This turns out to be surprisingly tricky; many ideas have been shown
to be unworkable.
I think I might finally have something: mark FA as needing
terminator closure before it. Example:
mi denpa le nu do xruti fi le nu zutse
vs.
mi denpa le nu do xruti cu fi le nu zutse
"cu fi" means "close terminators, at least one, until a fi is
allowed". More than one cu would be allowed there, with the obvious
effect.
Please note that I am NOT attached to "cu" here; a postfix new cmavo
(i.e. "fi xu'u"), or whatever, would be fine. (IIRC postfix is
easier in terms of grammatical simplicity, but it's been a while).
-Robin
--
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is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
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So in this system "cu" becomes a generic shortcut for <insert all terminators that are applicable except for vau>?
... sounds cool if I'm understanding it correctly (probably not)
I wasn't proposing that it be general; that's been the problem in
the past. Trying to make a "pop back a sentence" general cmavo runs
into a lot of problems. I was just thinking about adding {cu FA} to
{cu SELBRI}.
-Robin
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No. Next outer bridi, not "main" bridi, whatever that might mean.
Same as {cu} works now:
mi djica le nu le klama cu xunre
> Can {CU} be followed by BAI? How about tags in general? It seems
> inconsistent to say that {cu fi} is good but {cu ca} is not. FA
> and PU behave the same in nearly all other respects. Why should
> they be different here?
Good point.
> For the record, I think it's a great idea. It seems a shame that
> with as useful as {cu} is, it's only allowed to be used to "pop
> out" to the main selbri.
--
It's perfectly grammatical, it's just not a sentence; it's a single
sumti describing an event, with "cumki" as the selbri for the event:
text
sumti6
|- CMAVO
| LE: lo
|- tanruUnit2
|- CMAVO
| NU: nu
|- sentence
|- sumti5
| |- CMAVO
| | KOhA: do
| |- relativeClause1
| |- CMAVO
| | NOI: poi
| |- bridiTail3
| |- tanruUnit2
| | |- CMAVO
| | | SE: se
| | |- BRIVLA
| | gismu: cinri
| |- sumti6
| |- CMAVO
| | LE: lo
| |- tanruUnit2
| |- CMAVO
| | NU: nu
| |- BRIVLA
| gismu: bajra
|- CMAVO
| CU: cu
|- BRIVLA
gismu: cumki
Compare "lo nu do poi se cinri lo nu bajra cu cumki cu xunre":
text
sentence
|- sumti6
| |- CMAVO
| | LE: lo
| |- tanruUnit2
| |- CMAVO
| | NU: nu
| |- sentence
| |- sumti5
| | |- CMAVO
| | | KOhA: do
| | |- relativeClause1
| | |- CMAVO
| | | NOI: poi
| | |- bridiTail3
| | |- tanruUnit2
| | | |- CMAVO
| | | | SE: se
| | | |- BRIVLA
| | | gismu: cinri
| | |- sumti6
| | |- CMAVO
| | | LE: lo
| | |- tanruUnit2
| | |- CMAVO
| | | NU: nu
| | |- BRIVLA
| | gismu: bajra
| |- CMAVO
| | CU: cu
| |- BRIVLA
| gismu: cumki
|- CMAVO
| CU: cu
|- BRIVLA
gismu: xunre
-Robin
I don't understand what neither the problem nor the solution is. Can you translate the second sentence into current Lojban, please?
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Your speaker should [...] not be suffering for a cold, or cough, or a
hangover. If something goes wrong [...] it is important that the speaker has
as similar a voice as with the original recording, waiting for another cold
to come along is not reasonable, (though some may argue that the same
hangover can easily be induced).
--Building Synthetic Voices, by Alan W. Black and Kevin A. Lenzo
mi denpa le nu do xruti kei vau ku fi le nu zutse
(yes, I know you don't need all three, but I certainly could come up
with an example where you did need 3 terminaters)
I wouldn't say it's a *problem*, just that something like this is a
nice-to-have.
Me neither.
>> Can you translate the second sentence into current Lojban, please?
>
> mi denpa le nu do xruti kei vau ku fi le nu zutse
(should be "vau kei ku")
> (yes, I know you don't need all three, but I certainly could come up
> with an example where you did need 3 terminaters)
Can you give a realistic example of when this would be useful, then?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
I found the example as-is perfectly useful; to me it is much easier
to think "I want to do the x3 of the next outer bridi now" and just
*say that* then have to figure out what I need to close to achieve
that result. The way I proposed fits the way I think about the
language a lot better.
How does the proposed "cu fi" differ from the current "vau fi" then?
"vau" tells you to terminate the current bridi and move on.
I seem to recall cases where vau wasn't sufficient to do what I
want, but nothing's coming to mind at the moment. The next time
that happens I'll try to take note.
----- Original Message ----
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 4:31:23 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cu-alike for other situations
-Robin
--
I don't think "cu" should be used like this. As currently defined, "cu" is the
predicate marker, and is very similar to "i" in Tok Pisin, which I learned
before Lojban. Using "cu" to mark that "fi" closes terminators is too weird
to me. If you can make some other cmavo work with "fi", I might be in favor
of it.
Pierre
--
La sal en el mar es más que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.
All this is a little outside my range, but Logjan has a history of right hand
end problems, both in specifying them and in using those specs correctly. Any
device that does this efficiently and surely would be universally welcomed
(after the carping about details and destroying the purity of the language are
over, of course).