> >> a lot of people who I open the door to while in the space are generally
> >> members who
> >> have popped out to smoke or go to the shop

> > If they actually ARE members then why aren't they using their card
> instead
> > of making
> > someone else get up and open the door for them?

> > Nigle

> Yes. Again, a problem that can be easily tackled if we know the facts.

> Do you have a card now ?

> In case you don't, the procedure is to use your Oyster card (there are
> other methods if you don't have one). There's a simple procedure you
> can go through using Lovelace, the public terminal, to enable it to
> open the door.

> -adrian

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Ulisses Pinto <pinto.ulis...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> > I'm a member of the hackspace for 3 months and I was ringing at the door
> > when it wasn't already opened since until this discussion about members
> and
> > non members happened I wasn't even aware that members were supposed to
> have
> > an access card. Nobody told me it, so I just assumed that ringing at the
> > door was the normal procedure.
> > Fortunately it didn't happen so many times, as I only went to the 3D
> > Printers and Arduino meetings, and most times the door was already opened
> > anyway.
> > Maybe one should send cards by post to new members, so that this doesn't
> > happen to others.

> > On 24 October 2012 15:38, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Martin (Crypt) wrote:

> >> >> a lot of people who I open the door to while in the space are
> generally
> >> >> members who
> >> >> have popped out to smoke or go to the shop

> >> > If they actually ARE members then why aren't they using their card
> >> > instead
> >> > of making
> >> > someone else get up and open the door for them?

> >> > Nigle

> >> Yes. Again, a problem that can be easily tackled if we know the facts.

> I've seen this quite a bit at hackspace whereby the person opening
> just walks away, sometimes without saying a word. It is saddening to
> wander around and see a lost-looking person just standing around
> especially if they've been let in rather than walking in through an
> open door. I don't know how to solve this problem, except perhaps for
> having a sign on the door telling people how to welcome guests. But
> then I've also heard it expressed that there are too many notices
> around and so the message is often lost in the noise. Does anyone have
> any suggestions? (less flippant than "Learn some social skills!" very
> much preferred)

> The 2 or 3 times someone answered the door, nobody asked me if I was a
> member, nor explained how to use a card; they just looked annoyed that I
> was interrupting them by ringing the door, but didn't actually say anything.

> I don't have a card yet, but it's great to know that one can use an Oyster
> card for that. I'll register it tonight.

> The 2 or 3 times someone answered the door, nobody asked me if I was a
> member, nor explained how to use a card; they just looked annoyed that I
> was interrupting them by ringing the door, but didn't actually say anything.

> I don't have a card yet, but it's great to know that one can use an Oyster
> card for that. I'll register it tonight.

> On 24 October 2012 15:56, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> So if someone had answered the door, asked if you were a member, and
>> then explained how to use a card, you'd have been delighted,
>> presumably ?

>> Do you have a card now ?

>> In case you don't, the procedure is to use your Oyster card (there are
>> other methods if you don't have one). There's a simple procedure you
>> can go through using Lovelace, the public terminal, to enable it to
>> open the door.

>> -adrian

>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Ulisses Pinto <pinto.ulis...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:

>> > I'm a member of the hackspace for 3 months and I was ringing at the door
>> > when it wasn't already opened since until this discussion about members
>> and
>> > non members happened I wasn't even aware that members were supposed to
>> have
>> > an access card. Nobody told me it, so I just assumed that ringing at the
>> > door was the normal procedure.
>> > Fortunately it didn't happen so many times, as I only went to the 3D
>> > Printers and Arduino meetings, and most times the door was already
>> opened
>> > anyway.
>> > Maybe one should send cards by post to new members, so that this doesn't
>> > happen to others.

>> > On 24 October 2012 15:38, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Martin (Crypt) wrote:

>> >> >> a lot of people who I open the door to while in the space are
>> generally
>> >> >> members who
>> >> >> have popped out to smoke or go to the shop

>> >> > If they actually ARE members then why aren't they using their card
>> >> > instead
>> >> > of making
>> >> > someone else get up and open the door for them?

>> >> > Nigle

>> >> Yes. Again, a problem that can be easily tackled if we know the facts.

