current status of alpha in squeeze
Steve Langasek
At DebConf, the release team has discussed the state of the various Debian
ports and their viability for squeeze, and a number of concerns were
expressed about alpha.
I've added a couple more serious issues to the list on
<http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?users=debian...@lists.debian.org>
which will need attention in order for alpha to release with squeeze, and
I'm also told that upstream support for alpha has continued to atrophy -
including poor kernel+glibc support, because there is no one taking care of
the implementations of new syscalls for the kernel.
Buildd statistics at https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph-quarter-big.png
and https://buildd.debian.org/stats/graph2-quarter-big.png are also heading
the wrong way, and a recent thread on debian-alpha shows that eglibc 2.10
currently fails its testsuite.
Furthermore, I'm told that some Debian folks have been trying to contact you
about other matters, but that you may have been unresponsive due to real
life committments.
Do you still intend to carry the alpha port on your own? At this point, it
doesn't look like it will be releasable with squeeze. The release team
assessment is that there need to be signs that this is changing over the
next month, or else alpha should be dropped from the release planning.
Could you please let us know whether you will have time to work on this?
Awaiting your reply,
--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slan...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org
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Arthur Loiret
Sorry for the long time to answer, I'm just back from six weeks
without a real Internet connection. Unfortunately, I'm going to have
limited time to dedicate to Debian for the next months. I should still
be able to sign build logs, do manual rebuilds for FTBFS, and fix some
of them when it's not too tricky. But I won't have time to work on d-i
or the kernel.
On the upstream side, some of the porters seem to be still responsive
(see eglibc 2.10 testsuite regression, for example), and the alpha gcc
port has been adopted, or at least someone takes care of it. ;-)
To be short, I still intend to help for the alpha port, but I don't
think it will be enough for an official release. It would be great if
some other interested people had time to dedicate to the port.
Arthur.
2009/7/30, Steve Langasek <vor...@debian.org>:
Andreas Barth
> To be short, I still intend to help for the alpha port, but I don't
> think it will be enough for an official release. It would be great if
> some other interested people had time to dedicate to the port.
Unfortunatly we have to agree with this statement. We had to make an
decision. Based on the results of the overall feedback, we decided to
demote alpha as an release architecture.
This means, we will in about 14 days time start to remove the packages
from testing. Alpha will be completly ignored for any purposes of
testing migration as of now, and bugs specific to alpha are no longer
release critical grade.
Cheers,
Andi
Karl Goetz
Andreas Barth <a...@not.so.argh.org> wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I've got a question.
> * Arthur Loiret (alo...@debian.org) [090816 00:06]:
> > To be short, I still intend to help for the alpha port, but I don't
> > think it will be enough for an official release. It would be great
> > if some other interested people had time to dedicate to the port.
>
> Unfortunatly we have to agree with this statement. We had to make an
> decision. Based on the results of the overall feedback, we decided to
> demote alpha as an release architecture.
Shame, but entirely understandable.
> This means, we will in about 14 days time start to remove the packages
> from testing. Alpha will be completly ignored for any purposes of
> testing migration as of now, and bugs specific to alpha are no longer
> release critical grade.
Does this mean alpha remains in Sid, or will it be removed from
all distributions != stable?
kk
> Cheers,
> Andi
>
>
--
Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK5FOSS)
Debian contributor / gNewSense Maintainer
http://www.kgoetz.id.au
No, I won't join your social networking group
Bob Tracy
> On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:21:17 +0200
> Andreas Barth <a...@not.so.argh.org> wrote:
> > * Arthur Loiret (alo...@debian.org) [090816 00:06]:
> > > To be short, I still intend to help for the alpha port, but I don't
> > > think it will be enough for an official release. It would be great
> > > if some other interested people had time to dedicate to the port.
> >
> > Unfortunatly we have to agree with this statement. We had to make an
> > decision. Based on the results of the overall feedback, we decided to
> > demote alpha as an release architecture.
>
> all distributions != stable?
Looks like the "purge" has already begun... The package lists for
"testing" on Alpha are no longer available :-(. If "testing" is the
only thing that's disappearing, I can live with continued availability
of "unstable" and "experimental" packages.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Tracy | "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit
r...@frus.com | upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin
| slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Garron
I just found out that alpha was dropped from squeeze due to the fact
that Arthur Loiret was unable to complete the work for the release, as
he was working alone. Had I known this way earlier I would have
volunteer services to help Arthur; and it seems that a few other alpha
enthusiasts are willing also --
Is it too late to organize a group and to have them work together to put
alpha back on to the release list?
