Don't leave tools turned on but unplugged!!

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

When I first plugged in the hackspaces angle-grinder (the one that's had
the safety guard removed) it came on and scooted across the floor,
taking a nice chunk out of my otherwise immaculate MIG welder (bringing
into the space to work on the vac station project).

I don't know who decided to leave it with the switch latched on, but if
it's not already clear; that's a fucking dangerous and stupid thing to
do. It's the sort of thing that can maim or kill someone, especially if
done with larger tools. Especially on these rather battered tools it's
not immediately obvious what mode something's in by just looking at it.

[M]

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you check before turning it on?

--
>
++++++++++[>+>+++>++
+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.

[Ian Henderson]

If the safety guard has been removed it should be taken out of use and either fixed or destroyed

Sorry, but I feel strongly about this as I've seen people injured and on 1 occasion killed in workplace accidents due to not following basic H&S procedures

If the guard had been in place even in the circumstances you described no damage would have been caused

Do we need a H&S audit of all of the equipment in the space?

Ian

[tgreer]

No, we just need people to not be retards.

[Ian Henderson]

No. It must be more than that. Hackspace has a legal obligation to provide a safe working environment.

Allowing a tool to remain in use without a safety guard could give rise to:

1. H&S prosecution
2. A legal claim if an accident occurs

Ian

[David Sullivan]

On Sunday, 23 September 2012 09:24:50 UTC+1, Ian Henderson wrote:

This angle grinder aside (which is one piece of kit I haven't used) most of the equipment I've come accross I believe to be in safe working order. Jonty was looking at creating a series of checklists for things that something like this could come under. The difficulty is any pure equipment audit is going to miss the larger H&S issue in the space which is the unsafe use of equipment.

I was taught that with power tools you do a 30 second check to see that the mains cable isn't damaged, that's what should be tight is and that it looks in general safe working order. 

Safety is the responsility of *all* of the members, you should be looking at things with safety in mind and if there's an issue *you* have to resolve it or make sure someone else does. I've found and destroyed a widowmaker that was in a box of donated leads, fixed several mains plugs where the cable grip was improperly fitted and fixed another where one of the mains conductor screws was not done up properly. If you're using the angle grinder it is *your* responsibility to make sure it's in safe working order.

A low level (Ho Ho) safety bugbear of mine that an equipment audit would miss is cables as trip hazards in the workshop, almost every time I've come in someone has plugged in the crappy grey computer "Surgemaster" Belkin multiway and left the lead accross a walkway, this isn't on.

I've tried to arrange more mains hanging down over the benches to try and mitigate people's need to run mains from further away. There are also bright orange and white extension leads which are far more visible and less of a trip hazard for *temporary* use where necessary, if you see people doing stuff like this call them out on it, if I see people doing this I've said I'll garrott them, please make sure I don't go to jail.

Sully.

[David Sullivan]

The Hackspace has no employees, the Health and Safety at Work Act doesn’t generally apply to someone who is not an employer, self-employed or an employee.

Sully

[Adrian Godwin]

Hackspace isn't a workplace - it's a shared shed. Everyone is responsible for their own use of the tools. It is, however, expected that everyone should attempt to make that shed a pleasure to use for everyone that shares it. Sadly, not everyone does this and some have to take up the slack.

[Akki]

tl;dr The biggest problem with tools is that people are tools.

The hackspace workshop's biggest problem is that there is no grand poopah overseeing the workshop and there are all various levels of competency and lack thereof.
You use the workshop at your own risk. As said, look before you leap/plug things in.

~Akki

[Daveb]

The fact that the H&S laws do not apply to us directly is not important.

Rule 0 - "do not be on fire" : I take as encompassing the intent of the health and safety regs, applied by the thinking members of the space.

Rule 1 - part 2 :- "Don't defeat or hack safety features/equipment. This is for other people's safety as much as yours."

Seems that we have a violation of this in the missing safety guard.

[Billy]

If you look on the shelf where the hand power tools are stored, you
should find the guard.

I think, that angle-grinder is designed for both left-handed and right-
handed use, so the handles and the guard are movable, so you can swap
the facing.

That said, yes check the tools before you use them.

And PUT them away properly! The number of times i have had to spend
half-an-hour tidying leads, re-stacking materials, and just putting
things away properly, before i could get on with using the workshop,
is beginning to piss me off.

