Why is there no noodle gismu?

[selpa'i]

The title basically says it all. I would like to have a gismu for
"noodle", as noodles are everywhere! Please don't suggest {grusko};
noodles come in all shapes and needn't be made from {gurni}.

What do you call a fake noodle?

...

An Impasta. ;)

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 10:59 AM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

The title basically says it all. I would like to have a gismu for "noodle", as noodles are everywhere! Please don't suggest {grusko}; noodles come in all shapes and needn't be made from {gurni}.

You're going to have to give me an example of a noodle shape that isn't cylindrical and a source that isn't a grain, because I've never encountered any noodle that isn't both. I've had spinach noodles, but they were actually regular noodles with spinach mixed in.

 

What do you call a fake noodle?

...

An Impasta. ;)

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Craig Daniel]

Buckwheat is not a grain, yet soba is still a type of noodle.

Fettuccine are not cylindrical, but they're definitely a noodle as well.

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 10:59 AM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> The title basically says it all. I would like to have a gismu for
>> "noodle", as noodles are everywhere! Please don't suggest {grusko}; noodles
>> come in all shapes and needn't be made from {gurni}.
>
>
> You're going to have to give me an example of a noodle shape that isn't
> cylindrical and a source that isn't a grain, because I've never encountered
> any noodle that isn't both. I've had spinach noodles, but they were actually
> regular noodles with spinach mixed in.
>
>>
>>
>> What do you call a fake noodle?
>>
>> ...
>>
>> An Impasta. ;)
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Buckwheat is not a grain, yet soba is still a type of noodle.

I have no idea what buckwheat is, other than one oft the characters on Little Rascals.

 

Fettuccine are not cylindrical, but they're definitely a noodle as well.

I'd say the shape of Fettuccine stills qualifies as skori even though they aren't cylindrical. Are there any noodles that aren't pasta?

Because if not, I'd suggest using pasta as a gismu (because we don't have a gismu for pasta either, and the gismu {pasta} is available), meaning what anyone would guess it did, and then noodles could be line-pasta. (skopasta).

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:28:43AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Craig Daniel
> <craigb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Buckwheat is not a grain, yet soba is still a type of noodle.
> >
>
> I have no idea what buckwheat is, other than one oft the
> characters on Little Rascals.
>
>
> > Fettuccine are not cylindrical, but they're definitely a noodle
> > as well.
> >
>
> I'd say the shape of Fettuccine stills qualifies as skori even
> though they aren't cylindrical. Are there any noodles that aren't
> pasta?
>
> Because if not, I'd suggest using pasta as a gismu (because we
> don't have a gismu for pasta either, and the gismu {pasta} is
> available), meaning what anyone would guess it did, and then
> noodles could be line-pasta. (skopasta).

If we're going to add a gismu, pasta is a much better choice; it's
*startingly* hard to make a lujvo for (I've tried).

-Robin

[Craig Daniel]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Buckwheat is not a grain, yet soba is still a type of noodle.

It's a type of xruba, which can be ground into a flour and used to
make pasta (among other applications).

>> Fettuccine are not cylindrical, but they're definitely a noodle as well.
>
> I'd say the shape of Fettuccine stills qualifies as skori even though they
> aren't cylindrical. Are there any noodles that aren't pasta?
>
> Because if not, I'd suggest using pasta as a gismu (because we don't have a
> gismu for pasta either, and the gismu {pasta} is available), meaning what
> anyone would guess it did, and then noodles could be line-pasta. (skopasta).

I'd be inclined to try a succinct type-IV fu'ivla, but yeah, I think
"pasta" should be the main gloss we're going for. Alternatively,
jbovlaste lists "pexfebdja."

[Robin Lee Powell]

That's mine. It sucks.

-Robin

[Craig Daniel]

It does. It's better than nothing, but I think there must be a way to do better.

[Jonathan Jones]

I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better word than that.

I'm not sure if you're aware of my hatred of fu'ivla in general?

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:47:15AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>
> I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better
> word than that.

I would want to know where that word originated, how long it's been
aronud, what other words have been around longer, etc., before
simply importing a word from English.

> I'm not sure if you're aware of my hatred of fu'ivla in general?

It's a phase. You'll grow out of it.

-Robin

[la gleki]

It's time to stop saying "No new gismu or cimjvo! Use fu'ivla or jvajvo instead" and turn to actually starting to group all brivla according to semantics classes

(learning 1342 gismu from No. 1 to No. 1342 is definitely not the right way to learn lojban or any other language).

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:47:15 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Robin Lee Powell
<rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 01:32:44PM -0400, Craig Daniel wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'd say the shape of Fettuccine stills qualifies as skori even though they
>> > aren't cylindrical. Are there any noodles that aren't pasta?
>> >
>> > Because if not, I'd suggest using pasta as a gismu (because we don't have a
>> > gismu for pasta either, and the gismu {pasta} is available), meaning what
>> > anyone would guess it did, and then noodles could be line-pasta. (skopasta).
>>
>> I'd be inclined to try a succinct type-IV fu'ivla, but yeah, I think
>> "pasta" should be the main gloss we're going for. Alternatively,
>> jbovlaste lists "pexfebdja."
>
> That's mine.  It sucks.

