Re: [lojban] You're Doing it Wrong
Robin Lee Powell
> Why hasn't the CLL been updated? Or the L4B? Why is this "xorlo"
> thing even here when I see no way of clearly learning it? That
> made me feel stupid and frustrated. Why does it seem like no one
> is updating anything? Why does it seem like the community has
> died? Then I found Robin's essay on his blog,
> http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=Lojban:+You%27re+Doing+It+Wrong
>
> Finally, someone who felt as I did. Someone who could give me
> answers. Someone who could show me the light. Then I became sad.
> This was written in February, and yet nothing has changed. No one
> was talking about it. The hope I had while reading the essay, then
> died. It seemed to confirm my feelings. No one cared.
There was a bunch of discussion at the time. Apparently it was
mostly in IRC? as I can't find anything on the mailing list. Maybe
it was the LLG Member's list, dunno.
Anyways. Many things were said. Many promises were made. Some
BPFK work was actually done. But not much. And then it basically
stopped. And here we are.
If you want stuff done around here, I'm afraid you have to do it
yourself.
-Robin
--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
.alyn.post.
I'm personally inspired by Robin's essay as well, and hope to
manifest as much of it as I can.
The quickest summary I have of the situation is this:
a) There are too few fluent speakers of Lojban.
b) There are influential people in Lojbanistan that resist change
to the status quo. Either actively or simply by non-engagement.
c) Some of these people *may* become less resistant to changing
the status quo with a greater number of fluent speakers.
Most particularly having enough fluent speakers to conduct
conversations about changing the baseline in Lojban, rather
than discussing it in English.
d) Even if that's not true, demographics are on the side of
changing the baseline. The timeline is only a matter of
our ability to create more fluent speakers.
e) The first and best thing you can do for Lojbanistan is to learn
Lojban. It would be great if you wanted to clean up and add
learning material while you go, but make that secondary to using
the language.
This community is still bootstrapping itself. We have the most
well-specified lanugage ever, and the situation you describe is
exactly where we're at. If you want something better than this
it frankly doesn't exist today, you have to help make it happen.
-Alan
--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
Jameson Orndorff
personal failing of mine. While the community did a great job editing
and compiling that, I sort of stopped having time to teach and thus
generate the content that drove the wave. Trust me when I say that I
want to continue to work on it. I really believe in the methodology I
use to teach lojban and want to use a strong method to attract and
retain people. Since you did read it, aside from the cutoff and the
sort of roughness to it, did you find it reasonably useful?
Please stop by IRC, irc.freenode.net #lojban and come chat with us.
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>
Frank
Lindar
the language and teaching it, I'm riding the line of homelessness on a
regular basis and trying to survive in a very harsh environment.
The reason the CLL hasn't been updated is because we've had other
(more important) things to do. It's very much the least of our
concerns, especially as it isn't meant to be teaching material (it's
meant to specify and outline the language, hence 'reference grammar').
Currently we (the BPFK) are busy with http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Sections
trying to completely and accurately define every word in the language.
When this gets done, then we have a dictionary project to work on (the
language will not be unfrozen until we publish the dictionary). So we
need to accurately define everything we currently have in the language
(and decide on what changes to the languages should be made official
and how any issues can be resolved), then we need to generate enough
vocabulary to fill an English-Lojban dictionary, THEN we need to work
on the CLL2, THEN we need to work on a new content management system
to replace jbovlaste, THEN we have a million other things to do after
that.
So, really, get on IRC and talk to us. We'll be glad to teach you
stuff. You can call or text/e-mail/skype me ( +1(213)308-2590,
lindarthebard at yahoo dot com, lindarthebard) any time you like and I
will answer as soon as I possibly can. Your best bet is to get on
FreeNode and come to our IRC channel ( irc://irc.freenode.net/lojban
). We love to teach, we'll help you with any problems you may have, we
won't throw books at you, there's a 65-70% chance that at any given
moment there are at least three people willing to give you a lesson on
the spot.
tl;dr shit sucks. you fix it, we're busy.
