The sleepers are back...
Mark Steward
... and unsurprisingly, they're not Occupiers, they're the Hackspace regulars who were sleeping as a habit before it became trendy.
Last night 4 people decided to sleep at the space, instead of going home:
- Phil, who also came to the space to nap the night before, and slept 7 hours on Saturday night. Phil has promised not to sleep in the space, and understands that the trustees should set an example.
- Billy, who mentioned it on IRC, and said he would try not to again
- Sam and friend, who were still cuddled up on the lobby sofa at time of writing
I also woke Morris on Tuesday, who had settled down on the sofa with his shoes off, seemingly to watch a movie.
None of these sleepers emailed the list to explain that their buses had been cancelled or their flats were flooded. They have all slept in the space repeatedly before.
More of a worry than premeditated sleeping is that Billy claimed to be too tired to cycle home, and Morris passed out on the sofa. Zombified half-sleepers are a danger in a communal workshop. We need a culture of safe working, and working beyond your limits causes broken tools and people.
This is a group problem. If you see any regular sleepers at the space after 1am, please urge them to go home. "Other people sleep at the space" is not an excuse, nor is "I'm just napping". We've been forced to make it a black-and-white rule[1] because sleeping encourages others to do the same.
Cheers,
Mark
[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/london-hack-space/L3imPexvHpQ
Gausie
here?
I'm sorry but some transgressions will not stand.
Gausie
Kal
causes broken tools and people"
as possible.
tom
open.
FFS
tom
Lets replace the sofas with some bar-style standup tables, it gives a
nice social area, a bit more space and someewhere to eat pizza on a
tuesday :)
Tom Scott
(Also, I suggest a foghorn that sounds once an hour between 2am and 7am.)
-- Tom
Nick Bradbeer
I suspect the foghorn would give us an interesting accident record (why do all your industrial accidents occur at exactly 17 minutes past the hour?)
Nick
Elliot West
- Elliot
Adrian Godwin
Sam and girlfriend drowsing on sofas. now up.
Kitchen contained many dirty plates. Found 2 bags of takeaway rubbish
in workshop and entrance hall.
3-in-1 left switched on (key removed but estop not operated).
AlisonW
AlisonW
Sam Cook
Mat Burnham
Pneumatics to tip the sofas every hour unless significant movement is detected?
Peter Hicks
>
> Pneumatics to tip the sofas every hour unless significant movement is
> detected?
>
I am in favour of removing the sofas - it neatly removes a comfortable
place in which people can zone out and "forget" they're in a communal
environment with the need to respect others around them.
Poggs
Akki
tom
hopefully if people keep circumventing attempts to stop them doing
this for long enough people my sit up and say "hey, stop being a
dick!"
Tim Storey
Ah well, back to the bike shedding, I think green is the correct problem...
Sent via two cans and a bit of string
Adrian Godwin
that cannot be left on with the key removed.
However, I think the access control boxes will solve it. I'm not sure
of the switchoff strategy (does the card have to be left in place ?)
but I'd imagine it could at worst time out.
-adrian
Matt Platts
Jim MacArthur
If I'm working at the space over the weekend, being able to sleep on
the floor would save me 5 hours of hacking time. I suspect there are
plenty of other people who would like to be able to take advantage of
sleeping at the space as well, and that's why it must be prohibited.
Amir Taaki
make the hackspace fun - not you little dirtbags who I've never met!
It's not like they're camping there. Stop acting like jealous bitches.
You're a bunch of odious creepy fascists. Should this get worse, I
will quit the hackspace and never come back.
Adrian Godwin
No, they're not camping there.
Can you suggest a good way of distinguishing between
not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
-adrian
t...@christwithfries.net
Steff
Well, if nothing else I think we now have a high-water-mark data point
for ad-hominem insults per paragraph on the list.
I'm tempted to advise not allowing the door to hit your arse on the
way out, but I won't because:
a) It'd be unnecessarily uncivil.
b) That sort of thing is for the community to decide (as the
no-sleeping rule was).