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Ulisses Pinto <pinto....@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:

>> Sure, of course I would prefer to use a card if someone explained how to
>> do so. I never asked anyone to explain me how to get/register a card since
>> I didn't know I was supposed to have a card in the first place.

>> The 2 or 3 times someone answered the door, nobody asked me if I was a
>> member, nor explained how to use a card; they just looked annoyed that I
>> was interrupting them by ringing the door, but didn't actually say anything.

>> I don't have a card yet, but it's great to know that one can use an
>> Oyster card for that. I'll register it tonight.

> this is actually fantastic feedback and exactly why it's good that we
> didn't stop at the earlier assertions that "we know the problems"

> Actually a short "new members" handbook might be useful, it's great saying
> "read the wiki" but unless you know where to look or that there's a page to
> find it's not much use.

> even just printing out the "Membership" page from the wiki + a few other
> things and putting it somewhere clear or  handing it out to any new or
> prospective members might be good.

> this just strikes me as almost worthy of politicians. There's a
> vague possible group of others, people not like us, scroungers who we think
> must be **taking advantage of us** somehow. thus we must become more closed
> and hostile to outsiders, increase the cost and challenege people to prove
> that they're not part of this vague group of scroungers.

> > Ideally a new member manual that can be issued along with this email.
>   A PDF is fine, but hard-copies in the space would be lovely.
>   Nottinghack have a beautiful one if you'd like an example of this.

> I'm happy to volunteer to help in the production of a new member manual as
> a print ready pdf* although I'd love others to help me with suggestions for
> the content.

> If there are no objections, I'll start a second thread dedicated just to
> this topic.

> If you felt lost when you first joined please go to share anecdotes on the
> new thread of what you found most confusing.

> If you have very strong feelings about what needs to be in the document,
> please jump in as well.

> I'll use the Nottinghack manual as a starting point.

> (* happy to use produce formats too like epub)

> On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:01:07 UTC+1, Jonty Wareing wrote:

>> Afternoon all,

>> I've been putting off dealing with this thread as I assumed it would
>> cause me to have some form of embolism, but I have to reiterate
>> Martind's statement from before: Thank you for a reasoned discussion on
>> the mailing list. This is actually rather lovely.

>> The meat of this email is going to address issues brought up in this
>> thread:

>> * 1. Making the space members only aside from Tuesdays

>> As has been brought up by several people in this thread, without stating
>> exactly the problem it fixes, or how it does so. It can be a few things,
>> and I suspect they vary amongst the people supporting it:

>> a) Non-members using the space too much

>> We're well on the way to implementing access control that limits all the
>> major facilities to trained members only, or being the direct guest of
>> a member. I have a very strong feeling that this will completely kill any
>> non-members using the workshop unless they have a member working with
>> them, which is ideal.

>> Secondarily we need to be identifying people using the space excessively
>> and prodding them to become members. Recently people have been getting
>> in touch with the trustees (thanks!) to let us know about offenders and
>> they have been warned subsequently. This point is addressed in (c).

>> b) Non-members are making a mess and not clearing up

>> AFAIK this is entirely true of members too. Limiting tools prevents
>> this, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of members seem to like
>> living in a sty.

>> c) I hate answering the door all the time

>> This is three things, firstly we don't channel people towards Tuesday
>> nights as strongly as a we should, secondly a fair number of members do
>> not have RFID cards for accessing the space, and thirdly we have some
>> people who may not be members that need to be encouraged to become
>> members, either via talking to them directly, or changing the space so
>> it becomes less useful to non-members.

>> Note, less useful does not mean members-only. It just means making
>> elements of the space unavailable without membership or a member who is
>> feeling generous.

>> I suspect that this is the primary problem we have right now. It seems
>> silly, but I totally agree that it can be incredibly irritating.

>> Without further data this becomes difficult to address, so I am pitching
>> the idea of attaching a sign-in book to the door. If you let someone in
>> who does not have a card, get them to write their name on the sheet.
>> This allows us to get a rough idea of people making repeat visits, and
>> a rough idea of how many are not members.

>> * 2. Member tool lockdown (Hey, look, I'm on #2!)

>> I'm going to outline the current plan for this, as it seems many people
>> do not understand the situation.

