Re: [lojban] a thing or two about the Crash Course
Gleki Arxokuna
Hello there,
I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked.To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC
is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a template away from victory!
(A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (”x1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before!
The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
What would YOU do?
I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talking about one half only.
— mu'o
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Gleki Arxokuna
21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hello there,
>> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked.
>>
>> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>>
>> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>
>
> CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?
Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"
, you're still linking to the modified parser. If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already
Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this happens again.
And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a wiki.
You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what I call a crime!
>> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>>
>> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (”x1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>>
>> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>>
>> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>
>
> Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the problem. But your course is different — there are many pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before!
>>
>> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>>
>> What would YOU do?
>
>
> If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job needs to be done.
>
> Make a new course so that people start using it.
I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
Gleki Arxokuna
2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hello there,
>> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked.
>>
>> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>>
>> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>
>
> CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"
You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral".The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach LojbanThe job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't the course if you can't do that., you're still linking to the modified parser.
Gleki Arxokuna
21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?
>>
>> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"
>
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
>
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
> Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the official parser couldn't be nicely put online
It isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it.
>> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this:
>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already
>> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.
No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't an excuse.
>
>>
>> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology.
> Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban".
Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le jbobau}?
Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many.
>>
>> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
>
>>
>>
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and first check yourself.
It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.
>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place.
I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see — two people administrate the wiki
, but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation feels like.
>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (”x1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>> >>
>> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the problem. But your course is different — there are many pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.
What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement.
> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested in fixing them.
OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking about.
>> >
>> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?
You're awesome — you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.
Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and what? You don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done something good.
And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a god.
Gleki Arxokuna
On 21 May 2016 at 11:21, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:2016-05-21 12:05 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
21 maj 2016 10:27 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
>
>
> 2016-05-21 11:07 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 21 maj 2016 07:36 "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2016-05-20 22:22 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak...@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> Hello there,
>> >> I'm genuinely offended by that the Crash Course's resources are not properly marked.
>> >>
>> >> To elaborate: the course is not a single page and, as you can guess, produces a lot of topics not quite parallel, or even relevant to it. Also, the contents describe an unofficial variation on the theme of official (BPFK) Lojban, containing many experimental cmavo, selma'o and constructions. Now, there are many dialects of Lojban extant, and they all appear on the wiki. This means that such dialects should be marked off by a template or warning at the top of a page. Yet many, if not most of the CC's pages don't warn the reader this way. It is important to do so, as it doesn't confuse that reader into thinking some construct is official while it isn't. There are many solutions to this problem.
>> >>
>> >> The first one is defining what a "modern dialect of Lojban" as taught by CC
>> >
>> >
>> > CC isn't intended to teach any modern dialects of Lojban. Who told you so?
>>
>> Oh, you failed riposta apprentice. Even though you've removed the line, "this course teaches modern dialects of Lojban"
>
>
> You are completely missing the point. One cannot put all dialects and languages into one tutotiral".
> The job of La Bangu method is to collect feedback.
> The job the crash course for Lojban is to teach Lojban
> The job the crash course for Loglan will be to teach Loglan.
>
> Don't tell me you didn't know that. And if you didn't then just don't the course if you can't do that.
>
>
>>
>> , you're still linking to the modified parser.
> Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I used the modified parser because the official parser couldn't be nicely put onlineIt isn't an excuse. Use the official one XOR warn your users about it.
Hm, official one is not for everyone. It requires installation.
Then find a way around. You're good at this. You've written a whole lot of code, so you should be able to do that. And again, it's not an excuse. Why do I have to repeat this, anyway?
>> If you removed that and you think you're "done", you're wrong. I've had 5 seconds of looking at the table of contents, and have at this:
>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#za.27o_-_still.2C_xa.27o_-_already
>> Now, {xa'o} is experimental, so don't tell me you ain't teachin' theez effin' modern dialects of Lojban.
>
>
> Read CLL first and what it says about experimental words.No matter what, an experimental word is an experimental word. It isn't an excuse.
Read CLL.
Done. What now? What would you like to prove? That I'm wrong? It's you who's trying to win, and I'll kindly accept constructive criticism about my knowledge, or age, or whatever. Go ahead — I won't be sad about it. At least you'll have a person you can cry at.
>
>>
>> I shall make a list of inconsistencies in CC, so that nothing like this happens again.
>
>
> I'll gladly accept your feedback according to la bangu ideology.
> Many people have done this in past and I thank all of them once again to show interest and being constructive.
>
>> And also, all Lojbans are equal, so your definition of {banzu frica be le jbobau} is far too irrational.
>
>
> Equal in terms of La Bangu but not "The Crash Course for Lojban".Huh? What would happen if YOUR Lojban was called {banzu frica be le jbobau}?
Why would? In my personal messages I use various languages all the time. I don't even speak many things mentioned in the Crash Course because I just don't like them or don't need them.
"I don't like them"? What you're saying is nonsense. Either you're a descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescriptivist, drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban and not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just said disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line" is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this frivolously, but then please don't tell us such things.
Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there are many.
There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular language at all.
Define "not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't understand.
>>
>> Also, why do you delete pages' histories? It's illegal to do so on a wiki.
>
>
> I never did. Who told you so?
>
>>
>>
>>
>> You've abused your admin rights in order to hide the truth. Now that's what I call a crime!
>
>
> Please, stop spreading lies. Please, stop believing everybody and first check yourself.It's no secret that you're doing this to keep a good image about you for some. Even if those "lies" weren't true, how can you have such a bad reputation among many others? Just get off the admin's seat and everyone will be {gleki} again.
So you haven't answered an important question.Slander stops being slander only if supported by facts.
Oh well, then why is everyone attacking you?
There are so many proofs around, and for every and each one you say, "this is nonsense, I couldn't have done that."
And if explained further, you switch the topic.
Honestly, do you know what "feedback" means? I know, harsh criticism hurts, but that doesn't mean that you have to ignore it. But you do ignore it.
>
> If you have technical questions first read about mediawiki engine, ask question in #mediawiki IRC chat that is more knowledgeable than this place.I know how a MediaWiki works and I have experienced it a lot. I know that history is there to stay forever, and it seems to be cut off. Hmmmm, who could it be? You see — two people administrate the wiki
Wrong, many more people administrate it.
Sure, but you're high up at the top. Too high.
, but everyone would think you did that. Now you know what low reputation feels like.
Maybe because it superficially seems to be cut off and in reality it's not?
There's a proverb in Poland. It roughly translates as, "if seven people tell you you're sick, go to the doctor". Have a thought about it.
>>
>> >> is, by the community itself. For example: is the selpa'i 's JE model counted? Is {xoi} in it? One could ask such questions night-long, and wouldn't get a brick solid answer. So why not capture it? Then we're only a template away from victory!
>> >>
>> >> (A rationale for such a thing: at any point, gleki can add {moi'i'au'e} of ME (”x1 is a fish swimming in patterns [sumti]"), declare it as the modern dialect, and suddenly a new army of nintadni would flush the jbogu'e talking about the peculiar swimming patterns of salmon. Now that's what I call evil! In order to avoid such silliness, a list of accepted experimental stuff would form, and no such personal mix-and-match morphing of the language of unaware learners would occur.)
>> >>
>> >> The second one is to put guns on BPFK's members' cheeks and make them mainstream the new usage proposals... ah, forget it.
>> >>
>> >> The real second one is to remove the whole CC from the wiki. This way, no one will be concerned about viewing random pages on the wiki and thinking they are in official Lojban while they aren't. Simple, right?
>> >
>> >
>> > Also one can remove other resources that are not official Lojban. They also spread false info about Lojban.
>>
>> Nope, they can say it's unofficial Lojban, which is one way out of the problem. But your course is different — there are many pages. Removing it right away would solve the problem quickly.
>
>
> One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies your statement.
Wave lessons.
Wave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late.
> Wave lessons also contain false data but it seems nobody is interested in fixing them.
OK, I'll do it then. But first show me that false data you're talking about.
bridi = selbri + one or more sumtiUsual bridi: (x1 sumti) (selbri) (x2 sumti) (x3 sumti) (x4 sumti) (x5 sumti) (and so on)
That's a thing to correct indeed. But then again, what are you trying to prove?
It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
Which one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that it's experimental?
The list goes on but if i had time i would fix it all myself.Also please, if you have time try fixing formatting where needed.
I shall.
>> >
>> >> The third one is to do the following: for every nonstandard usage or word, add a warning about it, link to a relevant page and show the official version. Suddenly we don't get any of the problems we've experienced before!
>> >>
>> >> The fourth one is to stop that stupid marking and consider every dialect to be Lojban. This would include lo geirbau and lo cu'u banzu frica be le jbobau ku ku xo'o.
>> >>
>> >> What would YOU do?
>> >
>> >
>> > If I were you I would write a new course instead of complaining. Job needs to be done.
>> >
>> > Make a new course so that people start using it.
>>
>> I'm working on one, so you can stop blaming me like that. And be more critical about what you do, abuser.
>
> People, see what people think of people who do things?You're awesome — you're developing an IRC bot, a fast dictionary and a course. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO BAD THINGS.
Same for you. Whatever you do you that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread false data about me or anything or anyone else.
If you're evil in many people's eyes, it's not weird to have such things happen to you.
Let's say you're running a big company that has saved lives of hundreds and you, the boss, start killing random people. You go to court and what? You don't even think they'll let you go only because you've done something good.
And I observe a Lojbanist withering away, because you think you're a god.
.i ue mi cevni ki'e do .i ku'i mi senpi
do na cevni .i do zukte tai lo cevni .i do jinvi lo du'u do vlipa lo ka zukte ji'i ro da na'e ri'i do .i na jetnu ku'i.i rinka fa ke sa'u lo nu do se ke manci je xlura tu'a lo tcevli se kakne .i rarna du'o so'i lo pijyskepre fa lo nu mu'i no lo racli cu djica lo ka turni stali .i do lifri za'a sai
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I think that not doing any of these would be an offense from gleki's side, so some of these should be done. Feel free to discuss it here, or fork the thread, if you feel like you're splitting hair in two and talking about one half only.
>> >>
>> >> — mu'o
Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG
> On 22 May 2016 at 07:16, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com
> <mailto:gleki.is...@gmail.com>> wrote:
...
> you're a descriptivist and choose to describe what's used, no
> matter if you want it or not; or you're a prescriptivist,
> drawing a straight, definite line between "correct" Lojban and
> not Lojban. If you're the first one, then what you've just said
> disproves it, because you can't cherrypick features. If you're
> the second, then I have to say, your "straight, definite line"
> is tremendously fuzzy. I don't mind if you're writing this
> frivolously, but then please don't tell us such things.
>
>
> Keep it consistent. Either there is 1 Lojban, or there
> are many.
>
>
> There is 1 Lojban but la bangu is not about any particular
> language at all.
>
>
> Define "not any particular language at all". Maybe I don't
> understand.
>
>
> La Bangu is for Loglan, Lojban, semi-Lojban whatever.
>
>
> Lojban? Zantufa Lojban? A mix of these, maybe?
...
> > One page can cause much confusion if it teaches unofficial or wrong Lojban or not Lojban.
>
> What is not Lojban? Give me a wiki page that exemplifies
> your statement.
>
>
> Wave lessons.
>
>
> Wave Lessons try do describe official Lojban with some
> discrepancies. Everything gets slowly reviewed in this peculiar
> place, and Wave Lessons are just a bit late.
> It uses experimental cmavo that you consider bad.
>
>
> Which one? You mean, {xa'o}? Have they told the listeners that
> it's experimental?
>
>
> Read more. Maybe you read only the crash course on the wiki which is
> fine by itself but criticizing one page (or one set of pages if you
> include transclusion) must be done in comparison with other pages.
>
> There are other experimental cmavo. Just read carefully.
>
>
lojbab weighs in (informally), for what it's worth.
OK. Maybe I am figuring out what this is about. Or maybe not. If this
"Crash Course" is on the wiki, then politeness to all the rest of us
readers would necessitate someone actually putting a link to it (which
should be included in ALL messages about the topic, since not everyone
reads every message).
So I've never seen this "crash course". And I don't have the time or
the interest to try to find it. But there seems to be enough
information to offer some guidelines.
1. Both "The Wave Lessons" and the "Crash Course" seem to be distinct
and unitary items, just as is "CLL". It seems to me that any such
unitary items should be well-defined, and isolated. One way is to
remove them completely from the normal Lojban web pages to something
separate, and then include a single point of entry link that is used to
get from the Lojban web pages to a home page for the unitary project.
2. If the unitary project is implemented on the same wiki as the Lojban
web pages (as seems to be the case here), there should be a single index
page that lists and links to all of the component pages making up the
project, and maybe a separate index to any pages that comment on, or
make reference to, the component pages. The project home page would
link to this.
3. If the project makes use of any experimental or non-standard
language features, there should be maintained a list of those features
in one place, either on the project home page, or on the index page, or
on some other single page where people can look and see and thus easily
evaluate whether they wish to make use of the material. It is not
necessary to mark each non standard use, so long as there is only the
single entry point into the materials, and the list of non-standard
features is easily found from that single entry point.
The standard language is defined by the baseline materials and any
changes formally approved by byfy (which hopefully will maintain a
single page linking to all approved changes that are not included in the
baseline documentation).
lojbab
Gleki Arxokuna
lojbab
Bruno Panasiewicz
karis
Have these two courses (Crash Course and Wave Lessons) been clearly identified as non-official or corrected to it yet? From reading the entirety of the conversation I believe this was the solution to neither course being so marked or solely teaching official lojban. I'm posting this here so the answers are accessible to all.
[I am currently unable to provide earlier posts along with mine. That is why I provided short explanatory comments.]
Karis