I hope you take my point.
S
Nin Lil'izi
These are people who seem to be putting in crazy hours upgrading and maintenencing the space.
Nin lil'izi
Skype: Nin-lil-izi
Help me stay fed, order a certain and enevitable demise off me today!
GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622
Amir Taaki
> not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
> unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
- Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
on people. It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
criminalise users of the space.
- The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
the rules. Not the internet police.
Adrian Godwin
Tim Reynolds
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people. It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
Whereas breaking the rules of the space is not anti-social in the
slightest. No one is being criminalised, they're just being caught
breaking the rules that they are well aware of.
> - The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
> the rules. Not the internet police.
This whole irc/internet thing is very tired. The vast majority of the
people pissed off with sleeping use the space a lot too. Why are they
marginalised because they're talking about it on IRC or the mailing list?
Charles Yarnold
Nick Bradbeer
Two step plan:
- Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
on people. It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
criminalise users of the space.
Why would anyone have an expectation of privacy in the space?
- The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
the rules. Not the internet police.
So you don't want the rules changed, just selectively enforced?
Nick
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 12:08, Nick Bradbeer wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Amir Taaki <gen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people. It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
>
> Why would anyone have an expectation of privacy in the space?
I expect to have a certain amount of privacy in the space, because I see it as not being a public area. Maybe "da management" would be able to give some information on the legal status of the space. Is it seen as a public or a private space?
BUT PLEASE can we not derail this thread into a privacy argument thread. For the love of [insert your chosen deity here]..
If it does, I will get very very sad.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Mark Steward
<nin-l...@phoenixhaven.net> wrote:
> He does have a good point.
> These are people who seem to be putting in crazy hours upgrading and
> maintenencing the space.
>
Billy and Phil certainly have done a lot for the space, which is why
we've repeatedly given them the benefit of the doubt (for better or
worse). But they're also not the only people maintaining the space,
and they're encouraging others to disregard the rules.
As we've said before, inviting sleeping may cause problems with our
lease (the land use is light industrial, not accommodation). It
encourages people to treat the space as a convenient crash space at
the cost of other activities, and it's now outright banned. For the
directors to turn a blind eye to this behaviour would be negligent in
my view.
Mark
Charles Yarnold
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 11:50, Amir Taaki wrote:
>> Can you suggest a good way of distinguishing between
>> not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
>> unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
>
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people.
Aren't all geeks anti-social? If people were willing to deal with this *in person, like the human beings were are supposed to be*, and not with (albeit entertaining) never-ending technical approaches, this issue would not be (as big an) issue.
> It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
You have a point but they are doing something that most people (it seems from mail threads) don't want them to do.
> - The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
> the rules. Not the internet police.
Again, true, but the points is *NO ONE IN THE SPACE IS DOING THIS*, for a multiple of reasons, which have been documented in previous mail threads. I'd suggest you go and read them.
Alot of people seem pissed off with the sleepers, but are not willing to confront the issue face-on - not wanting confrontation, feeling bad, scared etc.
Personally I don't see whats so hard to say to people cop-the-fark-on, and stop sleeping in the farking space, and using the proverbial or literal baseball bat when needed...
PS: You sounded like a c0k in your first e-mail. It's not the best way to have a discussion, but a great way to increase the animosity. If in fact you wanted to sound like a c0k, then way to go.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Nick Bradbeer
I expect to have a certain amount of privacy in the space, because I see it as not being a public area. Maybe "da management" would be able to give some information on the legal status of the space. Is it seen as a public or a private space?
BUT PLEASE can we not derail this thread into a privacy argument thread. For the love of [insert your chosen deity here]
Sorry - you're quite right. That's a discussion for some other time.
Nick
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
Thanks Charles. That was my understanding also. Privacy discussion ended.
If someone wants to open a seperate thread on the use of the camera, I'd be happy to rant there for a while.