>> In the very near future we are planning to introduce RFID locks to all
>> the major tools in the space, starting with the laser cutter and 3-in-1.
>> These will be linked to your member card, and only members will be able
>> to use the tools.

>> - To use a tool, place your card in the RFID box to turn it on.
>> - When you are done with a tool, take your card out of the RFID box.

>> By default you will not be allowed to use any of the tools unless you
>> have been trained on it, and your card given access by someone who has
>> the training bit flipped. This prevents both bad training, and people
>> who are "really clever" using tools they actually don't know how to
>> use.

>> As a secondary, it tells us how often the tool is being used, and if the
>> tool is damaged (there is a report fault button on the unit) we can ask
>> the person who was using it before what happened.

>> I would also like to obtain a small set of lockers to place expensive or
>> fragile tools/equipment in, mainly to ensure people are using them when
>> they have been trained. The wood chisels are excellent examples of this.

>> If you would like to help with this, please get in touch, we need more
>> people writing code and testing the prototype hardware (which we may
>> also sell as kits to other spaces).

>> * 3. New member introductions / Community induction

>> Right now we are absolutely terrible at bringing new people into the
>> community and making them aware of how it functions. In this thread we
>> had a paying member state they didn't know about RFID access, which has
>> truly hit this home to me.

>> There is a minimal list of things that need sorting for this:

>> - A welcome email to be sent to new members, stating how the space runs,
>>   and the rules.
>> - Ideally a new member manual that can be issued along with this email.
>>   A PDF is fine, but hard-copies in the space would be lovely.
>>   Nottinghack have a beautiful one if you'd like an example of this.
>> - Every new member should be given a tour of the space by someone, and
>>   this tour should be tailored to the member. Ideally they should be
>>   introduced to people who they share interests with, or people they can
>>   learn from. Right now our tours range from excellent to astonishingly
>>   shocking, I have had to give huge numbers of people a SECOND tour
>>   because the first one told them nothing at all and they didn't
>>   understand what was going on.
>> - So that implies we need an actual tour guide. As in a guide for people
>>   giving tours.

>> I genuinely think we should limit tour giving to Tuesday nights, unless
>> the person has made arrangements to come at another time. It's unfair to
>> impinge on random members when visitors arrive at arbitrary times of the
>> day. Ideally I'd like to get a list of people up who would like to
>> introduce people to the space, and get some documentation written up.

>> Secondly, it is very hard to get help in the space right now. If you're
>> a new member you have no idea who to approach, and doing so can be a
>> scary experience. I'd love to get a he...@london.hackspace.org.uk email
>> address up that fires off to a group of people who are willing to assist
>> new members.

>> * 4. Changing the space, talking about the space

>> I would like to propose monthly state-of-the-space public meetings for
>> all members, to discuss issues and changes that should be made to the
>> space. These should possibly not be in the space itself, but that is up
>> for debate.

>> We also need to resurrect the weekly news email that goes to every
>> paying member, it is an excellent way of distributing information about
>> the space. We need a high-signal communication mechanism with all our
>> members.

>> * 5. Moving space

>> We have plenty of money in the bank to move space, that is not a problem.
>> The issue is absolutely around finding a suitable space, as we have very
>> specific requirements. If you can spare time, please help.

>> * 6. Everything is broken why is nobody fixing it oh god why

>> Right now we are having serious trouble maintaining the tools and
>> equipment in the space, mainly because of the sheer amount of use they
>> get, but secondarily because people don't say anything when the
>> equipment breaks, and thirdly people don't help to get it repaired.

>> The space has money to replace equipment, tools and supplies, it just
>> requires people taking the time to find a suitable replacement and order
>> it. Sometimes the trustees are incapable of doing this without member
>> assistance because we lack experience in the area - see the welder
>> replacement, we're waiting on an OK-GO from the people who use the
>> welders that the replacement we found is acceptable.

>> I would really like to see people stepping up and forming small teams
>> around tools in the space that they use often - we've already seen this
>> happen with the laser cutter, 3-in-1 and the internet connection.

>> I would also like to get standing orders in place for consumables that
>> we burn through each month, such as M4 bolts and welding gas. This just
>> requires someone taking the time to make a list and find a supplier.

