lo ve tivni

[junpen]

coi

I'm not good at English, and I'd like to ask the meaning of "television receiver" that is the translation of "lo ve tivni". Can this mean "television watcher"?

.i xu zoi zoi television receiver zoi ka'e se smuni lo du'u prenu gi'e catlu lo se tivni kei .e nai lo du'u cabra fi lo catlu be lo se tivni

mi'e la .junpen. mu'o

[Jonathan Jones]

No. It's the television.

lo tivni - television broadcaster (i.e., the radio tower sending out the signal- also the station (Such as KQRV, which here broadcasts FOX programming)
lo se tivni - television programming (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.- also individual shows, ads, etc.)
lo te tivni - television channel (FOX is on channel 12 here)
lo te tivni - television receiver (i.e., the thing which receives the broadcast and decodes it into audio and visual information. Typically a TV, but there are other things that can also do this)

{la'oi.KQRV. tivni la'oi.FOX. li pare lo vidni to poi vica'u me mi toi}
"KQRV broadcasts FOX on channel 12 to the monitor (which is close in front of me)."

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[MorphemeAddict]

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

No. It's the television.

The television set. 

BTW: Anybody remember rabbit ears? 

stevo 

[Junpe OKAU]

je'e ki'e .ui sai

So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?

mi'e la .junpen. mu'o

2013/03/06 12:03 "Jonathan Jones" <eye...@gmail.com>:

[Jonathan Jones]

On Mar 5, 2013 9:03 PM, "Junpe OKAU" <nerg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> je'e ki'e .ui sai
>
> So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?

No, because YouTube isn't a television broadcast. That's video delivered via internet, not via radio waves.

[v4hn]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 09:57:35PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2013 9:03 PM, "Junpe OKAU" <nerg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > je'e ki'e .ui sai
> >
> > So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban
> Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?
>
> No, because YouTube isn't a television broadcast. That's video delivered
> via internet, not via radio waves.
>

I suppose there is a "in medium" place in {tevni} for a reason.
Though YouTube violates some assumtions about broadcasting, like
sending a fixed program, I would still count it as {tevni} with
{lo kibro} in the {fi} place.


mi'e la .van. mu'o

[Jonathan Jones]

On Mar 6, 2013 1:22 AM, "v4hn" <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 09:57:35PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 2013 9:03 PM, "Junpe OKAU" <nerg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > je'e ki'e .ui sai
> > >
> > > So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban
> > Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?
> >
> > No, because YouTube isn't a television broadcast. That's video delivered
> > via internet, not via radio waves.
> >
>
> I suppose there is a "in medium" place in {tevni} for a reason.
> Though YouTube violates some assumtions about broadcasting, like
> sending a fixed program,

And, you know, broadcasting, which is the transmission of audio and/or video by modulating the frequency and/or amplitude of an electromagnetic wave being sent from a radio transmitter.

la.iutub. benji lo skina lo mi skami fu lo kibro

(Related to this, I think skina should refer to any length of video, which means the English gloss "film" is misleading.)

[v4hn]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 01:54:32AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Mar 6, 2013 1:22 AM, "v4hn" <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 09:57:35PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > > On Mar 5, 2013 9:03 PM, "Junpe OKAU" <nerg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > je'e ki'e .ui sai
> > > >
> > > > So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban
> > > Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?
> > >
> > > No, because YouTube isn't a television broadcast. That's video delivered
> > > via internet, not via radio waves.
> > >
> >
> > I suppose there is a "in medium" place in {tevni} for a reason.
> > Though YouTube violates some assumtions about broadcasting, like
> > sending a fixed program,
>
> And, you know, broadcasting, which is the transmission of audio and/or
> video by modulating the frequency and/or amplitude of an electromagnetic
> wave being sent from a radio transmitter.
>

... which is only the third definition of "broadcast (verb trans.)"
on Merriam Webster, where the first two are

1: to scatter or sow (as seed) over a broad area
2: to make widely known

This is compatible with video streaming sites in my opinion.

> la.iutub. benji lo skina lo mi skami fu lo kibro
>

Sure, {tivni} always implies some {benji}.


v4hn

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:39 AM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 01:54:32AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Mar 6, 2013 1:22 AM, "v4hn" <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 09:57:35PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > > On Mar 5, 2013 9:03 PM, "Junpe OKAU" <nerg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > je'e ki'e .ui sai
> > > >
> > > > So, can you say {la'o zoi YouTube zoi cu tivni la'o zoi Lojban
> > > Promotional Video zoi la'o zoi LogicalLanguageGroup zoi lo skami}?
> > >
> > > No, because YouTube isn't a television broadcast. That's video delivered
> > > via internet, not via radio waves.
> > >
> >
> > I suppose there is a "in medium" place in {tevni} for a reason.
> > Though YouTube violates some assumtions about broadcasting, like
> > sending a fixed program,
>
> And, you know, broadcasting, which is the transmission of audio and/or
> video by modulating the frequency and/or amplitude of an electromagnetic
> wave being sent from a radio transmitter.
>

... which is only the third definition of "broadcast (verb trans.)"

It's the first definition on Collins English Dictionary, Vocabulary.com, MacMillan Dictionary,  Wiktionary, Dictionary.com, and pretty much any other dictionary you'd care to look up, and it's the SECOND in Merriam-Webster, not the third.
 

on Merriam Webster, where the first two are

1: to scatter or sow (as seed) over a broad area
2: to make widely known

Which doesn't matter, since Lojban words can only have one meaning, and it is obvious that the sense of broadcast which is tivni is radio transmission one.
 

This is compatible with video streaming sites in my opinion.

> la.iutub. benji lo skina lo mi skami fu lo kibro
>

Sure, {tivni} always implies some {benji}.


v4hn

[v4hn]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 12:43:14PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:39 AM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 01:54:32AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > > And, you know, broadcasting, which is the transmission of audio and/or
> > > video by modulating the frequency and/or amplitude of an electromagnetic
> > > wave being sent from a radio transmitter.
> > >
> >
> > ... which is only the third definition of "broadcast (verb trans.)"
> >
>
> It's the first definition on Collins English

> Dictionary<http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/broadcast>
> , Vocabulary.com <http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/broadcast>, MacMillan
> Dictionary<http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/broadcast>,
> Wiktionary <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/broadcast>,
> Dictionary.com<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/broadcast>,

> and pretty much any other dictionary you'd care to look up, and it's the

> SECOND in Merriam-Webster<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/broadcast>,
> not the third. [the adjective, not the verb]
>

Ok, first off, there seems to be a tendency to interpret the noun and adjective
more often as relating to television than the verb/adverb and order differs throughout
your links. More importantly, _EVERY_ page you lists also points out that there is another
usage of the word meaning "make publicly known/spread out".
Do we have a different word for this concept (which in my opinion is more general
and completely includes television/radio)? And no, {benji} does not solve this, because
you can broadcast something by making it available to others without transmitting it yourself.
If not, it doesn't make sense to restrict {tivni} ba'e that much and I would even vote
for adjusting the definition from "to television receiver" to "receiver".


v4hn

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 1:24 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 12:43:14PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:39 AM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 01:54:32AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> > > And, you know, broadcasting, which is the transmission of audio and/or
> > > video by modulating the frequency and/or amplitude of an electromagnetic
> > > wave being sent from a radio transmitter.
> > >
> >
> > ... which is only the third definition of "broadcast (verb trans.)"
> >
>
> It's the first definition on Collins English

> Dictionary<http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/broadcast>
> , Vocabulary.com <http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/broadcast>, MacMillan
> Dictionary<http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/broadcast>,
> Wiktionary <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/broadcast>,
> Dictionary.com<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/broadcast>,

> and pretty much any other dictionary you'd care to look up, and it's the

> SECOND in Merriam-Webster<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/broadcast>,
> not the third. [the adjective, not the verb]
>

Ok, first off, there seems to be a tendency to interpret the noun and adjective
more often as relating to television than the verb/adverb and order differs throughout
your links. More importantly, _EVERY_ page you lists also points out that there is another
usage of the word meaning "make publicly known/spread out".
Do we have a different word for this concept (which in my opinion is more general
and completely includes television/radio)?

I don't know. Possibly jungau, or similar. What I do know is, we have three words for communication using electromagnetic transmission:

benji (general transmission, which would include phone lines, Wi-Fi, Cellular networks, the internet, etc. (because of its x5))
cradi (radio transmission, i.e. audio only transmission via electromagnetic modulation)
tivni (television transmission, i.e. video and audio transmission via electromagnetic modulation)
 

And no, {benji} does not solve this, because you can broadcast something by making it available to others without transmitting it yourself.

If you mean you can give something to someone else to transmit for you, such as advertisers do, that's bejygau. If you mean any of the other definitions of broadcast, that's a /different word entirely/.
 

If not, it doesn't make sense to restrict {tivni} ba'e that much and I would even vote
for adjusting the definition from "to television receiver" to "receiver".

What you don't seem to understand is that tivni /can't/ mean anything /except/ that, because Lojban words have /one/ meaning, or to put it another way, they can only equate to /one/ sense of an English word.

The English word "broadcast" has many different meanings, or senses, three of which are prevalent. Each of these must be translated by /different/ words in Lojban.

A "receiver" is a {lo te benji}. A television receiver is a {lo te tivni}. A {lo te tivni} is a {lo te benji}, but the reverse is not necessarily true.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

What you don't seem to understand is that tivni /can't/ mean anything /except/ that, because Lojban words have /one/ meaning, or to put it another way, they can only equate to /one/ sense of an English word.

    But the question is what that "one thing" is.  Just like a tirxu can be a leopard or tiger or jaguar "tivni" doesn't necessarily imply transmission by radio waves.  What it does seem to imply is a broadcasting of a (presumably visual) piece of information through some type of transmission type to some sort of way of receiving that information.  There is no mention of radio frequency, signal modultion (Which does not exist in digital tv, etc).  That stuff is left to the x5 piece.  Cable television, for example, would fit that bill, where there is no radio frequency transmissions from the time it leaves the cable company.  Logie Baird's electromechanical televisions would also fit that bill,  and I see no reason why youtube transmissions would not, either. 

  (But I do agree with you that it would not be the general spread of information, which would be under benji.  Benji is a superset of tivni and cradi)

           --gejyspa

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

What you don't seem to understand is that tivni /can't/ mean anything /except/ that, because Lojban words have /one/ meaning, or to put it another way, they can only equate to /one/ sense of an English word.

    But the question is what that "one thing" is.  Just like a tirxu can be a leopard or tiger or jaguar "tivni" doesn't necessarily imply transmission by radio waves.  What it does seem to imply is a broadcasting of a (presumably visual) piece of information through some type of transmission type to some sort of way of receiving that information.  There is no mention of radio frequency, signal modultion (Which does not exist in digital tv, etc).  That stuff is left to the x5 piece.  Cable television, for example, would fit that bill, where there is no radio frequency transmissions from the time it leaves the cable company.  Logie Baird's electromechanical televisions would also fit that bill,  and I see no reason why youtube transmissions would not, either. 

Except that tivni doesn't have an x5 place. If it did, I would agree with you completely. As it is, though, it seems obvious to me that the crafters of tivni (and cradi, which has the same structure), did mean specifically OTA communication. I suppose this means that the current meaning is outdated and should be updated to allow for other means of transmission.
 

  (But I do agree with you that it would not be the general spread of information, which would be under benji.  Benji is a superset of tivni and cradi)

           --gejyspa

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