Anyone in or near the space (sleepers again)
Mark Steward
will rapidly be getting hard to rouse. Nobody is answering the phone,
and I can't physically get to the space and back in time today to do
it myself.
Mark
Big Will
all this morning.
Someone, however, has been setting off Glados to the point where it
ruined our conversation and caused extreme annoyance. It was playing
the same message for seven or eight minutes!!
You should have Phil Roy's mobile numbers, yet you did not use these
before writing on the mailing list.
We are also astonished that you expect everyone to be continuously
reading the mailing list, we have other things to do with our time.
We all concur in this.
Tom, Phil, Will and Martin
ps
From my point of view, as a fee paying member, why exactly are you
asking me to wake someone who is not bothering me at all and cause
both of us grief. It isn't something that that I want to do.
Will
Adrian Godwin
>
> From my point of view, as a fee paying member, why exactly are you
> asking me to wake someone who is not bothering me at all and cause
> both of us grief. It isn't something that that I want to do.
>
SInce Mark's mail was addressed generally, you have no need to react
as though you have been instructed specifically.
However, as a member, how do you expect rules made for the benefit of
members to operate ? Is it your view that members have no
responsibility to the community beyond paying their fees ?
It would be helpful if you would investigate why the phone isn't ringing.
-adrian
Jonathan Stirling
instead of blaming the effect, try blaming the cause. I.e. People
breaking rules they are well aware of by sleeping when they have been
repeatedly told not to.
Ximin Luo
fuck out about this stupid rule.
The only reason this current case is being bitched about, is because the rule
exists. If it didn't exist, there would be no problem, because no sane person
would be actively monitoring the hackspace at 7am in the morning.
If sleepers cause problems, deal with those specific cases. Don't artificially
create problems for the rest of us by making up an overly-strict rule that
doesn't generalise at all, then attempting to enforce it when it inevitably
gets broken innocently.
SOPA/PIPA anyone?
X
--
GPG: 4096R/5FBBDBCE
https://github.com/infinity0
https://bitbucket.org/infinity0
https://launchpad.net/~infinity0
Aden
> There would be a lot less grief in general if everyone would just chill the
> fuck out about this stupid rule.
>
> The only reason this current case is being bitched about, is because the rule
> exists. If it didn't exist, there would be no problem, because no sane person
> would be actively monitoring the hackspace at 7am in the morning.
>
> If sleepers cause problems, deal with those specific cases. Don't artificially
> create problems for the rest of us by making up an overly-strict rule that
> doesn't generalise at all, then attempting to enforce it when it inevitably
> gets broken innocently.
>
> SOPA/PIPA anyone?
>
> X
>
needed to be tightened.
Just like SOPA/PIPA, people abused the internet, so now we need laws
to stop them.
Martin
Sorry but u'r tolling no longer works on us, tom has taken u'r hackspace troll crown
Russ Garrett
> If sleepers cause problems, deal with those specific cases. Don't artificially
> create problems for the rest of us by making up an overly-strict rule that
> doesn't generalise at all, then attempting to enforce it when it inevitably
> gets broken innocently.
We already tried this. It didn't work. We wouldn't have needed to make
the "overly-strict" rule if the less-strict rule worked fine.
Where do you draw the line between a sleeper who is causing problems
and one who isn't? Unfortunately a lot of people involved enjoy taking
the rules too literally, and didn't respond to us politely telling
them to stop.
If someone is in the space and sees someone asleep, it's going to
demonstrate to them that it's acceptable to sleep in the space; even
if the person is having a nap; even if the person is going to wake up
at 6am and continue hacking.
Several other hackerspaces have had the same problem as us, and
they've made the same decision to ban sleeping entirely, so we're not
alone here.
Over and above all this, it is illegal and it's against the terms of our lease.
Guys, I don't enjoy making these rules. I fucking hate making rules.
I'd only do this if I genuinely thought it was in the best interest of
the space.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Ximin Luo
> On 27 February 2012 20:16, Ximin Luo <infi...@gmx.com> wrote:
>> If sleepers cause problems, deal with those specific cases. Don't artificially
>> create problems for the rest of us by making up an overly-strict rule that
>> doesn't generalise at all, then attempting to enforce it when it inevitably
>> gets broken innocently.
>
> We already tried this. It didn't work. We wouldn't have needed to make
> the "overly-strict" rule if the less-strict rule worked fine.
>
In what way is the stricter version working any better than the more loose version?
If someone is being stubborn (about anything), at some point we'll need to
eject them by force. In that case there should be lots of justification as to
why that is being resorted to.