>> * 7. (Unspoken) The trustees should be banning/warning more people

>> We agree. We'd really like to be kicking the bottom of anyone who is
>> causing problems in the space, and we have been frequently doing so in
>> the last two months.

>> HOWEVER, we can't do this without members telling us that something is
>> wrong, or someone is causing problems. We exist to carry out the wishes
>> of the members, and unless we are informed nothing will happen.

>> If you see someone abusing the space, or another member, please email
>> trus...@london.hackspace.org.uk immediately. Do not assume someone else
>> has done it, they

> Akki, sorry missed your post - I don't want to step on your toes so please
> don't let me and take this over or invite me to work with you as you prefer
> :)

> On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 20:07:17 UTC+1, Tim Hardy wrote:

>> > Ideally a new member manual that can be issued along with this email.
>>   A PDF is fine, but hard-copies in the space would be lovely.
>>   Nottinghack have a beautiful one if you'd like an example of this.

>> I'm happy to volunteer to help in the production of a new member manual
>> as a print ready pdf* although I'd love others to help me with suggestions
>> for the content.

>> If there are no objections, I'll start a second thread dedicated just to
>> this topic.

>> If you felt lost when you first joined please go to share anecdotes on
>> the new thread of what you found most confusing.

>> If you have very strong feelings about what needs to be in the document,
>> please jump in as well.

>> I'll use the Nottinghack manual as a starting point.

>> (* happy to use produce formats too like epub)

>> On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:01:07 UTC+1, Jonty Wareing wrote:

>>> Afternoon all,

>>> I've been putting off dealing with this thread as I assumed it would
>>> cause me to have some form of embolism, but I have to reiterate
>>> Martind's statement from before: Thank you for a reasoned discussion on
>>> the mailing list. This is actually rather lovely.

>>> The meat of this email is going to address issues brought up in this
>>> thread:

>>> * 1. Making the space members only aside from Tuesdays

>>> As has been brought up by several people in this thread, without stating
>>> exactly the problem it fixes, or how it does so. It can be a few things,
>>> and I suspect they vary amongst the people supporting it:

>>> a) Non-members using the space too much

>>> We're well on the way to implementing access control that limits all the
>>> major facilities to trained members only, or being the direct guest of
>>> a member. I have a very strong feeling that this will completely kill
>>> any
>>> non-members using the workshop unless they have a member working with
>>> them, which is ideal.

>>> Secondarily we need to be identifying people using the space excessively
>>> and prodding them to become members. Recently people have been getting
>>> in touch with the trustees (thanks!) to let us know about offenders and
>>> they have been warned subsequently. This point is addressed in (c).

>>> b) Non-members are making a mess and not clearing up

>>> AFAIK this is entirely true of members too. Limiting tools prevents
>>> this, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of members seem to like
>>> living in a sty.

>>> c) I hate answering the door all the time

>>> This is three things, firstly we don't channel people towards Tuesday
>>> nights as strongly as a we should, secondly a fair number of members do
>>> not have RFID cards for accessing the space, and thirdly we have some
>>> people who may not be members that need to be encouraged to become
>>> members, either via talking to them directly, or changing the space so
>>> it becomes less useful to non-members.

>>> Note, less useful does not mean members-only. It just means making
>>> elements of the space unavailable without membership or a member who is
>>> feeling generous.

>>> I suspect that this is the primary problem we have right now. It seems
>>> silly, but I totally agree that it can be incredibly irritating.

>>> Without further data this becomes difficult to address, so I am pitching
>>> the idea of attaching a sign-in book to the door. If you let someone in
>>> who does not have a card, get them to write their name on the sheet.
>>> This allows us to get a rough idea of people making repeat visits, and
>>> a rough idea of how many are not members.

>>> * 2. Member tool lockdown (Hey, look, I'm on #2!)

>>> I'm going to outline the current plan for this, as it seems many people
>>> do not understand the situation.

>>> In the very near future we are planning to introduce RFID locks to all
>>> the major tools in the space, starting with the laser cutter and 3-in-1.
>>> These will be linked to your member card, and only members will be able
>>> to use the tools.

>>> - To use a tool, place your card in the RFID box to turn it on.
>>> - When you are done with a tool, take your card out of the RFID box.

