New space?
Robert Leverington
When we become a charity we will become eligible for both an 80%
mandatory rates discount from the council, and for Gift Aid (which will
essentially increase by 20% all subscription amounts greater than �5 by
members who pay UK income tax). Additionally I would expect growth to
continue at the same, if not a higher rate that we have seen over the
past 12 months since we moved in to Cremer Street.
Combined we will hopefully see an increase in recurring revenue from the
current level of �4,800/month to around �6,000/month.
Cash on hand has also been a significant concern. Our lease requires
three months notice in order to break, giving us ample time to build this
up.
This expected increase in revenue gives us a great opportunity to re-
evaluate our current location. Especially as the new access control
arrangements are very inconvenient for our purposes, and within the
business centre itself we are limited in terms of expansion as both units
either side of ours' are occupied. Importantly however, our current
situation is stable so we are in no hurry to find a new space - giving us
a good chance to perform a thorough search. (Although I believe it was
an excellent choice and has enabled the hackspace to flourish, Cremer
Street ultimately chosen with extreme haste due to the circumstances at
the time.)
I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
transport network.
Therefore, I would like to propose that we at least consider the
possibility of moving location in the short-term future.
I would suggest the following requirements, based on those we used for
the search last year:
- At least 3000 sqft,
- In Zone 1,
- B1 or B2 use class,
- Price less than �70,000/year (inc. service charge & VAT)
- No more than 0.5 miles to a tube station
Our budget would give us much greater flexibility than last year,
enabling us to look at properties charging as much as �20/sqft./annum.
Other issues are:
Leaving Cremer Street:
We need to return the two units to how they were when we arrived, this
will require quite a bit of work.
Moving itself:
Last time we did this it took a day to move all our stuff from an 800
sqft. space to Cremer Street, not including packing. This will be an
enormous task, and will take at least an entire weekend. It will also
see some of our main equipment offline for a short while.
Build-out of the new space:
There's no guarentee that any location we find will have all the
ammenities we need, so it's likely we'll have to budget for things such
as fitting the kitchen, installing partitions, installing new flooring.
Fortunatley we should have a decent level of cash on hand.
Potential for new features:
The right space could allow us to run things such as a permanent licensed
bar, which could be a boon to the hackspace and also increase our
revenue.
What does everyone think?
Robert
Philippe Bradley
> I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
> London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
> are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
> get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
> transport network.
It would be interesting to support this assumption with data; perhaps
a 'pins on the map' way of letting people show where they reside and
where they are during the day, and maybe having an algo figure out
optimal spots based on that data?
Russ Garrett
> It would be interesting to support this assumption with data; perhaps
> a 'pins on the map' way of letting people show where they reside and
> where they are during the day, and maybe having an algo figure out
> optimal spots based on that data?
We did this before and concluded that hackers are evenly spread out
around London. Therefore, the closer the space is to the centre, the
closer it is to everyone.
Obviously, existing members are more likely to live closer to the
space. So if you do it based on membership data, you have a positive
feedback loop.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Elliot West
We did this before and concluded that hackers are evenly spread outaround London. Therefore, the closer the space is to the centre, the
closer it is to everyone.
Robert Leverington
We can plot this from the address data in the membership list (of course
we wouldn't be able to publish this directly though), I think Russ did
something similar when we applied for a rates discount to Hackney
council.
In any case, I don't think we will have a huge amount of choice over the
location itself. While we would be able to broadly pick an area we want
the space to be, suitable properties are so few and far between that
there is very little flexibility. The only reason we are in Hoxton
right now for example, is because it was the *only* option we had after
2-3 months searching.
Robert
Adrian Godwin
>
> What does everyone think?
>
Horrible to contemplate, but good to start putting together research
now rather than at some urgent time in the future. Availability of
premises, though, is always going to be a bit transient. If we
bikeshed the idea to death we run a danger of specifying the
replacement too tightly to permit anywhere to match.
It seems wise to have an idea of how long we'll be in Cremer St. It's
disheartening to consider projects like the kitchen if we feel we're
only there temporarily, but at the same time it helps us make sensible
decisions about how much cost and effort should be put into such
projects.
Wiki pages listing good/bad features of the existing space, wishlists
etc. would seem a good move. Perhaps they could be scored to allow
prioritisation.
There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.
-adrian
Alec Wright
> There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
> possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
> geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
> staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
> etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.
>
> -adrian
Just my 2p: I wouldn't really be in favour of having more than one
space, since it would be a nuisance having to go between one and the
other: what if you're doing a project which involves things at both of
the spaces? Also, I don't know if I'm getting a bit to philosophical
here and talking nonsense, but wouldn't that break up our "community" a
bit? What I like about the 'space is that if you're a complete noob at
something, there'll often be someone around who's an expert and will be
happy to help you out. And in return, there's always someone who will be
eager for you to share your skills with them.
Robert Leverington
> It seems wise to have an idea of how long we'll be in Cremer St. It's
> disheartening to consider projects like the kitchen if we feel we're
> only there temporarily, but at the same time it helps us make sensible
> decisions about how much cost and effort should be put into such
> projects.
One thing to consider is that we will always have at least 3 more months
left in Cremer Street until we make the decision where to move, as that
is the tennant break period in our lease. I think for most stuff that
is a reasonable period to feel it has been worthwhile. Also a lot of the
projects that are going on are things that we can take with us to a new
space.
> Wiki pages listing good/bad features of the existing space, wishlists
> etc. would seem a good move. Perhaps they could be scored to allow
> prioritisation.
Definitely, it will be very important to make sure that we are actually
benefitting by moving.
