Cleaner
Robert Leverington
I'd like to propose that the hackspace employs a cleaner, in particular
for the three toilets, kitchen, vacuuming, and cleaning the desks.
For the past 1 year we have been operating a volunteer system for doing
the cleaning. This has clearly failed.
As far as I can tell (please correct me if I am wrong), the only person
to have cleaned the toilets since Yuri's night is me. If not, then
surely only one or two other people could have done this aswell.
Today maggots had to be cleared out of the kitchen.
All of these cleaning tasks need to be done *at least* twice a week to
keep the space in a pleasant state. Members are clearly unwilling to
participate this.
I find it absolutley digusting, and am vehemently opposed to having a
cleaner as I believe that participating in the cleaning is something
that *all* members should be involved in doing simply because it is the
considerate thing to do. Even if it is as simple as cleaning a sink
once a week, or hoovering the floor of one room. But this hasn't worked,
and as far as I can imagine won't work - ever.
Cleaners can be employed at approximatley �7.50/hour at the volumes we
require. I would estimate that to clean all the items I mentioned is
3-4 hours work - so this would be around �300/month. This would be
more than affordable for us (especially once we become a charity and
have the associated increase in income). I suspect it would also
increase our membership levels as I highly suspect that many people are
discouraged from joining due to the fact that 90% of the time the space
is an utter pigsty.
Robert
Billy
It would help if people cleaned up after themselves and pulled up
members that don't.
Whether it's the workshop, the toilets or the kitchen, if you make a
mess, clean it up.
If we all did it, this wouldn't be needed.
I've arrived at the space and seen the bins full to over-flowing, and
they haven't been emptied. There will usually have been 4 or 5 people
in the space, and it won't have been done.
As soon as you see them filled, then change them.
Adrian Godwin
>
> It would help if people cleaned up after themselves and pulled up
> members that don't.
>
Yes, this is what should happen. But as robert points out, it has
failed to happen well enough. Time to try another approach. Think of
it as contributing to the local economy.
-adrian
Billy
I'd prefer it if members of the space were a little more
confrontational at times.
As a social space, it's not a preferred solution, but put it like
this, anyone who isn't tidying up after themselves is already being
confrontational is a passive-aggressive manner.
Having lived in a wide variety of shared housing and used a variety of
shared workspaces, this sort of thing has always been the primary
cause of friction.
As i've said to a number of people, look around you, make a list of
things that need doing, choose something and do it. Yesterday, someone
replied, "Ask not what the hackspace can do for you, but what you can
do for the hackspace... :))" Shame that they were thinking on so small
a scale.
It's a principle that should be applied to the universe.
Mark Steward
Mark Steward
Cepmender
| Two full weeks ago the kitchen worktop was covered in blue crap, on enquiry the perpetrator freely admitted responsibility, going into detail about how "awesome" the food was that had been the source of the mess. It was pointed out that cleaning up might be a good idea. The crap was still there last night. The message from that person is very clear..... My message is also very clear, (start rant) THERE IS NOTHING AWESOME ABOUT LEAVING THE PLACE IN THAT CONDITION it is far from the excellence that should be the norm here. (end rant) While I (and all the other members I have discussed the issue with) don't mind a bit of light cleaning, I am not interested in clearing up after people who just don't care and who plainly have no respect for the facilities or their fellow members. --- On Sat, 30/7/11, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote: |
|
Cepmender
| No, It means that the sleepers will have to move!!! (yes, even me.... :-D )_ |
Tim Hutt
I agree with getting a cleaner. Also for emptying bins/recycling, where are then bin bags and where do the full bags go?
Philippe Bradley
Mark Steward
Martin
Tim Hutt
I agree, so I think they should only be responsible for the kitchen, toilets, quiet room and hoovering.
Jonty Wareing
We wouldn't be asking them to clean desks, just the floor, toilets and
kitchen. That said, shit shouldn't be left lying around in the first
place unless it's clearly labelled. If the cleaner moves everything left
on the floor into the 3-week box people might learn a lesson.
I'm all in favour of this, I have a strong suspicion that the state of
the space is losing us members both in terms of current people and
potential new members. While �300/mo is a significant amount of money, I
think we've reached the point where it's becoming an unavoidable
expense.
This doesn't solve the messiness issue in the space though - we still
need to stop people putting things back in the wrong place, or not
putting them back at all. (Example: The three sets of digital calipers,
which appear to have come equipped with legs and a set of hide-and-seek
rules)
--jonty
Tim Hutt
Wrt the digital callipers, I found one in its box rather than on the wall. If no one objects I shall throw the box away, since it confuses where they live, and is essentially just clutter.