I look forward to meeting you on IRC. <3
Brian Shannon
I've been trying to learn lojban for a short while now and have
encountered these difficulties too. One of the most frustrating things
for me is that while many learning resources have been created,
(almost?) all of them are dead or incomplete.
Looking at github and other resources...
cilre - dead, incomplete
cll - dead!? incomplete
clixra - dead, probably incomplete
friendly-lojban - dead, probably incomplete
l4b - dead, incomplete
wave lessons - dead, incomplete
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lojban - far from complete, and I believe dead
http://lodockikumazvati.org/ - alive! Though, I'm not sure I understand it yet
http://www.teddyb.org/jsk/ - I have no idea. Seems cool.
The wave lessons are extremely valuable. I intend to extract them from
google wave (since the service is closing at the end of the year).
Luke Bergen
--
John E Clifford
means "Let my usage be decisive." Most of the conflicts (not quite all; some
come under problems of logic in one sense or another) arise when two usages
conflict (often under the disguise of the "correct" interpretation of some
remark in CLL or subsequently). The problem with setting up an authority is
then the same as the problem of letting usage decide: how to find the right
people to follow. That requires a set of objective guidelines and objective
judges to see that they are adhered to and so on. That is, we can still push
the starting date back indefinitely trying to do it right. So, someone just
needs to do what BPFK was designed to do, write a description of the language in
its current state (as he sees it) and then we can haggle. When you look at the
problems, they are rarely in the core of the language (the bits that actually
come from logic, say) but mainly in the plethora of cmavo, which seem to pop
into existence (mainly back in the early 90s, to be sure) like mildew. Happily,
like the French shepherd, you can live your whole Lojban life without ever using
the Lojban analog of the pluperfect subjunctive. Tell newbies (and oldbies, for
that matter) to avoid those spots and, when one comes up, make that a teaching
opportunity to expound the particular word/phrase/construction involved, to be
referred back to ever after. As for xorlo, it is at least 90% right (the places
where problems arise can be numbered in the dozens at most, I think, out of
thousands) and, with proper explanation (logic to the rescue again) the
remaining cases should give very little trouble at all, once the basic notion
(which everybody seems to get with 'le') is under control.
--
Lindar
The message board is actually thriving.
We're on IRC all the time.
We've spread out into social networks a bit.
We've got an internet talk show starting.
We're (still!!) planning a cartoon show.
Everyone here knows Robin, and we're all familiar with his essays.
(He likes to rant in short-story format.)
He's at least two vertebrae in the backbone of the community.
Frankly, we've been growing in activity, and I'm a bit put-off by your
perception of us.
You involved yourself with non-interactive learning media and then
seemed put-off by the lack of community. Then when you found it, it
was kinda like walking out into the middle of Los Angeles and saying,
"Wow, this place is a dump. Why doesn't anybody fix these cracks in
the ground? ...does anybody actually live here?".
We're aware of the cracks. If you stop staring at them and look up for
a moment, you'll notice all the people walking around. Go talk to one
of them. =P
*end additional thoughts/comments/amusements*
A. PIEKARSKI
>
> Additionally, we're all human with lives of our own. As much as I love
> the language and teaching it, I'm riding the line of homelessness on a
> regular basis and trying to survive in a very harsh environment.
>
> The reason the CLL hasn't been updated is because we've had other
> (more important) things to do.
That may be the truth, but it's not the whole truth. The real problem is
(and has been admitted to by some 'oldies' on occasion) is one
particular aspect of lojbanic culture: Most lojbanists love exciting new
projects (often based on new technology and new software) but get bored
quickly, and move on to the next exciting project and.....
totus
Lindar
Perhaps the online version has not had all of the error corrected from
the online version to the print version, but it's an actual real
physical book which the LLG sells. Nevermind that it's no LOnger up to
date (pun intended there).
There's a lot of value in the wave lessons, and sadly it has come to a
halt as people have wives/husbands/boyfriends/girlfriends (I mean this
literally, some people have a couple of them here. That shit gets
tough to manage.) jobs (again, literally jobS plural in some cases),
friends, and many other problems.
In short, projects get dropped. It's something that happens. Life
comes before play, and not just in the dictionary.
Also, yeah, that's an awesome description of me. Once you get past the
harsh harsh sandpapery exterior, you'll find the delicious caramel and
nougat interior with bits of dark chocolate. =P
...or maybe... I'm like nattou... cos... I smell bad... and look
gross... and gaijin intensely dislike me?
I thought I was going somewhere with that, but now I just want nattou.
~____~ It's delicious.
Also... I didn't know there were people that wanted specifically to
learn from a book. I guess that explains Esperanto (apparently their
entire community is made up of people that learn that way exclusively
and they have no grass-roots teaching programmes like we do).
=D Maybe when I find the time (HAH! That's funny... time...) I'll
write "Lindar's Guide to Lodgebans".
I'll be a dick through the entire book. It'll be a funny level 0 book
to replace L4B/WIL.
I've done enough teaching to be qualified.
Brian Shannon
> You involved yourself with non-interactive learning media and then
> seemed put-off by the lack of community.
I'm put off by the lack of activity around incomplete learning
materials for newcomers such as myself - not by a lack of community.
Luke Bergen
A. PIEKARSKI
'Blaming the public' is never a good strategy for politicians.
'Blaming newbies' is never a good strategy for the Lojban establishment.
Why don't we consider how we can get a bunch of disallusioned newbies
together, and ask them what we need to do to intrigue, teach and retain them?
totus
.alyn.post.
I just noticed you're signed up to the {lo do ckiku ma zvati} play
list. If you write an e-mail there saying hello, I'll start a game
with you and we can learn Lojban together.
.alyn.post.
> 'Blaming the customer' is never a good�strategy for business.
> 'Blaming the public' is never a good strategy for politicians.
> 'Blaming newbies' is never a good strategy for the Lojban establishment.
>
> Why don't we consider how we can get a bunch of disallusioned newbies
> together, and ask them what we need to do to intrigue, teach and retain them?
>
Oh oh! Yes! Let's do that.
I have one request (from this very totus) to improve the
introductory material on my website. To provide an overview beyond
the three sentences of the home page about what the game is and how
to play it. I've comitted to totus to have something there by the
end of next week.
What would make you play {lo do ckiku ma zvati} with me? What kind
of invitation do you need that I'm not providing?
Krzysztof Sobolewski
> Also... I didn't know there were people that wanted specifically to
> learn from a book.
Then you didn't know I exist ;) I learned, or at least started learning, Lojban by reading CLL cover-to-cover (except bits like the formal grammar). And only *then* I had this epiphany that I should go and subscribe to this list ;)
Let me try to characterize this kind of person: introvert. I know that it's really hard for extraverts to understand us, so don't worry, I understand you ;)
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Hold me now, I'm 6 feet from the edge and I'm thinking,
Maybe 6 feet ain't so far down..." - S. Stapp
Jorge Llambías
>
> Also... I didn't know there were people that wanted specifically to
> learn from a book. I guess that explains Esperanto (apparently their
> entire community is made up of people that learn that way exclusively
> and they have no grass-roots teaching programmes like we do).
You mean some grass-roots teaching programme like http://en.lernu.net/ ?
When we have something like that (in 24 languages), we can begin to
compare ourselves to Esperanto. In the meantime, let's not.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Lindar
Ehm... perhaps I was not clear?
I'm not blaming the customer.
Did you not notice me giving out my personal information?
Seriously, feel free to contact me.
It's not a joke. That's my personal mobile phone number.
Also, apparently people like the idea of me writing a quick guide to
Lojban, so I might actually do it.
I'm going to try to make it a one-week project. This means I will not
be starting it this week, and probably not next.
However, I will make it complete enough to get people up to basic
conversation.
Okay, and again, totally serious if you didn't catch this.
My phone number is plus one left paren two one three right paren three
zero eight hyphen two five nine zero.
This is a west coast united states phone number. If you're within the
US/Canada and can call that number, please feel free to call or text
me. I'm also on IRC and Skype ( lindarthebard ). I will respond to all
questions/comments/concerns as soon as I am able.
We really are working on bring stuff up to gear. We're just short on
labour due to life being more important.
So, fine young newbies, enjoy your stay in Lojbanistan. Read through
the wave lessons a few times if you're a reader, ask me or anybody on
IRC if you're a person-learner (like I am!). Also, seriously for
serious, I'm here if you have questions.
Let me know how I can help you guys, because you seem to have a very
specific need, and I would like to address that. Extending our rape-
tentacles of learning is what I like to do the most, and if I can
reach you with those tentacles, I will be most happy.
=D
tl;dr
Dude, I gave out my personal number. You want a free lunch, too?
A. PIEKARSKI
Thanks for asking, Alan. My learning strategy was and is:
1) Study Lojban for Beginners
2) Study CLL
3) Use Quizlet.com to learn vocabulary
4) Read progressively more difficult texts starting with children's
books and request claification from the authors. I'm currently
into Alice in Wonderland, version 2
5) Propose definitions for lujvo in the above texts
6) Go interactive.
I'm currently at 4) and 5).
If your introductory text sells me the benefits of your approach,
that will do for 6).
ki'e
totus
Luke Bergen
Michael Turniansky
Ooh, ooh! Can I play "blame the newbie"? Fact is, we were ALL
newbies once. Every single one of us. Even lojbab, the inventor of
lojban. And all of us who are in the community today learned with at
MOST the amount of material you have at your disposal, and in many
cases, a lot less. So obviously, it's out there, it's sufficient for
the purposes of learning, and it's getting more and more each day. I
personally learned by reading the CLL cover-to-cover, then the gismu
lists. CLL is far from dead or incomplete. I skipped L4B (also far
from dead or incomplete) but many people find it just great. IRC was
a dark and scary place when I first started, with oldbies more likely
to bite your head off than be welcoming (not all, just the prevailing
oeuvre). Thankfully, that has changed drastically. Less kvetching
and more requesting what is you need in order to help you learn would
be a more effective tactic.
--gejyspa
Jonathan Jones
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Jonathan Jones
coi djemysyn.I did find the first few sections /very/ helpful, Myself. Does Anyone have a copied of the wave pulled out for reposting on another site?mi'e xuinkrbin.
There's a html export available somewhere. Give me a second and I'll find it.
http://jbotcan.org/wave_lesson/old.html
--
Jonathan Jones
And no one mentioned the Smart.fm lessons, which are both alive AND complete?
Lojban gismu - structure, places
Lojban gismu - structure
Lojban gismu - per-place sumti
Lojban cmavo, with no compounds
Lojban cmavo, with some compounds
http://smart.fm/goals/search?autodetected=lojban&keyword=&language=jboJonathan Jones
I think there's more truth to the "oh! new exciting technology/project.... ok I'm bored... oh! new exciting technology/project... ok I'm bored..." argument. At least from my perspective.It is unfortunate. But I would be willing to hazard a guess that at least 75% of jbopre have diagnosable ADD.
I have ADhD, which is basically the same thing, and that is exactly why I drop stuff. Then I stay away from them for long enough and they become new and exiting again! w00t!
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Brian Shannon <teapot.ph...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...
> You involved yourself with non-interactive learning media and thenI'm put off by the lack of activity around incomplete learning
> seemed put-off by the lack of community.
materials for newcomers such as myself - not by a lack of community.
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Stela Selckiku
conservative about it, but it's still young and changing fairly
quickly. There's more changing than in your average natlang, and the
things that are changing are more fundamental, since we're still
hammering out some of the core grammar and inventing basic vocabulary.
Every language changes, though. Consider: The changes over English
in the same recent decades, such as the introduction of the words
"w00t" and "omg" and "tl;dr", haven't been integrated into most of the
learning materials for English (dictionaries, textbooks, etc) even
though English has literally more than a million times more speakers
than us and leagues of professional educators.
Everyone in Lojbanistan makes their own choices about how to improve
the condition of our teaching materials. There are a lot of rough and
unfinished projects out there that people tried to put together. I
don't think that's a failing, it's just a sign that we're open about
what we're working on and that we're trying to be helpful, but also
that none of us are professional language educators or textbook
writers or getting paid to do this. The bright side is that if you're
willing to overlook the mess it's all in, there's more than enough
material out there to teach you Lojban. If you explore all the
half-finished projects and sprawling wiki conversations and archived
arguments and so forth you'll eventually know as much about Lojban as
we do. That's what it is to know Lojban at this point in history, is
to know all the same arguments we keep having and the same confusing
explanations we keep giving, to know the inside jokes we share and the
buggy programs we rely on. There's no perfect polished Lojban we're
keeping secret from you around the corner, it really is just this
crazy beast you see, though it does work fairly well in practice.
What I'm personally working on, as far as basic teaching materials, is
video lessons. Up until now there have been no audio or video lessons
at all. What I'm doing is just to talk into a camera sometimes and
explain some basic things about Lojban. It's not very organized, I
just have a vague sense of what I've talked about so far (not much)
and what's left to cover (lots of stuff). At this very moment I'm
uploading a video that's nearly 14 minutes of me walking around in the
woods trying my best to explain the basic idea of sumti and how to use
them in a bridi. I haven't covered lo/le yet, but since you asked
I'll try to do my best today to explain that (I'm going to do it from
the perspective of teaching the controversy/history). If you have any
other requests for what I should talk about, I'd be happy to oblige.
I'm planning soon to make some playlists to separate out lessons in
English vs simple demonstrative Lojban vs me blabbing about stuff in
Lojban vs my little songs, but so far it's all just in a jumble sorry:
http://youtube.com/selckiku
Thanks for your interest in Lojban. If you can tolerate our quirks,
we'd be very pleased to have you as a Lojbanist, as a conversation
partner, and as a friend.
mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o
Jonathan Jones
My first action to learning Lojban was to order the ".i la.lojban. mo" and "CLL" books, print out the "L4B", read all of them cover to cover, and then I think I joined jboselkei. his was way back in like, 2003 or so. I joined the lojban lists back then too, but I was a total lurker. It wasn't until about the middle of last year that I started extroverting actively.
.alyn.post.
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Brian Shannon
> <[1]teapot.ph...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm very new here so take what I say with a pinch of salt.
>
> I've been trying to learn lojban for a short while now and have
> encountered these difficulties too. One of the most frustrating things
> for me is that while many learning resources have been created,
> (almost?) all of them are dead or incomplete.
>
> Looking at github and other resources...
> cilre - dead, incomplete
> cll - dead!? incomplete
> clixra - dead, probably incomplete
> friendly-lojban - dead, probably incomplete
> l4b - dead, incomplete
> wave lessons - dead, incomplete
> believe dead
> [3]http://lodockikumazvati.org/ - alive! Though, I'm not sure I
> understand it yet
> [4]http://www.teddyb.org/jsk/ - I have no idea. Seems cool.
>
> The wave lessons are extremely valuable. I intend to extract them from
> google wave (since the service is closing at the end of the year).
>
> shamed to admit, but it's awesome.
>
> And no one mentioned the Smart.fm lessons, which are both alive AND
> complete?
>
>
> [7]Lojban gismu - structure
>
> [8]Lojban gismu - per-place sumti
>
> [9]Lojban cmavo, with no compounds
>
> [10]Lojban cmavo, with some compounds
>
> [11]http://smart.fm/goals/search?autodetected=lojban&keyword=&language=jbo
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
I'm reminded to ask you:
Will you work with me on creating a set of smart.fm lessons tailored
to playing {lo do ckiku ma zvati}? This involves creating restricted
vocabulary lists containing only words used at certain fluency
levels, with (I believe) a lesson for each level. have/give/take/want
(le vajrai se tadni) is one level/lesson.
I'd be happy to create the lists (I assume there is an input format
around I could base my work off of) if you'd manage uploading them
for me.
What do you think?
Jonathan Jones
Wow. We really need to get us one of them thingies. 24 languages? Me want! Me want!
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.alyn.post.
> Wow. We really need to get us one of them thingies. 24 languages? Me want!
> Me want!
>
My thought after seeing that was that it would be cool to pair up
with someone on a site like that that you did not share a language
other than Lojban with. You'd have to learn Lojban to develop a
relationship with the person.
.alyn.post.
> My first action to learning Lojban was to order the ".i la.lojban. mo" and
> "CLL" books, print out the "L4B", read all of them cover to cover, and
> then I think I joined jboselkei. his was way back in like, 2003 or so. I
> joined the lojban lists back then too, but I was a total lurker. It wasn't
> until about the middle of last year that I started extroverting actively.
>
Your essay about using and speaking the language got me being more
active too.
Jonathan Jones
The google doc is at tinyurl.com/simplifiedgismu, and is publicly editable, so you're welcome to use that as a starting point if you desire.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
Jonathan Jones
Jonathan Jones
An idea: Since the game involves sign language, you'll probably want to include, as pictures, the ASL of the words. I know Smart.fm supports that, although I don't know what file formats are allowed. I am also relatively certain that it wouldn't be difficult to make Robin's auto-upload script work with pictures too - although you might have to catch him in a magnanimous mood.
Jonathan Jones
Wow, thank you for all the feedback :D
I wrote this rather liberally in the middle of the night. I was
expecting to get ripped a new one because of my crappy writing, crappy
learning abilities, or just any of my crap on display. Looking back at
my post, it seems a bit over dramatic I know. Thank you everyone for
being so friendly to me.
The lojban wave lessons were great for getting back into learning
lojban, but it just lacked the detail I was looking for, especially
concerning "xorlo". What it did cover however was very good and I'm
sorry if I sounded too critical of it.
I want to thank Robin and Lindar for their responses as well and
giving me the facts I seem to have know already, but was too afraid to
accept. Being a introvert (unfortunately) I prefer to learn from
books. I'll continue to learn from the CLL while ignoring "xorlo" for
now. I'll be sure to visit the IRC to continue my learning.
Again, thank you to everyone here for being so friendly and helpful.
My confidence in learning lojban has definitely gone up.
I think Robin said it best (with Lindar at a close second) with, "If
you want stuff done around here, I'm afraid you have to do it
yourself."
I was afraid of that :)
I should've thought of this earlier: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
A. PIEKARSKI
>ta'o
>totus, I'm stuck at 3. I've been using quizlet and have actually gotten the
>first 500 gismu (ordered by popularity) down pretty solidly but I've recently
>hit a wall with words that just don't seem as useful. How many gismu did you
>learn before you said "ok, enough, any more gismu I will just learn on a
>need-to-know basis"?
>
>
First of all, you need to understand that my lojban is lousy and I have no
talent for languages and a very poor memory- I'm not a good role model.
But this is what I do.
1) I study the gismu in Learn model endlessly until I get them all correct
2) I then go to the equivalent Quizlet rafsi and do the same
3) Occasionally I go back to to the the first ones I learned - to confirm that
I have indeed forgotten most of them
4) But brute force works a bit. I do remember many of them
Currently I'm at the end of the final 50 of 's'.
Hope this helps.
totus
Jameson Orndorff
> lojban, but it just lacked the detail I was looking for, especially
> concerning "xorlo". What it did cover however was very good and I'm
> sorry if I sounded too critical of it.
No problems at all. The wave and any final product I put out will
likely not mention any of the history of the language until possibly
the very end. Mentioning the *changes* made with xorlo and dotside
are, to me, utterly irrelevant when learning the language; the sole
exception being the interaction that happens when you meet someone who
doesn't know about said changes. But fundamentally, I'm (quite
possibly egotistically) intending on replacing any beginner to
intermediate level learning material with the final product I will
pull from the Wave.
And yes, unfortunately, sometimes you have to do it yourself.
Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Brian Shannon
> <teapot.ph...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 8 October 2010 19:23, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Also, we're not a dead community.
>>>...
>>>You involved yourself with non-interactive learning media and then
>>>seemed put-off by the lack of community.
>>
>>I'm put off by the lack of activity around incomplete learning
>>materials for newcomers such as myself - not by a lack of community.
>>
>
>
> Ooh, ooh! Can I play "blame the newbie"? Fact is, we were ALL
> newbies once. Every single one of us. Even lojbab, the inventor of
> lojban.
These days, lojbab sometimes feels like he is a newbie again %^)
> And all of us who are in the community today learned with at
> MOST the amount of material you have at your disposal, and in many
> cases, a lot less.
Before 1997, there was no CLL, and the most detailed material to learn
from was the diagrammed summary that is now Chapter 2 of CLL, and the
YACC grammar itself, and for a chunk of the language, the incomplete
draft textbook that I was writing as I went along teaching the first
Lojban class in 1989.
> So obviously, it's out there, it's sufficient for
> the purposes of learning,
Nick Nicolas learned the language basically after a weekend of studying
the minimal materials available in 1990, and then just starting to write
and translate. The only real way to learn a language is to use it, and
to make LOTS of mistakes (which everyone will be glad to correct).
lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
Brian Shannon
Incomplete, outdated, potehto, potahto. :D
Actually, incomplete would be better than outdated for me. Since the
vast majority of the text I'm reading is written pre-xorlo, I'll
probably learn pre-xorlo much better than post-xorlo = sucks.
Incomplete just means I'll have to learn somewhere else.
So, to update my previous list
CLL - outdated, dead (no activity for a year iirc)
L4B - outdated, dead (hard to tell, hasn't been updated anyway)
As for Lindar's new project, I'm not sure how this differs from other
attempts (but I hope it does)...
The best thing any lojbanist could do for people __who learn from
books__ is to work on a __pre-existing__ project - which I intend to
start before the end of the month. That said, I don't expect I'll do
very well since I'm so new but it should be educational.
k...@gmx.net
Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Also... I didn't know there were people that wanted specifically to
> learn from a book. I guess that explains Esperanto (apparently their
> entire community is made up of people that learn that way exclusively
> and they have no grass-roots teaching programmes like we do).
>
I have to latch on this for a minute, because I come from Esperantoland. It's not that the entire community learns it the same way. It's just that it's over 120 years old now and that goes some way towards establishment. I am rather a self-paced book/online learner myself, but I got my toes wet by joining a course in Second Life. Then there's lernu.net and edukado.net. And there are brick-and-mortar courses, in some countries more than in others (in Hungary it's offered in almost every university, in Germany in some). So, there are offers to suit everyone, the lone geek and the take-my-hand type and anyone in between.
Secondly, the comparison of Lojban with Esperanto regarding their history of promotion doesn't work too well, because their environments were/are so different. Esperanto was born from the pains of a man living in a multicultural city full of harsh hostility, not as an academic experiment. Basically, E-o was created in and for Europe, a Babylon of 40+ countries speaking 50+ languages. It survived deadly blows in the upheavals of the 20th century, because it works against nationalism and Zamenhof was a jew (mercifully he passed on before the time that fact became so dangerous). Although it still hasn't reached mainstream after all, it's actually permanently on the brink of doing so. I have a brochure from 1926 promoting its use for commercial purposes. Today there is even a political party working towards getting it officially accepted by the EU at last. Long way still to reaching that goal, but digging and worming.
Lojban, created in modern USA, doesn't really fill such a dire need. That doesn't make it less valuable, but one must admit that it's very much a thing for academics and headgame enthusiasts. Or can you sell it to a blue-collar worker as a cure for his woes with getting English spelling right? Proving the original mission statement of Lojban, resp. Loglan, suggests educating some children completely immersed in it, and then studying how they interact. Let's say, time is simply not there yet...
Amike / mi'e la feliks.
Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG
> So, to update my previous list
> CLL - outdated, dead (no activity for a year iirc)
> L4B - outdated, dead (hard to tell, hasn't been updated anyway)
CLL is planned to be fully revised when the BYFY work is completed
(actually, revising it is the last part of completing the BYFY work,
which includes modifying the baseline documents including CLL to reflect
any changes to the language definition). There is an in-progress effort
to incorporate typo corrections, which will be verified by a diff
listing check, and then approved by the BYFY
There have been no plans to revise L4B, which is not a baseline
document. But so far as I know, there isn't likely to be much that
needs revision unless someone has been collecting typos.
Brian Shannon
> But so far as I know, there isn't likely to be much that needs revision
> unless someone has been collecting typos.
I don't believe L4B reflects changes such as xorlo and dotside. L4B is
probably what I'll work on updating since it seems to need the least
work (always a good justification for doing anything! :D).