FA KU

[guskant]

coi ro do

{fiku la lojban tavla} should mean "talk in Lojban", but jbofi'e says "Lojban is talker". Is it a bug, or am I wrong?

mu'o

[Lee Carlson]

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

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The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper.

[guskant]

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:29 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

 

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:49 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com> wrote:

coi ro do

{fiku la lojban tavla} should mean "talk in Lojban", but jbofi'e says "Lojban is talker". Is it a bug, or am I wrong?

I don't think fiku means /anything/. It seems like that construct is a magic phrase, allowing you to correct the mistake of saying FA when you didn't mean to. Regardless, why don't you just use fo or ve?

 

mu'o

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[la gleki]

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

so does

{fo la.lojban. tavla}

and

{la.lojban. ve tavla}
 

 

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:49 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com> wrote:

coi ro do

{fiku la lojban tavla} should mean "talk in Lojban", but jbofi'e says "Lojban is talker". Is it a bug, or am I wrong?

mu'o

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[la gleki]

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 10:49:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

so does

{fo la.lojban. tavla}

and

{la.lojban. ve tavla}

I guess guskant is searching for stylistic diversity which is indeed present here.

Like

in {fizo'e la lojban tavla} {la lojban} is tavla4.

But in {fizo'e tavla la lojban} {la lojban} is now tavla2 !!!

BTW, here is the old thread https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ZBpL4xoUwgQ/discussion

[guskant]

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 16:10:25 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit :

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 10:49:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

so does

{fo la.lojban. tavla}

and

{la.lojban. ve tavla}

I guess guskant is searching for stylistic diversity which is indeed present here.

Like

in {fizo'e la lojban tavla} {la lojban} is tavla4.

But in {fizo'e tavla la lojban} {la lojban} is now tavla2 !!!

BTW, here is the old thread https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ZBpL4xoUwgQ/discussion

ki'e gleki for the info. My problem is however a bit different from yours.

From your problem, I see jbofi'e forgets the places assigned by FA when a selbri appears, and after the selbri, the default place structure is applied. I would like to say it bothers mi'a who are not familiar with European languages and should be a bug, but my actual point is something other.

According to jbofi'e, {fi ku la lojban tavla} means "Lojban is talker."
Even if {fi ku} doesn't mean /anything/, it is not a valid reason for ignoring the usual rule "that after a FA-tagged sumti, any sumti following it occupy the places numerically succeeding it, subject to the proviso that an already-filled place is skipped" described in CLL9.3.
Even {fi zi'o la lojban tavla} is parsed as "talk in Lojban" that I expected. Why not {fi ku}?

[Jonathan Jones]

I would say, because {fi ku} is /not/ a FA-tagged sumti. Which it isn't. It isn't a sumti at all.

[guskant]

OK, from yacc point of view, I agree with you. From a semantic point of view, however, FA KU should be an implicit expression of some possible sumti. In fact, for other sumtcita like BAI or tense, the usage of sumtcita means a vague expression (CLL9.9). Both modal-tense and FA are mod_head_490 of yacc. They should have the same semantic rule.

[la gleki]

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:21:48 PM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 16:10:25 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit :

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 10:49:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

so does

{fo la.lojban. tavla}

and

{la.lojban. ve tavla}

I guess guskant is searching for stylistic diversity which is indeed present here.

Like

in {fizo'e la lojban tavla} {la lojban} is tavla4.

But in {fizo'e tavla la lojban} {la lojban} is now tavla2 !!!

BTW, here is the old thread https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ZBpL4xoUwgQ/discussion

ki'e gleki for the info. My problem is however a bit different from yours.

From your problem, I see jbofi'e forgets the places assigned by FA when a selbri appears, and after the selbri, the default place structure is applied. I would like to say it bothers mi'a who are not familiar with European languages

wait how is it connected with european languages??? And how are other languages compared to european ones supposed to work?

[guskant]

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 20:02:14 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit :

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 2:21:48 PM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 16:10:25 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit :

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 10:49:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 7, 2013 1:29:55 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:

Le dimanche 7 avril 2013 06:12:29 UTC+9, LordDraqo a écrit :

Did you try "fi la lojban ku tavla"?

I don't need to try it, but {fi la lojban ku tavla} means "talk about Lojban". I meant {fiku} with no sumti should be x3, and a terbri next to it should be x4, but jbofi'e doesn't parse it as I expected.

I was wondering about that in past as well. I can't find that thread now but the funny thing is that 

{fizo'e la lojban tavla} does what you need.

so does

{fo la.lojban. tavla}

and

{la.lojban. ve tavla}

I guess guskant is searching for stylistic diversity which is indeed present here.

Like

in {fizo'e la lojban tavla} {la lojban} is tavla4.

But in {fizo'e tavla la lojban} {la lojban} is now tavla2 !!!

BTW, here is the old thread https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ZBpL4xoUwgQ/discussion

ki'e gleki for the info. My problem is however a bit different from yours.

From your problem, I see jbofi'e forgets the places assigned by FA when a selbri appears, and after the selbri, the default place structure is applied. I would like to say it bothers mi'a who are not familiar with European languages

wait how is it connected with european languages??? And how are other languages compared to european ones supposed to work?

Not specific to European languages, but some languages in which the order of terms and verbs defines the meaning of a sentence. mi'a happily speak FA-tagged sumti with free order before selbri, and when the selbri lets the parser forget the FA-assignment and forces the next term to be x2 ignoring CLL9.3, mi'a might be discouraged.

[Michael Turniansky]

I have to agree with aionys here.  As you correctly point, the CLL says "that an already-filled place is skipped".  "fi ku" is not "filled", however.  It is empty.  It's merely mentioned that a slot exists, but it does not fill it.  Hence "FA KU" are  basically semantically meaningless structures, unlike FA zo'e 

  There are, however, of course, lotsa bugs with jboski (why, oh why, did genrei have to go?), such as not liking LI structures at the end of an utterance that are not terminate with lo'o (i.e. "mi mitre li re" will bomb)

                  --gejyspa

--

[selpa'i]

I'm entirely with guskant on this one.

On 07.04.2013 13:00, guskant wrote:
> OK, from yacc point of view, I agree with you. From a semantic point
> of view, however, FA KU should be an implicit expression of some
> possible sumti. In fact, for other sumtcita like BAI or tense, the
> usage of sumtcita means a vague expression (CLL9.9). Both modal-tense
> and FA are mod_head_490 of yacc. They should have the same semantic
> rule.

I agree. More than a year ago I suggested that {fi ku la .lojban. cu
tavla} be the same as {fo la .lojban. cu tavla}.
Why? Because FA are sumtcita/TAG, and the rule for TAG is this:

TAG broda == TAG ku broda == TAG zo'e broda

(semantically, not grammatically)

Mentioning a FA but not filling it is much like filling it with zo'e
explicitly, why else would you say {fi ku} in the first place?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i