Jargon and Abbreviations
Alex Rozenshteyn
1) How does lojban deal with jargon? Mathematical jargon has been considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation" means something completely different and only marginally related to what it means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact that we're talking about people and not copper?
2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to shorten long, frequently used phrases? It's inherently ambiguous in the way that lojban doesn't like, right?
--
Jorge Llambías
>
> 1) How does lojban deal with jargon? Mathematical jargon has been
> considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation"
> means something completely different and only marginally related to what it
> means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact that
> we're talking about people and not copper?
The place structure for "dislocation" will probably be something like
"x1 is a dislocation of x2 in x3", so if x2 is a bone you know what
kind of dislocation you are talking about.
> 2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to
> shorten long, frequently used phrases? It's inherently ambiguous in the way
> that lojban doesn't like, right?
Lujvo and fu'ivla are open classes of words, so there's always room
for new words when needed.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Pierre Abbat
> I was just wondering a lot, and two thoughts came to mind that I wanted to
> ask the community.
>
> 1) How does lojban deal with jargon? Mathematical jargon has been
> considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation"
> means something completely different and only marginally related to what it
> means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact that
> we're talking about people and not copper?
In both fields, as far as I know, it means "the event of something being out
of its usual place", which could be translated as "nu nalcicyzva" or
something similar. Another example is "mlisnosli", which means "oscillates
slightly slowly". Applied to human vocal cords, it means "tenor"; applied to
radios, it can designate a frequency band.
On the other hand, "field" and "body" and "ring" in mathematical jargon have
nothing to do with their usual meaning. (A field is a commutative body. The
term "body" is mainly used in non-English.) Such terms should be translated
as new coinages.
> 2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to
> shorten long, frequently used phrases? It's inherently ambiguous in the
> way that lojban doesn't like, right?
You can shorten a phrase by making a fu'ivla of it, or by making a tanru.
Tanru are semantically ambiguous, so using the same tanru with different
meanings is allowed.
Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.
Pierre Abbat
> considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation"
> means something completely different and only marginally related to what it
> means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact that
> we're talking about people and not copper?
Okay, I looked it up. I thought you were talking about a geological phenomenon
in which a piece of copper is found in an unexpected place. It's something
else which I read a long time ago in Scientific American. I think the right
word is "krilyli'icfi".
Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
Zifre
> I was just wondering a lot, and two thoughts came to mind that I wanted to
> ask the community.
>
> 1) How does lojban deal with jargon? Mathematical jargon has been
> considered, but what about others? In materials science, a "dislocation"
> means something completely different and only marginally related to what it
> means in medicine. Do we just use the same word and rely on the fact that
> we're talking about people and not copper?
that tells the listener what general field you are dealing with. For
example, Esperanto could be bangrnesperanto.
In the examples you gave, dislocation might be saskrndislokeicyna and
mikcrndislokeicyna. (To those who know more about this than me, how do
you decide on the final vowel?)
> 2) Is there a lojbanic solution to the fact that people really like to
> shorten long, frequently used phrases? It's inherently ambiguous in the way
> that lojban doesn't like, right?
Lojban is "logical" does not mean it doesn't work like any other human
language. To me, the important thing is that the grammar is
unambiguous. I think it is a good thing to be semantically ambiguous
in a lot of cases. From what I can tell, spoken Lojban is not really
any longer than English or any other language, especially when it is
not translated from another language. To give you an idea of how
simple Lojban phrases can be, here are some examples:
do mo - What are you doing? What's up? Who are you?
coi ma - Hello. What's your name?
ui na fasnu - I'm happy that it didn't happen.
mu'i ma do co'e - Why did you do it?
uu do cortu - This one is kind of hard to translate, possibly: I'm
sorry about your injury/pain.
As you can you, these are very short and ambiguous, yet follow the
rules of Lojban.
mu'o mi'e zif
Pierre Abbat
> In the examples you gave, dislocation might be saskrndislokeicyna and
> mikcrndislokeicyna. (To those who know more about this than me, how do
> you decide on the final vowel?)
"y" in a brivla is always a morpheme boundary, and "na" is too short to be or
contain a rafsi, so those words are invalid.
The final vowel is somewhat arbitrary. It can be set to the final vowel of the
gismu, a repetition of a vowel in the foreign part, or a vowel that sounds
good.
Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
Zifre
> "y" in a brivla is always a morpheme boundary, and "na" is too short to be or
> contain a rafsi, so those words are invalid.
>
> The final vowel is somewhat arbitrary. It can be set to the final vowel of the
> gismu, a repetition of a vowel in the foreign part, or a vowel that sounds
> good.
I forgot about the rule about "y".
Alex Rozenshteyn
I guess I'm wondering how lojban is expected to deal with the world changing out from under it slightly.
As for abbreviations, I meant things like Americans shortening "television" to "TV" or Francophones shortening "sympatique" to "sympa", and I was also thinking about acronyms a bit, e.g. MADD (mothers against drunk driving).
I'd assume that lojban would forbid both types.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
--
Lindar
> to "TV" or Francophones shortening "sympatique" to "sympa", and I was also
> thinking about acronyms a bit, e.g. MADD (mothers against drunk driving).
>
> I'd assume that lojban would forbid both types.
byfy. Also, fu'ivla don't necessarily have to be borrowed from a
language. zi'evla are fu'ivla from our own language (lojban), or
completely new words as the case may be. They aren't used a lot, but
there exist fu'ivla/zi'evla of longer lujvo. For example, one might
shorten {sorprekarce} (bus) to {sorpece} or some such thing.
Alex Rozenshteyn
Are there rules/guidelines for making legal (i.e. non-clashing) zi'evla?
What stops {sorpece} from being read as {sorpe ce}? Stress? {sorPEce} vs {SORpe ce}?
If I use the phrase {bacru fatci} (which I just kinda picked arbitrarily from a gismu list, I think meaning something like "spoken truth") frequently in some context, can I also abbreviate it {byfy}?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
--
Pierre Abbat
I was thinking {sorpeka}, but same principle. {vonpaso}, which I mentioned
earlier, is another: it's from {vo pa so}, referring to Nigerian law 419, and
means the people who send mails that someone has died and has no heirs and
the bank wants to transfer some huge some of money abroad.
Note that acronyms like {byfy} function like pronouns, not like whatever
phrase they are abbreviations of. So I would say {mi cmima le baupla
fuzykamni}, but {mi cmima byfy}, not {mi cmima le byfy}. If you want to make
an acronym function like a proper noun, you precede it with {la me}, as in
{la me cy.ibumymy.ybuty}. But that one I'd more likely say as {la simit}.
(It's a Spanish acronym for Centro Internacional para el Mejoramiento de Maíz
y Trigo = xagmaugau be lo zumri .e lo maxri be'o zukstu.}
Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.
Jorge Llambías
> {.i .uicai .ua ki'e}
>
> Are there rules/guidelines for making legal (i.e. non-clashing) zi'evla?
Yes, but they are somewhat complicated. You can find a list of forms here:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Exhaustive+list+of+short+fu'ivla+forms
> What stops {sorpece} from being read as {sorpe ce}? Stress? {sorPEce} vs
> {SORpe ce}?
Correct.
> If I use the phrase {bacru fatci} (which I just kinda picked arbitrarily
> from a gismu list, I think meaning something like "spoken truth") frequently
> in some context, can I also abbreviate it {byfy}?
"by fy" is a sumti, but you can convert it to a selbri with "me": "me by fy".
mu'o mi'e xorxes