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tom
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
After a spending 3.4 seconds on the ole Googles, apparently he is this young chap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Taaki
But I could be wrong.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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tom
i'm in the space a lot and have no idea who he is.
we shouldnt see "doing awesome things for the space" as some sort of
nectar card point scheme that can be redeemed for rule breakages.
Plenty of people are pissed off at the sleeping situation, enough to
change the rules in fact. Now people are wilfully ignoring them i
think its time to introduce the banhammer
On Feb 26, 12:38 pm, EI8FDB <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After a spending 3.4 seconds on the ole Googles, apparently he is this young chap:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Taaki
>
> But I could be wrong.
>
> On 26 Feb 2012, at 12:32, tom wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, who are you?
>
> > On Feb 26, 11:33 am, Amir Taaki <gen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> You're all absolute cunts. Billy, Morris and Phil are the people who
> >> make the hackspace fun - not you little dirtbags who I've never met!
> >> It's not like they're camping there. Stop acting like jealous bitches.
>
> >> You're a bunch of odious creepy fascists. Should this get worse, I
> >> will quit the hackspace and never come back.
>
> =====
> Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
> IO91XM /www.ei8fdb.org
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin)
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 11:50, Amir Taaki wrote:
>> Can you suggest a good way of distinguishing between
>> not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
>> unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
>
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people.
Aren't all geeks anti-social? If people were willing to deal with this *in person, like the human beings were are supposed to be*, and not with (albeit entertaining) never-ending technical approaches, this issue would not be (as big an) issue.
> It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
You have a point but they are doing something that most people (it seems from mail threads) don't want them to do.
> - The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
> the rules. Not the internet police.
Again, true, but the points is *NO ONE IN THE SPACE IS DOING THIS*, for a multiple of reasons, which have been documented in previous mail threads. I'd suggest you go and read them.
Alot of people seem pissed off with the sleepers, but are not willing to confront the issue face-on - not wanting confrontation, feeling bad, scared etc.
Personally I don't see whats so hard to say to people cop-the-fuck-on, and stop sleeping in the fcuking space, and using the proverbial or literal baseball bat when needed...
PS: You sounded like a cock in your first e-mail. It's not the best way to have a discussion, but a great way to increase the animosity. If in fact you wanted to sound like a cock, then way to go.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 11:50, Amir Taaki wrote:
>> Can you suggest a good way of distinguishing between
>> not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
>> unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
>
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people.
Aren't all geeks anti-social? If people were willing to deal with this *in person, like the human beings were are supposed to be*, and not with (albeit entertaining) never-ending technical approaches, this issue would not be (as big an) issue.
> It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
You have a point but they are doing something that most people (it seems from mail threads) don't want them to do.
> - The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
> the rules. Not the internet police.
Again, true, but the points is *NO ONE IN THE SPACE IS DOING THIS*, for a multiple of reasons, which have been documented in previous mail threads. I'd suggest you go and read them.
Alot of people seem pissed off with the sleepers, but are not willing to confront the issue face-on - not wanting confrontation, feeling bad, scared etc.
Personally I don't see whats so hard to say to people cop-the-fuck-on, and stop sleeping in the fcuking space, and using the proverbial or literal baseball bat when needed...
PS: You sounded like a cock in your first e-mail. It's not the best way to have a discussion, but a great way to increase the animosity. way to go.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Mark Steward
moderating them.
Mark
Nigel Worsley
> You're all absolute cunts.
We aren't, you are.
> Billy, Morris and Phil are the people who make the hackspace fun
And that gives them the right to ignore the rules?
> It's not like they're camping there
They have all done this in the past, which is what started the whole debate in the first place.
> You're a bunch of odious creepy fascists. Should this get worse, I will quit the hackspace and never come back.
You aren't even a member, so I don't see how this comment is in any way relevant.
Nigle
Glen
Space is in a self destructive spiral of death. If the Space wants to
reinvent itself itself can it be a proper business with staff that
keep the tools working?