The problem when you justify it with "because it breaks rule X" is that this
sets precedent for everything that X could potentially cover, even the more
innocent cases which were previously allowed. This isn't a good route to go
down. OTOH, justifying it with more case-specific information gives less excuse
for future people to restrict more freedoms.
> Where do you draw the line between a sleeper who is causing problems
> and one who isn't? Unfortunately a lot of people involved enjoy taking
> the rules too literally, and didn't respond to us politely telling
> them to stop.
>
> If someone is in the space and sees someone asleep, it's going to
> demonstrate to them that it's acceptable to sleep in the space; even
> if the person is having a nap; even if the person is going to wake up
> at 6am and continue hacking.
>
> Several other hackerspaces have had the same problem as us, and
> they've made the same decision to ban sleeping entirely, so we're not
> alone here.
>
> Over and above all this, it is illegal and it's against the terms of our lease.
>
Please elaborate? Does it still apply to e.g. one-off sleepers who missed the
last train?
> Guys, I don't enjoy making these rules. I fucking hate making rules.
> I'd only do this if I genuinely thought it was in the best interest of
> the space.
>
--
tom
rule itself.
i'm struggling to understand wht you want to allow a behaviour that
pisses people off, makes them uncomfortable and is *in violation of
our lease*.
i wouldnt expect to sleep on the floor of a pub/gym/cinema i'd been in
all night if i miss my train, why should the space be any different?
On Feb 27, 10:00 pm, Ximin Luo <infini...@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 27/02/12 21:18, Russ Garrett wrote:
>
> < 1KViewDownload
Ximin Luo
> Blame the piss-taking that led to this rule being created, not the
> rule itself.
>
Blame pirates, not SOPA?
> i'm struggling to understand wht you want to allow a behaviour that
> pisses people off, makes them uncomfortable and is *in violation of
> our lease*.
>
Was my last email not clear enough? Maybe you should try harder? As for the
lease, I have not heard it explained in a satisfactory way that *prevents all
sleeping* in the same way this rule is.
> i wouldnt expect to sleep on the floor of a pub/gym/cinema i'd been in
> all night if i miss my train, why should the space be any different?
>
Common rooms, e.g. in university.
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
- From now on I will be coming to the space is various forms of undressed-ness!
I don't care if that pisses people off, because the continuous sleeping pisses me.
Ximin Luo: Is this acceptable? How about if I continuously call you a nasty name? Or maybe I continue throwing paper balls at your head?
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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Charles Yarnold
Ximin Luo
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Ximin Luo <infi...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> If they are still doing it, then clearly the stricter rule isn't working either.
>>
>
> Too early to tell. It's being applied now. But the grief you see is
> precisely the ramping up of weight of opinion vs. resistance to a rule
> that has been created with good reason but doesn't suit some people.
> This is a community with peer pressure, and ultimately only one
> sanction; we don't have a goon squad to march in.
>
If individuals don't like a particular sleeper they are free to disassociate
with them. This is the case whether we have rules or not.
I'm not sure what other "sanction" you could be talking about. The rule isn't
going to magically make everyone change their minds to conform to the rule, and
apply appropriate peer pressure according to that, rather than their own
subjective morals.
>> However, the stricter rule might be used to intimidate other people from doing
>> more innocent forms of sleeping.
>>
>
> Yes, it is, and that's intentional, if intimidate's the right word.
> All sleeping is discouraged fairly vigorously, because without it you
> have to make a transparent judgement over whether someone's taking the
> piss or has genuinely accidentally screwed up. The alternative, of
> subjective judgements leading to accusations of favoritism and
> nepotism is not attractive.
>
This will happen whether the rule exists or not. You might think "sleep" is
pretty unambiguous, but it will be enforced unevenly and subjectively, because
seriously who is going to eject/revoke someone that naps for 20 minutes.
> I'm not actually any sort of 'person in charge', such as we have them.
> But I support that policy because I think it's fairer and more
> equitable than any alternative I can think of, even though it
> inconveniences me personally.
>
> I'm responding to you because you clearly feel that the restriction is
> too large a problem to be worth applying, but the solutions you are
> suggesting are ones that I feel we've already explored fairly
> thoroughly. I am more than happy to explain what went wrong in more
> detail if you want to hear it, and listen to your suggestions of
> better ways to tackle it. But be warned that I may appear negative. We
> really have already tried quite hard to solve it without being
> draconic, and are not going to repeat something that has already
> failed.
>
> -adrian
OK, I'd be happy to hear the situation as it's developed over the past few months.
Some suggestions:
- instead of, or as well as, the "NO SLEEPING" sign, place posters that explain
why significant sleeping is generally a bad idea. this gives a clear indicator
to visitors that it's frowned upon.
- place more importance on the opinions of those people who are actually
affected by a particular case, rather than people talking in abstract terms.
- keep a log of incidents. if someone keeps cropping up, make whatever threats
needed to stop them from doing it, just you would under the strict rule.
- if enough people wade in to defend them, perhaps rethink your viewpoint.
This is of course discounting the legal issue. But people should shut up about
that unless they actually know what the legal issue is.
X
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
Who said anything about swearing?
I see that behaviour as a) being a dick, and b) not being nice and nice hackspace member etiquette...
∙ Do not treat the Hackspace like your home, it is a shared space.
For all this talk of "we love the hackspace, blah blah community is great" the argument that *seems* to be made is " leave us alone we want to do what we want to do" even if its counter-productive to that hackspace community you love oh so much.
Sometimes, no matter what *YOU* want to do, you *SHOULD* do what is better for the *WHOLE* group, not just what is better for *YOU*.
I say *SHOULD* of course, as we are all human beings with (supposed) free will, and we'll do what_ever_the_fuck_we_want. And thats where the problems start.
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Ximin Luo
> Who said anything about swearing?
>
> I see that behaviour as a) being a dick, and b) not being nice and nice hackspace member etiquette...
How is making a rule to "don't do X" where X is indirectly related to being a
dick some cases, but innocent in other cases, going to prevent someone from
being a dick?
I went for the shorter version the first time round but apparently you're
unable to generalise it to the abstract issue we're talking about.
>
> ∙ Do not treat the Hackspace like your home, it is a shared space.
>
>
> For all this talk of "we love the hackspace, blah blah community is great" the argument that *seems* to be made is " leave us alone we want to do what we want to do" even if its counter-productive to that hackspace community you love oh so much.
>
> Sometimes, no matter what *YOU* want to do, you *SHOULD* do what is better for the *WHOLE* group, not just what is better for *YOU*.
>
> I say *SHOULD* of course, as we are all human beings with (supposed) free will, and we'll do what_ever_the_fuck_we_want. And thats where the problems start.
>
>
--
Alison W
to sleep but don't want to travel home.
And there are quite a few near the space (or a taxi can be called if
you really cannot walk there)
Plus they will welcome you to a big bed with clean sheets, a hot
shower, and even breakfast if you want it.
It's called a hotel.
EI8FDB
Hash: SHA1
Ok you know what man, I give up. You're right, everyone else is wrong.
I really couldn't give a shit anymore. I wasted enough time listening to your ramblings last night on IRC.
I will just reiterate once more, since you seem to have missed it, or chose to ignore it:
>> Sometimes, no matter what *YOU* want to do, you *SHOULD* do what is better for the *WHOLE* group, not just what is better for *YOU*.
I really don't give a fuck what you do. Anchor yourself from the fucking ceiling in a sleeping bag for all I care. Clearly you don't want to, or are incapable of, comprehending the bigger picture here.
And when you grow a few years older, you'll figure it out.
=====
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org
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tom
Alison, we tried putting up signs with local cheap hostels around the
space but they mysteriously* vanished
*torn down by captain imanasshole
Will Pearson
> - instead of, or as well as, the "NO SLEEPING" sign, place posters that explain
why significant sleeping is generally a bad idea. this gives a clear
indicator
to visitors that it's frowned upon.
recently a sign with a clearer "No sleeping" message. Both were taken
down by persons unknown. I doubt further signage/posters will survive.
One thing we haven't tried yet is a face to face public meeting to get
this all into the open. Not a vote, just a discussion. It is a lot
harder to insult people face to face.
Will
Gausie
sleepers when they're not even in the hackspace. You all seriously
just need to chill out.
There is of course a lot to be said for not sleeping in the space, but
I find far more worrying the way some members (Mark in this case) are
reacting to infractions.
Just to repeat: chill out.
Gausie
Charles Yarnold
Ximin,
You were just informed if the legal situation by one of the directors that is legally responsible for the space, telling him to shut up about it isn't a smart comment to make.
Charles (also legally responsible)
Ximin Luo
On 27/02/12 23:51, Charles Yarnold wrote:
> Ximin,
>
> You were just informed if the legal situation by one of the directors that is
> legally responsible for the space, telling him to shut up about it isn't a
> smart comment to make.
>
> Charles (also legally responsible)
>
> On Feb 27, 2012 10:42 PM, "Ximin Luo" <infi...@gmx.com
Tim Reynolds
to happen. Sometimes this is at lunchtime and sometimes this is in the
middle of the night.
Cool things to see:
* Cesar building a boat.
* Phil covered in piles of CAT5
Uncool things to see:
* A homeless shelter.
Walking into the hackspace and being hit with the atmosphere of a
teenagers bedroom is shitty.
When you join the hackspace you agree to the articles of constitution
(https://london.hackspace.org.uk/organisation/docs/articles.pdf)
This constitution grants the directors the right to impose rules and
bylaws upon the membership (section 57, if you want to have a look)
The directors have recently clarified the rule on sleeping. It's not
allowed. At all. For any reason. No matter what you've done for the
hackspace. It is against the terms of the lease.
Read the text of the rule here:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Sleeping_in_Hackspace
What more argument is there? Please tell me where there is a point to be
argued.
Akki
> I think it's really sad that people are checking the webcams for
> sleepers when they're not even in the hackspace. You all seriously
> just need to chill out.
is... and there were two people who had taken basically all the chairs
in the main room and were sleeping across them (this was admittedly a
few months ago but it is the original bee in my bonnet on the
matter).
Seeing people sleeping on the cam makes me think twice about setting
out to go to the Space as it costs me a fair amount of money and time
to get to the Space.
~Akki
Russ Garrett
and I really appreciate your questioning here.
On 27 February 2012 22:00, Ximin Luo <infi...@gmx.com> wrote:
> In what way is the stricter version working any better than the more loose version?
>
> If someone is being stubborn (about anything), at some point we'll need to
> eject them by force. In that case there should be lots of justification as to
> why that is being resorted to.
And at that point, unfortunately, these people will go "That wasn't in
the rules I agreed to when I signed up!" Some people unfortunately
need it to be made abundantly clear what is and what isn't acceptable.
The larger we get, the more difficult it gets to enforce the "don't be
a dick" rule, so this is one case where we've decided it's easier to
make a strong, unambiguous rule. We are absolutely not going to start
making rules for everything - as I've said, I hate making rules - but
sleeping in the space is an unusual case, I think.
As I mentioned before, we've had quiet words with a lot of people
who've been sleeping in the space. Some people have capitulated, and
some people have just ignored us.
At 1am, everyone is tired, and nobody minds someone going to sleep on
the sofa. At 10am when someone comes in ready to start the day, and
there are people asleep everywhere, it's offputting. This isn't just
my opinion, a lot of people have said similar things to us, in private
and in public. We know it's putting people off coming to the space,
and that's unacceptable.
> The problem when you justify it with "because it breaks rule X" is that this
> sets precedent for everything that X could potentially cover, even the more
> innocent cases which were previously allowed. This isn't a good route to go
> down.
Yup, I absolutely agree in general. But I'd like to argue that
sleeping is a special case. Nobody likes waking sleeping people up,
and we can't change that. If someone falls asleep in the early
morning, nobody around minds. But if people are put off coming to the
space, or put off working in the space, because someone is still
sleeping on the sofa at 11am, then that's unacceptable.
It's not reasonable to force people to wake up other people who they
don't know, just so they can get work done.
> Please elaborate? Does it still apply to e.g. one-off sleepers who missed the
> last train?
OK, I really don't want to push the legal aspect because I think my
previous argument holds more weight and isn't so much of an
argument-to-authority. I also don't think there's much problem with
*occasional* sleeping. However, my interpretation is:
1) Fire regulations (Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005): If
we condoned/allowed sleeping, we would be required to do a much more
comprehensive risk assessment, which we do not have. (I suspect it
would be impossible to reasonably allow sleeping in Cremer Street
under this law, because the building does not have a sufficient fire
alarm system.) The directors would be personally (and possibly
criminally) liable for this.
2) Town and Country Planning Act/Lease: our building is classified
B1/B2 (office/light industrial) under the planning regulations. That
means we are not allowed to use it as residential accommodation, and
the council can enforce this (which would most likely result in a
breach of the terms of our lease, as well as probably a fine).
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Benjamin Blundell
--
(>) SECTION9 * Benjamin Blundell * Digital Creative * London & Manchester
(>) o...@section9.co.uk * www.section9.co.uk
(>) www.twitter.com/secti0n9 * www.flickr.com/photos/section9
Spike (Chris Foote)
Spike
Sam Cook
Ximin Luo
I have never slept in the hackspace, and whole-vs-individual is completely
irrelevant to the point at hand.
"herp derp someone doesn't like rules, must be an angsty teenager. LALALALA."
Ximin Luo
I have never slept in the hackspace, and whole-vs-individual is completely
irrelevant to the point at hand.
"herp derp someone doesn't like rules, must be an angsty teenager. LALALALA."
On 27/02/12 23:04, EI8FDB wrote:
tom
do the trolling round here thankyouverymuch
On Feb 27, 11:08 pm, Ximin Luo <infini...@gmx.com> wrote:
> Holy shit you need to get your facts straight and get off your high horse.
>
> I have never slept in the hackspace, and whole-vs-individual is completely
> irrelevant to the point at hand.
>
> "herp derp someone doesn't like rules, must be an angsty teenager. LALALALA."
>
> On 27/02/12 23:04, EI8FDB wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ok you know what man, I give up. You're right, everyone else is wrong.
>
> > I really couldn't give a shit anymore. I wasted enough time listening to your ramblings last night on IRC.
>
> > I will just reiterate once more, since you seem to have missed it, or chose to ignore it:
>
> >>> Sometimes, no matter what *YOU* want to do, you *SHOULD* do what is better for the *WHOLE* group, not just what is better for *YOU*.
>
> > I really don't give a fuck what you do. Anchor yourself from the fucking ceiling in a sleeping bag for all I care. Clearly you don't want to, or are incapable of, comprehending the bigger picture here.
>
> > And when you grow a few years older, you'll figure it out.
>
> > On 27 Feb 2012, at 22:56, Ximin Luo wrote:
>
> >> On 27/02/12 22:53, EI8FDB wrote:
> >>> Who said anything about swearing?
>
> >>> I see that behaviour as a) being a dick, and b) not being nice and nice hackspace member etiquette...
>
> >> How is making a rule to "don't do X" where X is indirectly related to being a
> >> dick some cases, but innocent in other cases, going to prevent someone from
> >> being a dick?
>
> >> I went for the shorter version the first time round but apparently you're
> >> unable to generalise it to the abstract issue we're talking about.
>
> >>> For all this talk of "we love the hackspace, blah blah community is great" the argument that *seems* to be made is " leave us alone we want to do what we want to do" even if its counter-productive to that hackspace community you love oh so much.
>
> >>> Sometimes, no matter what *YOU* want to do, you *SHOULD* do what is better for the *WHOLE* group, not just what is better for *YOU*.
>
> >>> I say *SHOULD* of course, as we are all human beings with (supposed) free will, and we'll do what_ever_the_fuck_we_want. And thats where the problems start.
>
> >> --
> >> GPG: 4096R/5FBBDBCE
> >>https://github.com/infinity0
> >>https://bitbucket.org/infinity0
> >>https://launchpad.net/~infinity0
>
> > =====
> > Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb
> > IO91XM /www.ei8fdb.org
>
Paddy Duncan
twat looks like...
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4836 - Release Date: 02/27/12
Mark Steward
Please let's keep ad-hominems off the list. All emails go to over 1000 people.
Mark
Russ Garrett
this conversation into a hideous flamewar. You have no moral high
ground any more.
Ximin is the first person to come onto this list with a half-decent,
reasoned, argument against the sleeping rule.
And you wonder why people start unilaterally breaking rules without
asking the list first?
I'm ashamed of being involved with this community today. You won't see
me at the space tonight. Dicks.
Russ
Sam Cook
Jenett Tillotson
This is a pretty difficult issue, and one that we have yet to face in our space. This was brought up at one time in our space, and we all agreed to let it fall under the "be excellent to each other" rule. If you're sleeping in the space and making others uncomfortable, smelling up the place, or causing us issues with our landlord, that's not very excellent. However, if you have been hacking all night and are unable to drive home, sleeping in the space is allowable, although frowned upon and you should not make it a habit.
None of this is written down as we all felt it fell neatly in the be excellent to each other rule. However, we only have 20 paying members and about 50 total active participants, so we aren't facing this issue like you guys are.
I just wanted to reiterate what Mark said and remind you that anyone can join. Although email can seem private, you should argue with each other as you would in a public forum. Imagine getting on stage and reading your email aloud while the recipients are in the audience. That'll help set the tone.
Jenett
Kirsten Skillen
Well said to jenette
I find all of this so sad that people and place so inspiring to me last year has seem to have imploded with issues on web cams and sleepers and to be honest lack of respect when i last came to the space it was really heartbreaking the state it was in.