Don't sleep in the fucking space!
Russ Garrett
occasionally sleeping in the space, but it is now getting silly.
One of our toilets has a collection of toiletries to rival an upmarket
west end club. These should be removed by Thursday or they will be
binned.
Someone is completely taking the piss and it's wearing me down. I
don't think it's just me, you're diminishing the value of the space
for everyone by using it as a cheap hostel.
I'm going to give this one more chance, but if this doesn't work I'm
going to seek to outright ban sleeping in the space, and I really
don't want to do that.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Billy
I'm not 100% sure, but i think they're part of the stuff that
Samthetechie was clearing out of his place, as he's moving house.
Think he dropped them off here so they could be used usefully, rather
than just binning them.
It might have been better if he'd dropped a note to say "Free
Toiletries, help yourself", then it would have explicitly stated as to
what was going on.
Simon Howes
There was a dreadful stink in the hackspace yesterday lunchtime plus sleeping bags, utensils, camping supplies dumped by the pcb work area. Apparently some of the occupy chaps had come to the space.
Overheard some conversations including that one was now effectively homeless, and the other boasting he used to "just steal everything" before joining the movement. Yes. He actually was saying that.
1% of the hackspace contains 99% of the cockroaches! #OccupyRoachspace
tom
for over an hour then we trigger an air horn!
Bernard Tyers
All change!
Philip Clevberger
tom
I'll get my spare shitty Dell setup with the kinect and work on a
sleep-sensor tonight :)
On Nov 16, 10:41 am, Philip Clevberger <philip.clevber...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> http://cominganarchy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/war_tub...
Geekinesis
i vote "not".
Geekinesis
"diminishing the value of the space "
tom
<troll>
More security cameras!
</troll>
Avishalom Shalit
a mess in the kitchen"
is that they are afraid they have no authority in case they get told
to bugger off.
they feel that their comment may be understood as "I am a nitpicking
ninny, and a pedantic overzealous cleanliness-is-next-to-godliness
ass"
rather than "I am the knight charged with the virtues of all that is
human, and by the powers vested in me, i charge you to clean your shit
up"
it should be made clear (somehow) that in such a confrontation, the
nitpicker is in the right. always.
and that the "space" will have his back in any argument.
seriously ?
(i am an outsider, you may ignore me. otoh, this allows me to speak freely.)
i mean i know it is hackspace.
but you are about to create an over complicated technical system that
will just be either circumvented on day 2 or annoy the crap out of
everyone.
it is a social problem, the solution however unpleasant will be social.
if you want to hack anything, take behaviors as a challenge,
hack your behavior
try to be the extroverted engineer who looks at the other guy's shows
when talking.
hack other people's behaviors.
what are the different ways you can get someone to clean up after them.
----
-- vish
Nigel Worsley
Done:
http://www.doodle.com/498qqqt8c5cci3k9
Nigle
Mark Steward
what I think inhibits people from telling someone "dude, you just left
a mess in the kitchen"
is that they are afraid they have no authority in case they get told
to bugger off.
they feel that their comment may be understood as "I am a nitpicking
ninny, and a pedantic overzealous cleanliness-is-next-to-godliness
ass"
rather than "I am the knight charged with the virtues of all that is
human, and by the powers vested in me, i charge you to clean your shit
up"
it should be made clear (somehow) that in such a confrontation, the
nitpicker is in the right. always.
and that the "space" will have his back in any argument.
seriously ?
(i am an outsider, you may ignore me. otoh, this allows me to speak freely.)
i mean i know it is hackspace.
but you are about to create an over complicated technical system that
will just be either circumvented on day 2 or annoy the crap out of
everyone.
it is a social problem, the solution however unpleasant will be social.
if you want to hack anything, take behaviors as a challenge,
hack your behavior
try to be the extroverted engineer who looks at the other guy's shows
when talking.
hack other people's behaviors.
what are the different ways you can get someone to clean up after them.
Sam Cook
Martin Klang
beeep! wrong question.
change to:
should we institute lots of rules about what is allowed in the hackspace and what is not?
/m
Alex Pounds
> I think the "tell people off" solution is going to fail for one simple
> reason (WRT the kitchen): people are in the kitchen because they're
> cooking, once they've cooked they leave. Others don't then check that
> they've cleaned stuff up; they're doing their own stuff.
So what you're saying is: we need Hackspace prefects, right?
--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^
Toby Catlin
Mark Steward
Tim Hutt
> Wrong process, imho - voting is a pretty blunt tool.
Yeah but it seems to be the best way to actually make decisions.
Otherwise we just debate forever (c.f. cameras).
Mark Steward
Sam Cook
Otherwise we just debate forever (c.f. cameras).
Sean O'Halloran
tom
the spinal bone and a plane formed by the floor is < 20 degrees or so
and stays that way for an hour or so then that person is probably
sleeping :) It takes into account rotations around the spinal axis
(i.e. "tossing and turning"). but fails if people sleep sitting up
Obviously this wont ever get written or used but its an interesting
thought experiment :)
>
> > Nigle
Adrian Godwin
>
> Who on this mailing list can provide the reasons they have had to stay
> at the LHS? I expect most people have never needed to.
>
Fair question - I'm someone who has slept in the space in the past and
hasn't recently. But that's one reason I'm in favour of discouraging
it, but not in favour of a total ban.
I live 50 miles away : that's half an hour on the tube, an hour on the
train, then an hour's walk. I can leave the hackspace at a convenient
time after doing a useful evening's work and get home about 2am. And
then I can catch another train back and get there at maybe 10. It's
not a great use of time, if I want to be there two days running.
The increased dislike of sleeping isn't the only reason I've stopped :
two single train tickets cost no less than two returns, so there's
very little money to be saved by staying. It's slightly more
attractive if I've come by car (not common) but next time I do that
I'll sleep in the car too.
-adrian
Sam Cook
It is an anti-social thing to do, especially for the people who turn
up to do some work the next morning and it smells like a bedroom or
someone is in their way still sleeping. If you can make it to the
space, then you should be able to make it home again to sleep and turn
up again the next morning to continue.
We don't sleep in pubs or theatres, etc - other places we might be in
the evening.
Who on this mailing list can provide the reasons they have had to stay
at the LHS? I expect most people have never needed to.
It is one of those things, where everyone pays towards the upkeep of
the space, and everyone should have the opportunity to enjoy it
equally - and this is obviously one gets on peoples nerves.
Avishalom Shalit
that may just permit it while disincentive abuse
sleeping at the space is allowed under the following conditions.
tl;dr; disclosed+costs money
1- it must be declared by the sleeper. before turning in (even a
minute before), the sleeper should put his name up on a designated
board on the wall/website (sleep calendar.)
2- it isn't free. the cost is N^2 pounds , where N is the accumulated
number of nights slept in a calendar month
-> so first time in a month it costs 1 pound, the second night costs 4
pounds, . . .the tenth night costs 100 pounds.
optional rules for enforcement . . . .
3- if you nod off at the keyboard for 10 minutes you are not sleeping,
but if you lay down with a blanket/sleeping bag, you are
4- if will be a serious offence and abuse of the space if someone is
asleep , and not on the calendaer
-----
if there are still to many sleepers , just change the function in #2
-- vish
Adrian Godwin
> It is an anti-social thing to do, especially for the people who turn
> up to do some work the next morning and it smells like a bedroom or
> someone is in their way still sleeping.
oh yeah .. and late sleepers are a nuisance even to other sleepers. If
you do have to stay, at least get up at first light, open the doors
and clean up.
-adrian
Anish Mohammed
Anish Mohammed
Twitter: anishmohammed
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/anishmohammed
Callum Finlayson
plan, and the something they would say would likely be very negative.
Adrian Godwin
enforcement remains a problem.
-adrian
Big Will
I re-read it, however since some people are happy to reply to/agree
with it, I'm reposting for the thread.
Jim MacArthur
Avishalom Shalit
closing your eyes to the problem (of sleeping/confronting people who
sleep at noon) , making it subversive, only aggravates it. and makes
it less likely that people will confront repeat offenders.
it must be brought to light.
to conform with the lease though, you may phrase it conversely
sleeping is disallowed.
if an emergency occurs and someone is stranded overnight, s/he will be
fined at the following rates
10 pound for the first night in a calendar month.
20 pounds for the second
40 for the third
etc.
to help us with the administrative collection of said fines, offenders
should register themselves on our online correctional wiki.
and in the words of John Hodgman john on the daily show
"you're welcome"
-- vish
Tim Hutt
of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
*can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)
And to pre-empt the inevitable "But I missed the last train once!", I
would wager decent money that you wouldn't have missed it if you
couldn't sleep at the space...
Toby Catlin
legal issues aside (though they are important, just not my subject.)
closing your eyes to the problem (of sleeping/confronting people who
sleep at noon) , making it subversive, only aggravates it. and makes
it less likely that people will confront repeat offenders.
it must be brought to light.
to conform with the lease though, you may phrase it conversely
t
Sci
> We have tried to be nice and accommodate people sleeping in the space in
> emergencies and it has been abused. So I think a total ban is the only
> way to go.
>
> <tangent>
> As far as the technical solution to a social problem, I would like a
> sleep detector/alarm to wake me and prevent me from waking up freezing
> cold at 3am.
>
> I think tracking motion alone won't be effective as someone sleeping can
> move and someone who is awake can remain pretty still if just watching
> tele. Breathing is inconsistent so i think it will be hard to filter
> out. I am not sure heart rate is significantly different between
> sleeping and very relaxed (or some level of drunkness). Tracking if the
> eyes are open seems to be the best way to me, a webcam and opencv might
> be able to do it.
>
> I would be interested in anyones thoughts on the best way to detect a
> sleeping person.
Delta brainwaves.
If we're going to pedantically suggest more solutions to remove
individual responsibility for actions in the space, then why not go as
far as brainwave monitoring?
Sci
Anish
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Sci
<blink>SATIRE</blink>
Good grief mom, there's no school in the morning why can't we sleep-in?
And why should I be the one to clean up? That's what we have cleaners
for now!
<blink>SATIRE</blink>
That said, here's another possible level of pointless rule obscuration:
Sleeping on the sofas or beanbag are banned. You're only allowed to
sleep there if you use the provided (single) hackspace hammock. It will
be secured from the ceiling above the woodpile.
Sci
Sci
and getting them to pay up. Which if we take the same model for
accountability as keeping the space clean, means we'll need to employ a
receptionist. Possibly a porter too.
At what point do we stop working toward getting the space declared a
charity and start working toward getting it declared a B&B?
Sci
On 16/11/2011 17:38, Toby Catlin wrote:
> Surely the fine should meet or exceed the average cost of a local hotel.
> Say �70.
>
> I still don't believe that people who are sleeping in the space don't
> have any alternative. There are lots of hotels, hotels, b&b or
> hopefully friends and fellow hackspacers that would put someone up for a
> night. Sleeping in the space is simply the cheapest and easiest.
>
>
> t
>
> On 16 November 2011 17:30, Avishalom Shalit <avis...@gmail.com
Tim Burrell-Saward
As a new member to the space I'm conscious of wading into discussions
like this, but this post as well as the cleaning thread have got me a
little worried.
One of the things that attracted me to the space in the first place
was the fact that it seemed to exist just fine without needing rules
to stop people taking the piss. It essentially runs on common sense
and respect, which is absolutely fantastic and in my opinion must be
protected. I totally agree that if the space is being mistreated,
steps should be taken to rectify it, but I can't help but worry that
introducing site-wide rules and policies will harm the freedom that
makes the space so attractive.
Rather than banning people from sleeping in the space, why not deal
with problems on a case by case basis? If someone is identified as
taking the piss, we should really all be grown up enough to be able to
have a polite word. I would certainly have no problem in waking
someone up if they're taking up space that I need to use. I don't
think it's confrontational, just normal behaviour.
As far as my preference on the matter - if I'm working on a project so
late that I don't have it in me to get home, I'd like to think that
I'll be ok to crawl under a desk somewhere out of the way to get a few
hours sleep. I'd definitely make sure I was up early enough so not to
affect the day crowd, and I certainly wouldn't do the same thing over
a period of days. Similarly, If I make a mess I clear it up. Common
sense & respect, innit.
My point - be careful when talking about introducing rules. They have
a habit of making things messy.
phil jones
of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
*can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)"
I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
say, Kings Cross anyway.
Wasn't there a hackspace van around at some point? Or, if not, could
we acquire some sort of non-working vehicle and have it done out as an
emergency sleeping facility?
phil
Tim Hutt
> Rather than banning people from sleeping in the space, why not deal
> with problems on a case by case basis?
I think because no-one wants to feel like a dick and wake someone up.
I think it would be nice if sleeping were allowed as a last resort,
but you can't say "Sleeping is only allowed as a last resort" without
people sleeping as a second resort... So better on balance to ban it
outright.
Russ Garrett
> a habit of making things messy.
I totally agree. The entire set of rules is here - they change rarely
and are intentionally broad:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules
Earlier this year, after much debate, we added the "You should not
sleep in the space" rule because people were taking the piss. It
doesn't seem to have helped much, but it at least lets people know
what the deal is.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Tim Hutt
> Go on then ... (
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hotel&hl=en&ll=51.531828,-0.075252&spn=0.003724,0.010568&sll=51.531154,-0.075767&sspn=0.003724,0.010568&vpsrc=6&t=m&radius=0.27&hq=hotel&z=17
> )
Ok: http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Sleeping
> I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
> something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
> find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
> say, Kings Cross anyway.
I hate planning ahead as much as the next guy, but I still don't think
"I didn't want to go home / book a hotel" is very convincing...
Sci
> "Given that the reasons people sleep there seem to be along the lines
> of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
> *can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
> of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)"
>
> Go on then ... (
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hotel&hl=en&ll=51.531828,-0.075252&spn=0.003724,0.010568&sll=51.531154,-0.075767&sspn=0.003724,0.010568&vpsrc=6&t=m&radius=0.27&hq=hotel&z=17
> )
>
> I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
> something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
> find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
> say, Kings Cross anyway.
>
> Wasn't there a hackspace van around at some point? Or, if not, could
> we acquire some sort of non-working vehicle and have it done out as an
> emergency sleeping facility?
To the best of my knowledge the hackspace van covered all those bases.
It was a "camper", it was non-working, it was located in the car-park.
It was also never used, never repaired, and somehow still got stolen.
Plus I'd suspect camping in the car-park would also be against the
tenancy agreement.
Sci
Mark Steward
Sci
> I don't usually get angry about things. I really don't mind people
> occasionally sleeping in the space, but it is now getting silly.
>
> One of our toilets has a collection of toiletries to rival an upmarket
> west end club. These should be removed by Thursday or they will be
> binned.
>
> Someone is completely taking the piss and it's wearing me down. I
> don't think it's just me, you're diminishing the value of the space
> for everyone by using it as a cheap hostel.
>
> I'm going to give this one more chance, but if this doesn't work I'm
> going to seek to outright ban sleeping in the space, and I really
> don't want to do that.
>
I hate to ask this, but has anyone ever been kicked-out-of/banned-from
the space for breaking the rules? Is there any sort of announcement
if/when someone is banned?
I know this doesn't address this post directly, but it does address the
tone of the other subsequent replies to it.
While I know it's better to deal with individual issues in private for
many reasons, when larger rules are broken it serves a positive purpose
to show the penalty for breaking those rules being enforced publicly.
I believe rules are only as strong as the ability to enforce them, and
if they aren't shown being enforced now and then, the perception is that
they aren't being enforced at all.
If people are continually breaking the rules, then accountability needs
to be forced upon those who are doing so, or risk ALL rules being seen
as equally unenforced.
I'm also concerned that there might be a touch of "Geek Social Fallacy
#1" (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) at work here. No
one wants to be the one to call someone on bad behaviour because they
themselves don't want to be seen as evil/mean/unfair.
And even if they are, there enough members of the space now it's hard to
know everyones names. How do you identify someone if you were to report
them anonymously?
While not practical for the space in the same way, meets I go to
regularly now have at least one person officially on-staff at each, even
wearing a special staff T-shirt. They act as go-to person for the venue
owners in case of trouble, but also go-to person for attendees having
trouble or seeing someone breaking the rules. Stuff gets dealt with
immediately and quietly, but temporary and permanent bans are notified
publicly.
Perhaps running the issues like trouble-tickets, or having a contact
rota to similarly report issues to immediately?
Sci
tom
On Nov 16, 5:00 pm, Sam Cook <sam.lindenrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the big difference between a pub and the space is that people will
> sometimes work all night at the space. When you're at a pub you get kicked
> out at 11 (or when ever) but that doesn't happen at the space so it's easy
> to lose track of time and miss the last train etc.
>
> People have suggested an alarm for last train to X frankly if you want to
> make that go ahead, just as if you want a 9am 'get hacking' alarm go ahead.
> As I've said every-time this debate has come up I have no problem with
> people crashing over on a sofa etc. Especially if they're taking part in a
> hackathon or similar (eg. I've snoozed in the space after the laser cutter
> hackathon).
>
> The problem seems to be people persistently staying over several nights in
> a row and then it's a case of confronting them and getting them to stop.
>
> I don't like the idea of an outright ban as I now live about 2 hours (and 4
> buses) away so late at night I'd like the option of crashing over if I
> intend to do more work the morning after (which means I may actually turn
> up during the week or stay over at weekends).
>
> And if you think an alarm is the answer then don't just bitch and moan on
> here: go and make one.
>
> S
>
kev
particularly OK, but not going to get banned for it either). I've been
in the situation before where I intended to stay up working on stuff
but then found myself so sleepy I just couldn't. To say you can't stay
over all night and work on things removes the point of the space being
24 hours, but kicking someone out at 4am because they dozed off so
they have to wander around on the street looking for somewhere to
sleep doesn't sound very enjoyable.
I would be in favour of the discouragement being more social than
monetary - I think if we fix a £ price (cost or fine, whichever way
you word it) that this will make it seem more acceptable (as discussed
in The Undercover Economist). I think a big social stigma attached to
it would help more! Maybe a couple of signs around saying it is very
frowned upon and clear messages during introductions etc making clear
it is only a last resort and you should do something nice for the
space to make up for it. I do also think a big loud alarm at possibly
8am would be good idea, because this will clearly signify the start of
the period when it is plain NOT okay to still be asleep, basically
saying "We not best pleased if you've slept here but now that the big
siren has gone off, people are allowed to wake you via jugs of water
or fire extinguishers"! Anyone agree with the thinking?
Kevin
Tim Storey
too many rules. sleeping should be discouraged. this is how, if someone
is in your way i.e. impeding your ability to hack away then wake them
up. same goes for cleaning really. the space is a hackspace not a sleep
space nor a make lots of mess that I cannot be arsed to clean up space.
the latter is punishable by electrocution the former by repeated waking.
I think there is no point making rules. as Morris says education is the
key my spin is we should not be afraid of confrontation. the lack of
willingness to engage in confrontation although entirely understandable
is in fact creating the problem, those that take the piss feel they can
take the piss because they get away with it thus the pattern is
reinforced. the problems must be dealt with socially i.e. by actual
physical confrontation otherwise we all get walked upon by the selfish
and inconsiderate. we get trampled upon and the selfish are not educated
in how to be a considerate human and not a useless component.
\t
SheraDreaming
good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
or whatever.
However again there's the question of who tracks it, and it won't
happen.
Also not that we ever have, but we should avoid ever kicking people
out to find a hostel at night...I know it's 95% males here but as with
the sleeping in the van idea, speaking as a female that could be
dangerous and possibly liability-inducing. Let's have something that
works for all.
One problem with fines is that it means those who are well-off can
afford to stay and others can't. Not a binary I'd like to set up in
the space.
And Tom, you are hilarious. May I suggest Predator sensing + the
previously trolled "ooh ee" witchdoctor song[1] at progressively
louder volume IF you are doing this anyway--for sleeping, plate-
leaving or what have you. For a less annoying suggestion regarding
sleeping, perhaps the "alarm" could just consist of a very high-
powered fan pointing at the sleeper turning on. It'll soon freeze
them out if the fan's mooring is not easily accessible to the
sleeper. Then sleeping would need to be restricted to one area
though.
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoBQWLE11NA
SheraDreaming
not knowing each other well or at all?
Should we institute some way of people knowing each other better, and
that way they won't be afraid of confrontation?
Tim Storey
culture is incredibly confrontation avoidance based as witnessed by the
problems of the hackspace, it's an issue that need addressing as it
creates no end of problems. in my experience confrontation only happens
when one party has reached the end of their tether and then reacts
(usually badly).
if you are upset say so with no fear. this is not to say that this is
easy but should be encouraged
Mark Steward
I like the idea of "real" sleepers (not dozers) having to do something
good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
or whatever.
However again there's the question of who tracks it, and it won't
happen.
Also not that we ever have, but we should avoid ever kicking people
out to find a hostel at night...I know it's 95% males here but as with
the sleeping in the van idea, speaking as a female that could be
dangerous and possibly liability-inducing. Let's have something that
works for all.
One problem with fines is that it means those who are well-off can
afford to stay and others can't. Not a binary I'd like to set up in
the space.
And Tom, you are hilarious.
tom
intelligent trolling-bot :D
I like the idea of "do something awesome for us and we'll do something
awesome for you" though, time to start building nice things for
everyone again*
*this does not include the monorail
On Nov 16, 8:20 pm, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com> wrote:
Monty
Monty
SheraDreaming
travel and park under furniture, and put an extensible ski pole on top
so it can go under the sleeping hammock and poke sleepers in the
behind several hundred times come 8am, while blasting the witchdoctor
song and turning the ceiling fan on. (45 degree angle capability will
also enable crotch shots but that's another story.) Comedic value
high.
phil jones
Katie Sutton
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:01 PM, SheraDreaming <killas...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I like the idea of "real" sleepers (not dozers) having to do something
>> good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
>> or whatever.
>>
>
> That's actually a nice idea - it's much easier to ask "what are you doing
> for the space?" than repeat "sleeping is verboten". It might even fit into
> the culture nicely.
+1 to that idea.
I've slept in the space before, occasionally when I probably shouldn't
have, but crucially another time the 'space provided me with somewhere
safe to go to after finding myself in central London at 3am with my
nightbus cancelled and a pretty mentally hectic evening - I needed
both sleep, and people around me, and I headed to the space where I
was able to decompress and kip for a few hours before going home once
buses were running again.
</tangent>
point being, seriously discouraging sleeping rather than outright
banning it, and asking people to give back to the space when they use
it in a way it's not meant to be used, is more useful to
members/visitors.
Expecting people to be up and hacking or off home by 9am is entirely
reasonable IMO, as is expecting them to provide something in kind to
the space. (Or financial, if they prefer to pay actual hard cash.)
Now I've moved out of London, last time I came I booked into a YHA
hostel. Starts at £15/night (+£3 for non-members) and most if not all
of them are open 24hrs, so phone numbers can be posted in the space
for people to call and see which ones have beds available. Other
budget options: St Christopher's and Backpackers.
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Earthshine
a sticky situation like Katie is fine. It is the people that regularly
take the piss that gets my goat and who clearly sleep there as they
have nowhere else to go or so they don't have to pay rent elsewhere.
There are a small number of people that fall into this category and
who have overstayed their welcome in my opinion.
Christopher Fraser
M
often and i worry that you have formed a biased opinion of the people
who do catch some ZZzzzz. The people that sleep here are not bad
horrible people trying to take the piss. I know them all personally,
nice people generally speaking and only a few that I have met that
didn't contribute directly to the space. I personally promote the
hackspace, try and strike deals with local retailers to get us good
deals and do my best to encourage best use of the space.. I have been
known to 'take the piss' and sleep here too much, but I was never
aiming to upset anyone. Neither are anyone else, there have been
people who do not contribute to our community and those are the ones I
am against..
I consider someone who contributes as someone who is capable of
sharing skills, taking care of the space, kind, communicative and
making use of the resources here to better their understanding of any
given subject. I do a lot to support people and share whatever it is I
can, and I have found most people to be just the same here and many of
those have been known to sleep here and would fall within the category
that you created previously called 'sleepers'. Maybe a new label might
be 'passionates'?
I only know of one instance of someone purposefully quitting paying
rent and using the hackspace as a home, and no one appreciated it and
it caused a lot of bad feeling - rightfully so.. That said, does it
actually hurt anyone in the long run? Once it was addressed properly,
said person began hiding the sleeping and becoming much less of a
pain. Likewise, once it was raised with me followed by sensible
constructive methods to approach a harmonious balance, life was dandy
and I don't believe I have upset anyone lately. Except when I do my
usual trolling, sowwy <3 all. I slept here 2 hours last night, I had
a bed across the road I could have stayed at but I enjoy being at
hackspace and had things to work on so it suited me better that way.
We love the hackspace, the people, the culture and we are an integral
part of this community and despite what some might think we have the
best interests of hackspace at our heart. I'm eternally grateful for
what the hackspace has done for me, I would encourage any of you to
ask me how hackspace has improved my life significantly, I will be
happy to tell all.
--
>
++++++++++[>+>+++>++
+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.
M
--
Sci
inclined to sleep in it. ;P
Avishalom Shalit
-- vish
Martin
Jim MacArthur
Russ Garrett
> started from a bunch of toiletries that were left in the toilet by someone
> thinking they could be useful, when other wise they would just be thrown
> out. So rather than not sleeping in the space, I think the answer is just
> to bin the toiletries next time.
Perhaps my original email seemed to imply that, but I've also had
complaints from several people in the last week about finding people
asleep in the space. It wasn't just the toiletries.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
tom
call from our generous ruler and overlord and have it play over
doorbot at 8 in the morning. That way anyone asleep will be woken and
anyone already awake will feel empowered by the greatness of Lord
Jonty and do better hacking things
Seriously though, one big fuck-off loud wakeup alarm at 8 in the
morning would help
On Nov 17, 10:08 am, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
d00n
If people are in here and once in a while end up crashing after being
working on something a long time, fine so long as they don't expect
special treatment. If someone is taking the piss, then deal with that
someone, but do NOT start following the line of thought "Well, a few
people are abusing this, so lets start punishing everyone for it"
because quite frankly anyone going down that road can blow it out of
their ass.
I've had a few times where I've pulled a late night session, and yes
have fallen asleep for a few hours, but I have never expected anyone
else to accommodate me or stop what they're doing for it. Hell, if I'm
in the way of something I fully expect to get woken and told to move.
If I'm working late, I'm looking at a good three hour trip home, and
that's assuming I don't pass out asleep on the way and wake up in the
arse end of nowhere.
There seems to be a complete fear or cowardice of confronting where
people abuse the space, and an attitude of instead trying to hide
behind a blanket rule rather than risk the conflict of directly
raising the problem with the people responsible. There's been many,
many times at which i've been stuck in London late at night and
thought "Screw it, I'll go to the space and work on a project for a
few hours" gone there, worked for a bit and gotten too tired and
crashed after a few hours, however I have *ALWAYS* set an alarm for a
time when I can reasonably get an early train home in those
situations, but if it's going to come to a point where a bunch of
cowardly people are going to penalise people like me because they
don't have the balls to confront the people who treat it like a hostel
than frankly I'd rather just stop bothering donating anything to the
space at all. It always amazes me how loudly people are to complain
and whine on the mailing list, and yet rarely or never get their act
together to say anything at the times they actually see the thing
they're complaining about.
Yes, I agree with the fact the Hackspace is not a hostel, but also
accept the fact that if it's open 24 hours, every so often someone is
going to work too late and crash out. Either deal with that, or run
the Hackspace on office hours. Either deal with people who take the
piss directly rather than just wave around blanket rules and bans, or
shut the hell up and quit bitching. Hell, it amazes me at the
pettiness of this place that this topic gets more whining than the
fact someone in the space was caught a while back using the space's
connection to bring up info on defrauding credit cards. Get some
goddamn perspective.
d00n
Jim MacArthur
James Heaver
way, this isn't your personal hotel" could be played very loudly on
demand.
That way confrontation adverse people could simply press a button
somewhere and have doorbot wake the offenders up.
Perhaps there are all sorts of passive aggressive messages which would
be useful to add to doorbot
tom
On Nov 17, 10:40 am, James Heaver <ja...@heaver.org> wrote:
> Perhaps a "Get off your lazy arse, wake up you tosser - you're in the
> way, this isn't your personal hotel" could be played very loudly on
> demand.
>
> That way confrontation adverse people could simply press a button
> somewhere and have doorbot wake the offenders up.
>
> Perhaps there are all sorts of passive aggressive messages which would
> be useful to add to doorbot
>
Charles Yarnold
Dave Ingram
> I'll record some sort of rousing, loud, trumpetty, chanting wake up
> call from our generous ruler and overlord and have it play over
> doorbot at 8 in the morning. That way anyone asleep will be woken and
> anyone already awake will feel empowered by the greatness of Lord
> Jonty and do better hacking things
>
>
> Seriously though, one big fuck-off loud wakeup alarm at 8 in the
> morning would help
those who have particular trouble staying awake?
Note: this should *not* be tied to spacensus's idea of how many people
there are, as that provides an easy workaround. It should also be on a
tamper-evident and not-easy-to-disable speaker.
D
Elliot West
"can blow it out of their ass"
"a bunch of cowardly people are going to penalise people like me"
"they don't have the balls"
"shut the hell up and quit bitching"
"Get some goddamn perspective"
Katie Sutton
> Asking you to follow rule 6 is 'penalising' you?
Rule 6 says you *should* not sleep in the space. Perhaps it's a
matter of semantics, but that can be read to mean "you shouldn't, but
it's not explicitly banned if you /really/ need to sleep here".
I've explained how being able to sleep at the space has directly saved
my ass before; I'm not going to do it again. And whilst I support
occasional sleeping at the space (in the case of emergency or
hackathons or whatever) being allowed, I agree those who take the piss
should be woken if they're in the way or at 8am or so.
I know it's not what the space is for. I know sleeping here isn't a
membership benefit; I'm sure d00n does too. But outright banning
sleeping in the space is massively unhelpful to the people who very
occasionally need to.
I worked all night on an assignment for my OU course once and someone
was asleep on the sofa snoring so loud the stuff on the table next to
him vibrated. It was annoying. But I didn't know why he was sleeping
there, it might have been the difference between sleeping on the sofa
and sleeping under a bridge for all I knew, so I put headphones and
music on and (wo)manned up.
If an IRC command to get Doorbot to tell sleepers to wake the fuck up
is what's needed for angry members to dare confront people then make
it happen. That's what Hackspace is about.
Jim MacArthur
danny staple
People still sleeping in the space well into the morning get a stamp,
perhaps with numbers for local hostels etc.
--
Danny Staple
Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple
SheraDreaming
Perhaps it could say "zzz.cockadoodledoo.co.uk" along the bottom,
along with a picture of a sunrise and a big timestamp. Another
alternative: All Your Face Are Belong To Us. Wake Your Time! Lol.
@Katie, I agree with you that there should be no outright ban on
occasional sleeping. I can appreciate the circumstance you described,
believe me. But the tone of your post seems angry and combined with
the previous angry post I think this is just showing that people are
right not to want to confront anyone on this issue. This kind of
answer is exactly why "angry members [don't] dare confront people", in
your words.
I don't think people have any problem with occasionals, it's when it's
frequent and visible that's the problem--and that doesn't even
necessarily mean it's the same people. When you come in to hack and
there's someone there, it makes little difference if it's the same
individual as last night or not. Perhaps this is a natural
consequence of the number of members there are now. But for me
anyway, it isn't targetted at anyone specific.
d00n
stop, it's the complete cowardly inability to confront issues directly
when they happen, and just whining about them on the mailing list
instead. I've seen quite a few of the people being very vocal on this
thread walk in and out past sleepers in the space as well and rarely
if ever pass comment or do anything about it at the time. If it pisses
you off, do something about it, or shut up.
I love the we "have better things to do then tell people to stop doing
stuff" excuse, which basically comes down to again "We really don't
have the balls to confront an issue directly, but we're definitely not
too busy to spend time arguing and complaining about it on the mailing
list"
Nor did I say I considered it a member benefit either, merely that on
rare occasions it's likely to happen. My point was that if it does
happen, don't expect peace or to be left. Hell, if you're there during
the no-trains period and working on something at a desk it's perfectly
possible to start drifting off without really realising it, and most
definitely not part of a plan to sleep there - most of the times
that's happened I'd have absolutely welcomed a gentle prod to remind
me to stay awake, and in fact most of the times this does happen is
because the space is so empty and quiet that there is no movement
around.
