Small sound proofed room as craft room

[Clare Greenhalgh]

Hi guys

I think it would be great to make the small room on the ground floor the craft room. 

DO NOT worry music hackspace, crafts include music! We need to be sure that this is the best way to have somewhere we can use other skills (sewing, knitting, engraving, music) where we can keep things in locked in access control protected cupboards so it really is only for people who know how to use these things.

We need somewhere we can work (or at least keep the equipment to work with).

Now the ideas start flowing in!

Mother Dragon aka Nokomis

[Sam Kelly]

That sounds like an excellent idea.

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[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Why not just have the craft in a part of hte main floor? This gives a much greater and more modular work space (plenty of desks). The small room would only really have space for 3 or 4 people working crafts, less if some are sewing large items or making sculptures, there is also the question of dust/lint/crap getting into the networking equipment.

I also don't see which craft tools would need access control, maybe a sewing machine, but you could probably fashion a lock for the cover quite easily, all others could be kept in personal toolboxes if they're really that important.

(This is coming from someone whos beek crafting for 10 years)

[Paddy Duncan]

...regarding the access-controlled storage; I was hoping for more replies to my request for the same for nice things, especially from those who I spoke to in person and promised to!

Come on peeps.

Paddy

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[Clare Greenhalgh]

The tools are far more than "maybe a sewing machine"! The knitting machine, two sewing machines at the space at the moment, a possible engraving machine and that is just to start with. If we have the space (which we do) then I think it is important to have somewhere to keep not only the machines, but also materials (including threads and wool) people are happy to donate to others who want to use it for projects. 

These are not things we want everyone to be able to use, and that would be why there is access control for the cupboard doors.

If you just "fashion a lock for the cover" of a machine then the keys need to be somewhere, giving easy access to everyone.

MotherDragon

[Martin (Crypt)]

I think having the small room for a crafts is a good idea, but I think it may be excessive to lock stuff away.  We already have a lot of tools and equipment that is far more dangerous/expensive than the sewing machine or engraver.

Instead of locking them away, can we have a storage unit with big instructions on how to use it.  Engravers aren't that difficult to use, and instructions can be easily put on sheet of A4 next to it, The sewing machine may be more difficult, but I don't think locking those machines away is more important than locking away access to the 3-in-1 or laser cutter, and could be covered with the ACNode system we're building.

I like to always tend towards giving as much access to tools to people as possible, lets people do implement a cool idea they think of on the spur of the moment

[Kimball Johnson]

Access control doesn't stop equipment being used.  If will keep it members only however, which means it's being kept for use by peopel that have shown a commitment to the space and are thus more likely to treat it with respect.  AFAIK sewing machines have been broken in the past, and I know that the kitting machine has had to be put away neatly by people that had not been using it in the past.

It's not about protecting the people, it's about protecting the delicate machines.

They may not be all that expensive (although some could be) but they are much easier to break that other equipment so the constant replacement would be expensive.

Kimball

[Charles Yarnold]

This isn't true, simply being a member doesn't grant you access rights to all acnode devices, were this the case it would negate needing any training to use the 3-in-1 or lasercutter.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think it is important to keep these machines locked away, as otherwise people abuse them, and then someone either has to repair the machine or spend about half an hour restructuring it before starting on a project. If we do not lock these things away then I think there will be far less of a chance people bring their own machinery in for other people to use (who have been trained too). 

The ACNode will work for it, but it is all of the other bits (thread, material, wool, buttons etc) that also need to be secure, It is not that I do not want people to have access, but makes sure that the people who do have access have been trained to use the machinery they have access to! 

We need to train people to use this equipment, just as people need to be trained to use the lasercutter. It may not be as expensive, but if it belongs to a member and is on loan then it is just as valuable!

On 30 April 2013 13:46, Kimball Johnson <kim...@bowerham.net> wrote:

[Kimball Johnson]

It can do though, there is no reason why a node can be for all members without training.

Kimball

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I was under the impression the access-control setup wasn't primarily to
make tools members-only but to prevent certain tools from being used by
those that *hadn't been trained to use them*, and thus reduce the risk
of untrained hands wrecking equipment.

[William Hay]

On 30 April 2013 14:02, Clare Greenhalgh <claregr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think it is important to keep these machines locked away, as otherwise people abuse them, and then someone either has to repair the machine or spend about half an hour restructuring it before starting on a project. If we do not lock these things away then I think there will be far less of a chance people bring their own machinery in for other people to use (who have been trained too). 

The ACNode will work for it, but it is all of the other bits (thread, material, wool, buttons etc) that also need to be secure, It is not that I do not want people to have access, but makes sure that the people who do have access have been trained to use the machinery they have access to! 

Why do thread, buttons etc need to be secure if the machines already are secure?  How much training is needed before you use an ordinary sewing or knitting needle with them?

 

 

[Clare Greenhalgh]

Because I don't want people using them for other purposes. I was planning on bringing extra stuff of my own, but if it is not restricted for craft use I will keep it here.

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[Martin (Crypt)]

If you want to keep materials just for yourself then you should put them in your box.  One of the best things about the hackspace is that people use things for purposes for which they were not originally intended, to me its a good thing if they do that.

I understand your concerns, but I think we shouldn't lock things away unless theres a real danger that people can break them by not being trained, or hurt themselves.  So why would someone be able to hurt this machine, more than they would the welding equipment, soldering irons, power supplies, or even root access on tesla? All of which are open access, we have lots of tools, such as these that are left unlocked and rarely we have a problem, and I really hate to lock stuff away unless its absolutely needed

[Clare Greenhalgh]

So you think it is a good idea to make people get trained to use the lasercutter, but not my own sewing machine?

[Martin (Crypt)]

So you think its a good idea to let people use the soldering irons, power supplies, welding equpment and tesla without training, but need traing to use your sewing machine? Thats really not relevant.  I was asking  you to make a reasonable case for why training and locking away is needed.  For the laser cutter this case has already been made and accepted.

[Clare Greenhalgh]

My sewing machine came home again after people had taken it apart and left it in pieces for the third time. 

[Martin (Crypt)]

So the need for training would be negated by a DNH sticker?

[AlisonW]

"my own ... machine"

I think this is the real issue. People, like Clare and myself, perceive risks if we bring kit in for others to use if that kit is not _restricted_ in some way. How that happens, indeed whether personal machines should ever be available to the non-owner when the owner isn't present, is the question. In my case I'm keeping stuff in the boot of my car and it only comes out if I'm there, but even then drill bits etc have been abused.

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad. Yes, really!

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[Charles Yarnold]

Threadspace has been plagued in the past by people not knowing how to setup the machines properly and damaging them in the process, DNH or not, its something that has happened and will likely continue.

This happens to both personal and shared sewing machines alike.

This isn't about fending off a possible problem, its about fixing an existing one.

[Mark Steward]

I think we need to differentiate restrictions based on the tool, demands for personal equipment that's on long-term loan, and materials.

Materials, unless they're particularly valuable or delicate, shouldn't need to be locked away.  They could, however, be stored in a designated cupboard or box on the members selves.  If you want the space to have more stock and don't want to risk your own, we can work out what's needed and pledge for it.

Personal equipment may come with provisos attached - if the proviso for having your sewing machine at the space is that it's kept in a locked cupboard, then let everyone know before bringing it in, and consensus can be found on whether it's worth it.  Otherwise, I suspect you'll find people don't leave it locked up, and that you have to take it home again.

The laser cutter and other tools have been locked down by consensus because they're sensitive or dangerous when misused.  This would be the case regardless of what the lenders/pledgers demand.

Mark

[Aden]

Is threadspace even a thing? Do they have meetings where they can train people?

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[Tamsin Bowles]

I think Clare's trying to make the point that a sewing machine is a delicate piece if equipment much like one of the lathes,  and if you don't know how to use it,  you may end up breaking it or meaning the next person needs to spend half an hour sorting the tension out before using it.  It's not unheard of for people to end up putting a sewing machine needle through their fingers if they aren't paying attention, and whilst a major injury it still hurts and can probably put you off the whole sewing thing.

[Simon Howes]

Hmm. This thread has become quite highly emotionally charged suddenly.

I think if I understand this correctly the issue with these sort of craft items is they are more "clean room" and delicate than most other slightly hackspace equipment. Soldering irons for example, pretty much every soldering iron has been used at some point to melt plastic by a noob (or expand a drilled hole - I see you there!) But it generally isn't detrimental to the machine.

Sewing/knitting machines are small and finickedy. They have loads of little bits and doodads and things that they need. They need to be kept clean and away from paint, greasy pawprints and the like. Even someone just restacking the machine on its side for example as they try to make space for their project can result in the really important bits falling out and rolling away. The bits aren't regular washers and nuts that can readily be found elsewhere in the workshop

Similarly for something like a corkboard pinning table- it needs to remain clean. Yet to the unititated it just looks like a nice flat, invitingly clean, area they can do some spraying or painting on. Stack some bits on a knitting machine or lay a chunk of heavy wood against it and you'll bend its little bits and render it useless. A pile of material scraps seems a perfect place to grab a rag when your hands are all greasy from working on an engine (thus spreading grease over all of the cleanroom stuff)... etc.

So maybe the consideration is more of a feather-room (clean, soft things go here) than just a craft room? I'm sure there's an overlap here with some other requirements - things we might want to keep away from hurty messy things?

[Adrian Godwin]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:

So maybe the consideration is more of a feather-room (clean, soft things go here) than just a craft room? I'm sure there's an overlap here with some other requirements - things we might want to keep away from hurty messy things?

Like, another room with only clean things in ? Such as a room used for musical stuff ?
 

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Craft rooms get very dusty/dirty/linty, it would be a mistake to take them as a clean room.

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:50:06 PM UTC+1, Noko wrote:

[pad...@padski.co.uk]

Indeed, the access control is intended to prevent kit from getting fucked...


Sent from my thing.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Clare Greenhalgh" <claregr...@gmail.com>
To: <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [london-hack-space] Small sound proofed room as craft room

Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 15:12

My sewing machine came home again after people had taken it apart and left it in pieces for the third time. 

[Simon Howes]

moreover, is it the case we want something more like a secure closet where fragile things can be locked when they're not being worked on?

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[Paul Dart]

I understand the equipment requirement, but buttons and material?

We have wood stocks and electronic component drawers. One of the compromises of having a shared space with the flexibility of doing spur of the moment projects is that these materials are available but may net be used how you think they should.

I don't see why crafting materials should be any different. Everything can be misused. For equipment we have talked about access control. For raw materials I think it should be open access.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see how crafts is a special case?

Thanks,
Paul

[Clare Greenhalgh]

I think that is right - but it is the machinery that we need to look after! I think I got a little carried away before....

[Wren Montgomery]

Some quick notes: 

It would be most awesome if the cutting table had full 360 degree access when it is needed for cutting/tracing jobs; I'm not sure if the small room is large enough for that.  I also think that having a dedicated craft area in the main space would raise the profile (and maybe the activity level) of crafts in the LHS generally.

I had an interesting and relevant conversation when I dropped by this Sunday about the cutting table.  We need a way to label it so that it is clear that it may be used as a temporary supplementary flat space when the protective cover is on but leaving it covered with things, *even communal things*, is counterproductive and discourages use for its actual purpose.  One reason this happens is most people using the space have no clue what it's for.

My feeling as regards common crafting supplies came up during the cutting table discussions and remains the same: for anything crafty that is also a commonly used tool [I was thinking about scissors at the time], it's simply not worth buying common ones.  Bring your own, use them in the space, and raise awareness of proper tools and treatment of them for techniques not currently well-represented in the LHS. 

Clare, what do you consider "misuse" of craft materials?

Wren

[Adrian Godwin]

The classroom is now far better as a resource for something like a fabrics workshop. Under those circumstances, a cutting table could be put in the middle of the room, and we can also now reasonably store it on a wall.

I appreciate that one of the design features of the cutting table was that it should be available and not require taking down from the wall by someone who finds that unmanageable, but I do think we've now got a layout that could allow really good facilities if someone wanted to run regular workshops (like the lockpicking, arduino and reprap groups do).

[Wren Montgomery]

What is the point of having a resource and storing it in such a way that it is completely inaccessible, especially to the people who are most likely to use it?

The only wall-mounting proposal which has been made (to me) invloved hinging it to the wall, which prevents 360 degree access.

At the moment, LHS has no shortage of space to really merit such a proposal.

Wren

[hfs...@googlemail.com]

Why not have the cutting table outside, where we have bountiful open plan space? (or will have once the junk gets moved)

[Wren Montgomery]

That's what I'm proposing, provided we can convince the community to treat it like any other table in the large space and leave it empty when not being used as either a cutting table or a regular table (instead of allowing it to accrue serious piles of stuff as it did in the old space.)  Keep the sewing machine(s) and iron (and ironing board if there is one?) in secure cupboards nearby.

Wren

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