, these are less than ideal. Suggest that shelves similar to the
ones for members boxes be installed along the windows (there was talk of
putting desks here but that seems to be a non starter) These would hold
all the goodies (and more) currently held by the various ramshackle
shelves that are spread around the space. The space where the three week
shelves are now could be used to put up a metal wall rack for the blue
plastic bins. (Similar to the one in 24.) The three week bins could be
placed on the floor under the blue bins. This combined with stickers for
larger three week items would reduce the general clutter considerably.
Again, the general rule should be that when a container is full the stock
in that container should be reviewed and the less worthy bits disposed of.
This also happens on an informal basis, perhaps it should be made explicit
that "anyone" can do this without having to ask the entire membership and
wait three months for a consensus to form. There will be exceptions to
this but commonsense should prevail....
Phil
> Assuming shelf supports 10cm thick (that'd be very heavy duty grade
> supports, a lot moreso than needed) and 90cm space underneath (approx
> table height) the bottom one, that should give 5 shelves each with 26cm
> of height. 25cm if we have to put some chipboard surfaces down. Not
> cavernous, but fine for flat items & stock materials. Just keep the
> scraps boxes at one end for the tiny bits that'll otherwise migrate to
> the very back of such shelves.
> So, 3m wide shelves should slot in fine with enough left over for scraps
> boxes.
>
>>> While a separate issue, the shelves where the 3-week boxes are could
>>> also do with changing. They don't need to be as large as the ones
>>> described above, but the ones that are currently there get used a lot
>>> and are only centre-supported shelves. They wobble a lot. If we're
>>> looking for shelving some medium-duty shelving to cover the wall from
>>> the doorway up to the multi-machine might be a good idea. Something
>>> just
>>> a bit more rigid than what's used for the member-box shelves.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe we could do a smaller rack as a trial run ? Less to invest, less
>> to transport, less to build ?
>
> Good idea. A wooden set of shelves as suggested by Billy would probably
> be fine here.
>
> ~ Sci
Adrian Godwin
>
> Popped into the space earlier and did a little measuring.
> Unit 23 ceiling height is 2.7meters, the current wood-store is 1.2m deep
> and the distance between the "pillars" that protrude from the wall
> either side is about 3.75m.
>
Here are some rather heavy duty shelves.They're the sort of think used
for mechandise in DIY sheds. They _may_ be too heavy, though I
suspect we could easily benefit from them. However there are 4 lots
available and it's a machinery-specific auction so I doubt they'll go
really cheap (perhaps a lot cheaper than new, but still ..) and
transport would be a significant extra cost.
I think I'd suggest watching to see what they go for as a bit of
research, and consider how the price compares with what we've been
buying for member's shelves.
There are other items of possible interest in that sale too, though
not as much as previous ones. There are a couple of machine vices that
would be worth considering. The power hacksaw is unfortunately too
large.
-adrian
asc
> > in there. I'd rather have a large stable table that can be used for light
> > things and heavy things rather than the current situation which is that if
> > you want to do anything that requires a stable surface you have one crowded
> > option and several heavily sub-par ones. eg a while ago I was helping a
> > friend cut some chain and we ended up using the ex bench saw table and
> > holding the vice by hand - this was not optimal when using a hacksaw.
>
> At one point the only available bench was the woodworking one. I guess
> people have contributed what they found in order to help things along.
> But we probably need a cull of the poorer ones, and as you rightly
> say, we still haven't got a really substantial one for heavy work.
up using the draftsmans table. The problem is people dump junk on the
tables and treat them as storage thus negating their purpose and
requiring more tables.
I tended to think we needed a larger wooden bench until I realised
that this was experiencing the exact same problem. People just leave
their rubbish and junk on there for days sometimes. The issue is that
people cannot tell what is rubbish or junk without having to wait a
couple days to see if it has been moved. I have been too polite to
simply bin it all (bar the obvious good stuff).
http://bit.ly/iLYKF2
What's the white cubboard at the back doing?
The table near the laser cutter is full of junk (I've cleaned it the
last few times I have been in there, someone likes refilling it)
The wooden bench, some kind person has left the saw there since at
least yesterday.
Mystery Prize to whomever can name the good sir in the background.
This dumping ground makes it difficult to walk in and out of 23
sometimes when there are only a few people working (Sunday afternoon
anyone?).
I look forward to the clean up day - I will be merciless, fear me! :)
Adrian Godwin
> http://bit.ly/iLYKF2
>
> What's the white cubboard at the back doing?
I haven't looked in it for a while, so perhaps it's got a new purpose.
However, it used to be the only storage in the workshop, and contained
small tools and the pcb etching stuff.
It was originally placed near the sink but moved 'temporarily' when
the etch sink was installed.
If there are any nasty chemicals in it, they could be moved to the
sink cupboard or the etch cupboard, which has plenty of room. But
don't put metal stuff in the etch cupboard in case there are any
corrosive leaks.
The cupboard itself could perhaps be placed against one of walls by
removing a rickety rack or displacing a pile of rubbish to its top.
Might make a useful place for 3in1 tooling which currently seems to
occupy a table.
-adrian
Jonty Wareing
> At one point the only available bench was the woodworking one. I guess
> people have contributed what they found in order to help things along.
> But we probably need a cull of the poorer ones
This is exactly the case, although I think it might be worth putting
some thought into what kind of workbenches we actually want in Unit 23
and building/acquiring them, otherwise other "helpful" tables will soon
sprout up.
Personally I'd like to see two large benches in there, in the middle,
with no other desks around the place, potentially with suitable stools
available. It's also possible that we might want to keep the existing
woodwork bench off to one side. Discuss.
--jonty
Jonty Wareing
> Three week boxes/useful stuff shelves...
> The three week bins could be placed on the floor under the blue bins.
This is how the three week boxes used to work, they were on the floor so
they could accommodate larger items and were generally more visible. At
some point they were assimilated into the storage shelves.
I'd like to propose that the boxes are moved off the shelves and into a
much more visible place - right now people are rarely rooting through
them and rescuing the good bits. At the same time, people are putting
_utter crap_ in them, like bits of cardboard, so visibility should fix
that too.
--jonty