I don't agree with planned sleeping, as I commented before the
Hackspace is not a hostel, but every so often the occasional person
getting keyboard face after a long coding marathon is not the end of
the world, and is not being done to personally piss you off, and given
that they probably didn't intend to pass out at their desk, they
probably won't mind being woken up either by you, or by doorbot or
whatever. It has to be said that most of the people I've seen asleep
in this category are those who spend a lot of time actually
contributing to the space the most. I remember Phil doing all that
work on shelving for example, coming into the space after having
worked during the day, spending most of his own time in the night in
the workshop building shelves etc for you lot, and then yes,
understandably crashing out for an hour or two after essentially
spending a second working day's worth of time on improving the space.
As I've said, by all means if someone is taking the piss then take
action, but distinctions need to be made, and each situation treated
appropriately. Few I think would have begrudged Phil for example, but
it's far, far easier to criticise and complain about when you turn it
into a blanket generalisation about "those evil sleepers" and bundle
every single case together into one epic bitching fest.
I again think it's funny though how much outrage flies around on the
list about this kind of thing, and yet other issues like the credit
card one I mentioned barely get raised.
And Sol, please don't presume to make assumptions about what I do or
don't take for granted.
d00n
On Nov 17, 11:47 am, Charles Yarnold <charlesyarn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I find it incredible that people can have the opinion that its fine to do
> something that clearly inconveniences other users of the space and
> their response is "Well you can tell me to stop"
>
> Members have far more pressing, fun and interesting things to do than
> telling the person snoring on the sofas and smelling out the space that
> their being a dick, as most will know their doing that already.
>
> The space is open 24 hours so it can be used for its intended purpose 24
> hours a day, not so you can "hack till you drop". None of the space is a
> sleeping area, sleeping blocks other from using it.
>
> Quite frankly if not being able to sleep in the space would cause you to
> stop your membership that seems to show yo take it as a member benefit to
> sleep there.
>
> Sol
>
Charles Yarnold
d00n
On Nov 17, 6:55 pm, Charles Yarnold <charlesyarn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> d00n, reading your email seemed to show that, and when I commented on this
> I made sure to use "seems" to show I was not certain and interpreting you.
>
SheraDreaming
oh the irony.
right then this thread has pretty much gone off the rails....
Monty
phil jones
> http://www.zazzle.co.uk/cr/design/pt-shirt?dz=4eb13730-fdaa-4048-8faa-9c26a5371cfd&clone=true&pending=true&side_front=horz&style=basic_hooded_sweatshirt&color=white&size=a_l&context=mfong&view=front&side_back=horz
Now if you could print that on a Slanket :-) http://www.theslanket.com/ ...
phil
Monty
generator
On Nov 17, 7:43 pm, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Monty <monty...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >http://www.zazzle.co.uk/cr/design/pt-shirt?dz=4eb13730-fdaa-4048-8faa...
SheraDreaming
machine...yech!
phil jones
Nobody should have to be obliged to be confrontational or "courageous"
in order to resolve an issue they have in the space. This mailing list
IS one of the forums for public debate within the community and it
should be acceptable to use it to bring up issues and ask the
community for help.
As it happens, I'm fairly sympathetic to people sleeping in the space.
And I think the "piss-taker" label got wielded too early and too
indiscriminately. Frankly I don't know enough about who is sleeping
and why to want to denigrate them. But, equally, we shouldn't judge
people's real concerns by what level of discomfort they're prepared to
put up with in personally confronting other members.
phil
Ravi Kotecha
I know this won't work but I can't help noticing that on one hand you want some kind of deterant to people sleeping in the space and on the other you want people to clean the space ...
Nigel Worsley
Mark Steward
There's a big difference between being confrontational, and just
making an attempt at having a quiet, polite word with the person
bothering you before going to the mailing list all guns blazing.
Doesn't have to be be much, or laying the law down, and obviously if
the response is unreasonable or intimidating then obviously back off
and take it further through other routes, but an attempt should always
at least be made to address things with the people involved before
people start stamping their feet and demanding blanket bans on things.
> ...
>
> read more »
danny staple
way through a crunchy cockroach. Niiice. What was the (widely
misbelieved) statistic on the rate of spiders an adult person eats
while sleeping?
--
Nigel Worsley
Mark Steward
Monty
How true is that?
On Nov 17, 10:59 pm, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, the rule that Nottinghack have just added is worth checking out:
>
> http://wiki.nottinghack.org.uk/wiki/The_Space_is_Not_For_Sleeping
>
> Mark
>
>
> read more »
Mark Steward
Simon Howes
Just wondering - and not wanting to add another layer of software...
Maybe just have a paper book "register" of
Xxx slept in space date y justification z
Posters to inform when/where of sleeping
Maybe a record would let us get a better idea? Ease some tensions? Put a little bit of self-assessment pressure on?
And of course the honus would be on asking "did you sign the sleep offenders register?" ;)