When you use the facilities in the hackspace, please factor in the
time needed to tidy up afterwards, when you are planning things.

And then actually do the tidying...

To repeat the same request that i always make, please tidy more mess
than you make, as it will help reduce the entropy found here...

[Benjamin Blundell]

I did use the angle grinder last night to take apart the screen for
its scrap metal. I definitely turned it off (I needed to before I
unplugged it) and then returned it to where I found it (I remember I
told you this) and also placed the cables back in the new white
shelves. Unless someone else used it after me, im somewhat mystified
as to how it it could have been latched on. I did notice there was no
guard - I had the grinder tilted as best as I could, used glasses and
gloves but was somewhat worried as to its safety.

I think, last night, was a tricky one because lots of things were
being moved in and out and all the rest of it, with the return of all
of our gear from storage. Im hoping, once things have settled a bit,
we can tidy up the kit a little.

B

[Benjamin Blundell]

Related to Sully's post, mine and the space search, I think its
becoming clear that we need to take a weekend or so out and redesign
the space infrastructure. Examples of this include stuff like the new
servers, getting them put away neatly, the network box and its setup,
the replacement of lovelace, remounting the first aid kits (I went
through them last night and removed the out of date stuff), rewiring
the workshop (I've seen sully doing this) and all the rest. We've done
it in parts here and there but it might be worth saying something like
- the workshop is out of action to all members for a weekend whilst we
audit kit, clean and tidy and rewire.

B

[Martin Klang]

A switch is easily flicked and even latched when moving and storing tools away.

I think that if I'd done something as silly as setting an angle grinder racing across the floor I wouldn't be advertising it on the list.
But we all appreciate your candour, Peter. It's an entertaining mental image.

best,

/m

[Ian Henderson]

I'm sure we've all had "near misses"

Let's make sure we all learn a lesson from this one...

[Mark Steward]

I disagree with not advertising it. Safety is an ongoing learning process, and blameless discussion of identified risks is an important part of dealing with them.

Given the amount of unsafe use by novices I've seen elsewhere, the angle grinder is probably one of the tools that deserves a laminated do/don't checklist next to it.

Mark

[Martin Klang]

fair enough and I do agree - blameless discussion is the way to go.

Now, to the blame: can we agree that the key mistake here is not as indicated in the subject line, but rather:
don't plug in tools with missing safety features, mmmkay?

/m

[Mark Steward]

Yup, and check it's off before plugging in (applies to most tools).

If safety features are missing or don't fit properly, either firmly attach a warning or tape around the tool, and tell the list.

Mark

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

It's hard to tell on the grinder. The switch is an regularly shaped
wedge of black plastic with no markings. It's supposed to be
sprung-return so it auto-offs unless it's been pushed right forward and
latched. The difference is about 5mm with no position markings.

Basically when un-powered OFF looks near-identical to ON.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I was told the guard was removed because you can't get blades that fit
it anymore otherwise. It's good to know the guard still exists though,
because I find it hard to believe you just can't get disks for it.

[SamLR]

Could we look at going through a lot of power tools, especially those that are used regularly, and replacing them? 

Whilst I'm a big fan of re-use some of those tools, especially for something like an angle grinder, you want to be sure that it's easy and safe to use. 

Old second hand tools are fine for yourself because you can learn their quirks. In a communal workshop, less so. NB the argument "ask fist/check wiki" is invalid here because a) many of these tools aren't on the wiki b) many people don't know how to use them so asking is daft c) many people know how to use an angle grinder but if, to use it safely, you have to recite 5 "hail mary's" before sacrificing a chicken that's not going to be obvious.

S

[samthetechie]

Please re-add the safety guard / find a new one and then we are all good. We can take this 'near miss' as a warning to others to be a little bit more careful when leaving tools in a safe state (drill bits put away etc etc) when they are finished and others should check the tool before powering on! ^_^

On Sunday, 23 September 2012 04:01:50 UTC+1, Sci wrote:

[Alex Pounds]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 01:28:10PM +0100, Mark Steward wrote:
> I disagree with not advertising it. Safety is an ongoing learning process,
> and blameless discussion of identified risks is an important part of
> dealing with them.

Indeed. If the OP hadn't reported it to the mailing list, we could have
had a more serious injury later followed up with an "Oh, that happened to
me the other day," post.

--
Alex Pounds
Web Developer & Photographer

http://alexpounds.com/ | http://ethicsgirls.com/

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

While a bunch of the tools have interlocks or only latch-on when powered
(that would be a nice feature on all tools, wouldn't it?), the nightmare
one that sprung to mind was "what if someone left red the arc-welder in
the ON state?" The leads would be live the moment it was plugged in.

IIRC we have had similar issues with the mini lathe and mill, which is
why they're stored with their emergency-stop buttons locked down, since
the control pots made the motors twitch and move otherwise while plugged in.
Perhaps noting which tools are able to be left activated but unpowered
would be useful in training and access-planning?

While I accept I should have actively checked first, it's still hardly
something I feel that bad about neglecting to do. I double-check my own
tools are in a storage-fit state before packing them away. My mistake
was assuming everyone would, so admitting it feels like a backhanded
compliment. :P
And to be fair, most of the time the tools *are* stored away safe enough
(statewise anyway), so a reminder stops us all getting complacent.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

New topic for move-preparation clearing/organising?

[Billy]

On Sep 23, 4:41 pm, "Peter \"Sci\" Turpin" <s...@sci-fi-fox.com>
wrote:

> IIRC we have had similar issues with the mini lathe and mill, which is
> why they're stored with their emergency-stop buttons locked down, since
> the control pots made the motors twitch and move otherwise while plugged in.

This is caused by a problem with the brushes. They need replacing.
It's a simple fix, remove the old ones and install the replacements.
They're the simplest of the components to change, which is why they're
sacrificial, and hence, easy to replace.

Might be a good idea to have a couple of spares in stock...

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I thought it was the cheap control-pots that caused this? I thought they
weren't reading full-off so making the motors twitch?

[Oskar Pearson]

Hi All

> I disagree with not advertising it. Safety is an ongoing learning process, and blameless discussion of identified risks is an important part of dealing with them.
>
> Given the amount of unsafe use by novices I've seen elsewhere, the angle grinder is probably one of the tools that deserves a laminated do/don't checklist next to it.

If anyone wants to mail me a text-only checklist for the angle grinder (or any other tools), I'll integrate it into the checklist git repository. Or you can capture it into the wiki and mail me a link and I'll handle things from there.

(It's been more than a decade since I've used an angle grinder, so I'd be making the list up if I tried.)

https://github.com/oskarpearson/lhs-checklists if you want to edit it yourself or log bugs on github, http://www.deckle.co.za/LHS-Laser-Cutter-Checklist.pdf if you want a LHS example (though http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/539922main_EVA_134_F_A.pdf is probably a better example).

I'll integrate a templating and build system into the git repository a the same time. We'll also need to find a more permanent home for the pdfs. I may only get to this late next week though - work is busy.

Cheers,

Oskar

[David Murphy]

On the note of health and safety I think the fire escape needs some more TLC.
I cleaned and oiled the lock a while back but it's still stiff and the wood around the lock is falling to bits.(I don't have the skill to hang a new door nor the funds to buy one)

also the storage of big sheets of material half blocking the fire escape is a problem.

[Signius]

First post on the mailing list :)

Nobody seems to have pointed out one of the golden rule of Angle Grinders & that is NEVER EVER place one facing blade side down ALWAYS put it down face side up so that if it gets plugged by mistake (could be more than one plug there & you plug the wrong tool in unknowingly) and the grinder powers up it cannot go zooming across a workbench or the floor as in this case the worst can happen is it makes you jump and spins up alerting you to instantly unplug it.

Grinders often get their guards removed as the guards often make it impossible to get into where needs cutting or grinding, although if the guard was removed for this reason the person who removed it should have replaced it especially in a shared environment like the hackspace. It is easy to source replacement parts for power tools even tools that are over 20yrs old & just because something is modern doesnt mean its better or safer. 

Most carpenters will tell you the modern power tools with the press a button before you can press a trigger like circular saws are more awkward & more likely to result in an accident than the old style press the trigger to go let go to release type especially when you got small hands like i have some modern tools are a right bastard to press both buttons with one hand. 