Alec Wright
I actually joked about this the other day, I didn't think our funds
would be able to cover it, but if they can, I'd be in favour of this. I
think the space would be a much more appealing place to be if it were
cleaned regularly.
This email was a lot longer, then I realised most of it was me being
hypocritical and complaining about having to clean up after people when
I'm actually part of the problem since I don't really pull my weight
myself.
Martin Dittus
It also strikes me as a lazy approach to addressing a conflict that exists by design. I have great respect for the fundamental choice of running the Hackspace as an organisation almost exclusively based on emergent structures; but I want to point out that for any other organisation it would be a natural step to put members on a cleaning duty schedule.
In respect to Phil's observation below -- have we ever discussed reprimands for big offences? E.g. have we ever ejected a member for wilful violation of The Rules?
http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Rules
m.
Luke Graham
mkinga
clean is dedicated bins, dustpad and brush placed by each machine etc.
that is capable of making mess i.e. lathe, mill etc. Each bin, pan and
brush also needs to be labeled with "Lathe" Mill" "Kitchen" etc. and
if it's not where it should be then it's easy to tell where to return
it to! It's not a huge expense and it saves people having to play hunt
the dustpan and brush. Also (and I note it's been done to a certain
extent with the lathe) dedicated tool boards for each machine, even
if it means duplicating some tools greatly increases the chances of
being able to find the tools needed for that particular machine. Of
course there is never a perfect system, there is always going to be
the human factor but I suspect you'll find it helps. A few "friendly"
signs such as "Your mother doesn't work here please clean up after
yourself" and "This isn't a student flat please clean up..." ;-) In
strategic places might also be an idea. IMV a cleaner shouldn't be
necissary but if it's decided that one is needed then their
responsibilities should be stricktly restricted to basic cleaning and
NOT putting stuff away.
Martin.
Martin Dittus
As we were cleaning up the soldering station today the same had occurred to us as well: there's a perpetual mess because there is a lack of storage space for tools and scrap materials. (We turned the black fake military metal box into a "Tools" box now.)
m.
Sam Cook
amx109
This is a recurring topic, and I still maintain that we haven't reached the end of our attempts of using social mechanisms. In particular we're still not very good at spreading awareness of this topic beyond a core group, and teaching how to actually clean the space (by e.g. documenting the steps in situ.)
It also strikes me as a lazy approach to addressing a conflict that exists by design. I have great respect for the fundamental choice of running the Hackspace as an organisation almost exclusively based on emergent structures; but I want to point out that for any other organisation it would be a natural step to put members on a cleaning duty schedule.
In respect to Phil's observation below -- have we ever discussed reprimands for big offences? E.g. have we ever ejected a member for wilful violation of The Rules?
http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Rules
m.
i would like to second martin's sentiment that we havent explored the full avenue of possibilities.
citing one specific area, this is what the 10pm tuesday cleanup was aimed at; to have a weekly tidying/cleaning session that would serve the functional purpose but also to highlight it to a wider audience, since tuesdays are a night when alot of people turn up.
Robert Leverington
is a big issue, but it isn't something a cleaner would be able to help
with.
Cleaning the toilets, cleaning the kitchen, cleaning the floor are not
communal tasks that require any element of discussion. They just need
to be done.
At the moment, they are rarely being carried out. The only way I can
see of ever solving this is to somehow incentivise it, or to get a
cleaner. Does anyone have any suggestions in this regard?
I would suspect that having a clean environment is likely to make people
respect it more (in terms of tidying up after themselves, etc.).
Robert
On 2011-07-30, Sam Cook wrote:
> When I'm next in (2nd week of Aug) I will make a series of boxes (similar
> dimensions to window boxes for flowers) I will then be attaching these to
> the desks.
>
> Crap left on the desks will then be swept into these.
>
> I fucking hate the amont of shit that gets left on the desks and then ends
> up on the floor; I hope this will help.
>
> I will also be drilling a fuck- off big hole in the back of workbench and
> attaching a thing to get it into the bin.
>
> Anyone object to this?
>
> S
>
> On 30 July 2011 15:40, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I very much like these suggestions.
> >
> > As we were cleaning up the soldering station today the same had occurred to
> > us as well: there's a perpetual mess because there is a lack of storage
> > space for tools and scrap materials. (We turned the black fake military
> > metal box into a "Tools" box now.)
> >
> > m.
