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ioAlan  
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 More options May 4 2012, 8:09 am
From: ioAlan <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 05:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Fri, May 4 2012 8:09 am
Subject: wireless hack for smart phone
Hi lhs hackers. I run a software dev Co. called ioWorld and have a
project requiring a hardware hack that's outside the scope of my
capabilities; I want to create a wireless fob that a smart phone
(Android, to start with) can detect at approx. 100 cm. Any protocol
(inc. Bluetooth) will be ok for the POC/prototype but there is a
strong commercial application for this tech, so ultimately a lo-power
protocol will be preferable.

If you've hacked something similar previously, or know anyone else
that has, I'd be grateful to hear from you and give you all the
details. Please contact me at either: a...@ioWorld.com or on
07930667390


 
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Toby Catlin  
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 More options May 4 2012, 9:00 am
From: Toby Catlin <t...@korfball.com>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:00:13 +0100
Local: Fri, May 4 2012 9:00 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Any kind of phone?
NFC sounds like a solution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication

Problem is there aren't many phones that support it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFC_enabled_handsets

t

On 4 May 2012 13:09, ioAlan <alanhod...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Mark Steward  
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 More options May 4 2012, 9:01 am
From: Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:01:28 +0100
Local: Fri, May 4 2012 9:01 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

NFC won't travel 100cm without magic.  Unfortunately, Bluetooth is probably
the best bet, but security's something to consider.

Mark


 
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Toby Catlin  
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 More options May 4 2012, 9:04 am
From: Toby Catlin <t...@korfball.com>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:04 +0100
Local: Fri, May 4 2012 9:04 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

sorry i misread that to be 10cm

On 4 May 2012 14:01, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 8:03 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:03:40 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 8:03 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Hi - firstly apologies for taking so long to reply (my gmail account is not
my primary) - In answer to your question: yes, any type of smartphone but
for the sake of the prototype, I expect Android will probably be easiest.
As for protocols: will NFC work at 100cm if the fob is active?

Alan


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 8:08 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:08:38 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 8:08 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

I believe that your smartphone can be adapted to have NFC with a modified
SIM:

http://www.sdid.com/products1010.shtml

http://www.sdid.com/products1020.shtml

http://bit.ly/HSUvbW


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 8:10 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:10:49 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 8:10 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

will NFC work at 100cm if the fob is active?


 
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Jasper Wallace  
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 More options May 9 2012, 9:25 am
From: Jasper Wallace <jas...@pointless.net>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 14:25:07 +0100 (BST)
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 9:25 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

On Wed, 9 May 2012, alan hodes wrote:
> will NFC work at 100cm if the fob is active?

Almost certainly not.

Can the phone be activly scanning for the tag in some way? If so you could
use qrcodes and have the phones user point the phone at them.

--
[http://pointless.net/]                                   [0x2ECA0975]

 
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Nigel Worsley  
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 More options May 9 2012, 9:30 am
From: "Nigel Worsley" <nig...@googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 14:30:30 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 9:30 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

> I believe that your smartphone can be adapted to have NFC with a modified SIM:
> http://www.sdid.com/products1010.shtml
> http://www.sdid.com/products1020.shtml
> http://bit.ly/HSUvbW

Nope. The first two are based on full size SD cards, I rather doubt that any phone
using those is still made.

The third link refers to needing to get a new SIM to make use of the NFC hardware
that the phone already has.

If a phone doesn't have NFC built in then there is no convenient way to add it. For
the latest Android devices it should be possible to use USB to connect to an NFC
interface, but that is rather messy.

> will NFC work at 100cm if the fob is active?

Possibly, it depends on the allowable size of the tag as the antenna size has a big
effect on range. An RFID reader that I was working on a few years ago had about
5cm range with a keyfob and 10cm with a credit card sized tag. Using a 25cm
coil in the reader extended that to 30cm, active tags (which I didn't have available)
should do considerably better.

Nigel Worsley


 
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Dave Ingram  
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 More options May 9 2012, 9:38 am
From: Dave Ingram <d...@dmi.me.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 14:38:10 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone
On 09/05/12 14:25, Jasper Wallace wrote:
> On Wed, 9 May 2012, alan hodes wrote:

>> will NFC work at 100cm if the fob is active?
> Almost certainly not.

> Can the phone be activly scanning for the tag in some way? If so you could
> use qrcodes and have the phones user point the phone at them.

That sounds very battery-intensive, so wouldn't seem to suit the OP's
low-power requirement -- also not hugely effective at 100cm distance
without large codes :-)

D


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 9:38 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 14:38:53 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

I expect then battery life in the fob could be an issue if boosted to circa
100cm range? In any case, if you're interested in this, would you like to
see the full spec and the intended application for the use of this tech?


 
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Mark Steward  
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 More options May 9 2012, 9:52 am
From: Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 14:52:44 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Use Bluetooth.  It comes built into phones, and is designed for low power.
 If you really want to make something, use Zigbee.

Mark


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:08 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:08:37 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:08 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Does  Zigbee need to be installed on a smartphone or is it something that
they already have? I've looked up what  Zigbee is, and from the description
(low power, short range, secure etc) it would seem ideal for the intended
application.


 
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Mark Steward  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:21 am
From: Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:21:43 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:21 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Zigbee's a lower power and simpler protocol to Bluetooth - it's more suited
to simple sensors than, say phones or computers.  Phones don't speak it,
though, so you'll need to build a device that can interface directly with
the phone (SD card/audio socket/Bluetooth) as well as a corresponding
Zigbee board on the fob.

Mark


 
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tom  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:26 am
From: tom <bollocks...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 07:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:26 am
Subject: Re: wireless hack for smart phone

I'd go with bluetooth, we found some cheap 3.3v modules on ebay a while
back, i think they were about 6 quid each in total


 
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Toby Catlin  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:28 am
From: Toby Catlin <t...@korfball.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:28:41 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:28 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: wireless hack for smart phone

oooh I wanted to make some small magnetic bluetooth temperature sensors but
was put off by the price of arduino bluetooth shields. Do you have a link
for anymore?
thanks
toby

On 9 May 2012 15:26, tom <bollocks...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Mark Steward  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:31 am
From: Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:31:11 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:31 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: wireless hack for smart phone

These?
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/wireless-bluetooth-rs232-ttl-transceiver...

Mark


 
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Mark Steward  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:36 am
From: Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:36:35 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:36 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: wireless hack for smart phone

Either make your own breakout:

  http://www.flickr.com/photos/fucksocks/5752228871/in/photostream

Or pay a little extra to get a header board:

  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300696517759

Mark


 
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Nicholas FitzRoy-Dale  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:41 am
From: Nicholas FitzRoy-Dale <wzdd.google.gro...@lardcave.net>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:41:10 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:41 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

I've used those. They work well, and can be used without a breakout (you just need rx, tx, vss and vdd -- the hardest part was making a voltage divider for tx on an otherwise 5v circuit).

Nicholas

On 9 May 2012, at 15:31, Mark Steward wrote:


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 10:44 am
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:44:46 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 10:44 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

As good as the protocol seems, it sounds too complex - at least for the
sake of building a prototype.


 
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Nigel Worsley  
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 More options May 9 2012, 11:25 am
From: "Nigel Worsley" <nig...@googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:25:03 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 11:25 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

> I expect then battery life in the fob could be an issue if boosted to circa 100cm range?

Possibly, but not necessarily. All the tag needs to do most of the time is listen for a carrier,
the main receiver can then be powered up to see if there is any real data being sent. If so,
send the appropriate reply and wait for the reader to disappear before going back to sleep.

> In any case, if you're interested in this, would you like to see the full spec and the
> intended application for the use of this tech?

Yes please, that would make it much easier to suggest the right solution.

Nigle


 
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Nigel Worsley  
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 More options May 9 2012, 11:28 am
From: "Nigel Worsley" <nig...@googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:28:46 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 11:28 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

>> Zigbee's a lower power and simpler protocol to Bluetooth
> As good as the protocol seems, it sounds too complex - at least for the sake of building a prototype.

It is, simpler than Bluetooth isn't the same thing as simple! The underlying radio format is IEEE 802.15.4
which does almost all of what you will need for just getting the ID of a tag. Range is a bit naff, but
that is probably an advantage for your application.

Nigle


 
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alan hodes  
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 More options May 9 2012, 12:35 pm
From: alan hodes <alanhod...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 17:35:57 +0100
Local: Wed, May 9 2012 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

I'll contact you off-group


 
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Aaron Oliver-Taylor  
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 More options May 10 2012, 3:07 am
From: Aaron Oliver-Taylor <aaron.oliver.tay...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 08:07:25 +0100
Local: Thurs, May 10 2012 3:07 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone

Hello hackers,

I have two suggestions regarding this that will permit close range
proximity measurements, the first is to use an audible tone, and the second
is a simple, RF transmitter/receiver pair operating on one of the lower ISM
bands such as the one around 433MHz.  In the first case a [reasonably] high
pitched sound could be emitted by the fob (high enough as to be quite
unnoticable), just loud enough to be detected with a smartphone's
microphone within 1m.  This would only really work in the open air though.
 The second option would require some specialist hardware - the simplest,
most compatible way would be to downmix the RF carrier to an audio
frequency voltage, which is then sampled by the microphone jack.  Once
again the power of the RF transmitter could be titrated so that it only
works over a few metres, and because there is an inverse square law for EM
signals the distance could probably be quite accurately judged.  The
advantages of using 433MHz are that the power requirements are much lower
than 2.4GHz (lower frequency EM waves carry/require less energy), and they
generally penetrate walls etc far better.  You could even have the
transmitting dongle send a series of bytes to identify itself every so
often (for example every 10 seconds), and track multiple devices with the
same receiver.

Aaron
*__________________________________________
Aaron Oliver-Taylor
Email: aaron.oliver.tay...@gmail.com
Web: aayotee.wordpress.com*


 
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Adrian Godwin  
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 More options May 10 2012, 3:34 am
From: Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 08:34:08 +0100
Local: Thurs, May 10 2012 3:34 am
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] wireless hack for smart phone
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Aaron Oliver-Taylor

The problem you'll have with this (as I've found with some commercial
medium-range RFID tags) is that attenuation of RF is predictable in
free space but affected hugely by solid bodies. So it's difficult to
distinguish between a tag that's out of range and one that's in range
but on the wrong side of the wearer's body.

Depending on your application, you might be able to get around this by
noting the occasional glimpses of a nearby (but shielded) tag, but
this makes low power difficult as you need to scan often.

-adrian


 
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