[lojban] Re: ISO 639-2 request
Pierre Abbat
> >> You don't think the number of badyxu'e purchases shows it's at least
> >> over thirty?
> >
> >badyxu'e, eh? That's a new one...
>
> Actually, it isn't. Use of it is well-documented on the wiki.
Is it mijyjbo? I found some occurrences on the wiki glossed as "big red
thing", but {bad-} means "defend", not "big", which is {bra-}.
phma
Robin Lee Powell
> On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 12:11:40AM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > Craig scripsit:
> >
> > > >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language.
> > > >Lojban has
> > >
> > > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that.
> > > What's the subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
> >
> > Better safe than sorry.
>
> Then why not be safe about the fluency estimates also?
>
> My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
Mine too.
-Robin
--
Me: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** I'm a *male* Robin.
"but I'm not stupid and people are not stupid who think samely with me"
-- from an actual, real, non-spam mail sent to webm...@lojban.org
http://www.lojban.org/ *** .i cimo'o prali .ui
Robert LeChevalier
> > Yeah, same here. But I think there are probably interested people who
> aren't
> > regular posters. Probably.
>
>I find disingenuous the claim that there are people who are interested but
>aren't on the mailing list, unless they are in undeveloped regions where
>computer access is prohibitive. Yahoo offers digest format, and if that's
>too much of a Lojban overload, I daresay the interest level is rather
>slight.
The interest level could be high, but the time could be low. Even a lot of
people who are subscribed can't read the messages in that volume. Most of
the time Nora reads messages only on weekends, so in high volume times,
most of the stuff gets skipped. Others will simply decide they can't
bother, and will work by themselves on translations, or read stuff on the
wiki. Nora did this for over a year before she started reading the list at
all.
Digest doesn't cut the volume to be read, just the number of messages (and
it makes it harder to read a single thread).
A lot of people use hotmail and other sucb accounts that have very low
space limits. With current spam volumes, a couple of 20 per day mailing
lists can kill you allowed space over a weekend.
Meanwhile, there are some notables that have specifically chosen to avoid
the mailing list (I believe that Jay is one).
>I go by this: post a Lojban message to the main or members lists and see
>how many people bother reading it. Compare the results to an Esperanto
>list. As for students, fine: repeat it in 6 months' time.
The list membership is some 270. How many are actually reading of those
270 in unknown. But since the number has been 250-270 for the last 2
years, I wouldn't expect that there would be a much higher percentage that
would respond to your Lojban message than a year or two ago. I don't think
that the percentage that read the traffic is going to grow much - thus if
one assumes that new people are learning the language as is evident from
the beginners list, there are (at one time interested) people dropping off
the Lojban List as fast as new ones sign on.
At-one-time people could be quite skilled in the language. Nick was
off-list for years, but whether fluent or not he was quite
competent. Goran equally so, and he's barely popped in once in the last
half dozen years.
>But anything to inflate the numbers, right? I mean, those mabla
>Klingon upstarts are embarrassing us in the PR arena!!!!!
I try to be consistent. I figure that anyone who spends $40 for the book
has at least some interest, for one thing.
lojbab
--
lojbab loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
John Cowan
> >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language. Lojban has
>
> Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that. What's the
> subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
Better safe than sorry.
--
John Cowan jco...@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Is it not written, "That which is written, is written"?
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Jordan DeLong
[...]
> >> You didn't find Nick to be fluent when he was at LogFest?
> >>
> >> My count on fluency is 2. Nick, and Goran Topic (by Nick's report). I
> >> suspect that Jorge would qualify as well.
>
> >If you're going by that Nick-and-Goran conversation from 1995, I
> >don't think that was anywhere *close* to fluency.
>
> I have yet to see a tape or transcript of that, despite repeated promises
> from Nick.
There was a brief mp3 a while back. I don't know if it was the
whole conversation. But there was english and people asking what
gismu mean, and it didn't seem like Goran understood very much of
what Nick said.
> >Either way, though, 30 is just plain bogus. However, I'd think 30
> >is probably a pretty accurate count of the numer of people who are
> >interested in the language (for a definition of "interest" that
> >doesn't include people who've just heard of the language and lurk
> >on the mailing list).
>
> You don't think the number of badyxu'e purchases shows it's at least over
> thirty?
badyxu'e, eh? That's a new one...
There's a big difference between buying a book and taking an interest
in the language. (For example, I don't own a copy of the book).
Go by this: how many people do you regularly speak in lojban with?