> >
> >
> > On 30 Jul 2011, at 15:35, mkinga wrote:
> >
Adrian Godwin
> Seconded. I suspect those people who hang around ignoring the overflowing
> bins, stacked sink and surfaces and yesterday's pizza boxes will find it
> easier if the space actually ends up tidy on a regular basis. It should
> also help provide a cut-off point by which people can clear the desks and
> make the Hackspace safe for visitors.
>
I have no idea why it's acceptable to leave dirty items in the sink.
What do you expect to happen to them ? Rot until they're clean ? They
can either be washed up when you finish with them or put in the
dishwasher, not left for Mark or anyone else to clear. No other
alternatives.
-adrian
Adrian Godwin
encouraged. If it's daylight and you're still asleep, expect to be
woken. You're lucky to be allowed to sleep at all. I'm not directing
this to anyone in particular as nobody has ever complained to me about
being woken, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.
-adrian
mkinga
with around 300 members in a shared space but you would hope that the
sort of people that sign up to the hackspace idea are going to respect
property etc. A bought in cleaner is a risk. Where I currently work
we've got through about five cleaners in as many years. One was caught
making international phone calls on our phones, another stole a
projector and the others were simply crap at cleaning! Our current one
is probably on her way out after she threw a bin bag of rubbish down a
starwell without checking whether there was anyone at the bottom
(there was and it narrowly missed them). Maybe we're unlucky but it
does tend to be a minimum wage job.
Martin.
Simon Howes
On the other hand, i know someone very trustworthy that would do cleaning for about 30quid a session, once a week. This is a lot cheaper than the quoted 300 and if he sucks, we can always fire him (but that said hed prolly do a great job)
Sam Kelly
That brings up a very important point! We should definitely pay anyone we employ (or contract) the London Living Wage, currently £8.30 per hour. It's ethically the right thing to do, and it makes sense from a security standpoint too, as they're likely to be much more honest and loyal if we pay them more than the bare minimum.
Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/
That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
Mark Steward
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:54 PM, mkinga <mfx...@gmail.com> wrote:BTW another issue with cleaners is security. It's enough of a risk
with around 300 members in a shared space but you would hope that the
sort of people that sign up to the hackspace idea are going to respect
property etc. A bought in cleaner is a risk. Where I currently work
we've got through about five cleaners in as many years. One was caught
making international phone calls on our phones, another stole a
projector and the others were simply crap at cleaning! Our current one
is probably on her way out after she threw a bin bag of rubbish down a
starwell without checking whether there was anyone at the bottom
(there was and it narrowly missed them). Maybe we're unlucky but it
does tend to be a minimum wage job.
That brings up a very important point! We should definitely pay anyone we employ (or contract) the London Living Wage, currently £8.30 per hour. It's ethically the right thing to do, and it makes sense from a security standpoint too, as they're likely to be much more honest and loyal if we pay them more than the bare minimum.
Tim Matthews
I find this a great idea, from the start I have always believed in
having a cleaner.
It's just a fact of life -- people don't clean up after themselves.
And another fact of life, it's a very serious health and safety issue.
The Hackspace is big, very big ... and with the more people there is
much more chaos. Chaos is great and does encourage creativity,
however, when things get too messy then chaos can work against us. We
need to find the right balance here.
Therefore, it would be a great idea to have the place cleaned during
quiet times, like on Monday and Thursday mornings. And if we got one
or two cleaners, they would have the Hackspace back in a civilised
state within one hour. It's amazing seeing cleaners at work, I wish I
could clean that well.
For Health and Safety it would be the best investment we could make.
The only thing the cleaners need from us (rather than cleaning stuff)
is someone who can guide them and who can show them what to do.
t.
On Jul 30, 4:59 am, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to propose that the hackspace employs a cleaner, in particular
> for the three toilets, kitchen, vacuuming, and cleaning the desks.
>
> For the past 1 year we have been operating a volunteer system for doing
> the cleaning. This has clearly failed.
>
> As far as I can tell (please correct me if I am wrong), the only person
> to have cleaned the toilets since Yuri's night is me. If not, then
> surely only one or two other people could have done this aswell.
>
> Today maggots had to be cleared out of the kitchen.
>
> All of these cleaning tasks need to be done *at least* twice a week to
> keep the space in a pleasant state. Members are clearly unwilling to
> participate this.
>
> I find it absolutley digusting, and am vehemently opposed to having a
> cleaner as I believe that participating in the cleaning is something
> that *all* members should be involved in doing simply because it is the
> considerate thing to do. Even if it is as simple as cleaning a sink
> once a week, or hoovering the floor of one room. But this hasn't worked,
> and as far as I can imagine won't work - ever.