Comparing the various properties on offer will probably be fairly easy
as there will likely only be a handful that are even worth considering.
> There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
> possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
> geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
> staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
> etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.
I am skeptical about the idea of splitting up in to smaller spaces, it
also reduces the amount of flexibility we have in rearranging the space.
Economies of scale also benefit us in terms of volunteer time spent on
chores and infrastructure projects, which is fairly low already.
Robert
Katie Sutton
The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
cheaper trip. If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
scary boots
Alec Wright
> The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
> is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
> space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
> Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
> from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
> cheaper trip. If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
> very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.
>
centre: my oyster fare from finsbury park is 85p.
But if you live the other side (south london), you have to cross through
zone 1 and back out again, which i beleive is even more expensive than
just entering zone 1.
Katie Sutton
Depends which bit of south London; it's 85p for me, too, and I live in
Greenwich. North Greenwich > Canada Water > Hoxton doesn't touch Zone
1.
Entering Zone 1 is usually the same price as entering and going out
the other side for me...
Jonty Wareing
> Possibly relevant: UCL (WC1) wants to build a hackerspace in the next
> year or so (I seem to be involved in this). So there will be a tres
> central location, although one with some other organisational
> involvement.
Russ and I were originally asked to consult on this, and despite our
encouragement it seemed highly unlikely that the facilities would be
available to non-students. Frankly I think it best that we stay well
clear of this effort, as it is going to have quite different objectives.
--jonty
Adrian Godwin
>
> Just my 2p: I wouldn't really be in favour of having more than one
> space, since it would be a nuisance having to go between one and the
> other: what if you're doing a project which involves things at both of
> the spaces? Also, I don't know if I'm getting a bit to philosophical
> here and talking nonsense, but wouldn't that break up our "community" a
> bit? What I like about the 'space is that if you're a complete noob at
> something, there'll often be someone around who's an expert and will be
> happy to help you out. And in return, there's always someone who will be
> eager for you to share your skills with them.
>
On the face of it, I agree. I would not suggest splitting the current
space and community up. Nor, probably, the next one. But neither would
I suggest combining London, Birmingham, Nottingham etc. into one
space.
At 300 members and a catchment that's pretty much bounded by the N/S
circulars except for a few outliers (including you & me!), it works
fine.If you imagine 3000 members and a catchment covering chunks of
essex, herts and middlesex, it's less attractive.
Eventually, it will probably operate better with some sort of
subdivision and the social edge of london is not well defined. The
question is not if, but where the threshold lies.
-adrian
Russ Garrett
> The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
> is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
> space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
> Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
> from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
> cheaper trip. If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
> very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.
Yes, I agree. I believe our original criteria when we found Cremer
Street was zones 1 and 2. And we should keep that. The tube station
criterion is much more important, I think.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Alec Wright
Fair point, problem still stands with regards to transferring skills
though. I think if we had more than one space, they'd have to be general
purpose rather than, as you say, designed for specific purposes.
I know this is a bit of a long shot, but how many people are there here
from herts and nearby? I expect space is a lot cheaper round here, only
20-30 minutes out of london. Problem is though, even if you do live
nearby, transport is crap round here, and if you live in, say, hemel,
london is probably just as convenient as WGC (which is where I was
thinking) which would limit the catchment area to the east coast
mainline (hatfield, potters bar, barnet, southgate, islington,
stevenage, hitchin, letchworth, cambridge, peterborough) plus maybe
watford, st albans, hertford, luton, harpenden.
Nick Leaton
Nick
Russ Garrett
> though. I think if we had more than one space, they'd have to be general
> purpose rather than, as you say, designed for specific purposes.
Jonty and I have always suspected there's room for more than one
hackerspace in London.
That said, spaces are as much about community as they are about the
space. Splitting the London Hackspace community would be poisonous.
I'm excited about the economies of scale and new opportunities which
come with a larger space, and I believe that our group should only
ever be about one space. I'm thinking of putting something to that
effect in the new constitution.
We'll give all our assistance to another London-area hackerspace group
as long as we don't think the effort will be destructive to both
parties. I think in practise that means that we'll probably only
support groups outside the M25 or perhaps in the far south of London.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
scary boots
ad...@aden.org.uk
> London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
> are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
> get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
> transport network.
>
> Therefore, I would like to propose that we at least consider the
> possibility of moving location in the short-term future.
The current location is pretty good, zone 1 would make it equally
difficult for everyone to get to, would be lots more expensive, and
would attract more criminals and weirdos.
Maybe we should put a cap on the number of members rather than moving
somewhere bigger? Although the current place seems fine at the moment
in terms of space.
Aden
Mike
>
> Jonty and I have always suspected there's room for more than one
> hackerspace in London.
I would support that suspicion.
> That said, spaces are as much about community as they are about the
> space. Splitting the London Hackspace community would be poisonous.
> I'm excited about the economies of scale and new opportunities which
> come with a larger space, and I believe that our group should only
> ever be about one space. I'm thinking of putting something to that
> effect in the new constitution.
I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London? I think that
it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
the space. From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
(Ealing), I hate the location of the Space. It takes me an hour and a
half door to door. I attend once a week and that involves making a
right effort. I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
will be nearly midnight by the time I get home. I don't feel a part of
the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.
I do think that London could hapilly support North, East, South and West
HackSpaces. I don't think that it would be poisonous but I do think
that we need to be mindful that if we do ever do an East/West split that
we have to ensure that we have the critical mass to allow two spaces to
survive.
I think a Central London Hackspace would be a great idea but I can't see
it happening. Real estate will get exponentially more expesive, the
closter to Charring X we go. Conversly, member density will decrease
exponentially the further out you go. I think there will be a sweetspot
somewhere that allows us to get a good space, at a good price, with good
member numbers. On the downside, that all makes it inaccessible for
people not in the surrounding area.
> We'll give all our assistance to another London-area hackerspace group
> as long as we don't think the effort will be destructive to both
> parties. I think in practise that means that we'll probably only
> support groups outside the M25 or perhaps in the far south of London.
>
Mike.
danny staple
danny staple
Russ Garrett
> I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London? I think that
> it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
> the space. From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
> (Ealing), I hate the location of the Space. It takes me an hour and a
> half door to door. I attend once a week and that involves making a
> right effort. I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
> will be nearly midnight by the time I get home. I don't feel a part of
> the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.
I believe the correct term for this situation is "well volunteered".
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Lesley Binks
+1 also
I'm against splitting the existing hacker space at all.
My travel time to London Bridge by train is about 40 minutes - I can
get to Zone 6 to use an oyster card.
Then it's tube or bus to Cremer Street. - another 30 minutes or so?
Then I have to get back, and I don't commute in London so the total
travelling cost would be around £10 a trip.
I could cap that to £4 on my oyster card by getting the bus - at a
journey time of 2.5 hours - making it 5 hours travelling on the bus.
Which is a little unrealsitic.
If I was to ride over, google maps reckons around 50 minutes all told.
But I've viewed the local area using streetview and there doesn't
appear to be a motorcycle parking bay nearby at all.
Basically, the existing hackerspace is probably really great for the
area it is serving which is, as far as I can determine, the N/NE
London and Eastern Central parts of London.
I would be more than interested to set one up southside but I don't
have the capitalisation to bank roll it.
A west side hackerspace might well be even worse for me to get to.
--
Kind Regards
Lesley Binks
A: because it disrupts the normal flow of conversation.
Q: why is top-posting so annoying?
A: top-post reply.
Q: what's the most annoying thing you can do in email?
Mark Steward
If I was to ride over, google maps reckons around 50 minutes all told.
But I've viewed the local area using streetview and there doesn't
appear to be a motorcycle parking bay nearby at all.
Robert Leverington
> I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London? I think that
> it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
> the space. From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
> (Ealing), I hate the location of the Space. It takes me an hour and a
> half door to door. I attend once a week and that involves making a
> right effort. I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
> will be nearly midnight by the time I get home. I don't feel a part of
> the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.
>
> I do think that London could hapilly support North, East, South and West
> HackSpaces. I don't think that it would be poisonous but I do think
> that we need to be mindful that if we do ever do an East/West split that
> we have to ensure that we have the critical mass to allow two spaces to
> survive.
>
> I think a Central London Hackspace would be a great idea but I can't see
> it happening. Real estate will get exponentially more expesive, the
> closter to Charring X we go. Conversly, member density will decrease
> exponentially the further out you go. I think there will be a sweetspot
> somewhere that allows us to get a good space, at a good price, with good
> member numbers. On the downside, that all makes it inaccessible for
> people not in the surrounding area.
I think it's possible to find a good location that is easy to get to
from most of London.
A space in King's Cross, for example, would serve both North, East, and
West London fairly well.
Travel time to Ealing would be about 30 minutes, and less than half an
hour as far East as Stratford. It would also serve the North well, with
travel time from as far away as Luton under 30 minutes. It also has
lines extending deep in to South London.
Robert
Adrian Godwin
time rather than geographical distance ? I'm not sure if such a thing
could exist given that journey times don't necessarily obey the usual
additive rules of associativity and commutativity, but it would be
interesting to see an attempt.
-adrian
On 7/11/11, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
scary boots
Nigel Worsley
Not a lot of use:
"the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and
we�ll send you an invite when we�re ready."
There is a working site that provides these sort of maps, but I can't
seem to find it any more.
Nigle
Philippe Bradley
branches of the Northern (as well as trains in/out of Waterloo) plus
buses in abundance (and railway arches for the hackspace!). Or Oval -
Kennington Park in particular seems like it has some nice industrial
units.
Nigel Worsley
Wrong side of the river :-)
Nigle
Katie Sutton
For you, perhaps!
Peter Hicks
Is there such a thing as a map of London that's dimensioned by journey
time rather than geographical distance ? I'm not sure if such a thing
could exist given that journey times don't necessarily obey the usual
additive rules of associativity and commutativity, but it would be
interesting to see an attempt.
Peter
Martin Dittus
http://www.where-can-i-live.com/
On 11 Jul 2011, at 16:30, Nigel Worsley wrote:
>> As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/
>
> Not a lot of use:
> "the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."
Alex Smith
On 11 Jul 2011, at 16:30, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/
>
> Not a lot of use:
> "the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."
Sign up - a little birdy will make the invite appear.
Mark Steward
Not a lot of use:As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/
"the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."
Paul Dart
> Depends which bit of south London; it's 85p for me, too, and I live in
> Greenwich. North Greenwich > Canada Water > Hoxton doesn't touch Zone
> 1.
>
> Entering Zone 1 is usually the same price as entering and going out
> the other side for me...
You travel through Shoreditch High Street.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sdc/details.html
A zone 1 station*
*but there are some weird pricing details because there was a whole
argument about what zone to put it in. Google will tell you details.
For the record I think our current location of 'across the road from a
station' is the real selling point. Irrespective of what line/route it
is on. The old space was only 5/10 minutes walk from the overground
but it seemed much less convenient.
On this logic, I would much rather be somewhere like across the road
from Finsbury Park or Mile End, even though they are out in zone 2.