I obtained your addresses from a post from the general debian list and I
responded on Craig Prescott's web site.
---
Arthur if you are willing to run the group -- i.e. provide directions
for what people need to do and perform -- then I have the man power and
the systems to execute directions. I simply do not know anything about
how to build a debian release... My group only has the hardware,
internet connections and the willingness to help.
If Craig is still available, he seems to have done alot of the work also
-- so if we have both Arthur and Craig leading the group, and we have 3
others performing what needs to be done -- I think we can pull this off?
Please advise ---
Regards to all from yet another die hard Alpha user,
Robert
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Michael Cree
> I just found out that alpha was dropped from squeeze >
>; and it seems that a few other alpha enthusiasts are willing also
I'm prepared to pitch in and help. I am not a Debian Developer, but I
have over the last two or three years stepped up to provide Alpha
architecture support to the kernel (which is in better shape now than
when Squeeze was frozen) and helped to get the Xserver running again on
BWX capable Alphas.
I would be keen to see another Debian Alpha release so count me in. I
see also that Witold Baryluk in another very recent message has also
offered substantial support.
> Is it too late to organize a group and to have them work together to put
> alpha back on to the release list?
Maybe not, but it may need quick action. The FTP maintainers have just
reported that the Alpha port is to now to be completely removed from Debian.
Have Arthur or Craig provided any feedback?
Cheers
Michael.
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Phil Carmody
--- On Mon, 3/28/11, Michael Cree <mc...@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
> > I just found out that alpha was dropped from squeeze
> >
> [snip]
> > ; and it seems that a few other alpha enthusiasts are
> willing also
>
> I'm prepared to pitch in and help. I am not a Debian
> Developer, but I have over the last two or three years
> stepped up to provide Alpha architecture support to the
> kernel (which is in better shape now than when Squeeze was
> frozen) and helped to get the Xserver running again on BWX
> capable Alphas.
>
> I would be keen to see another Debian Alpha release so
> count me in. I see also that Witold Baryluk in another
> very recent message has also offered substantial support.
>
> > Is it too late to organize a group and to have them
> work together to put
> > alpha back on to the release list?
>
> Maybe not, but it may need quick action. The FTP
> maintainers have just reported that the Alpha port is to now
> to be completely removed from Debian.
I stopped using an Alpha as my primary machine because of combinded power supply and hard disk failure, and having spare pee-cees that I could replace it with immediately. That, and Ruffian (with Alphabios or Arcbios, I forget) stopped being supported, so it was practically impossible for me to actually reinstall debian on it were I to power it up again.
Since then, I've spent 2 years as a linux kernel developer, and feel much more confident about actually being able to contribute towards diagnosing and fixing problems rather than just detecting them.
As Nokia will be kicking my unwanted linux-coloured arse out on the street some time soon, it's entirely possible I will have more time to actively contribute to getting debian back on Alpha. I may need 'bootstrapping' on the Ruffian still, or perhaps picking up a 2nd hand 21264.
Phil
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Robert Garron
Well happy to connect with you. I agree we will have to move swiftly to get
Alpha back in with Debian...
All I need is direction as to what to do, when to do (now), and who to contact
(our growing list - but who in Debian land to contact). I do appreciate
your provided list of contacts - I hope they all respond to our call to have
Alpha Squeeze...
As to the firmware issue you mentioned below, I happen to have in my group a
few DEC employees (cc'ed also) and a contact who works with Alpha hardware.
From your note below I will shoot out a question about how hard it is to
update the firmware if needed?
The company that can do almost anything with Alpha's is Pyramid Technology
Services. They have Alpha experts with storage knowledge and they have the
ability to change 36 gig drives to 300 gig and possibly to the new 4 meg
cache tera byte drive... I was (and will) going to use them for a project
that has been in stasis for a year now... Anyway, this same company may have
the ability to update firmware? Without asking Joel we will never know... So,
I will cc Joel on this e-mail and call him to fill him in to see what he has
to say -- With firmware upgrade, you may have to pay him/his company for the
time, but without asking the status we would never know if they could even
perform the task... I know if any Alpha users need hardware support,
replacement parts, and repairs - Joel's company is the place to call. Joel
has the ability to frankly build almost anything... {Joel you are getting
free marketing here :) }
Anyway, What should our next steps be?
What my group has to offer a Debian Alpha group is:
Three (3) almost fully loaded working 4100's with HSC's and fully loaded bays.
Five (5) 2100's and one (1) DS20 (older model, unfortunately the motherboard
has an issue that has not been fixed yet - Joel's company can fix this -- we
just have not done it yet)
and another ~10 Alpha's of various sorts. The above are the real working
units.
Plan - I guess we need to finalize the list of people who can help, exchange
contacts, setup systems to perform the work, and ask Debian if they can
provided all of the past tools they have used to create a release... Maybe
Debian can provide a CD with a HowTo to setup a distro creation environment?
We can mount that so our new group can have full access. I guess we should
also setup git or subversion for source code control etc... I am probably
getting ahead of myself here as the group should decide how to proceed upon
its formation...
Please advise all and you can send contact info to:
o...@Access3000.net or directly to me -
Robert...@Access3000.net
I look forward to working with all of you to achieve this goal.
Regards,
Robert
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201103281037.441...@access3000.net
Joel Nimar
Glad to hear from you and thank you for your kind words. Pyramid can help
you with firmware upgrades. We have microfiche and cd's that tell us the
minimal acceptable revision level for maintenance and a firmware library we
have kept over the years. We can also maintain and repair systems both here
and abroard (I actually have a great technician in AU).
Let me know how I can help the success of your project
Best Wishes,
Joel Nimar
Pyramid Technology Services
10 Riverbank Rd
Maynard, MA 01754 USA
Tel 978-823-0700 fax 978-897-9611
www.pyramiddec.com
Your source for enterprise computing and networking products
Hi Phil-
Alpha Squeeze...
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/00c201cbed58$b6816770$23843650$@Ni...@pyramiddec.com
Robert Garron
Hi - glad to hear that you can help. All willing workers are welcomed. We
have a growing small group that can accomplish this task. Who know where it
will lead and what opportunities and adventures it can open.
You are on the growing group mailing list. We are getting organized and still
looking for a "director" - a guide as to how to do all of the work.
You will see e-mails from us as we solidify the process.
Regards,
Robert
On Thu March 24 2011 07:47:34 you wrote:
> Hi Robert.
> Thank you for your implication about Alpha architecture.
> Actually, I have little free time, but I am willing to collaborate in all I
> can for get Debian/Alpha back to life.
>
> My Alpha computers are available too.
>
> Regars,
> Rafa
>
> 2011/3/24 Robert Garron <Robert...@ieeda.net>
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201103281230.058...@access3000.net
Craig Prescott
> On 24/03/11 20:17, Robert Garron wrote:
>> I just found out that alpha was dropped from squeeze >
> [snip]
>> ; and it seems that a few other alpha enthusiasts are willing also
>
> I'm prepared to pitch in and help. I am not a Debian Developer, but I
> have over the last two or three years stepped up to provide Alpha
> architecture support to the kernel (which is in better shape now than
> when Squeeze was frozen) and helped to get the Xserver running again on
> BWX capable Alphas.
>
> I would be keen to see another Debian Alpha release so count me in. I
> see also that Witold Baryluk in another very recent message has also
> offered substantial support.
>
>> Is it too late to organize a group and to have them work together to put
>> alpha back on to the release list?
>
> Maybe not, but it may need quick action. The FTP maintainers have just
> reported that the Alpha port is to now to be completely removed from
> Debian.
>
> Have Arthur or Craig provided any feedback?
Sorry for the slow reply to this thread. I'm certainly willing to help
with this effort, as well!
For squeeze, the Alpha port looked in pretty decent shape, imo. I set
up a buildd and kept it building squeeze while it was in testing. I
dist-upgraded a few of my own machines along the way, and it seemed
fine. I never produced any media or installer images, though. I shut
off the buildd just prior to the official release of squeeze. I really
meant to get around to reconfiguring it to track squeeze updates in
stable, but I haven't got around to it. I can see about making my own
apt repo available if anyone is interested.
Cheers,
Craig
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Matt Turner
> Hi Robert:
> Glad to hear from you and thank you for your kind words. Pyramid can help
> you with firmware upgrades. We have microfiche and cd's that tell us the
> minimal acceptable revision level for maintenance and a firmware library we
> have kept over the years. We can also maintain and repair systems both here
> and abroard (I actually have a great technician in AU).
What kind of firmware/microcode are we talking about?
I kept reading these emails and then wondering if my brain was short circuiting.
Matt
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A.B.
I want to offer my help with my old Alpha computers.
But I only can make installing and hardware tests (video-cards, memory,
USB-cards, TV-cards? and other).
Computers: DEC 500au and DEC 433au
I did not find any distribution which could run on my alphas.
Are my computers interesting and/or practical for your purposes or are
the realy out-dated?
I don't want to let them die and all other alpha-ralated systems.
Regards,
Arne
Matt Turner
> I did not find any distribution which could run on my alphas.
I don't think you looked very hard. I wrote this page in Nov 2008 and
it's barely changed since:
http://alphalinux.org/wiki/index.php/Alpha_Linux_Wiki:Community_Portal#Distributions
> Are my computers interesting and/or practical for your purposes or are the
> realy out-dated?
They're pretty outdated, especially things older than EV6. For, say,
an 800 MHz UP1500, it's a usable, if a bit slow, system.
Matt
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Witold Baryluk
> On 24/03/11 20:17, Robert Garron wrote:
> >I just found out that alpha was dropped from squeeze >
> [snip]
> >; and it seems that a few other alpha enthusiasts are willing also
>
> I'm prepared to pitch in and help. I am not a Debian Developer, but
> I have over the last two or three years stepped up to provide Alpha
> architecture support to the kernel (which is in better shape now
> than when Squeeze was frozen) and helped to get the Xserver running
> again on BWX capable Alphas.
>
> I would be keen to see another Debian Alpha release so count me in.
> I see also that Witold Baryluk in another very recent message has
> also offered substantial support.
Thanks.
I have now running:
a) Two (2) working, running and connected to internet XP1000 (EV6, 21264A, 500MHz),
with 1GB RAM, and 4x9GB in RAID0 in each. They also have additional single IDE
drive, but considering DMA problems on XP1000, it is pretty slow in PIO mode
(but no so bad as I noramally expected, given normal PC performance in PIO mode).
b) Eight other (8) other XP1000, some of them do not have RAM,
or disks, or have some malfunctions. I think I still can merge somehow them,
to produce one or two working XP1000 with 1GB each, and one or two harddisk.
c) One (1) working 433au (+9GB SCSI, and 256MB RAM(, which will probably sell quickly :)
d) One (1) not yet unidenified AlphaServer. But I will assume is is dual EV6.
I will put one of a) as a server, and do main porting stuff there. Second of a),
will be as a terminal (XDCP, firefox, openoffice), so I will also test more
software. I would like to make one of this a), a buildd, if needed.
If I will finish b), I will actually have three XP1000, two as a servers,
and one as a workstation. So I can offer access to them after some arrangment.
One of this XP1000 (this for server), i already have everything running
in clean environment, and can offer it for any function You want.
(I have also fast local alpha+source+i386+amd64 mirror in a network).
I already stated in other e-mail, what I will do:
* try running 2.6.38, both from sid, and hand compiled.
* try various compilers, and fix problems if any.
* i'm looking into zdump -v, problem now, and will report in few days.
* i also compiler gcc-4.6, with full regression testing.
* i would also to run gcc-4.5 from sid, and check if it already performs
check testing, and if not (some architectures have checks disabled due
to the time it takes), build it on my machine with full check testing.
* later look at llvm, ldc, and gdc (D compilers).
* and other stuff i will incidently encounter.
I'm also currently configuring schroot with lenny and sid,
and test if I work there in this scroots, without destrupting
lenny installation on this machines. (I still wait for libc6.1 from
experimental to arive in sid/testing, so can upgrade more painlessly).
Regards,
Witek
--
Witold Baryluk
A.B.
Am 28.03.2011 22:04, schrieb Matt Turner:
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:28 PM, A.B.<arne-b...@foni.net> wrote:
>> I did not find any distribution which could run on my alphas.
I've been not very exactly, sorry. In the past i already tried a very
old version of a Mandrake version - successful.
But the system halted after a while - today i know - it was the Matrox
video-card.
In the last two weeks i reanimated the alphas - knowing they are very
old - so i tried gentoo and netBSD for alpha with less success and no gui.
Then i looked for debian squeeze for Alpha - and we are still looking
;-) - first i thought squeeze was ported to Alpha, too.
But only older versions of debian are ported - so i started looking for
a netinst.iso-download and i'm still looking.
Of course i've been on your wiki-page during my search.
Is there realy no free download-link for a debian netinst.iso for Alpha
in the web?
> I don't think you looked very hard. I wrote this page in Nov 2008 and
> it's barely changed since:
> http://alphalinux.org/wiki/index.php/Alpha_Linux_Wiki:Community_Portal#Distributions
>
>> Are my computers interesting and/or practical for your purposes or are the
>> realy out-dated?
> They're pretty outdated, especially things older than EV6. For, say,
> an 800 MHz UP1500, it's a usable, if a bit slow, system.
Oh - i thought that the Alphas are very old - but not ueseless and that
they should be new tablet-pcs ;-)
If i find an running "netinst" (perhaps you know where) then i will
start a last try for learning purposes
like it was my first intention.
> Matt
>
Many thanks!
Arne
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Witold Baryluk
> >>Are my computers interesting and/or practical for your purposes or are the
> >>realy out-dated?
> >They're pretty outdated, especially things older than EV6. For, say,
> >an 800 MHz UP1500, it's a usable, if a bit slow, system.
> Oh - i thought that the Alphas are very old - but not ueseless and
> that they should be new tablet-pcs ;-)
Yes, they look old, but when i looked at benchmarks, and performed
my own, it actually was pretty good. :)
> If i find an running "netinst" (perhaps you know where) then i will
> start a last try for learning purposes
> like it was my first intention.
Go to http://www.debian.org/ , search for "CD ISO images" and folow link,
then on next page search for phrase "For older releases, ....".
Hope this clue will help. ;)
(Last iso of version 5.0.8 for alpha is from Jan/Feb 2011! :)
Hope there will be lennyandhalf, similary to etchandhalf, with kernel
and xorg, and few other hard things from squeezy or testing,
as it will be semi-squeezy, and could somehow improve alpha support. :)
Regards,
Witek
--
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JID: witold.baryluk // jabster.pl
Craig Prescott
> Is it too late to organize a group and to have them work together to put
> alpha back on to the release list?
I have been out of town. Sorry for the slow reply.
I'd love to see Alpha back as a release architecture in Debian. But for
this to happen, my intuition is that there would need to be a
substantial demonstration of interest and effort to make this happen.
> I obtained your addresses from a post from the general debian list and I
> responded on Craig Prescott's web site.
>
> ---
> Arthur if you are willing to run the group -- i.e. provide directions
> for what people need to do and perform -- then I have the man power and
> the systems to execute directions. I simply do not know anything about
> how to build a debian release... My group only has the hardware,
> internet connections and the willingness to help.
That is a fantastic start. The Debian stuff *can* be learned.
> If Craig is still available, he seems to have done alot of the work also
> -- so if we have both Arthur and Craig leading the group, and we have 3
> others performing what needs to be done -- I think we can pull this off?
I am willing to commit effort.
Cheers,
Craig
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Craig Prescott
> All I need is direction as to what to do, when to do (now), and who to contact
> (our growing list - but who in Debian land to contact). I do appreciate
> your provided list of contacts - I hope they all respond to our call to have
> Alpha Squeeze...
I want to thank you for starting this thread. I'm catching up a little
bit, but I think you are asking about what would be required to
recertify Alpha as a release architecture in Debian. Is that correct?
I do not know what would be involved in the recertification of Alpha as
a release architecture for Debian. I'd be very interested to find out
the answer.
I do not know who in Debian to contact regarding the status of official
or semi-offical support for the Alpha architecture in Debian.
Presumably, there is a forum within the Debian community for discussion
of a port's health, viability, etc. The debian-alpha list was part of
the discussion back in 2009 re: Squeeze, but I'm not sure what other
forums were involved.
It may be useful to contact Steve Langasek, who was the Port Maintainter
and a heavy lifter for the Lenny release on Alpha. He may be able to
point us in the right direction for contacts.
FWIW, though, I don't think we're going to get far asking Debian
leadership about a *Squeeze* release on Alpha. I think that ship sailed
in 2009. Is that really what you meant? IMO, if there really is
interest and resources that can be committed to official or
semi-official support of Debian on Alpha, it would be better to look
beyond Squeeze.
> Anyway, What should our next steps be?
>
> What my group has to offer a Debian Alpha group is:
> Three (3) almost fully loaded working 4100's with HSC's and fully loaded bays.
> Five (5) 2100's and one (1) DS20 (older model, unfortunately the motherboard
> has an issue that has not been fixed yet - Joel's company can fix this -- we
> just have not done it yet)
> and another ~10 Alpha's of various sorts. The above are the real working
> units.
>
> Plan - I guess we need to finalize the list of people who can help, exchange
> contacts, setup systems to perform the work, and ask Debian if they can
> provided all of the past tools they have used to create a release... Maybe
> Debian can provide a CD with a HowTo to setup a distro creation environment?