>
Katie Sutton
Incidentally, someone I know is a cleaner between other work, and I
would be prepared to vouch for her. She was/is Poggs' housemate so
he'll know her too.
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Matt Peperell
interested)
--
Regards,
Matt Peperell
Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890
Skype: mattpep
Peter Hicks
Incidentally, someone I know is a cleaner between other work, and I
would be prepared to vouch for her. She was/is Poggs' housemate so
he'll know her too.
Is :) She is excellent.
Poggs
Adrian Godwin
strategy for avoiding H&S issues is currently to make everyone in the
space responsible for themselves, as members or guests rather than
employees. It may be that using an agency avoids this, though I have
some doubts.
I have no actual knowledge of the legal situation and I'm only
advising caution & research rather than saying this can't be done.
Perhaps Pogg's housemate herself would be a good person to ask.
You may have noticed that I'm not usually one to be overcautious but
I'm more worried by lawyers and civil service officials than by either
rational or non-sentient entities. I think it's really important that
we establish a culture where people are responsible for their own
safety rather than blaming the organisation : this might be as
important in the Maker culture as the GPL is in software and I believe
we should go out of our way to ensure we do it right, legally, morally
and practically.
-adrian
Russ Garrett
> There's a potential problem with employing a cleaner direct : our
> strategy for avoiding H&S issues is currently to make everyone in the
> space responsible for themselves, as members or guests rather than
> employees. It may be that using an agency avoids this, though I have
> some doubts.
We have a Health and Safety obligation to anyone employed on our
premises, this is true. But if they're just hoovering the floor and
cleaning up, I would be quite worried if they were exposed to anything
dangerous. Nothing in the space should be hazardous to you unless you
interact with it.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Adrian Godwin
stuff (which makes a lot of sense, I agree) then that's great, no
problem.
-adrian
Philippe Bradley
Mark Steward
It's all pretty academic (like much of the dialogue on this mailing list) since the Space probably has occupier's liability (in tort/negligence) for anything that happens to anyone in the space, employee or not. But there are other specific ways, besides employees' elfansafety.
Let's say the cleaner, in the course of his/her employment, ruins something very expensive belonging to a member or guest, e.g. a work laptop. Well, vicarious liability means that liability for the employee's actions could possibly fall on the 'Space.However I'm not an employment lawyer and perhaps if the cleaner is held to be a contractor not an employee, then the situation is different.
Darren Hubbard
Agents will usually find themselves vicariously liable also so making the cleaner a contractor would not necessarily protect the 'space.
(IANAL)
Adrian Godwin
sometimes blame for their inability to allow public access ? If so,
it's highly likely that it's frequently misstated for the owner's own
reasons.
Where could we get advice on this sort of thing ? Preferably from
someone with no vested interest in creating conflict ? We should be
campaigning against the elements of these laws that are used to
incorrectly assign responsibility. The current government seems keen
to sweep away this sort of stuff and we might be able to benefit from
that.
-adrian
Philippe Bradley
Catherine Flick
Kirsten Skillen
My boyfriends mum was an empolyment lawyer and had her own legal firm priour to retirement 3 years ago any help
On 1 Aug 2011 15:06, "Adrian Godwin" <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is occupier's liability the thing that private and council landowners
sometimes blame for their inability to allow public access ? If so,
it's highly likely that it's frequently misstated for the owner's own
reasons.
Where could we get advice on this sort of thing ? Preferably from
someone with no vested interest in creating conflict ? We should be
campaigning against the elements of these laws that are used to
incorrectly assign responsibility. The current government seems keen
to sweep away this sort of stuff and we might be able to benefit from
that.
-adrian
On 8/1/11, Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's all pretty academic (like much ...
Gavan Fantom
> Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd
> suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather
> than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.
Personally, I'd suggest first looking at the webcam archives.
--
Gillette - the best a man can forget
Alec Wright
> On 31/07/2011 00:58, Sam Kelly wrote:
> > Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd
> > suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather
> > than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.
>
> Personally, I'd suggest first looking at the webcam archives.
>
around, any sensible theif would make sure they were pointing the other
way first.
Sam Cook
Adrian Godwin
But I've had a rethink : it seems to me that having someone who's job it is to clean goes against the principle that we're responsible for our own actions. People who leave the work to someone else will have no reason to change.