They have a couple of tube lines and plenty of buses.
So apart from becoming a holy war of 'At the moment I have to cross
the Sahara desert on the back of an eldely goat with no drinking water
uphill both ways. I want it 5 minutes from my house, that's the best
place EVA', are there any other points to be made?
Paul
Sam Cook
, are there any other points to be made?
Robert Leverington
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)
Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.
I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.
> b) What's our budget, both rent and for fit up personally if we get
> somewhere new I'd like us to fit it up fully before we move in (eg kitchen
> etc) so can we afford two places at once for at least 1 month?
Budget: �70,000 pa.
We will be running a surplus in the few months after becoming a charity,
so we should have a decent amount of cash in hand.
> c) What _exactly_ do we want; we all want it next door so we need specific
> arguments and evidence why it should be your door it's next to but what else
> do we want? Do we want a larger workshop? Separate wood/metal workshops? A
> full bio lab? Just a huge amount of office space? A huge fitted professional
> kitchen?
I originally suggested this because:
- we may be able to get somewhere with better access circumstances,
- our budget will be a lot more than it is now once we become a charity,
so we have an opportunity to get somewhere larger/in a better location.
> So can we please move on from "it should be here because...." to (if we must
> keep with it) "it should be here; on average it'll cost X we can get Y&Z and
> here's an example".
I agree, the number of suitable places for the hackspace is tiny, so
when we do find somewhere we might want to move to it will be a case of
"is this better than what we have now, and is it better than the other
options?"
Robert
Billy
pricing out places for the space. Note, this was before we opened 23.
I found one site in Bermondsey, that was nice. Large-ish warehouse/
industrial units, few minutes walk from the Bermondsey tube. Later
realised that it was run by the Workspace group, same people we are
currently renting from.
Why not ask to see what else they have?
Existing business relationship will make any transfer run more
smoothly.
Sam Cook
On 2011-07-12, Sam Cook wrote:Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.
I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.
> c) What _exactly_ do we want; we all want it next door so we need specific> arguments and evidence why it should be your door it's next to but what elseI originally suggested this because:
> do we want? Do we want a larger workshop? Separate wood/metal workshops? A
> full bio lab? Just a huge amount of office space? A huge fitted professional
> kitchen?
- we may be able to get somewhere with better access circumstances,
> So can we please move on from "it should be here because...." to (if we mustI agree, the number of suitable places for the hackspace is tiny, so
> keep with it) "it should be here; on average it'll cost X we can get Y&Z and
> here's an example".
when we do find somewhere we might want to move to it will be a case of
"is this better than what we have now, and is it better than the other
options?"
Mark Steward
On 12 July 2011 11:01, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:On 2011-07-12, Sam Cook wrote:Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.This isn't quiet what I meant; I meant more of a when do we want to move; 3 months is minimum notice period but is this something we feel should be imminent or something to aim for the end of year? our member numbers seem pretty stable at the moment so I guess we can take more time for it so I would say we're better off making sure what ever we get is close to perfect.
I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.I agree but equally if we do plan to move there's no point improving the infrastructure. I suppose my point is this: do we feel this is a "Oh gods we need somewhere bigger NOW" or a "When we find the perfect spot let's grab it" and it seems to be the latter in which case I think we should focus on exactly what it is we want so we'll know if someone finds it.
My proposals are:...
Elliot West
Why not ask to see what else they have?
Existing business relationship will make any transfer run more
smoothly.
Adrian Godwin
>>
> The *absolute minimum* of 3 months is enough benefit to make it worth doing
> the kitchen in my view. If people disagree, I'm happy to pledge to make it
> happen anyway.
>
The kitchen project has been gestating for a lot longer than 3 months
already - probably right back to the initial move to Cremer Street if
you include the ideas for the existing area.
So while the current scheme of spending about £200 on the floor and
getting a minimum of 3 months use out of it doesn't sound too bad,
don't forget that we still can't use a cooker or a sink in there.
Cooker is worst, as we think we need to spend a lot on the electrics
(maybe £500 ??) and we haven't even scheduled it yet - just getting it
complete will take a fair bite out of that 3 months at the current
rate.
Russ Garrett
I am not tremendously enthused by Workspace Group considering their
behaviour of late, and the slightly uncomfortable "revelation" that we
have so many people visiting.
We should collect a list of all suitable properties and then decide.
No point in preferring/avoiding certain landlords.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Russ Garrett
> So while the current scheme of spending about £200 on the floor and
> getting a minimum of 3 months use out of it doesn't sound too bad,
> don't forget that we still can't use a cooker or a sink in there.
> Cooker is worst, as we think we need to spend a lot on the electrics
> (maybe £500 ??) and we haven't even scheduled it yet - just getting it
> complete will take a fair bite out of that 3 months at the current
> rate.
I think the total amount of sunk costs into the kitchen will probably
be no more than £500 in total (including the floor).
We should not restrict our current activities based on the possibility
of a move in 6-12 months' time, I think that's a dangerous route to go
down.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Sam Cook
danny staple
--
Danny Staple
Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple
Russ Garrett
> How many Sq feet/meters are needed?
On 11 July 2011 11:14, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> - At least 3000 sqft,
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
danny staple
http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/london-commercial-property/light-industrial/north-west-london/2-cullen-way/
Kitchenette, Bathroom.
This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant units out there.
Danny Staple
Mark Steward
Mike
>
> This one is right on the A40, outside congestion charge zone, North Acton
> (Zone 2, Central Line), 3050 Sqft
> http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/london-commercial-property/light-industrial/north-west-london/2-cullen-way/
> Kitchenette, Bathroom.
>
> This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant
> units out there.
>
In my unbiased opinion, that's a fucking awsome location!
Mike.
Nigel Worsley
> units out there.
West London has quite a lot of industrial estates and more than a few
units are vacant,
they are way cheaper than the current space too.
A lot of users of the curent space won't want to travel out that far, but
there are plenty of others that either aren't members or rarely get to
the space because of travelling time (myself included).
These sorts of spaces lend themselves well to a more industrial scale of
hacking, eg. vehicles - I think Monster Garage was recorded in a nearby
unit.
Nigle
Adrian Godwin
>
> These sorts of spaces lend themselves well to a more industrial scale of
> hacking, eg. vehicles - I think Monster Garage was recorded in a nearby
> unit.
>
Without wishing to push excessively (because having a single space is
an excellent aim and is perhaps the right commitment), that's the sort
of thing I had in mind when I suggested multiple spaces that were
distinguished by speciality. Any members might use any space, but
they'd tend to use the big, cheap one for the super-big lathe, the
inspection pit, the awesome scrapheap, the loud party. Or the small
expensive one for the lasering, the beer, the roasted garlic.
-adrian
Sam Cook
West London has quite a lot of industrial estates and more than a few units are vacant,This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant
units out there.
they are way cheaper than the current space too.
Adrian Godwin
>
> Can we move away from talking about where to have the space and look more at
> what we want? if we know that we may have a better chance of pinning
> something down.
>
Kind of good to use as an example, and to flush out ideas .. "this
would suit us because .. etc.
I'm with you on going no further than that, though.
-adrian
Sam Kelly
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/
That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
Nigel Worsley
> I can see us hiving off a second London Hackspace within a couple of years
I think it will happen rather sooner than that, who would have predicted
a year ago that we would have doubled the size of the space and be
looking at moving again by now?
> London Hackwest?
That is the name I have had in mind for a while!
> but I'd oppose any kind of separation by function
Agreed. If there is a second space then it should aim to provide as many
of the facilities of the current space as possible, however, that isn't
likely to be possible initially due to cost. Also, it is likely that
certain niche interests will take off in one space but not the other
due to the different mix of users, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.
However, back to what we should really be discussing: what facilities do
we think are desireable/essential in a hackspace. This list is just as
applicable to getting a second space as moving the existing one, we can
decide which to do later based on what premises become available and
the ever changing membership levels / finance.
I would suggest keeping the list as general as possible, include things
we would like but don't expect to be able to get in London, like the
trebuchet firing range mentioned earlier.
I have been making my own list of things which includes much of what is
now on the wiki, I will finish thinking it through and post it this
evening.
Nigle
Mike
>
> Can we move away from talking about where to have the space and look more at
> what we want? if we know that we may have a better chance of pinning
> something down.
>
> As it stands anywhere we have the space is going to inconvenience some and
> be better for others.
>
> Would many of our (current) users want to be able to hack about cars? or
> would a single large office space we can use for soldering be better?
>
> To that end what do most people currently use the space for?
>
It's hard to say what we want really. There are so many people who use
the space for so many different things. If I had to summarise it, I'd
say the space provides two things:
1) A place that houses communal tools that you probably couldn't justify
owning yourself (MRI scanner, 28-axis CNC machine, Large Hadron
Collider, etc)
2) A place that people can come to do their thing in a social manner
I think we've got that working pretty well at the moment. The two
problems I'd say that we have are space and accessability. I think that
our next criteria should be direct train line to Central London. At the
moment it's a nightmare of a ride into town from the Space and that
means it's a nightmare for anyone coming from outside the lcoal area.
So I think HackSpace is going the right thing, we just need more of it!
Mike.
Lester Hawksby
problems I'd say that we have are space and accessability. I think that
our next criteria should be direct train line to Central London. At the
moment it's a nightmare of a ride into town from the Space and that
means it's a nightmare for anyone coming from outside the local area.
...we could do much better than a short walk from Liverpool Street?
This I find difficult to believe.
Lester
Nigel Worsley
> I think that our next criteria should be direct train line to Central London.
I would certainly put that higher than specifying a specific zone, in
the time taken to get to the space from any underground station a fair
bit of distance can be covered ( at a rough estimate, 8 stops ). It
might be an issue for members with a very limited travel budget though.
> So I think HackSpace is going the right thing, we just need more of it!
Yep!
But if it wasn't so far East I would visit a lot more often...
Nigle
Nigel Worsley
> ...we could do much better than a short walk from Liverpool Street?
I wouldn't consider a 15 minute walk to be short - Google maps says 21
minutes but I walk faster than most people.
Nigle
Elliot West
> But if it wasn't so far East I would visit a lot more often...
It's very inconvenient for some and very convenient for others. This
will likely be true of any location available to us.
Sam Kelly
My vote would be to stay in Cremer St, and look around for a suitable space to hive off a second space into, somewhere westish. As far as facilities go, for me the important aspects of a hackspace are (in roughly this order) a) the community of people, b) a workshop with bench space & tools, and c) the availability of non-dusty desks & comfy chairs near wifi & a kettle/microwave.
Tim Storey
> We certainly have a direct bus from the Geffrye to the centre of town at the
> moment, and that's much more accessible than being right next to LS or most
> other tube stations would be.
Don't forget the new train line that allows you to connect to Dalston
and Whitechapel literally next door.
>but it would also mean we couldn't nip out to
>specialist suppliers of (say) plastics, art materials, or beer nearly
>so easily as at present.
very important point.