>>> By default you will not be allowed to use any of the tools unless you
>>> have been trained on it, and your card given access by someone who has
>>> the training bit flipped. This prevents both bad training, and people
>>> who are "really clever" using tools they actually don't know how to
>>> use.

>>> As a secondary, it tells us how often the tool is being used, and if the
>>> tool is damaged (there is a report fault button on the unit) we can ask
>>> the person who was using it before what happened.

>>> I would also like to obtain a small set of lockers to place expensive or
>>> fragile tools/equipment in, mainly to ensure people are using them when
>>> they have been trained. The wood chisels are excellent examples of this.

>>> If you would like to help with this, please get in touch, we need more
>>> people writing code and testing the prototype hardware (which we may
>>> also sell as kits to other spaces).

>>> * 3. New member introductions / Community induction

>>> Right now we are absolutely terrible at bringing new people into the
>>> community and making them aware of how it functions. In this thread we
>>> had a paying member state they didn't know about RFID access, which has
>>> truly hit this home to me.

>>> There is a minimal list of things that need sorting for this:

>>> - A welcome email to be sent to new members, stating how the space runs,
>>>   and the rules.
>>> - Ideally a new member manual that can be issued along with this email.
>>>   A PDF is fine, but hard-copies in the space would be lovely.
>>>   Nottinghack have a beautiful one if you'd like an example of this.
>>> - Every new member should be given a tour of the space by someone, and
>>>   this tour should be tailored to the member. Ideally they should be
>>>   introduced to people who they share interests with, or people they can
>>>   learn from. Right now our tours range from excellent to astonishingly
>>>   shocking, I have had to give huge numbers of people a SECOND tour
>>>   because the first one told them nothing at all and they didn't
>>>   understand what was going on.
>>> - So that implies we need an actual tour guide. As in a guide for people
>>>   giving tours.

>>> I genuinely think we should limit tour giving to Tuesday nights, unless
>>> the person has made arrangements to come at another time. It's unfair to
>>> impinge on random members when visitors arrive at arbitrary times of the
>>> day. Ideally I'd like to get a list of people up who would like to
>>> introduce people to the space, and get some documentation written up.

>>> Secondly, it is very hard to get help in the space right now. If you're
>>> a new member you have no idea who to approach, and doing so can be a
>>> scary experience. I'd love to get a he...@london.hackspace.org.uk email
>>> address up that fires off to a group of people who are willing to assist
>>> new members.

>>> * 4. Changing the space, talking about the space

>>> I would like to propose monthly state-of-the-space public meetings for
>>> all members, to discuss issues and changes that should be made to the
>>> space. These should possibly not be in the space itself, but that is up
>>> for debate.

>>> We also need to resurrect the weekly news email that goes to every
>>> paying member, it is an excellent way of distributing information about
>>> the space. We need a high-signal communication mechanism with all our
>>> members.

>>> * 5. Moving space

>>> We have plenty of money in the bank to move space, that is not a
>>> problem.
>>> The issue is absolutely around finding a suitable space, as we have very
>>> specific requirements. If you can spare time, please help.

>>> * 6. Everything is broken why is nobody fixing it oh god why

>>> Right now we are having serious trouble maintaining the tools and
>>> equipment in the space, mainly because of the sheer amount of use they
>>> get, but secondarily because people don't say anything when the
>>> equipment breaks, and thirdly people don't help to get it repaired.

>>> The space has money to replace equipment, tools and supplies, it just
>>> requires people taking the time to find a suitable replacement and order
>>> it. Sometimes the trustees are incapable of doing this without member
>>> assistance because we lack experience in the area - see the welder
>>> replacement, we're waiting on an OK-GO from the people who use the
>>> welders that the replacement we found is acceptable.

>>> I would really like to see people stepping up and forming small teams
>>> around tools in the space that they use often - we've already seen this
>>> happen with the laser cutter, 3-in-1 and the internet connection.

>>> I would also like to get standing orders in place for consumables that
>>> we burn through each month, such as M4 bolts and welding gas. This just
>>> requires someone taking the time to make a list and find a supplier.

>>> * 7. (Unspoken) The trustees should be banning/warning more people

>>> We agree. We'd really like to be kicking the bottom of anyone who is
>>> causing problems in the