What about a rota ? If every member was allocated a week, and did half a day's cleaning during that week, their turn wouldn't come around again for about 6 years. Even if it only applied to members who'd attended the space during the previous year, it wouldn't be frequent.
-adrian
Jim MacArthur
Adrian Godwin
-adrian
Kieran
> > What about a rota ? If every member was allocated a week, and did half a
> > day's cleaning during that week, their turn wouldn't come around again for
> > about 6 years. Even if it only applied to members who'd attended the space
> > during the previous year, it wouldn't be frequent.
>
> I'd prefer this approach to getting a cleaner. I'd like it to be a
> bit more flexible, as it's often 6 weeks between visits for me.
> Presumably as with most rotas, swapping with other members would be OK.
Wouldn't work; it would be a mix of a few people doing properly, a few more
doing a half-arsed job and the majority ignoring it entirely.
Adrian Godwin
Wouldn't work; it would be a mix of a few people doing properly, a few more
doing a half-arsed job and the majority ignoring it entirely.
Ignoring entirely : revoke membership. Frankly, there's no place for people like that in a community effort. I don't believe we need their money so much that we want to work for them. If a significant proportion of membership have that attitude I predict the hackspace's demise in short order anyway.
Half-arsed : more tricky. But unless we get a run of half-arsed people on consecutive weeks, it'll still be better than we have now. And if we employ a cleaner, we might get a crummy one and take a few weeks to sack them.
-adrian
Russ Garrett
> But what we have now doesn't work either, so it wouldn't be worse.
>
> Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.
How do you tell if someone is using the space enough to warrant them
doing a cleaning shift? If they turn up once? Once per year? Once per
month?
We have a lot of irregular users who might be deterred from coming to
the space if this automatically requires them to spend half a day
cleaning up other peoples' mess.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Richard Fine
> it seems to me that having someone who's job it is
> to clean goes against the principle that we're responsible for our own
> actions. People who leave the work to someone else will have no reason to
> change.
>
> What about a rota ?
Maybe you could combine having a rota with having a cleaner. Have a rota
of who is *responsible* for the space being clean; when it's your turn
you can *either* clean the place up yourself, *or* hire the cleaner (and
cover the cost yourself, or get messy people to pay up, or whatever
works for you). That way, people are still responsible for looking after
the space themselves, but it's up to them exactly how they go about
doing that - if you'd rather pay a bit of cash than get your hands
dirty, you're free to do so.
It'd be better to organize one particular cleaning agency that people
call in - might be some economies of scale, and there are fewer trust
issues.
To ensure that it wouldn't be killed by apathy, you might need to set
things up such that the cleaner is the 'default' option somehow - e.g.
get people to put down cash deposits, credit card, D/D or whatever, and
use it to cover the cost of calling in the cleaner in the event that
it's the end of their shift and they've not done anything. (Which is
almost like having an incentive: clean the space yourself, get paid your
own deposit! :) )
- Richard
Wren Montgomery
W
Russ Garrett
> Maybe you could combine having a rota with having a cleaner. Have a rota of
> who is *responsible* for the space being clean; when it's your turn you can
> *either* clean the place up yourself, *or* hire the cleaner (and cover the
> cost yourself, or get messy people to pay up, or whatever works for you).
In my student house, we had a cleaning rota which nobody followed.
Every week I'd do all the washing up and then guilt my housemates into
buying me beer. It worked quite well.
</anecdote>
I don't think any rota-based system will work for Hackspace. There is
just such a huge range of involvement, from people who are around
nearly every day to people who haven't been in over a year. They
shouldn't have the same amount of obligation to keep the space clean.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Wren Montgomery
Further...I am lousy at cleaning things. I know this, I embrace this. Having a rota really opens the possibility of endless trolling re quality of cleaning. Far, far simpler to pay someone to do a consistent job.
W
Nigel Worsley
I am one of those people, and there is no way that I am going to spend
any of the little time I manage to spend in the space clearing up after
a bunch of lazy slobs that practically live there.
>> Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.
Wouldn't be necessary, I would resign in disgust if such a system was
put in place. You don't want my £20 a month? Or my regular contributions
to pledges? Fine, screw you and I will find a hackspace that does.
nigle
Adrian Godwin
On 10/08/2011 16:32, Russ Garrett wrote:
On 10 August 2011 16:26, Adrian Godwin<artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
But what we have now doesn't work either, so it wouldn't be worse.
Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.
How do you tell if someone is using the space enough to warrant them
doing a cleaning shift? If they turn up once? Once per year? Once per
month?
Good question, but is this an implementation issue or a fundamental flaw ?
I am one of those people, and there is no way that I am going to spend
any of the little time I manage to spend in the space clearing up after
a bunch of lazy slobs that practically live there.
nigle
I might feel the same, but one occasion in 6 years ? I can live with that.
-adrian
Adrian Godwin
To ensure that it wouldn't be killed by apathy, you might need to set things up such that the cleaner is the 'default' option somehow - e.g. get people to put down cash deposits, credit card, D/D or whatever, and use it to cover the cost of calling in the cleaner in the event that it's the end of their shift and they've not done anything. (Which is almost like having an incentive: clean the space yourself, get paid your own deposit! :) )
- Richard
Or you could just bribe another member to stand in for you.
-adrian
amx109
a recurring pledge where you can pledge money or your time for cleaning?
Richard Fine
main point was just that once one person has been assigned
responsibility for a week, it's then up to them to decide whether they
want to pull on marigolds and scrub the toilet themselves, or whether
they'd rather call in the professionals. Instead of making "do we do it
or do we call in a cleaner" a space-wide decision, leave it largely up
to individual members.
On 8/10/2011 4:38 PM, Russ Garrett wrote:
> There is just such a huge range of involvement, from people who are
> around nearly every day to people who haven't been in over a year.
> They shouldn't have the same amount of obligation to keep the space
> clean.
If we're going to take that as a constraint, then we're going to need
some way of measuring which people are using the space the most, no
matter which solution that then is used for, I think.
Maybe assign responsibility using something like: At the end of the
week, pick a random sign-in from the logs of the front door. The owner
of the card used to sign in is then responsible for cleaning the space
the following week. That'd bias the system towards regular users, while
still allowing for the possibility that occasional users would still
have to clean up once in a while. There'd probably need to be some other
constraints, like not picking the same person more than once a month,
but you get the general idea.
- Richard
Russ Garrett
>> On 10/08/2011 16:32, Russ Garrett wrote:
>>> How do you tell if someone is using the space enough to warrant them
>>> doing a cleaning shift? If they turn up once? Once per year? Once per
>>> month?
>>>
>
> Good question, but is this an implementation issue or a fundamental flaw ?
Well, to be pedantic, it's probably both :)
Clearly the best implementation of this (which combines both yours and
Richard's suggestions) would be to allocate people points based on how
often they're at the space. You could regulate the flow of points
based on a consensus metric of how clean the space is. Once you've
reached a certain amount of points, you'd be obliged to clean the
space.
Then of course you could implement a market-based trading system where
people could trade these points. If you were short of cash, people
could pay you to take their points off them, then you could clean the
space.
I've basically just invented emissions trading, here.
My point, though, is that you can't measure how often people are in
the space. Nor can you measure how dirty they are making the space,
which is actually what we're trying to regulate (what if someone comes
in regularly and just uses their laptop?).
This is one of those social problems which you can't apply a technical
solution to.
We have two options:
1) Find some way to *persuade* (not force) people to do more cleaning, or
2) Pay a cleaner.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Richard Fine
> Not a bad idea, provided an agency will do one-offs rather than regular
> contracts (I would they they would, but will probably charge a fair bit
> more)
>
> Or you could just bribe another member to stand in for you.
Indeed. It might even be an opportunity for members who don't mind
cleaning to make a little cash - all you have to do is undercut the
(probably a bit expensive) cleaning agency.
The rule wouldn't be "the only people who can be paid to clean is agency
X," it'd be "the only outside agency allowed to come into the Hackspace
is agency X." Anyone who already has access to the space (i.e. because
they're a member) could be paid to clean as well, if they're up for it.
It's a better rule anyway because it better captures exactly what we
care about, namely that the number of potential risks to the security of
the space is kept low.
- Richard
Adrian Godwin
a recurring pledge where you can pledge money or your time for cleaning?
That's fine, but if you look through the last few rages, the common element is that some people who are presumably happy to pay membership are less happy to contribute to other aspects of the community. I'm not going to claim that forcing participation would reverse that, but I felt we should look for a solution that headed in that direction rather than encouraging further non-cooperation.
Delighted to see discussion about it. I'm defending in order to keep the debate constructive, rather than because I think it's the one and only possible solution.
-adrian
Sam Kelly
Rota for small teams, not individuals, would help with that. Also, lots of signs about what needs doing, how, where the stuff should be.
(Phone)
M
This wouldn't be needed if everyone cleared up after themselves.
--
>
++++++++++[>+>+++>++
+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.
Dave Ingram
Rota for small teams, not individuals, would help with that. Also, lots of signs about what needs doing, how, where the stuff should be.
D
Billy
This is a problem faced in a number of flat/house-shares i've lived
in.
One housing co-op had the solution, that your rent was money, but also
a certain amount of time.
Sometimes it was time spent gardening, sometimes it was tidying,
sometimes it was meetings and admin. In general, they found that
making it a social occasion made it more likely to happen.
Could we introduce some form of time element to the membership to fix
this?
Adrian Godwin
Clearly the best implementation of this (which combines both yours and
Richard's suggestions) would be to allocate people points based on how
often they're at the space. You could regulate the flow of points
based on a consensus metric of how clean the space is. Once you've
reached a certain amount of points, you'd be obliged to clean the
space.
Then of course you could implement a market-based trading system where
people could trade these points. If you were short of cash, people
could pay you to take their points off them, then you could clean the
space.
I've basically just invented emissions trading, here.
Dangerously close to ?wv, I'd say :-)
My point, though, is that you can't measure how often people are in
the space. Nor can you measure how dirty they are making the space,
which is actually what we're trying to regulate (what if someone comes
in regularly and just uses their laptop?).
If it were the whole space, that would be more of a problem. But the original cleaner proposal was only to cover the kitchen, carpets and toilets, not the workshop. These are areas that everyone has to cope with in their own homes (and if you already have a maid, I guess you could send her ..), and that pretty well everyone in the space uses.
This is one of those social problems which you can't apply a technical
solution to.
We have two options:
1) Find some way to *persuade* (not force) people to do more cleaning, or
We haven't found a way to persuade anybody to follow consensus decisions if they don't want to. Forcing is bad. Non-cooperation is worse. IMHO.
2) Pay a cleaner.
Yeah, but I've brought this up again because
a) We haven't got one yet
b) After a cleaner, what next ? A tidier? A machine maintenance man ? (not a bad idea actually, but still ... )
Russ Garrett
1) Cleaning which can be done by an external cleaner. This is tedious,
regular stuff like hoovering and cleaning toilets. Everyone *can* do
it, but nobody wants to, really.
2) Tidying up tools, maintaining machines, etc. We can't really get
people in to do this, and this is the bit that I'd rather spend time
trying to encourage people to do.
Personally, I think we should pay for 1 so we have more time to spend on 2.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
M
--
danny staple
away any rubbish I've used, put my cup in dishwasher, cans in the bin.
If I stripped wire, make sure I do it over a bin, or sweep it away -
in other words, keep my mess impact on the space as minimal as
possible. I've been there in total 3 times since I joined (following
the whole gadget shop thing) - and as things are at the moment,
unlikely to be back for a matter of months (new baby etc), but I will
continue to pay membership, because a) I want to see this space
succeed - this concept is actually quite important to me and b) I want
to keep my box (although if I could organise it, there are a couple of
bits that it'd be handy to get back over into West London at some
point).
Anyway, I digress - irregular users should just take care to clean up
their own mess before they go I think.
--
Danny Staple
Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple
Sam Cook
Mark Steward
As an irregular user myself, my take is to make sure I put away/tidy
away any rubbish I've used, put my cup in dishwasher, cans in the bin.
If I stripped wire, make sure I do it over a bin, or sweep it away -
in other words, keep my mess impact on the space as minimal as
possible.
I've been there in total 3 times since I joined (following
the whole gadget shop thing) - and as things are at the moment,
unlikely to be back for a matter of months (new baby etc), but I will
continue to pay membership, because a) I want to see this space
succeed - this concept is actually quite important to me and b) I want
to keep my box (although if I could organise it, there are a couple of
bits that it'd be handy to get back over into West London at some
point).
Anyway, I digress - irregular users should just take care to clean up
their own mess before they go I think.
Cepmender
| Agree with this. An avenue not explored IIRC is whether a member would like to be paid for this task either by way of a free subscription or just straight cash. Duties would be... Clean lavatories/wash basins and swab floors. Clean kitchen and swab floor. Vacuum carpets. Sweep workshop floor. Empty bins. There would be no expectation that any materials/heavy stuff/tools etc. should be moved or tidied. An hour and a half twice a week should be sufficient. At £10 an hour? that would cover a subscription. --- On Wed, 10/8/11, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote: |
Paddy Duncan
I’d be up for this. I have been thinking about joining recently anyway, and this sounds like a perfect deal.
I live just up the road and have no aversion to cleaning whatsoever.. J
Paddy
%3A%2F%-î
This email was scanned by VIPRE version 4.0.3904 when it was received, using
definitions version 9122
Charles Yarnold
Will Pearson
vote on who has been doing the most cleaning; with the top 5 get a
small prize? I'm thinking amazon vouchers or similar.
Cheaper than a cleaner, still us doing the work. Semi-random/
competitive rewards* should work in theory.
Will
*http://www.oliverburkeman.com/2011/04/the-evil-powers-of-random-
rewards-and-how-to-harness-them-for-good/
On Aug 11, 2:54 pm, Charles Yarnold <charlesyarn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think giving someone a discount on their membership or a free one is a bad
> idea, we are all equal and should hand over cash.
>
> It was decided not to give "honorary" memberships to those lending
> equipment, I don't think we should reverse this for someone who does some
> cleaning.
>
> By all means they could use the cash they earn to pay for their membership,
> but not more than that.
>
> Sol
>
> On 11 August 2011 09:59, Paddy Duncan <pad...@padski.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I’d be up for this. I have been thinking about joining recently anyway,
>
> > I live just up the road and have no aversion to cleaning whatsoever.. J***
> > *
>
> > Paddy****
>
> > ** **
> > ------------------------------
>
> > *From:* london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> > london-h...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Cepmender
> > *Sent:* 11 August 2011 09:17
>
> > *To:* london-h...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Cleaner
> > ****
>
> > ** **
>
> > Agree with this.****
>
> > ** **
> > An avenue not explored IIRC is whether a member would like to be paid for
>
> > ** **
>
> > Duties would be...****
>
> > Clean lavatories/wash basins and swab floors.****
>
> > Clean kitchen and swab floor.****
>
> > Vacuum carpets.****
>
> > Sweep workshop floor.****
>
> > Empty bins.****
>
> > ** **
>
> > ** **
>
> > ** **
> > There would be no expectation that any materials/heavy stuff/tools etc.
> > should be moved or tidied. An hour and a half twice a week should be
>
> > --- On *Wed, 10/8/11, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk>* wrote:****
> > From: Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Cleaner
> > To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Wednesday, 10 August, 2011, 18:08****
>
> > I'd like to note that we're talking about two types of cleaning here:
>
> > 1) Cleaning which can be done by an external cleaner. This is tedious,
> > regular stuff like hoovering and cleaning toilets. Everyone *can* do
> > it, but nobody wants to, really.
>
> > 2) Tidying up tools, maintaining machines, etc. We can't really get
> > people in to do this, and this is the bit that I'd rather spend time
> > trying to encourage people to do.
>
> > Personally, I think we should pay for 1 so we have more time to spend on 2.
>
> > --
> > Russ Garrett
> > %3A%2F%- î
>
> > This email was scanned by VIPRE version 4.0.3904 when it was received,
Earthshine
Arduino Workshop this weekend and finding the space in an
embarrassingly disgusting state. Apart from the Quiet Room which was
(reasonably) clean thanks to Sam and Jasper, the rest of the space was
a disgusting festering shithole.
We had 8 new people who had never seen the space before turn up for
the course and apart from having to try and explain why someone has
appeared to have set up permanent residence in the corner, the kitchen
area was again covered in left over food and spilled drinks. I didn't
have time to clean it up and make it looked decent so had to apologise
to everyone about the mess and ask them to step around the pair of
bare feet sticking out underneath a desk to get the milk out of the
fridge. The carpet was in a disgusting state with what looked like an
entire bag of crisps that had been dropped on the floor and then
walked into the carpet and the rest of the space was just
embarrassing.
If we get any new members out of this course it will be a miracle as I
doubt any of them would want to come back.
So, a definite +1 from me for a cleaner, and can we please make sure
they carry body bags as well as black bags?
Mike
Darren McDonald
Robert Leverington
take a few more weeks.
Robert
Sam Cook
hamish campbell
Glen
membership, a Hackspace member should be less lightly to throw out
something expensive that looks like rubbish.
Glen
Robert Leverington
No member has offered us their paid cleaning services.
Robert
Billy
I've thought about it on more than one occasion, but i've been
reluctant to go for this job.
I did this at one rehearsal studio i helped set up. The attitude
became, "It doesn't matter if we make a mess, Billy'll clean it
up..."
There were two problems there. 1. They made more mess than they
normally would. and 2. It changed the attitude they had towards me.
We shouldn't need this.
Yes, Mike, there was a mess on Saturday morning. We've got a camera
record. Who made the mess, and why hasn't someone given them a
bollocking.?