For me it's about 5 of the people on IRC (though I've been hanging
out there a lot less regularly lately). How many do you regularly
speak *about* lojban with? For me it's the probably 20-30 regular
posters on this mailing list.
--
Jordan DeLong - frac...@allusion.net
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku
Rob Speer
> >> You don't think the number of badyxu'e purchases shows it's at least over
> >> thirty?
>
> >badyxu'e, eh? That's a new one...
>
The Wiki claims it means "big red thing", which would be "braxu'e",
while "badyxu'e" is "protecting red thing".
--
mu'o mi'e rab.spir
la_skat
> On Sat, 31 May 2003, Craig wrote:
<snip>
> > But I think there are probably interested people who aren't
regular posters. Probably.
>
> I find disingenuous the claim that there are people who are
interested but
> aren't on the mailing list, unless they are in undeveloped regions
where
> computer access is prohibitive. Yahoo offers digest format, and if
that's
> too much of a Lojban overload, I daresay the interest level is
rather
> slight.
Well, the claim wasn't "that there are people who are interested but
aren't on the mailing list." The claim was that "there are probably
interested people who aren't *regular posters*."
I think it quite likely that there are many interested people
who are not regular posters.
I count myself as an "interested person." I am not a regular
poster. Since this is probably my first post, I wouldn't even call
myself a poster of any sort, regular or otherwise. My lack of time,
and my lack of anything substantive to add to the discussion don't
make me any less interested.
I'm subscribed to the digest of both this list and the beginners'
list. I just barely have time to read them. I make the time
because I'm interested.
Scott Weller
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And Rosta
> >If you're going by that Nick-and-Goran conversation from 1995, I
> >don't think that was anywhere *close* to fluency
>
> from Nick
Transcribing is very onerous & Nick has many more pressing tasks. Let's
release him from his promise. Since it was me reminded the world of his
promise, I bear the greater share of culpability for the nagging.
--And.
Invent Yourself
> >For me it's about 5 of the people on IRC (though I've been hanging
> >out there a lot less regularly lately). How many do you regularly
> >speak *about* lojban with? For me it's the probably 20-30 regular
> >posters on this mailing list.
>
> Yeah, same here. But I think there are probably interested people who aren't
> regular posters. Probably.
I find disingenuous the claim that there are people who are interested but
aren't on the mailing list, unless they are in undeveloped regions where
computer access is prohibitive. Yahoo offers digest format, and if that's
too much of a Lojban overload, I daresay the interest level is rather
slight.
I go by this: post a Lojban message to the main or members lists and see
how many people bother reading it. Compare the results to an Esperanto
list. As for students, fine: repeat it in 6 months' time.
But anything to inflate the numbers, right? I mean, those mabla
Klingon upstarts are embarrassing us in the PR arena!!!!!
--
.o'i mu xagji sofybakni cu zvati le purdi
[Caution!] There are five hungry Soviet cows in the garden!
Robert LeChevalier
> >Name(s) of language (indigenous): la lojban. [note required final dot,
> >NOT a period]
>
> >If giving variant names, indicate preferred form first
>
>Acceptable variants ought to include le jbobau and le lojbo, probably in
>that order.
>
> >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language. Lojban has
>
>Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that. What's the
>subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
270 on lojban list via yahoo, plus a few more via lojban.org. But some of
these are duplicates and dead addresses.
Unknown numbers on the other lists.
A substantial percentage of LLG voting members do not subscribe to the main
list because of high volume. Probably a higher percentage of people with
some level of interest in the language don't subscribe.
Close to 400 copies of CLL sold.
Around 1000 people on the current partially weeded snail mail list, which
hasn't been updated for a few years.
lojbab
--
lojbab loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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Craig
>NOT a period]
>If giving variant names, indicate preferred form first
Acceptable variants ought to include le jbobau and le lojbo, probably in
that order.
>perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language. Lojban has
Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that. What's the
subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
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Gregory Dyke
i ti jai cipra leka se bangu la lojban kei rodo
i ko spuda mrilu mi po'o fau lenu do tcidu je jimpe ti
mu'o mi'e greg
Robin Lee Powell
> At 12:07 AM 5/31/03 -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 01:56:52AM -0500, Jordan DeLong wrote:
> >> On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 12:11:40AM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the
> >> > > >language. Lojban has
> >> > >
> >> > > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that.
> >> > > What's the subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
> >> >
> >> > Better safe than sorry.
> >>
> >>
> >> My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
> >
> >Mine too.
>
Nick and I agreed that neither of us were fluent when we discussed
it after a couple of hours of Lojban conversation.
We're both very, very good, but not fluent by our own standards.
Jorge Llamb�as
la lojbab cusku di'e
> My count on fluency is 2. Nick, and Goran Topic (by Nick's report). I
> suspect that Jorge would qualify as well.
I think I am more or less at their level, though Goran is likely
out of practice now. I suspect there are a few others at more or
less the same level as well. I spoke with Robin.ca by phone
once and we managed to understand each other fairly well. However,
I don't think any of us is fluent in the usual sense of the word.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Robert LeChevalier
>On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 01:56:52AM -0500, Jordan DeLong wrote:
> > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 12:11:40AM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > > Craig scripsit:
> > >
> > > > >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language.
> > > > >Lojban has
> > > >
> > > > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that.
> > > > What's the subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
> > >
> > > Better safe than sorry.
> >
> > Then why not be safe about the fluency estimates also?
> >
> > My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
>
>Mine too.
You didn't find Nick to be fluent when he was at LogFest?
My count on fluency is 2. Nick, and Goran Topic (by Nick's report). I
suspect that Jorge would qualify as well.
lojbab
Craig
>> >> > > >Lojban has
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that.
>> >> > > What's the subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
>> >> >
>> >> > Better safe than sorry.
>> >>
>> >> Then why not be safe about the fluency estimates also?
>> >>
>> >> My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
>> >
>> >Mine too.
>>
>> You didn't find Nick to be fluent when he was at LogFest?
>>
>> My count on fluency is 2. Nick, and Goran Topic (by Nick's report). I
>> suspect that Jorge would qualify as well.
>If you're going by that Nick-and-Goran conversation from 1995, I
>don't think that was anywhere *close* to fluency.
I have yet to see a tape or transcript of that, despite repeated promises
from Nick.
>Either way, though, 30 is just plain bogus. However, I'd think 30
>is probably a pretty accurate count of the numer of people who are
>interested in the language (for a definition of "interest" that
>doesn't include people who've just heard of the language and lurk
>on the mailing list).
You don't think the number of badyxu'e purchases shows it's at least over
thirty?
Jorge Llamb�as
la pier cusku di'e
> > >badyxu'e, eh? That's a new one...
> >
> > Actually, it isn't. Use of it is well-documented on the wiki.
>
> Is it mijyjbo? I found some occurrences on the wiki glossed as "big red
> thing", but {bad-} means "defend", not "big", which is {bra-}.
i xu xunre gi'e bandu le censa kamsto be le bangu lei palci ke stika troci
Jordan DeLong
>
> > >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language. Lojban has
> >
> > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that. What's the
> > subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
>
> Better safe than sorry.
Then why not be safe about the fluency estimates also?
My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
--
John Cowan
> If
> granted to be deprecated, this will cause the existing art-lojban, though it
> will remain usable.
Trying again:
If granted, this will cause the existing art-lojban to be deprecated, though
it will remain usable.
"Regular expressions are ha-ard."
--Systems Programmer Barbie
--
De plichten van een docent zijn divers, John Cowan
die van het gehoor ook. jco...@reutershealth.com
--Edsger Dijkstra http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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John Cowan
archive, I have requested the ISO 639 code "jbo" for Lojban. If
granted to be deprecated, this will cause the existing art-lojban, though it
Request for new language code
Criteria for requesting new language codes.
ISO 639-2 or ISO 639-1
Name(s) of language (English): (Required) Lojban
If giving variant names, indicate preferred form first
Name(s) of language (French): lojban
If giving variant names, indicate preferred form first
Reference where found:
http://www.lojban.org/publications/brochures/brochure_french.txt
Name(s) of language (indigenous): la lojban. [note required final dot,
NOT a period]
If giving variant names, indicate preferred form first
Reference where found:
http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/intro.html
If in non-Roman script and supplying a romanized form, indicate
transliteration system used, if possible: None.
Evidence of sufficient number of documents to establish separate code
per ISO 639-2 Annex A A.2.1 (request by one agency with 50 documents
or five agencies with a total of 50 among them). Please cite name of
institution(s) where documents are held and number at each. Example:
Library of Congress (65) (Required)
The Logical Language Group, a non-profit Virginia (U.S.) corporation,
holds a substantial archive in paper and electronic form of documents
in Lojban. There are at least 100 Lojban documents in this archive,
including original prose and poetry, translations, personal letters,
and other works. Many of these works are also available online.
See http://www.lojban.org for contact information.
Additional information (e.g., estimated number of speakers, official
status, where spoken):
Lojban is a constructed language with several purposes, originally
designed to test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but now extended to
international communication, human-computer communication, and others.
There are about 30-40 fluent speakers in all parts of the world, and
perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language. Lojban has
no official status anywhere.
Request addition in (Note that ISO 639-1 is a subset of ISO 639-2):
ISO 639-2 only -- yes ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2 -- no
Code suggestions (Note that there is no guarantee that these codes will
be assigned): Alpha-3 code: (ISO 639-2)
jbo
Alpha-2 code: (ISO 639-1)
None.
Submitter of request
Name: (Required) John Cowan
E-mail: (Required) co...@ccil.org
Status of submitter in relation to language (e.g., Speaker of language;
Academic/language teacher):
Non-fluent speaker of language, Vice President of Logical Language Group.
Note: We are requesting the code "jbo" because it seems unlikely to be
assigned to any other language, is not used by the Ethnologue, and is a
combining form (bound morpheme) meaning "Lojban(ic)", in such words as
jbopli, Lojban user, and jbota'a, to talk in Lojban.
--
Not to perambulate John Cowan <jco...@reutershealth.com>
the corridors http://www.reutershealth.com
during the hours of repose http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
in the boots of ascension. --Sign in Austrian ski-resort hotel
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Jordan DeLong
> >On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 01:56:52AM -0500, Jordan DeLong wrote:
> >> On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 12:11:40AM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> >> > Craig scripsit:
> >> >
> >> > > >perhaps 300 who have some level of interest in the language.
> >> > > >Lojban has
> >> > >
> >> > > Huh. The last statistics I heard were way higher than that.
> >> > > What's the subscriptions on the mailing lists up to?
> >> >
> >> > Better safe than sorry.
> >>
> >> Then why not be safe about the fluency estimates also?
> >>
> >> My count on fluency is a nice big 0.
> >
> >Mine too.
>
> You didn't find Nick to be fluent when he was at LogFest?
>
> My count on fluency is 2. Nick, and Goran Topic (by Nick's report). I
> suspect that Jorge would qualify as well.
If you're going by that Nick-and-Goran conversation from 1995, I
don't think that was anywhere *close* to fluency.
Hell, Robin and I had a far more-fluent conversation than that on
the phone a little while ago, and it was still quite choppy (lots
of "xu do jimpe").
Nick may have improved since then, of course, but I seriously doubt
he's fluent by normal standards (no offense to nick intended).
Either way, though, 30 is just plain bogus. However, I'd think 30
is probably a pretty accurate count of the numer of people who are
interested in the language (for a definition of "interest" that
doesn't include people who've just heard of the language and lurk
on the mailing list).
--
Craig
>> thirty?
>badyxu'e, eh? That's a new one...
Actually, it isn't. Use of it is well-documented on the wiki.
>There's a big difference between buying a book and taking an interest
>in the language. (For example, I don't own a copy of the book).
Right. Neither do I. But you don't buy the book without an interest in the
language.
>Go by this: how many people do you regularly speak in lojban with?
None. I use IRC occasionally - though it will be more regular during the
parts of the summer while I'm home.
>For me it's about 5 of the people on IRC (though I've been hanging
>out there a lot less regularly lately). How many do you regularly
>speak *about* lojban with? For me it's the probably 20-30 regular
>posters on this mailing list.
Yeah, same here. But I think there are probably interested people who aren't
regular posters. Probably.
John Cowan
> Any news on the code "jbo" for Lojban?
No, and I wouldn't hold your breath. I will hear about it if is
approved (disapproved requests either just vanish or there haven't
been any).
--
Henry S. Thompson said, / "Syntactic, structural, John Cowan
Value constraints we / Express on the fly." jco...@reutershealth.com
Simon St. Laurent: "Your / Incomprehensible http://www.reutershealth.com
Abracadabralike / schemas must die!" http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Pierre Abbat
> Pierre Abbat scripsit:
> > Any news on the code "jbo" for Lojban?
>
> No, and I wouldn't hold your breath. I will hear about it if is
> approved (disapproved requests either just vanish or there haven't
> been any).
According to the FAQ, "The original requester will be informed of the JAC
decision in six weeks to two months from submission of the original request."
If you haven't heard by now, I suggest you contact them and check whether
they still have it.
phma
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.
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Pierre Abbat
phma
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John Cowan
> According to the FAQ, "The original requester will be informed of the JAC
> decision in six weeks to two months from submission of the original request."
> If you haven't heard by now, I suggest you contact them and check whether
> they still have it.
Done.
--
John Cowan
jco...@reutershealth.com
I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin