dopewars do we need such a game in debian distribution?
Christof Adams
Hallo Francois,
I am a long time user of debian. In the updating process i found the
programm "dopewars" you maintain. As a user i much apreciate the work of
volunteers like you in the packing and handling of the debian software
packages.
But do we really need a game like this in the debian distribution, given the
casualties and problems which drugs, there use and the dealing cause.
Please think over it and remove this package and others with comparable
content. You might find other packages which deserve your time better.
Thanks for reading my notice
Christof Adams
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Nico Golde
* Christof Adams <Christo...@online.de> [2008-02-27 15:22]:
> I am a long time user of debian. In the updating process i found the
> programm "dopewars" you maintain. As a user i much apreciate the work of
> volunteers like you in the packing and handling of the debian software
> packages.
>
> But do we really need a game like this in the debian distribution, given the
> casualties and problems which drugs, there use and the dealing cause.
>
> Please think over it and remove this package and others with comparable
> content. You might find other packages which deserve your time better.
Debian is called the universal OS, not the drug free OS.
Cheers
Nico
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For security reasons, all text in this mail is double-rot13 encrypted.
Stephen Gran
>
> Hallo Francois,
>
> I am a long time user of debian. In the updating process i found the
> programm "dopewars" you maintain. As a user i much apreciate the work of
> volunteers like you in the packing and handling of the debian software
> packages.
>
> But do we really need a game like this in the debian distribution, given the
> casualties and problems which drugs, there use and the dealing cause.
>
> Please think over it and remove this package and others with comparable
> content. You might find other packages which deserve your time better.
I think it is useful to remember that many people have different
thresholds for what they find offensive or funny. So far, it has been
Debian's policy to allow software into the distribution provided there is
someone to maintain it (caveats about varying levels of maintainership
aside). We are too broad a project to have a single set of values,
and I think it wouldn't be all that useful to try to impose one.
Just my thoughts, and thanks for your interest.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,''`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sg...@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
| `- http://www.debian.org |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dossy Shiobara
> I think it is useful to remember that many people have different
> thresholds for what they find offensive or funny.
Similar to non-free, perhaps Debian needs to have its packages moved to
drug-free, leaving packages like dopewars behind?
:-). :-). :-)
(Apply extra smileys liberally as needed.)
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Nico Golde
* Stephen Gran <sg...@debian.org> [2008-02-27 16:40]:
> This one time, at band camp, Christof Adams said:
> > I am a long time user of debian. In the updating process i found the
> > programm "dopewars" you maintain. As a user i much apreciate the work of
> > volunteers like you in the packing and handling of the debian software
> > packages.
> >
> > But do we really need a game like this in the debian distribution, given the
> > casualties and problems which drugs, there use and the dealing cause.
> >
> > Please think over it and remove this package and others with comparable
> > content. You might find other packages which deserve your time better.
>
> I think it is useful to remember that many people have different
> thresholds for what they find offensive or funny. So far, it has been
> Debian's policy to allow software into the distribution provided there is
> someone to maintain it (caveats about varying levels of maintainership
> aside). We are too broad a project to have a single set of values,
> and I think it wouldn't be all that useful to try to impose one.
At least w3bfukk0r was not allowed
to get into the archive because of its offensive name and
hot-babe also never made its way into the archive.
Kind regards
Kevin Mark
> On 2008.02.27, Stephen Gran <sg...@debian.org> wrote:
> > I think it is useful to remember that many people have different
> > thresholds for what they find offensive or funny.
>
> Similar to non-free, perhaps Debian needs to have its packages moved to
> drug-free, leaving packages like dopewars behind?
>
> :-). :-). :-)
>
> (Apply extra smileys liberally as needed.)
>
with the image of mohammad. Muslims wanted this to be removed. Wikipedia
stood up for free speech and did not remove this image. The idea is that
free speech should be allowed and the choice should be left up to the
individual. So if you don't want to install/use a piece of software,
don't install/use it. Debian has various packages that contain
potentially offensive matter like the fortune packages. Debian also has
a subproject for children, so maybe you can use that installer to ensure
a 'cleaner' selections of software. Or, in true hacker spirit, you can
choose to create a Debian subproject to suit your choices and give it an
appropiate name.
hope that explains,
K
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Christian Surchi
> Hallo Francois,
>
> I am a long time user of debian. In the updating process i found the
> programm "dopewars" you maintain. As a user i much apreciate the work of
> volunteers like you in the packing and handling of the debian software
> packages.
>
> But do we really need a game like this in the debian distribution, given the
> casualties and problems which drugs, there use and the dealing cause.
Oh, yes, of course, and I think we shouldn't also allow to be the
criminal Mr. X in our "londonlaw" package! ;-P
"...one player controls the movements of the criminal
Mr. X as he tries to evade Scotland Yard..."
bye
Christian
Stephen Gran
> At least w3bfukk0r was not allowed
> to get into the archive because of its offensive name and
> hot-babe also never made its way into the archive.
You mean they were actually rejected by the ftp-master's, or you mean
the discussion convinced the maintainers not to upload? I honestly
don't know for the first, and my impression for the second was that all
the shouting convinced the prospective maintainer not to bother. I
don't see giving up and being told no as the same things.
Julien Cristau
> This one time, at band camp, Nico Golde said:
> > At least w3bfukk0r was not allowed
> > to get into the archive because of its offensive name and
> > hot-babe also never made its way into the archive.
>
> You mean they were actually rejected by the ftp-master's, or you mean
> the discussion convinced the maintainers not to upload? I honestly
> don't know for the first, and my impression for the second was that all
> the shouting convinced the prospective maintainer not to bother. I
> don't see giving up and being told no as the same things.
jcristau@merkel:/org/ftp.debian.org$ grep hot-babe log/*
log/2004-11:20041130164722|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.0-1_powerpc.changes
log/2004-12:20041204200222|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.1-1_powerpc.changes
log/2005-01:20050127093213|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.2-1_powerpc.changes
log/2005-05:20050528100002|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.2-1_powerpc.changes
log/2005-05:20050528100014|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.1-1_powerpc.changes
log/2005-05:20050528100016|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.0-1_powerpc.changes
I can't find the reason, so you'd have to ask Jörg about that.
There's also been an upload of w3bfukk0r to NEW in September 2006.
Cheers,
Julien
Josselin Mouette
> Please think over it and remove this package and others with comparable
> content. You might find other packages which deserve your time better.
I agree. We should for example remove bible-kjv, which contains shocking
texts recommending to lapidate people. Given the casualties still caused
by lapidation and the seriousness of this human rights violation, we
should remove this package from the archive.
--
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: :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
`- our own. Resistance is futile.
Nico Golde
* Julien Cristau <jcri...@debian.org> [2008-02-27 19:30]:
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 18:13:12 +0000, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > This one time, at band camp, Nico Golde said:
> > > At least w3bfukk0r was not allowed
> > > to get into the archive because of its offensive name and
> > > hot-babe also never made its way into the archive.
> >
> > You mean they were actually rejected by the ftp-master's, or you mean
> > the discussion convinced the maintainers not to upload? I honestly
> > don't know for the first, and my impression for the second was that all
> > the shouting convinced the prospective maintainer not to bother. I
> > don't see giving up and being told no as the same things.
>
> jcristau@merkel:/org/ftp.debian.org$ grep hot-babe log/*
> log/2004-11:20041130164722|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.0-1_powerpc.changes
> log/2004-12:20041204200222|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.1-1_powerpc.changes
> log/2005-01:20050127093213|jennifer|Moving to new|hot-babe_0.2.2-1_powerpc.changes
> log/2005-05:20050528100002|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.2-1_powerpc.changes
> log/2005-05:20050528100014|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.1-1_powerpc.changes
> log/2005-05:20050528100016|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.0-1_powerpc.changes
>
> I can't find the reason, so you'd have to ask Jörg about that.
>
> There's also been an upload of w3bfukk0r to NEW in September 2006.
The thread about it is on:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/11/msg00566.html
Cheers
Francois Marier
You have a good point: dopewars, despite being fun to a lot of people, is not
exactly a family-friendly game. I suggest you look at this Debian sub-project
if you are looking for a child-safe distribution:
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-jr/
Francois
Frans Pop
> You have a good point: dopewars, despite being fun to a lot of people, is
> not exactly a family-friendly game. I suggest you look at this Debian
> sub-project if you are looking for a child-safe distribution:
>
> http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-jr/
/me always semi-enjoys the fact that suggestions like the one that started
the thread always end up making people aware of a game they did not before
knew existed.
Would be interesting to compare the popcon scores for the game for this
month and next month. All we need at this point is for some people to start
blogging about the discussion.
:-P
Charles Plessy
> Debian has various packages that contain
> potentially offensive matter like the fortune packages. Debian also has
> a subproject for children
Actually, custom debian distributions ("subprojects") have exactly the
same content as Debian, but display it differently, so it does not solve
Chistof's answer. There is a game rating project, but dopewars does not
seem to be documented there. Maybe you (Christof) can ask propose to
Miriam Ruiz to add it? http://www.miriamruiz.es/tags/
Have a nice day,
--
Charles Plessy
Debian-Med packaging team
Wakō, Saitama, Japan
Andreas Tille
> /me always semi-enjoys the fact that suggestions like the one that started
> the thread always end up making people aware of a game they did not before
> knew existed.
>
> Would be interesting to compare the popcon scores for the game for this
> month and next month. All we need at this point is for some people to start
> blogging about the discussion.
:)
/me agrees with the original poster that DDs _could_ have spent their time
otherwise better than maintaining questionable games, but because they are
free to spend their time in whatever they want I would hate if people
(including myself when just writing this mail) now spent even more time
in discussing issues how people should better spend their time.
So could we just stop here?
At least you are right that the game could not have had a better
advertising than this. I'm happy that I feel quite resistant against
any advertising. :)
Kind regards
Andreas.
Cyril Brulebois
> /me agrees with the original poster that DDs _could_ have spent
> their time otherwise better than maintaining questionable games, but
> because they are free to spend their time in whatever they want I
> would hate if people (including myself when just writing this mail)
> now spent even more time in discussing issues how people should
> better spend their time. So could we just stop here?
<ad>
And join pkg-games to help maintain (other) games.
</ad>
Cheers,
--
Cyril Brulebois
Kevin Mark
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 11:59:00AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 11:00:27AM -0500, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> > > On 2008.02.27, Stephen Gran <sg...@debian.org> wrote:
> > > > I think it is useful to remember that many people have different
> > > > thresholds for what they find offensive or funny.
> > >
> > > Similar to non-free, perhaps Debian needs to have its packages moved to
> > > drug-free, leaving packages like dopewars behind?
> > >
> > > :-). :-). :-)
> > >
> > > (Apply extra smileys liberally as needed.)
> > >
> > There was a recent incident with Wikipedia about it containing a page
> > with the image of mohammad. Muslims wanted this to be removed. Wikipedia
> > stood up for free speech and did not remove this image. The idea is that
> > free speech should be allowed and the choice should be left up to the
>
> speaking of free speech, while at the same time supporting censorship at
> the list level.
I am not a DD. I do not speak for Debian or its personel. Although I
would assume that they consider free speech important, considering
that in the US (and other places) 'code=speech'.
>
> Note: As i am being censored, please consider forwarding this email to
> the list.
>
> Sadly,
>
> Sven Luther
>
You are not limited in your freedom to speak. It is others that may or
may not choose to listen or take action to recieve or block what you
say. It has been your actions that lead to this and it will be your
future actions that change the situation. I hope you are able to change
your actions to be able to continue your desired Debian work.
Cheers,
Kev
chad
as the unintential starter of this thread some remarks
- didn't want to start another flame war or even worser to advertise
the mentioned game. I used simply the possibilty to ask the debian
mantainer and got traped by an automagicaly added cc to this list.
- thanks to Charles i got in contact with miriam ruiz (http://
www.miriamruiz.es/weblog/?p=69) who runs a project on rating
http://wiki.debian.org/OpenRating
other projects are:
TIGRS(tm), The Independent Game Rating System (Wikipedia)
PEGI, Pan European Game Information (Wikipedia)
ESRB, Entertainment Software Rating Board (Wikipedia)
DebTags, Debian Package Tags (Categories for Debian packages)
I think miriam can need some help
I don't want to raise another flame war, but I think we should
improve our awearness on those topics. A good game lives from
player <-> machine interaction, graphics and tactical options.
People who write those games often put most of their mind/wisdom
in those fields. Much less time is spend on the story behind the game,
Often it got just copied from an old one or an well known
blockbuster. This way we get the 1001st Race game
and 1000001st Ego shooter.
I think only cooperation between writers of stories and software can
help. How to boost it ? That's the question, i have to admit, i have
no answer.
I don't mind if the thread ends here. Let us write better storybooks
for games
Christof
Kevin Mark
I seem to have made a mistake regarding sending the previous message.
My fingers were quicker then my eyes and did not notice that this was a
private email which also had a header sending it to -project. I should
have noticed this and not sent it. My appologies to all involved for
disclosure of private email and for a possible breach of the list or
project rules.
-K
ps.
Thanks to Mr. Plessy for bringing it to my attention.
Florian Weimer
> log/2005-05:20050528100016|lisa|rejected|hot-babe_0.2.0-1_powerpc.changes
>
> I can't find the reason, so you'd have to ask Jörg about that.
IIRC, the images are non-free, and might even be used without consent
from the copyright holder.