James Broadhead
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After a spending 3.4 seconds on the ole Googles, apparently he is this young chap:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Taaki
>
> But I could be wrong.
I'm very tempted to add
"He is an active and enthusiastic member of the London Hackspace
Community <cite="http://groups.google.com/group/london-hack-space/msg/daf01541e8528c40"
/>"
Nicholas FitzRoy-Dale
vein.
Nicholas
tom
> keep the tools working?
As Amir just demonstrated, we have enough working Tools already.
James Broadhead
at some point? This would both allow for genuine unexpected
circumstances, and avoid the casual sleepers.
A possible implementation would involve something like a big yellow
"Sleeper" sticker, which would be purchasable for ~£30(+?).
People sleeping without a sticker could be photographed /
screenshotted on the webcams, and send an email requesting the
donation. The nice thing would be that it would
- Identify people who have actually announced that they plan on
sleeping, rather than just taking advantage
- Allow members around the sleeper to pro-actively police the rule
without directly waking the person and starting an argument
(reluctance to do this seems to be the major problem with the rules at
present)
Perhaps this has been suggested before, or there are problems I'm not seeing.
Adrian Godwin
<jamesbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> - Allow members around the sleeper to pro-actively police the rule
> without directly waking the person and starting an argument
> (reluctance to do this seems to be the major problem with the rules at
> present)
This has been stated before but is partly fictitious. Some sleepers
will not wake up easily. Argument or not, they're still disrespecting
the other members. Pressing the point will rapidly lead to physical
violence, recommended only in jest.
-adrian
Glen
> Has the idea of mandating a significant donation-per-sleep been raised
> at some point? This would both allow for genuine unexpected
> circumstances, and avoid the casual sleepers.
raises a few mayor problems, which we couldn't just ignore if there's
a page on our website the council can point at as they fine us.
What's getting to me is that most of my visits to the Hackspace have
been a waste of time as the tools I wanted to use were broken or bits
were missing. Where there should be management there's bitching.
People are put of reporting problems as they get called feckless and
told to fix problems their-self.
Martin Dittus
On 26 Feb 2012, at 15:57, Glen wrote:
> From reading the mailing list you might get the impression that the
> Space is in a self destructive spiral of death.
I actually disagree.
We've grown to a size that now requires us to renegotiate some of our earliest assumptions. In the past we could afford to live with many ambiguities that are no longer practical. We're slowly finding out how to enforce boundaries without having to rely on expensive staff. I think these pains are worth having if they allow us to grow our community structure even further without having to become exclusionary (in economic or other terms.)
The London Hackspace is a very particular kind of hackerspace, I have not yet heard of any other one just like it. We're the biggest local hackerspace in terms of paying members; and we're one of the few (if not the only at our size) without any strong central coordination. Partially this is a result of the economic realities of London's rent; but partially it's also a demonstration of the success of the spirit in which it was founded. "The community governs itself."
To me, not having paid staff was always part of the point behind our structure, it's a worthy ambition. Making it work is tricky, partially because there aren't really any good contemporary precedents. (But it's also worth pointing out that it's not a dogma; e.g. after long discussions we finally agreed to pay a cleaner.)
I've been very happy with this email thread in particular. The responses from a diverse group of people (old and new) have been constructive and polite, even when provoked by Amir's emotional response.
(Sorry to be off-topic, am simply hoping to add some context for newcomers.)
m.
Katie Sutton
> You're all absolute cunts. Billy, Morris and Phil are the people who
> make the hackspace fun - not you little dirtbags who I've never met!
> It's not like they're camping there. Stop acting like jealous bitches.
>
> You're a bunch of odious creepy fascists. Should this get worse, I
> will quit the hackspace and never come back.
Based off this email, good riddance.
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Amir Taaki
presence of the cameras to be invasive and ugly. I was told how
there's a large contingent of people on this mailing list who never
actually go to the hackerspace.