I got 25yrs plus of carpentry & joinery experience so seen my fair share of accidents at work and had a few myself & it only takes a split second for a lot of blood to be spilling or a finger or two to go missing (yes i worked with a few chippies with missing digits), when using other peoples tools always double check them over for sticking guards etc and be extra careful & i would say as they tools in the space are shared everyone should always double check the tool over before firing it up and follow basic common sense like placing a grinder face up before plugging it in.  

I am not a Health & Safety nut by any measure & they often make things more of a risk but in my years of experience most accidents are caused by rushing or people being dumb normally the latter.

[Jasper Wallace]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012, Benjamin Blundell wrote:

> Related to Sully's post, mine and the space search, I think its
> becoming clear that we need to take a weekend or so out and redesign
> the space infrastructure. Examples of this include stuff like the new
> servers, getting them put away neatly, the network box and its setup,
> the replacement of lovelace, remounting the first aid kits (I went
> through them last night and removed the out of date stuff), rewiring
> the workshop (I've seen sully doing this) and all the rest. We've done
> it in parts here and there but it might be worth saying something like
> - the workshop is out of action to all members for a weekend whilst we
> audit kit, clean and tidy and rewire.

+1m

We do have the lhs-infrastructure list for wireing etc things. maybe we
should have another for aqusitions & dispersal.

--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 14:15:10 +0100, SamLR <sam.lind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Could we look at going through a lot of power tools, especially those
> that
> are used regularly, and replacing them?
>
> Whilst I'm a big fan of re-use some of those tools, especially for
> something like an angle grinder, you want to be sure that it's easy and
> safe to use.
>
> Old second hand tools are fine for yourself because you can learn their
> quirks. In a communal workshop, less so. NB the argument "ask fist/check
> wiki" is invalid here because a) many of these tools aren't on the wiki
> b)
> many people don't know how to use them so asking is daft c) many people
> know how to use an angle grinder but if, to use it safely, you have to
> recite 5 "hail mary's" before sacrificing a chicken that's not going to
> be
> obvious.
>
> S

--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

[Mike]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 04:41:58PM +0100, Peter Sci Turpin wrote:
>
> While I accept I should have actively checked first, it's still
> hardly something I feel that bad about neglecting to do. I
> double-check my own tools are in a storage-fit state before packing
> them away. My mistake was assuming everyone would, so admitting it
> feels like a backhanded compliment. :P
> And to be fair, most of the time the tools *are* stored away safe
> enough (statewise anyway), so a reminder stops us all getting
> complacent.
>

I have to say, I find your approach a little curious. Over the last
year I've purchased a number of power tools from a number of
manufactuers. One thing that unites them all is that every single one
comes with a manual that says "Safety: Ensure that the tool is turned
off before plugging it in". While, I conceed that none of these manuals
go as far as to define "before", I find it doubtful that that intend for
the instruction to be interpretted as "ensure that the tool is turned
off and then three weeks later, when you come to use the tool again,
hope that it's still in the off position when you come to plug it in,
like a motorised Schrodinger's Cat". Surely the only sensible time to
check the state of the swtich is right before you plug it in? You might
well have put it in the off state and locked it in the shed but you have
no idea what may have happened in the interim. Sister's kids been
dicking around, the mice walked across it while scrambling to get at
your seed collection. Whatever it turns out to be, it will be something
that never ever crossed your mind as being possible. Certainly the last
thought I would want to go through my mind as I'm picking pieces of
angle-grinder blade out of my face would be "oh fuck, I'd never thought
of that!"

On a final note, your willingness to trust your life and limb to total
strangers, whom you may never have even met before is an uplifting story
that has resotred my faith in humanity.

Thank you.

Mike.

[Sam Kelly]

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There's a usability issue with the overhead sockets - whilst they're
generally fantastic, and having them there is great, it does make it
so you need two hands to plug something in. I was always taught to
hold the tool in safe position while plugging it in, specifically to
avoid unwanted surprises like this, but that requires sturdily fixed
sockets.

So whilst this isn't an OMGFixThisItWillKillSomeone issue, or even
close to it, we might want to stick it on the list for the next
workshop redesign.

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger
dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

[Lindsay Morrison]

a quick note about the angle grinder- it is VERY dangerous to use gloves while operating it, as they can be sucked into the grinding disk, and your fingers along with them!

L

[Mark Steward]

Or indeed any grinder.