It does. It's better than nothing, but I think there must be a way to do better.

I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better word than that.

I'm not sure if you're aware of my hatred of fu'ivla in general?

uanai i si'anai mi je'u nelci lo brivla poi zo'oi VCCV tarmi ke'a

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:47:15AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>
> I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better
> word than that.

I would want to know where that word originated, how long it's been
aronud, what other words have been around longer, etc., before
simply importing a word from English.

It's not English. We stole it from the Italians. Who got it from the Romans. Who stole it from the Greeks.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pasta

 

> I'm not sure if you're aware of my hatred of fu'ivla in general?

It's a phase.  You'll grow out of it.

So far it's a 10+ year phase, then, since I've hated fu'ivla as long as I've been a jbopre.

 

-Robin

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[Robin Lee Powell]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37:05PM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:47:15AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better
> > > word than that.
> >
> > I would want to know where that word originated, how long it's
> > been aronud, what other words have been around longer, etc.,
> > before simply importing a word from English.
> >
>
> It's not English. We stole it from the Italians. Who got it from
> the Romans. Who stole it from the Greeks.
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pasta

That was the question I was asking. My only question, then, is is
there an older Chinese or Indian word for it?

Or, someone can just run the gismu alg and see what we get.

-Robin

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:47:15 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Robin Lee Powell

<rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 01:32:44PM -0400, Craig Daniel wrote:

>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'd say the shape of Fettuccine stills qualifies as skori even though they
>> > aren't cylindrical. Are there any noodles that aren't pasta?
>> >
>> > Because if not, I'd suggest using pasta as a gismu (because we don't have a
>> > gismu for pasta either, and the gismu {pasta} is available), meaning what
>> > anyone would guess it did, and then noodles could be line-pasta. (skopasta).
>>
>> I'd be inclined to try a succinct type-IV fu'ivla, but yeah, I think
>> "pasta" should be the main gloss we're going for. Alternatively,
>> jbovlaste lists "pexfebdja."
>
> That's mine.  It sucks.

It does. It's better than nothing, but I think there must be a way to do better.

I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better word than that.

I'm not sure if you're aware of my hatred of fu'ivla in general?

uanai i si'anai mi je'u nelci lo brivla poi zo'oi VCCV tarmi ke'a

It has nothing to do with the shape of fu'ivla, although the lower classes are ugly as sin (like cidjrspageti). Using fu'ivla feels like giving up, to me, especially since Lojban is supposed to be designed to make any conceivable concept from combining root words (lujvo).

 

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 13:18:28 Craig Daniel wrote:
> Buckwheat is not a grain, yet soba is still a type of noodle.

It's a norgru, so I'd still call soba "grusko". Or it could be "xubysko",
unless there's some other kind of string made from xruba.

> Fettuccine are not cylindrical, but they're definitely a noodle as well.

I'd call them "grusri" or "nabysri".

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:50:56 Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 11:47:15AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> > I'm still behind {pasta}. I'd be hard pressed to find a better
> > word than that.
>

> I would want to know where that word originated, how long it's been
> aronud, what other words have been around longer, etc., before
> simply importing a word from English.

The word is from Latin from Ancient Greek and exists in all of the source
languages except Chinese (in which the word is "mein" or "mian" depending on
how you transliterate the dialects). (Quick Wiktionary check.) I've seen it
used in Portuguese for a small briefcase, and the primary meaning in Russian
is "paste" (which is likewise from Latin "pasta"), but it is also used for
"pasta" in Russian.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[selpa'i]

Whatever comes out of this, it cannot be {pasta} because there already
is {pastu}.

[la gleki]

In Mandarin it's just "Italian noodles".

In Russian it's usually  "makarony".

I won't run the algorithm because it will for sure mutilate this word.

Sorry no other ideas (except removing the word {pastu} that has 29 occurrencies in the corpus).

[iesk]

{pa'asta}
{cildja}
{nudle}
{la'orjavjugnondavju'odja}

;)

[iesk]

Le mercredi 1 mai 2013 10:56:01 UTC+2, iesk a écrit :

{pa'asta}

.oi .u'i

[la gleki]

1. mien 0.347 pasta 0.196 pasta 0.160 pastas 0.123 makaron 0.089 baasta 0.085

Top score is 0.4911.

 smita stena mista

2. mien 0.347 pasta 0.196 pasta 0.160 pastas 0.123 pasta 0.089 baasta 0.085

Top score is 0.5445.

 smita stena mista

3. Running gleki's 12-language algorithm

mien 0.246117399315609 pasta 0.213872071597789 pasta 0.094630165833114 baasta 0.090023690444854 pasta 0.084890760726507 pasta 0.05672545406686 pasta 0.051855751513556 massa 0.048828639115557 pasuta 0.03224532771782 nudeln 0.027375625164517 pat 0.024743353514083

Top score is 0.522128630341318.

 patsa

As we can see 12 language combine their efforts to defeat Chinese "mien". But {patsa} looks so weird.

In Loglan it was {patmi} - (1n) [B-] B is some dough/pasta or food made from same, i.e. noodles, spaghetti, pastry, pie crust, etc.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikisaurus:pasta <-- this suggests "noodles" as a synonym which is decsribed here http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noodle

So may be just  {nudle} ?

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:56 AM, iesk <pa....@gmx.de> wrote:

{pa'asta} - conflicts with {pacna stali}
{cildja} - That's not really any better than {grusko}.
{nudle} - I don't like the idea of having a word pronounced "noodle" meaning "pasta", and if we have a jbovla for "pasta", we can make "noodle" with lujvo easily.
{la'orjavjugnondavju'odja} - Just no.

;)

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[iesk]

Le mercredi 1 mai 2013 11:51:44 UTC+2, aionys a écrit :

{nudle} - I don't like the idea of having a word pronounced "noodle" meaning "pasta", and if we have a jbovla for "pasta", we can make "noodle" with lujvo easily.

mi zo'u Pasta ⊂ Nudeln

[Jonathan Jones]

At best "Noodle" ⊂ "Pasta".

Pastas that are not noodles:
Acini di pepe, Agnolotti, Alfabeto, Anelli, Anellini, Campanelle, Cannelloni, Capunti, Casarecce, Casoncelli or casonsèi, Casunziei, Cavatelli, Cencioni, Conchiglie, Conchigliette, Conchiglioni, Corallini, Corzetti, Couscous, Creste di galli, Croxetti, Ditali, Ditalini, Egg barley, Fagottini, Farfalle, Farfalline, Farfalloni, Fideos, Filini, Fiorentine, Fiori, Foglie d'ulivo, Fregula, Funghini, Gigli, Gnocchi, Gramigna, Grattini, Grattoni, Israeli couscous (Ptitim), Lanterne, Lumache, Lumaconi, Maltagliati, Mandala, Marille, Maultasche, Mezzelune, Midolline, Occhi di lupo, Occhi di pernice, Orecchiette, Orzo (also, risoni), Passatelli, Pastina, Pearl Pasta, Pelmeni, Pierogi, Pipe, Puntine, Quadrefiore, Quadrettini, Radiatori, Ravioli, Ricciolini, Ricciutelle, Risi, Rotelle, Rotini, Sacchettini, Sacchettoni, Seme di melone, Sorprese, Sorprese Lisce, Spätzle, Stelle, Stelline, Stortini, Strozzapreti, Torchio, Tortellini, Tortelloni, Trofie

[Robin Lee Powell]

Oh, I forgot about pastu (or, rather, I forgot that it conflicts).
Actually, I use it almost daily; it's the word we use for
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Sleep-3-Pack-Months-LtYellow/dp/B004Q751CK/
and the like.

And I won't accept that conflict. Sorry.

-Robin

[iesk]

(cf. http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Nudel )

.i ku'i na'e vajni mutce  .i ta'o lo da'i gismu zo'u zo patsa bi'unai melbi banzu pe'i  .i lo da'i fu'ivla zo'u zo .iptsa se panra zo .apsta vau .u'i

[la gleki]

mi na'e nelci  zo patsa

[Pierre Abbat]

"miasta", where the "mia" is from Chinese.

Pierre
--
La sal en el mar es más que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:26:13 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Wednesday, May 01, 2013 01:56:01 iesk wrote:
> {pa'asta}
> {cildja}
> {nudle}
> {la'orjavjugnondavju'odja}

"miasta", where the "mia" is from Chinese.

pesxu already do everything that we need to  talk about "pasta". Indeed, what are the defining features of Italian pasta?

We shouldn't talk about the etymology of the word "pasta" itself cuz it's definitely {pesxu} in the most general sense.

I'd just say {nanba pesxu}, {febvi pesxu} etc.

If it's really needed then {nudle}.

{miasta} sounds like {mian+pasta} i.e. {nanba pesxu} which can be not only Italian pasta.

[la .lindar.]

I went for {srinanba} at one point, but it's not very good.

(btw: "Pasta" in Italian refers to any kind of bread/grain, from what a Milano friend tells me. It's a catch-all for the bottom of the food pyramid.)

[la gleki]

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:42:25 AM UTC+4, la .lindar. wrote:

I went for {srinanba} at one point, but it's not very good.

(btw: "Pasta" in Italian refers to any kind of bread/grain, from what a Milano friend tells me. It's a catch-all for the bottom of the food pyramid.)

That's what I thought. There is just no such thing as "pasta" . Etymologically it's just {pesxu}. These days it's just {nanba}.

What is now known all over the world through Sbarro and similar cafes is probably noodles. Of just {nanba} rebranded as "pasta".

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

selpa'i wrote:
> The title basically says it all. I would like to have a gismu for
> "noodle", as noodles are everywhere! Please don't suggest {grusko};
> noodles come in all shapes and needn't be made from {gurni}.
>
> What do you call a fake noodle?

I've stayed out of this thread hoping that the obvious question would be
raised:

Can you or someone give a definition of a "noodle", making it clear what
is and is not to be considered?

Here is what mw.com has
> Definition of NOODLE
> : a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form

which definition so obviously reflects a Lojban tanru, that it is
impossible to see it as a language "primitive" (the word JCB used for
"gismu", which I abandoned because of its polysemy). 13 words with 4
gismu among them.

djapexsri, though probably pexsri would be sufficient, and potentially
broadly productive even outside of the food realm; Lojban words do not
need to be 100% synonymous with English ones, and the few examples I can
imagine for a non-food being described as pexsri would probably be just
as clear as a tanru based on "noodle", and there likewise should be
little confusion with paste-like ribbons that are not "pasta" in English
(cake decorations, maybe?). One could mention the egg as well, but it
seems even less necessary.

I note in passing that ALL of the variant meanings for "noodle" that are
listed in mw.com have NOTHING to do with this base meaning, or even any
of those 4 gismu. In English, "noodle" is not a productive root.

And for those who bother to look up the word "pasta", you will find that
it means precisely "pesxu", though "djapesxu" would more probably
reflect its normal usage, as described in the encyclopediac definition.

(I'll note in passing that we actually did consider the question of
"pasta" when creating the gismu list, with pesxu being determined as the
solution. Indeed, pasta should probably have been added to the set of
synonyms in the definition.)

lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[la gleki]

ra'u mi kanpe lo nu lo pesxu ka'e cidja po'onai vau je'u peiru'e

well, i guess pesxu can be not only a food?

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 01:07:29PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
>
> I've stayed out of this thread hoping that the obvious question
> would be raised:
>
> Can you or someone give a definition of a "noodle", making it
> clear what is and is not to be considered?
>
> Here is what mw.com has
> >Definition of NOODLE
> >
> >: a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form

*Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not* a
paste! They may have been once upon a time, but I don't describe
cake as "a goo of milk, grain and eggs"! It's just not relevant at
all.

-Robin

--
http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

la gleki wrote:
> And for those who bother to look up the word "pasta", you will find
> that
> it means precisely "pesxu", though "djapesxu" would more probably
> reflect its normal usage, as described in the encyclopediac definition.
>
> (I'll note in passing that we actually did consider the question of
> "pasta" when creating the gismu list, with pesxu being determined as
> the
> solution. Indeed, pasta should probably have been added to the set of
> synonyms in the definition.)
>
>
> ra'u mi kanpe lo nu lo pesxu ka'e cidja po'onai vau je'u peiru'e

kanpe ki'a

> well, i guess pesxu can be not only a food?

Depends on what you put in x2. Certainly x2 need not be edible.

And there are food things that meet the definition of pesxu that we
don't consider pasta in English: tofu and jello being two that come to
mind (though they perhaps better fit with jduli; we had some kind of
noodle made of tofu as an appetizer at a Chinese restaurant when we gave
the Lojban talk in Williamsburg on the 19th - it was better described a
so'erpexsri than so'ejdu, and it looked like pasta to me). Lojban
classifications need not be exactly those of English or other languages.
pexsri would likely have a composition place, and in the case of
caulking (a non-edible paste-ribbon Nora just mentioned), you would
probably want a modifier or an explicit place that makes it clear it
isn't edible. Robin doesn't want his infants eating caulking. But then
you also don't want kids to eat those decorations made by young kids
using uncooked pasta and glue, either.

But if edibility is important to your concept of pasta, you would
probably want djapesxu (and djapexsri for a pasta noodle).

BTW, another borderline case I should have mentioned. It was asserted
by someone that "buckwheat" (xruba) is not a grain, and thus would not
normally be in this category. Americans would probably think of rhubarb
as a fruit, since we only know of it in pies. But in fact mw.com does
say that the seed of the buckwheat plant is used as a cereal grain
(presumably buckwheat pancakes are made of xruba pesxu). That buckwheat
is a staple grain in Russia and other parts of Eurasia is why we added a
gismu for the rhubarb/buckwheat plant.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buckwheat?show=0&t=1367532771

[Craig Daniel]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder
- LLG <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:

> la gleki wrote:
>
> BTW, another borderline case I should have mentioned. It was asserted by
> someone that "buckwheat" (xruba) is not a grain, and thus would not normally
> be in this category. Americans would probably think of rhubarb as a fruit,
> since we only know of it in pies. But in fact mw.com does say that the seed
> of the buckwheat plant is used as a cereal grain (presumably buckwheat
> pancakes are made of xruba pesxu). That buckwheat is a staple grain in
> Russia and other parts of Eurasia is why we added a gismu for the
> rhubarb/buckwheat plant.
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buckwheat?show=0&t=1367532771

xruba includes both rhubarb (sometimes used in fruitlike ways) and
buckwheat; neither is botanically a grain, but it's certainly true
that the culinary uses of buckwheat are entirely grain-like, leading
to breadlike products including the aforementioned pancakes and soba
noodles.

- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

[Ian Johnson]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG 

kanpe ki'a

{kanpe} is a (the?) BPFK-recognized experimental gismu, meaning "expect" without the "hope" connotations that {pacna} has, and with a structure paralleling that of {pacna}. 

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

[Robert LeChevalier]

Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 01:07:29PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote:
>>
>> I've stayed out of this thread hoping that the obvious question
>> would be raised:
>>
>> Can you or someone give a definition of a "noodle", making it
>> clear what is and is not to be considered?
>>
>> Here is what mw.com has
>>> Definition of NOODLE
>>>
>>> : a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form
>
> *Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not* a
> paste!

But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or not. Your
noodles are predominantly some kind of dasri, made of egg and flour paste.

> They may have been once upon a time, but I don't describe
> cake as "a goo of milk, grain and eggs"!

"Cake" is an English word for a form often made from such goo (tapla in
lojban). And it need not be edible - a cake of soap being an English
example. Again, it isn't inherent to the concept of "cake" that it is
edible, any more than "pasta". You can add cidja into the tanru if it
is important.

Of course, you may mean by cake "titnanba" which Americans call cake.
While the obvious English word for that concept actually refers a
particular kind of canti. As distinguished from the literal translation
for titrectu, which is grute joi sakta

Do we insist that Lojban words divide the world up as nonsensically as
English words do?

lojbab

[Craig Daniel]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Robert LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 01:07:29PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and
>> Founder - LLG wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I've stayed out of this thread hoping that the obvious question
>>> would be raised:
>>>
>>> Can you or someone give a definition of a "noodle", making it
>>> clear what is and is not to be considered?
>>>
>>> Here is what mw.com has
>>>>
>>>> Definition of NOODLE
>>>>
>>>> : a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form
>>
>>
>> *Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not* a
>> paste!
>
>
> But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or not. Your
> noodles are predominantly some kind of dasri, made of egg and flour paste.

I disagree. Pasta is a loanword from Italian, and the Italian word
means paste (or at least did at one time), but usually in English it
refers to an edible paste formed into some shape, then possibly dried,
cooked, or both; either of those processes will make it cease to have
a paste-like texture. Dried spaghetti in a box on the grocery-store
shelves are not paste, but they certainly have not ceased to be pasta.

[Robin Lee Powell]

Yes, exactly that.

-Robin

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 06:59:09PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 01:07:29PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier,
> >President and Founder - LLG wrote:
> >>
> >>I've stayed out of this thread hoping that the obvious question
> >>would be raised:
> >>
> >>Can you or someone give a definition of a "noodle", making it
> >>clear what is and is not to be considered?
> >>
> >>Here is what mw.com has
> >>>Definition of NOODLE
> >>>
> >>>: a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in
> >>>ribbon form
> >
> >*Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not*
> >a paste!
>
> But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or not.

The spaggheti I buy is not a paste. When I cook it, it is not
paste. When I eat it, it is not paste.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

> Your noodles are predominantly some kind of dasri, made of egg and
> flour paste.

*made of*, yes, but they are not themselves paste when I eat them,
which is the state I care about.

> >They may have been once upon a time, but I don't describe cake as
> >"a goo of milk, grain and eggs"!
>
> "Cake" is an English word for a form often made from such goo
> (tapla in lojban). And it need not be edible - a cake of soap
> being an English example.

I meant
http://pieceloveandchocolate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/cake1.jpg
, which was, in fact, a goo at some point in its creation.

> Again, it isn't inherent to the concept of "cake" that it is
> edible, any more than "pasta". You can add cidja into the tanru
> if it is important.
>
> Of course, you may mean by cake "titnanba" which Americans call
> cake.

{titnanba} is perfectly reasonable, yes.

> While the obvious English word for that concept actually
> refers a particular kind of canti. As distinguished from the
> literal translation for titrectu, which is grute joi sakta
>
> Do we insist that Lojban words divide the world up as
> nonsensically as English words do?

Of course not, but that wasn't my point. I want to talk about the
things I'm actually eating, not what they used to be at an arbitrary
time during their creation process. Spaghetti noodles are not
paste. Ravioli are not paste. Lasagna is not (usually) paste.
Fettucini is not paste.

-Robin

[John E Clifford]

Not a very satisfying "definition" as the "usually" and "typically" show.  (We pass over the fact that many noodle traditions don't use eggs and probably more use vermiform shapes than ribbon ones).

---

From: la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2013 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why is there no noodle gismu?

[Pierre Abbat]

On Thursday, May 02, 2013 18:43:32 Craig Daniel wrote:
> xruba includes both rhubarb (sometimes used in fruitlike ways) and
> buckwheat; neither is botanically a grain, but it's certainly true
> that the culinary uses of buckwheat are entirely grain-like, leading
> to breadlike products including the aforementioned pancakes and soba
> noodles.

"xruba" is the common name of Polygonaceae. Buckwheat is gruxruba or xrixruba.
Even though it's not gurni, I think it's okay to call pasta made of buckwheat
"grusko" or "grusri".

There are, though pastas that aren't skori or dasri, such as orzo, couscous
(not to be confused with xusxusu, which is vetiver/khuskhus), and alphabet
pasta. What should we call those?

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

Ian Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder -
> LLG
>
> kanpe ki'a
>
> {kanpe} is a (the?) BPFK-recognized experimental gismu,

Never heard of it.

BPFK hasn't recognized any experimental gismu, or even the possibility
of experimental gismu. There hasn't even been a procedure defined for
doing so (nor has the BPFK even been authorized to make changes to the
language other than as necessary to complete the baseline documentation,
though that authorization is foreseen, and the BPFK itself has the power
to decide what is "necessary").

The *only* change to the language that BPFK has recognized is xorlo.

kanpe will continue to get a ki'a from me if and when I encounter it.

[Robert LeChevalier]

Craig Daniel wrote:
>>>>> Definition of NOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>> : a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form
>>>
>>>
>>> *Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not* a
>>> paste!
>>
>> But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or not. Your
>> noodles are predominantly some kind of dasri, made of egg and flour paste.
>
> I disagree.

You are disagreeing with the dictionary then. See above for "noodle"
about which the same claim could be made as you do for pasta.

Paste can exist in a dried form or a hydrated form, and it is still
paste in either case.

> 1
> a : a dough that contains a considerable proportion of fat and is used for pastry crust or fancy rolls
> b : a confection made by evaporating fruit with sugar or by flavoring a gelatin, starch, or gum arabic preparation
> c : a smooth food product made by evaporation or grinding <tomato paste> <almond paste>
> d : a shaped dough (as spaghetti or ravioli) prepared from semolina, farina, or wheat flour

definition d is precisely the definition of pasta

> 1
> : paste in processed form (as macaroni) or in the form of fresh dough (as ravioli)

> Dried spaghetti in a box on the grocery-store
> shelves are not paste,

Alas, it still is. It is dried paste, but still paste.

lojbab

[selpa'i]

la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e

> Ian Johnson wrote:
>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder -
>> LLG
>>
>> kanpe ki'a
>>
>> {kanpe} is a (the?) BPFK-recognized experimental gismu,
>
> Never heard of it.
>
> BPFK hasn't recognized any experimental gismu, or even the possibility
> of experimental gismu. There hasn't even been a procedure defined for
> doing so (nor has the BPFK even been authorized to make changes to the
> language other than as necessary to complete the baseline documentation,
> though that authorization is foreseen, and the BPFK itself has the power
> to decide what is "necessary").

Here is the BPFK proposal for kanpe:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+gismu+Proposal%3A+kanpe

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

[Robert LeChevalier]

Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>> *Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are *not*
>>> a paste!
>>
>> But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or not.
>
> The spaggheti I buy is not a paste. When I cook it, it is not
> paste. When I eat it, it is not paste.

The (English) dictionary says otherwise.

You might argue that the definition that I gave pesxu too strongly
indicates the texture/moistness and thus cannot be applied to the dried
form, but the English word paste (and pasta) can be dry or moist.

I even checked and the adjective form "pasty" doesn't refer to the
texture or moistness.

> Seriously, what are you talking about?
>
>> Your noodles are predominantly some kind of dasri, made of egg and
>> flour paste.
>
> *made of*, yes, but they are not themselves paste when I eat them,
> which is the state I care about.

Sorry, but the dictionary disagrees.

>> Of course, you may mean by cake "titnanba" which Americans call
>> cake.
>
> {titnanba} is perfectly reasonable, yes.

One of the earliest lujvo made in Lojban.

>> While the obvious English word for that concept actually
>> refers a particular kind of canti. As distinguished from the
>> literal translation for titrectu, which is grute joi sakta
>>
>> Do we insist that Lojban words divide the world up as
>> nonsensically as English words do?
>
> Of course not, but that wasn't my point. I want to talk about the
> things I'm actually eating, not what they used to be at an arbitrary
> time during their creation process. Spaghetti noodles are not
> paste. Ravioli are not paste. Lasagna is not (usually) paste.
> Fettucini is not paste.

Sorry, but the dictionary disagrees.

lojbab

[Robert LeChevalier]

The wonders of lujvo is that they mean what they are defined to mean,
and are not restricted to their etymology. If we want pexsri to include
orzo, then it does.

I don't have sufficient knowledge of what distinguishes orzo or couscous
from any other kind of pasta to suggest a more specific lujvo. The
dictionary says "rice-shaped" which would give a modifier to pexsri.
Couscous might merely be friko(fi'or-) pexsri.

lojbab

[Robert LeChevalier]

It seems to be a proposal, in the cited page. But such proposals aren't
even on the BPFK agenda for consideration, and hence premature. It
happens to have been proposed by the BPFK jatna, but that doesn't mean
that it is approved or even "recognized" by the BPFK.

lojbab

[selpa'i]

la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e

> Ian Johnson wrote:
>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder -
>> LLG
>>
>> kanpe ki'a
>>
>> {kanpe} is a (the?) BPFK-recognized experimental gismu,
>
> Never heard of it.
>
> BPFK hasn't recognized any experimental gismu, or even the possibility
> of experimental gismu. There hasn't even been a procedure defined for
> doing so (nor has the BPFK even been authorized to make changes to the
> language other than as necessary to complete the baseline documentation,
> though that authorization is foreseen, and the BPFK itself has the power
> to decide what is "necessary").
>
> The *only* change to the language that BPFK has recognized is xorlo.

Does "recognized" mean accepted as official? As far as I can tell, not
even xorlo is immune to changes or future no-votes. From the "BPFK
Procedures" page:

"A poll is attached to the proposal page, where people vote to indicate
their approval of the proposal. Voters may change their vote at any time."

Anyone who was allowed to vote back then can change their mind and vote
no today, so technically, the BPFK has not made any final decisions
about anything. Yet, xorlo seems commonly accepted (though not generally
liked) and gets described as "official".

(The xorlo proposal got changed relatively recently, in December 2011.)

I think it's problematic to cling to a baseline that is over a decade
old. Lojban has evolved considerably in the meantime, and doing it this
way, the documentation might never catch up.

[John E Clifford]

In re xorlo: you need to distinguish between changes and clarifications.  sorlo was originally (and still is perhaps) somewhat unclear and there have been successive steps to clarify uncertainties.  But not, I think, real changes (but then, I probably just use my own version and don't pay much attention to what else is going one).

---

From: selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2013 9:10 AM
Subject: What is official? (Was: [lojban] Why is there no noodle gismu?)

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[Robert LeChevalier]

selpa'i wrote:
> Does "recognized" mean accepted as official? As far as I can tell, not
> even xorlo is immune to changes or future no-votes. From the "BPFK
> Procedures" page:
>
> "A poll is attached to the proposal page, where people vote to indicate
> their approval of the proposal. Voters may change their vote at any time."

Those are polls for the baseline description proposals, one for each
chunk that the cmavo were divided into. The polls are not final votes,
because they are only partial.
Since the BYFY baseline description pages are not supposed to represent
changes to the language, but rather documenting the baseline, the
proposals constitute pieces of the whole.

There is NO provision for the BYFY to consider changes to the language
OTHER THAN as required to document the baseline. It is understood that
when the baseline is completed, then such changes will be considered,
but what procedures the BYFY will use hasn't been decided.

The BYFY's sole job is to define the baseline.

> Anyone who was allowed to vote back then can change their mind and vote
> no today, so technically, the BPFK has not made any final decisions
> about anything. Yet, xorlo seems commonly accepted (though not generally
> liked) and gets described as "official".
>
> (The xorlo proposal got changed relatively recently, in December 2011.)

The xorlo proposal was adopted by a formal vote by the membership, if I
recall, circumventing the BYFY process. It is not subject to change
without another formal vote.

> I think it's problematic to cling to a baseline that is over a decade
> old.

Then people need to get things in gear and get the thing documented.

> Lojban has evolved considerably in the meantime, and doing it this
> way, the documentation might never catch up.

Lojban OFFICIALLY has not changed, regardless of whether people are
willing to accept this. This allows for evolution in semantics and
usage as people become more fluent, and growth of the non-baselined
lujvo and fu'ivla lexicons as well as experimental cmavo, but not for
changes in that which constitutes the baseline.

No one is authorized to even *consider* formal changes until the
baseline is documented.

As you have just seen, if someone uses non-standard language, I won't
recognize/understand it, and I suspect that many others won't either,
because they learned the language from the official documents and not
from the wiki. I'm not going to log onto the website every time I use
the language to see what new concoction someone has proposed.

And my understanding is that people want the language to continue to be
constrained to the formal definition, even after the baseline period has
ended, which was not my original intent. It needs to be accepted that
the formal language will *always* lag those who want to experiment with
new proposals.

lojbab

[Craig Daniel]

Right now xorlo is alone in having a *very* special status that is
more official than just "the BPFK likes it" and is, by design, hard to
add anything to. It's the first thing that was a big enough deal that
the BPFK membership (at least those with strong opinions on the
matter) was pushing for its immediate adoption, but many people felt
that as different parts of the BPFK's work will interact with each
other it is inappropriate to adopt a final baseline until we are ready
to do so for the entire language at once.

The compromise was to establish an interim baseline to the baseline
policy, consisting of things the BPFK feels fairly certain will end up
in that final baseline and that the membership sees as worth embracing
now. It's hard to add anything to the interim baseline, and that's
quite deliberate; the notion was that the interim baseline should only
reflect what changes the Lojban community feels unusually confident
about. Here's the official text of the ZG policy, as added to the BPFK
procedures at the 2007 LLG annual meeting:

"Any proposal which at least half of the BPFK membership has voted on
in a tentative vote with none voting against, may be submitted by the
BPFKJ to the general membership as a possible piece of the zasni
gafyfantymanri ("interim baseline", herein after referred to as the
ZG). Such a proposal requires a two-thirds majority of those voting
to vote in favor of it at the general membership meeting in order to
pass.

Voting something into the ZG has the following effects:

1. The proposal will be considered correct Lojban until such a time
the complete new baseline is established and approved by the
membership. Usage according to the CLL standard will not be considered
incorrect, but usage according to the ZG will be preferred.

2. The BPFK will recognize that such a vote indicates a desire by the
membership for the proposal in question to be included, in modified
form if necessary, when the new baseline is finished. Such a desire
will not be considered binding in any way.

3. The membership is encouraged to use the ZG standard in all
pedagogical contexts, and in all Lojban conversation.

The ZG will last only until the entire new baseline is written by the
BPFK and approved by the membership."

Thus far, xorlo is the only item that has ever been brought to the
membership for inclusion in the ZG (and, indeed, is the specific thing
this was written to allow us to make official to some degree), but the
procedure exists to add even more. (The "tentative vote" term refers
to the fact that all BPFK votes are tentative until the one about the
final baseline.) It is my firm hope that the BPFK is able to complete
its mission in a sufficiently rapid fashion that there will be little
if any need for more ZG material, but quite frankly I would vote in
favor of most reasonable proposals that made it past the first hurdle
(unanimity among BPFK members) and I imagine many other LLG voters
would do similarly. Still, I find it highly improbable that a proposal
to create new gismu will receive the support of a supermajority of the
LLG.

- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 05:28:17AM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >>>*Why* do people keep talking about {pesxu}? My noodles are
> >>>*not* a paste!
> >>
> >>But pasta IS "paste", by definition, whether your pasta is or
> >>not.
> >
> >The spaggheti I buy is not a paste. When I cook it, it is not
> >paste. When I eat it, it is not paste.
>
> The (English) dictionary says otherwise.

I don't care.

-Robin

[MorphemeAddict]

There's a question in the proposal under "Definition" about possible rafsi for kanpe. I see only three possibilities if only the letters of the word are used in their original order: kan, kap, and ka'e. All three are already in use (for kansa, skapi, kakne). Of course, there is always kanpy-. 

stevo

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[Robin Lee Powell]

To be slightly more useful:

In my dialect, no-one would *ever* point at a bowl of spaggheti or
fettucini or tortellini or ravioli and say "Wow, that's some nice
paste you've got there". It just ... no.

Similarily, no-one would ever point at a metal knife and say "What a
great rock!".

It is true that pasta was once a paste, and it is true that metal
used to be a rock, but in my dialect they are *not* synonyms. If
they are in your dialect, well, that's drift, but I'm a native
speaker, so we don't actually get to argue about this, merely state
the difference and move on.

But I think it's far more likely that you're pushing the point for
sake of argument, and I'd like you to stop.

[Michael Turniansky]

 Wow... lots of different stuff in this thread.

  1) I agree with Robin that in most English speakers' heads (cooks aside?), a "paste" is, well, gee, much like the the lojban definition of "pesxu", which includes "mud/slurry/puklp/mash" and "[soft, smooth-textured, moist solid]"  When dried, pasta is not moist, or soft, and certainly not a mud or slurry.  Nor is it after being cooked.  Therefore I don't think "pesxu" belongs in the veljvo be fo lo  lojbo xelfanva be zoi gy pasta gy, since at most points in times of encountering it, it is not a slurry.

  2)  Hmmm.. I suggested (and had accepted)  "mayvpesxu" for oatmeal/porridge in Karl Naylor's 2007 translation of Goldilocks http://mail.lojban.org/lists/lojban-beginners/msg04798.html, but I don't see it in jbovlaste.  Corrected.

  3)  uasai  Didn't know that buckwheat isn't a grain.

  4) side, culturally non-neutral note -- In US government regulations, a "noodle" must contain eggs and be ribbon shaped. http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=139&showFR=1  (except chow mein noodles, Ramen noodles, and other "Oriental noodles")

      --gejyspa

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