So Morris fell asleep on the sofa. Big deal. Someone came and woke him
up, and we sat and were chatting. What was really sickening was that
everytime I'd look up, I'd see a camera pointed at my face monitoring
my behaviour to make sure I don't sleep. It's really creepy how people
sit up all night monitoring the cameras to make sure people don't
sleep. It's really weird how people camp out on these mailing lists/
IRC without going in person to resolve issues like human beings.
There was a discussion in the hackerspace with samthetechie, morris,
phil, miguel and others that night. Everyone hates their presence. It
is totally different matter to have a public space, and a public space
which is monitored by unseen guardians. The latter feels totally
Machaellivian and sinister. It was causing arguments and fights while
I was there.
What you are seeing emerging is a we (people in hackspace) vs them
(people on mailing list). Maybe my first email was a little over the
top, but it was an emotional outburst at some ugly behaviour name-
calling some truly great hackspace members I respect. Morris is very
cool and contributes a lot of money, food. Billy is smart and does a
lot of work/bringing in material. I have no respect for people who are
not man enough to go and speak to people, instead sneaking around on
mailing lists.
Anyway, that's my view. The people in the space who are there the
most, and actually running it should get the say. I don't hold a
membership card perse, but I do drop money in the pot and try to
contribute when I can. My time is limited, but I always if in London +
I have time try to make it there and be around to help people learn or
show them around. I like the space because of its informal community
attitude. Issues are resolved on the spot, not with frameworks,
dominance hierarchies or mob-rule. As a sometimes squatter, it's not
about finding the right rules or processes but finding the right
attitudes and growing your personality to function in groups.
I felt I should explain rather than leave you all hanging. But now the
info is there.
Adrian Godwin
poll before drawing any conclusions.
-adrian
tom
> lot of work/bringing in material. I have no respect for people who are
> not man enough to go and speak to people, instead sneaking around on
> mailing lists.
contribute to some point system that allows you to abuse the space
later on. If that were the case Jonty would possess enough to punch
each and everyone of us in the cock a million times over.
Sam Kelly
previously known to be biased, about a self-selecting alleged survey,
spiced with unquestioned and arguably paranoid assumptions, and
attempting to be unpleasantly divisive in an interesting new(ish)
iteration of "the lurkers support me in email".
I call troll.
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/
That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger
dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
Charles Yarnold
Akki
be asleep in the first place. It's not a sleeping space. Why is this
difficult to understand?
I also go to the Space at least once a week, usually 2-3 times a week.
Unless you are monitoring the space 24/7, I don't know, by cameras or
something, you don't really have a right to say who is or isn't an
active member in the physical Space.
~Akki
Sam Cook
Amir, what you have there is a self-selecting survey. Take a wider
poll before drawing any conclusions.
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 17:37, Sam Cook wrote:
> There have been MANY debates over the cams and so far the consensus seems to be that members-only access is the way forward.
>
I agree with this approach.
But can we a) get the data from them destroyed after a resonable amount of time? I understand the data is stored on lovelace? (maybe I am wrong) Does anyone have access to that machine?
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Charles Yarnold
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
Stand corrected! Thank you Charles.
And how often are the still images purged?
I might try and stick a page on the wiki to document that if there is not one there already...
On 26 Feb 2012, at 17:46, Charles Yarnold wrote:
> The data is on babbage, only members can get accounts to babbage.
>
> On 26 February 2012 17:43, EI8FDB <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On 26 Feb 2012, at 17:37, Sam Cook wrote:
>
> > There have been MANY debates over the cams and so far the consensus seems to be that members-only access is the way forward.
> >
>
> I agree with this approach.
>
> But can we a) get the data from them destroyed after a resonable amount of time? I understand the data is stored on lovelace? (maybe I am wrong) Does anyone have access to that machine?
>
>
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Russ Garrett
> And how often are the still images purged?
Currently never, but we really should change that. I don't think
there's reason to keep them for more than a week or two.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Charles Yarnold
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
On 26 Feb 2012, at 18:04, Russ Garrett wrote:
> On 26 February 2012 17:48, EI8FDB <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:
>> And how often are the still images purged?
>
> Currently never, but we really should change that. I don't think
> there's reason to keep them for more than a week or two.
>
Good to hear Russ. This makes sense.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Adrian Godwin
<charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be nice to have time lapses just because they are cool to watch.
>
> Could this be workable by maybe making them (even more than the bad quality
> they are now) blurred or restricted to members only still?
>
> Charles
>
Can you have motion blur (since faces are invisible anyway unless you
freezeframe) rather than blurry everything ? bad focus is just
irritating.
-adrian
Charles Yarnold
phil jones
tom
and we'll let this stand :)
On Feb 26, 8:00 pm, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.quora.com/What-famous-scientists-and-engineers-have-habitu...
Adrian Godwin
> This morning's status, 10:30.
>
> Sam and girlfriend drowsing on sofas. now up.
>
>
Samthetechie informs me I have misunderstood the relationship. I
apologise for the assumption.
-adrian
HaywardGB
watching a movie catching up with Calum. When I was bothered not
once, but 3 times and asked if I was sleeping. I even came onto IRC
and spoke directly to Mark telling him the situation, but he ignored
me and has done this passive-aggressive bullshit on more than one
occasion (he'll deny it, as always). There was a time when I used to
stay behind and clean up, ALL THE TIME, so grabbing a couple hours kip
wasn't much to ask. I also have a medical condition that makes me
overly tired at random times (i'll get my doctor to write me a note if
you like!), and the medication I'm on adds to that sleepiness, so it's
not fair that I can't close my eyes every hour or so for 15-30 minutes
and not get prodded (even when I told several people about this at the
space, those people are still the ones giving me a hard time about
it). Plus since I've stopped helping out cleaning up at the space it
has become a complete shit hole, and while we worry about people
napping, can I divert your attention to a more serious health and
safety problem, called hygiene!
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you've oversold the place,
there's to many members, that's the problem here, not the sleepers..
The nature of hacking, programming, developing, etc is that you do
spend long nights on a project and you will need to grab a few hours
sleep in between. I've not worked at a single development agency
where the programmers don't at some time or other during the month
sleep under their tables, it's the nature of the beast..
You can't move in the space lately without being monitored, tagged and
highlighted.. it's worse than the bloody big brother system outside!
samthetechie
would add that destroying the cameras is just a waste of good
electronics. We should not use them to spy on each other though. That
shit gives me the creeps these days. #london_policestate_hackspace
1984 was not an instruction manual
On Feb 26, 11:50 am, Amir Taaki <gen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Can you suggest a good way of distinguishing between
> > not-camping-but-sleeping and all-but-camping ? A way that's fair and
> > unsubjective and unambiguous and easily operated ?
>
> Two step plan:
> - Destroy the surveillance cameras to stop anti-social weirdos spying
> on people. It's a gross intrusion of privacy that is being used to
> criminalise users of the space.
> - The people using the space should decide to enforce or not enforce
> the rules. Not the internet police.
Russ Garrett
> Plus since I've stopped helping out cleaning up at the space it
> has become a complete shit hole, and while we worry about people
> napping, can I divert your attention to a more serious health and
> safety problem, called hygiene!
I'd say dying in a fire while you're asleep is a relatively serious
health and safety problem, all things considered.
This witch-hunting *sucks*, it really does, but it's only happening
because people have been constantly breaking the rules and annoying
everyone.
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, you've oversold the place,
> there's to many members, that's the problem here, not the sleepers..
Perhaps that's true, but what do we do about it? Raise the membership
fees? Put a cap on the number of members? I don't think either of
those are really in keeping with the Hackspace philosophy. I'd like to
find a bigger space but we don't really have enough money.
I don't think this is due to the number of members. The people who are
sleeping in the space are a small subset of the membership, and most
of them have been around for quite a while.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk