mei

[Luke Bergen]

Looking at http://vlasisku.lojban.org/mei I would guess that the x1 of {Xmei} would be a mass formed from a set (x2) whose X members are (x3).

But then I look at http://vlasisku.lojban.org/cimei and it says that x1 is a set.  So if I talk about {lo cimei gerku cu batci lo mripre} am I saying that as a mass, the three dogs bit the mailman or am I saying that the set of three dogs bites the mailman? 

I forget some of the differences between sets and masses.  I think if a set of 3 things does a thing then all 3 must have done it individually where as long as 1 of a mass of 3 does a thing then the entire mass has done it.  So there is certainly a difference in meaning.

So which is it?

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday 12 October 2010 16:47:19 Luke Bergen wrote:
> Looking at http://vlasisku.lojban.org/mei I would guess that the x1 of
> {Xmei} would be a mass formed from a set (x2) whose X members are (x3).
>
> But then I look at

> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/cimei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/mei> and

> it says that x1 is a set. So if I talk about {lo cimei gerku cu batci lo
> mripre} am I saying that as a mass, the three dogs bit the mailman or am I
> saying that the set of three dogs bites the mailman?
>
> I forget some of the differences between sets and masses. I think if a set
> of 3 things does a thing then all 3 must have done it individually where as
> long as 1 of a mass of 3 does a thing then the entire mass has done it. So
> there is certainly a difference in meaning.
>
> So which is it?

Both "cimei" and "mei" were entered by officialdata, so it's a conflict
between the gimste and the ma'oste or within the ma'oste. (I'm leaving in a
few minutes for a meeting, so I can't look it up now.)

A set of dogs can't bite. It can only have members and do some things like
simxu. A mass of dogs can bite, as can a dog. Taking bacteria instead of
dogs, loi jurme bene'i mi cu mleca loi mivysle be mi .iku'i lo'i jurme bene'i
mi cu zmadu lo'i mivysle be mi .iki'ubo lo jurme cu mutce mleca lo remna
mivysle (the mass of bacteria in me is smaller than the mass of my cells, but
the set of bacteria in me is larger than the set of my cells, because a
bacterium is much smaller than a human cell).

Pierre

--
La sal en el mar es más que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So which is it?

At the risk of irritating some people, I will say it's neither.

To me, "ci mei" means "x1 are three x2", and has nothing to do with
sets or masses. For example:

ta ci mei lo gerku
"Those are three dogs."

lo ralju jdazei cu ze mei
"The capital sins are seven."

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Luke Bergen]

Ok, but you're using cimei and zemei as selbri.  I'm talking about the x1 of cimei (lo cimei) which in your example is ta.  So in your example is <ta> a set or a mass?

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[Jorge Llambías]

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, but you're using cimei and zemei as selbri.  I'm talking about the x1 of
> cimei (lo cimei) which in your example is ta.  So in your example is <ta> a
> set or a mass?

It's most definitely not a set, They are dogs, not a set. The referent
of "ta" can never be a set, since a set is an abstract thing and
cannot be pointed at.

I don't really care if they are a "mass", it doesn't matter as long as
they are three.