Katie Sutton
> We certainly have a direct bus from the Geffrye to the centre of town at the
> moment, and that's much more accessible than being right next to LS or most
> other tube stations would be.
Also the 55 from the other end of Cremer Street, which goes via Old
Street into the centre of town (and is the N55 in the middle of the
night). As has been said, due to the sheer size of London, everywhere
is inconvenient for some and convenient for others.
Hoxton may be a pain in that we merely have one Overground line and
buses, but the Overground is fast, and well-connected a few stops
north at Highbury, and a few south at Whitechapel.
And if you don't want to use the Overground, we are *very* well
connected for buses:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses/pdf/hoxtonstation-12492.pdf
(Is a print out of the above for the wall by the door worth having?)
> My vote would be to stay in Cremer St, and look around for a suitable space
> to hive off a second space into, somewhere westish. As far as facilities go,
> for me the important aspects of a hackspace are (in roughly this order) a)
> the community of people, b) a workshop with bench space & tools, and c) the
> availability of non-dusty desks & comfy chairs near wifi & a
> kettle/microwave.
+1
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Russ Garrett
At the risk of exaggerating the point, for every person complaining
that the space is too far west, there's someone who won't turn up if
it moves west. How much subscription revenue would we lose if we moved
it to west London, and would that be counterbalanced enough by a gain
in west Londoners?
On a more personal (some would say selfish) note, both Jonty and I are
east Londoners. We have some pretty awesome ideas for what a new,
larger hackspace could be -- for example, I seriously want a proper
bar and I'm more than prepared to do the legwork for it -- but I think
we'll have a lot less incentive to build it if the space is 45mins
away down the Central Line.
Perhaps the answer to this is eventually to split the space along
east/west lines, but we would need people who were dedicated enough to
do it (which includes proving that it's feasible).
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Tim Richardson
Adrian Godwin
>> I think that our next criteria should be direct train line to Central
>> London.
>
It's half a mile from the Northern line ! The only people who need it
closer than that are in wheelchairs (and Hoxton's pretty well equipped
if you are).
Wimps.
Sam Kelly
On 12 Jul 2011 20:40, "Adrian Godwin" <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/12/11, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/07/2011 16:36, Mike wrote:
> >> I think that our next criteria should be direct train line to Central
> >> London.
> >
>
> It's half a mile from the Northern line ! The only people who need it
> closer than that are in wheelchairs
No.
Katie Sutton
And those who have other difficulties and disabilities that mean they
can't walk far or climb stairs.
And those who need to carry large objects (for hacking, perhaps).
And plenty of other reasons, none of which make them wimps.
Adrian Godwin
Londoner shortcoming, not actually offensive to anyone who has real
problems.
However, for anyone with no particular disability I don't see the
distance to Old Street as excessive. For those carrying heavy items
or who can't walk far then Hoxton appears to me well suited - I use it
myself in those conditions. I doubt there's anywhere in London that
isn't an awkward change from _some_ other-end.
The only difficulty I can see is that, although Cremer Street has
lifts they're probably pretty useless as the doors are not easy to
move. If there's more to it than that, please educate me.
-adrian
Katie Sutton
> Apologies : I meant to be mildly insulting to what I see as a bit of a
> Londoner shortcoming, not actually offensive to anyone who has real
> problems.
>
> However, for anyone with no particular disability I don't see the
> distance to Old Street as excessive. For those carrying heavy items
> or who can't walk far then Hoxton appears to me well suited - I use it
> myself in those conditions. I doubt there's anywhere in London that
> isn't an awkward change from _some_ other-end.
>
> The only difficulty I can see is that, although Cremer Street has
> lifts they're probably pretty useless as the doors are not easy to
> move. If there's more to it than that, please educate me.
24 hour security; it's possible to bug the security guards to open the
doors for you, although of course they'd probably be rather sulky
about it.
The bigger problem is that the lift is often left open to stop people
using them at night.
Robert Leverington
Robert
On 2011-07-11, Robert Leverington wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> When we become a charity we will become eligible for both an 80%
> mandatory rates discount from the council, and for Gift Aid (which will
> essentially increase by 20% all subscription amounts greater than �5 by
> members who pay UK income tax). Additionally I would expect growth to
> continue at the same, if not a higher rate that we have seen over the
> past 12 months since we moved in to Cremer Street.
>
> Combined we will hopefully see an increase in recurring revenue from the
> current level of �4,800/month to around �6,000/month.
>
> Cash on hand has also been a significant concern. Our lease requires
> three months notice in order to break, giving us ample time to build this
> up.
>
> This expected increase in revenue gives us a great opportunity to re-
> evaluate our current location. Especially as the new access control
> arrangements are very inconvenient for our purposes, and within the
> business centre itself we are limited in terms of expansion as both units
> either side of ours' are occupied. Importantly however, our current
> situation is stable so we are in no hurry to find a new space - giving us
> a good chance to perform a thorough search. (Although I believe it was
> an excellent choice and has enabled the hackspace to flourish, Cremer
> Street ultimately chosen with extreme haste due to the circumstances at
> the time.)
>
> I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
> London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
> are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
> get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
> transport network.
>
> Therefore, I would like to propose that we at least consider the
> possibility of moving location in the short-term future.
>
> I would suggest the following requirements, based on those we used for
> the search last year:
> - At least 3000 sqft,
> - In Zone 1,
> - B1 or B2 use class,
> - Price less than �70,000/year (inc. service charge & VAT)
> - No more than 0.5 miles to a tube station
>
> Our budget would give us much greater flexibility than last year,
> enabling us to look at properties charging as much as �20/sqft./annum.
>
> Other issues are:
>
> Leaving Cremer Street:
> We need to return the two units to how they were when we arrived, this
> will require quite a bit of work.
>
> Moving itself:
> Last time we did this it took a day to move all our stuff from an 800
> sqft. space to Cremer Street, not including packing. This will be an
> enormous task, and will take at least an entire weekend. It will also
> see some of our main equipment offline for a short while.
>
> Build-out of the new space:
> There's no guarentee that any location we find will have all the
> ammenities we need, so it's likely we'll have to budget for things such
> as fitting the kitchen, installing partitions, installing new flooring.
> Fortunatley we should have a decent level of cash on hand.
>
> Potential for new features:
> The right space could allow us to run things such as a permanent licensed
> bar, which could be a boon to the hackspace and also increase our
> revenue.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Robert
Adrian Godwin
> doors for you, although of course they'd probably be rather sulky
> about it.
>
> The bigger problem is that the lift is often left open to stop people
> using them at night.
>
People in the space would probably be less sulky about it if you phone
them : if I bring heavy stuff in I often have to hunt the lift down
(I've even had it hide again before I've used it) so I'd have no
problem answering a request for help.
-adrian
Katie Sutton
No, I meant the security staff being sulky about being dragged away
from their iPlayer watching, not space members.
Adrian Godwin
about being asked for help than are the security guards.
-adrian
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
high by 10m wide, visible from at least two railway lines and one motorway.
This is to display a 4m diameter HS logo and an illuminated mural of
Chairman Jonty and his devoted followers.
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
North London Line/Victoria line connection at Highbury puts lots of NW/NE
London within easy reach too
District Line to Whitechapel takes care of a sizeable chunk of SW London.
All in all a cracking little line, 5/10 min service, you will have to look
really hard to get a better location for transport.
Phil
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:47:06 +0100, Tim Storey <tim.s...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Philippe Bradley
Junction (though not til next year).
I'd suggest looking into Kennington Park. I think it matches or even
beats Hoxton for transport (victoria line, both branches of the
northern, bakerloo, overlands into Waterloo, and the Waterloo & City
are all close, plus ample bus services), and it's much more evenly
positioned between East & West London. The building looks nice, and
seems to have units that could suit our purposes (for example
http://www.houstonlawrence.co.uk/properties/341688 , though note that
page seems to have a bug whereby the area isn't being displayed; also
nb it's the sale of a leasehold, but we could maybe take a short
lease).
tom
shape of Jontys head.
There, done. No more discussion over where to move the bikeshed!
Robert Leverington
disheartened and dissapointed by the way it has turned out.
To me, the touting for locations that individuals prefer is rather
selfish. Of course everyone wants a hackspace on their doorstep. Who
wouldn't? But it is quite apparent that hackers are distributed right
across London; North, South, East, and West.
I also find the idea of splitting in to two hackspaces abhorrent, and
frankly absurd.
Right now we have one amazing community of like-minded people, and to
break that up seems rather ruthless and unkind if the only goal is to
make it slightly easier for some people to get to the space.
We also have an immense level of expertise in a whole range of subjects,
even in a city as big as ours I think this is something that will be
virtually impossible to replicate on the same scale -- especially for the
more niche topics. I am incredibly proud that we have somewhere you can
turn up for the first time on a Tuesday, ask who the best person is to
talk about something, and be pointed straight in their direction.
Our members and visitors have access to tens of thousands of pounds of
equipment, a lot of which is donated.
We have a number of dedicated volunteers who, time and again, put huge
amounts of their time and effort in to keeping the space running and
improving our working environment. Phil, Charles, Martin, Mark, Billy,
Jonty, and Russ to name a few. Yet we still have nowhere near enough.
We have, quite literally, all the time in the world to spend finding a
space that is perfect for us. It should be our goal to find somewhere
that has the *best* transport links to enable us to serve as much of
London as we physically can. We should absolutley be a space for the
whole of London. Anything else isn't doing justice to ourselves.
I think the best approach to continue this moving forward is to actually
find potential locations, and then talk about these in terms of how well
they suit us. Any further discussion about requirements and so on is
pointless and futile without an idea of how realistic they are, and the
associated caveats.
Robert
Clare Greenhalgh
Space is great where it is - and I live in south west London. It seems
everyone has got more excited about moving than the fact that we are
turning into a charity and may actually be able to save some money to
be able to move in the future.
If there is a chance of us finding somewhere to rent in the middle of
London obviously that would be ideal, but we should not reject places
that are not 100% convenient for where we live.
The advantage of being right by Hoxton is how accessible it is for
people who have problems moving, as well as being close to Liverpool
Street and many decent places to buy food, drink and supplies.
We will also have to consider when we move if it would be most
practical to have at least a week of crossover between the two spaces
if we move - there is so much to take and then we can set up the other
while unpacking the present one. This would at least meant that people
are able to still able to use the most important parts of the space
(such as the entry system!) as soon as we can.
I promise to make supplies for the move when it happens if I am about,
and am also happy to drive a truck again. I am in no way thinking that
this is going to be in the near future, but I just wanted to show
willing (and that if it is the right place then happiness wherever it
is!).
So glad to be able to say "YAY" for Robert's last post and agree with
the whole lot!
Noko
--
Will Pearson
On Jul 12, 3:25 pm, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/12/11, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > hacking, eg. vehicles - I think Monster Garage was recorded in a nearby
> > unit.
>
> Without wishing to push excessively (because having a single space is
> an excellent aim and is perhaps the right commitment), that's the sort
> of thing I had in mind when I suggested multiple spaces that were
> distinguished by speciality. Any members might use any space, but
> they'd tend to use the big, cheap one for the super-big lathe, the
> inspection pit, the awesome scrapheap, the loud party.
I am also interested in this kind of space. I don't think it is going
to be feasible to have a central location where we can do this kind of
stuff. Hack vehicles etc. I don't have the vehicles or money to hack
them at the moment, so I'm not going to be pushing for it, just
showing interest.
It might be better off as a separate venture though, depending upon
interest from other members.
Will
Jim MacArthur
Mark Steward
Jim MacArthur
Billy
On Jul 13, 12:05 am, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> I wish I hadn't sent this now.
>
Just looking around on the net led me to find some really interesting
places that i wouldn't have considered before.
This, http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-33125573.html/svr/3101;jsessionid=3E701C2ECEF91A429B263059D65A5D86
, being one of the most interesting options.
I'd looked at a lot of live/work units in the past, though i'd been a
little annoyed at the amount of price-fixing in that market.
Interesting to see how the property market is even more damaged than
when i last looked.
I have a longer comment that i need to make on some of these things,
but do not have the time right now. I'll shout later this evening.
Important thing to remember, we have a 3-month break clause on our
current site. There's no rush. No matter what the estate agents tell
you, there's no rush.
Russ Garrett
> It does appeal to me. I'd quite like to have a really large space in the
> middle of nowhere, with the trade-off of being much less accessible than a
> city hackspace; I'd probably still remain a member of a city hackspace.
Yep, I was kind of considering it as a joint venture between UK
hackerspaces. Another one of my vague plans - finding a site for that
would be even more fiddly than finding somewhere in London.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Prestwick
Our members and visitors have access to tens of thousands of pounds of
equipment, a lot of which is donated.
- What would any eventual revamped space need in terms of facilities?
- What stuff that we will eventually bring with us could be fixed and/or improved to benefit the new space?
- What would the eventual layout of a larger space be? As an example should there be a separate presentation hall for lectures/workshops if space allows?
- Should there be a secure data hall/room for anything IT/rack mounted?
- Could we get that really awesome monorail thing going as part of an opening project to toast the new space if and when it comes into being?
Adrian Godwin
> - What would the eventual layout of a larger space be? As an example
> should there be a separate presentation hall for lectures/workshops if space
> allows?
It's difficult to imagine being able to afford so much space that
there could be a permanent allocation for the occasional lecture-style
functions. The current dual use of quiet room with lecture space seems
a very good tradeoff to me.
I can appreciate that it's sometimes annoying to have no quiet space,
but the main room isn't _that_ much noisier unless the space is busy
(and then, nowhere's quiet).
I'd be interested to hear how much of a problem that sharing is :
should there always be quiet space, regardless of what else is on ? Do
we have too many other users of the quiet room ? Or are most people
comfortable with the mix ? I think we once said that external groups
should not be allowed use of the space at weekends because that's
premium time for members : is that still respected ?
-adrian
Russ Garrett
> What would any eventual revamped space need in terms of facilities?
> What stuff that we will eventually bring with us could be fixed and/or
> improved to benefit the new space?
> What would the eventual layout of a larger space be? As an example should
> there be a separate presentation hall for lectures/workshops if space
> allows?
> Should there be a secure data hall/room for anything IT/rack mounted?
> Could we get that really awesome monorail thing going as part of an opening
> project to toast the new space if and when it comes into being?
I think that unless someone at the space has any pending developments
in the field of time travel, this kind of discussion should be saved
until we at least have a shortlist of spaces. There's no point in
discussing the specifics of something which might happen 6-12 months
down the line - that's just bikeshedding.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Ken Boak
Prestwick
Tyr
had would be to look for a unit that has a shop/retail space attached
to it. I don't know if charity-status would allow commercial activity
but there are a lot of things that we collectively could make easily
that would sell to bring in extra funds. Such a space could also be
used for showcasing artistic type projects.
I don't know if this is a practical idea, or even a desirable one, but
I thought I'd toss it out there anyway.
--
Tyr
Russ Garrett
> I know I'm new (in fact this if my first post), but one idea that I've
> had would be to look for a unit that has a shop/retail space attached
> to it. I don't know if charity-status would allow commercial activity
> but there are a lot of things that we collectively could make easily
> that would sell to bring in extra funds. Such a space could also be
> used for showcasing artistic type projects.
Possible, yes. Feasible, perhaps not. Worth bearing in mind, maybe.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Nigel Worsley
> one idea that I've had would be to look for a unit that has a shop/retail space attached to it.
It would certainly help to have an entrance directly from the street that isn't liable to be locked or
have access codes forced upon it!
> I don't know if charity-status would allow commercial activity
It would, but as with our current not-for-profit status there are tax implications.
> but there are a lot of things that we collectively could make easily that would sell to bring in extra funds.
There has been a reluctance to do this in the past due to warranty / fitness for purpose / product liability
issues, but there may be a way to make this work that addresses these concerns.
> Such a space could also be used for showcasing artistic type projects.
This could be good for attracting new members, although we are rather too specialist for this to attract
all that many from passing trade.
> I don't know if this is a practical idea, or even a desirable one, but I thought I'd toss it out there anyway.
Certainly practical, Madlab in Manchester is in a former shop but I don't know if they make use of the
frontage.
Nigle
Katie Sutton
> Certainly practical, Madlab in Manchester is in a former shop but I don't
> know if they make use of the
> frontage.
The time I was nearby, I wouldn't have known Madlab was Madlab unless
someone had pointed it out to me, and I was sitting in the cafe across
the road looking at it for over an hour.