> We can mount that so our new group can have full access. I guess we should
> also setup git or subversion for source code control etc... I am probably
> getting ahead of myself here as the group should decide how to proceed upon
> its formation...
I think these are good starting thoughts. I also have resources which I
can contribute, if they are useful
(http://www.alphalinux.org/wiki/index.php/User:Prescott is still about
right).
I'll make a few notes/thoughts below that may be of some use.
I never created installation media for my own build of Squeeze packages
on alpha. It was on my list, but I haven't gotten around to figuring
out the "Debian way" to do it (that was a goal of mine).
To build Debian packages for the alpha architecture - in the full-blown
Debian way - a wanna-build server, buildd machine(s), and an apt
repository will be needed. One or more humans will be needed to
digitally sign the debian packages and review the logs of failed builds
(and do something about them). When the human(s) sign the packages,
they can be uploaded to the apt repository. In Debian-speak, I believe
the humans in the above are referred to as "buildd-admins". Those
humans would need to be identified.
The wanna-build server need not be an alpha, but the buildd machines
would need to be (obviously).
Information regarding how to set up a wanna-build and buildd is on the
net. FWIW, I tried to document the setup I used to build squeeze for
alpha here:
http://www.ekkaia.net/~cpp/blog/?p=9
After processing the enormous backlog of packages (14,000 or so, I
think), I hovered around 97 or 98 percent of packages in the distro
built and uploaded. There were always some which gave trouble, that I
didn't care about (think mono-related packages and the like).
For the building of squeeze packages, I did not find the operation of
the buildd machines to be terribly time consuming (at most I used three
buildds - 2x CS20 and a UP1100, but I was starting from scratch and in
no hurry). I usually signed and uploaded blobs of packages once or
twice a day. On occasion I worked up patches or incorporated existing
ones into Debian packages - but this was fairly rare, and mostly related
to installation-media-only packages (and I never produced installation
media). I'm sure the lack of problems I experienced was greatly helped
by the alpha maintainers and Debian developers who kept the Alpha
version of unstable going strong. For the buildd machines, I found it
was better to have machines with drives larger than 9GB (system+chroot
space) - I could get into trouble space-wise if I did not upload often
enough.
As I understand, the Debian-speak for the role of the humans who kept
the active versions of packages working on a particular architecture is
"porter". I think it is not a problem for a "buildd-admin" and a
"porter" can be the same human. But from Debian's perspective, I don't
see how a one-man port can be viable long term.
For the apt repository, I used reprepro. IIRC, this is not what the
official repositories use, though. But after living with it for a
while, it seems very nice, and documentation is ubiquitous. There
should be a backup for the apt repository. I used an md mirror for my
main repository and backed it up to another machine (also with an md
mirror). If uploading into official Debian repos, this is probably all
taken care of, I'd guess(?). The size of my apt repository for alpha
squeeze packages is about 30GB.
Cheers,
Craig
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Michael Cree
> FWIW, though, I don't think we're going to get far asking Debian
> leadership about a *Squeeze* release on Alpha. I think that ship
> sailed in 2009.
Absolutely. The time to do something about the Squeeze release was 18
months to 2 years ago and has long past.
> Is that really what you meant? IMO, if there really is interest
> and resources that can be committed to official or semi-official
> support of Debian on Alpha, it would be better to look beyond Squeeze.
Yes. We will be looking towards Wheezy, but we need immediate and
substantial action otherwise Alpha is shortly to be removed from
Debian (I am not sure what the timeframe is, but the decision has
already been made).
> To build Debian packages for the alpha architecture - in the full-
> blown Debian way - a wanna-build server, buildd machine(s), and an
> apt repository will be needed.
Official ones exist at the moment but, as noted above, it appears they
may be about to be dismantled.
I agree that Steve Langasek is the person to contact at this stage.
Cheers
Michael.
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Robert Garron
Hi - see below ------------>
On Mon March 28 2011 10:34:01 Craig Prescott wrote:
> Robert Garron wrote:
> > All I need is direction as to what to do, when to do (now), and who to
> > contact (our growing list - but who in Debian land to contact). I do
> > appreciate your provided list of contacts - I hope they all respond to
> > our call to have Alpha Squeeze...
>
> I want to thank you for starting this thread. I'm catching up a little
> bit, but I think you are asking about what would be required to
> recertify Alpha as a release architecture in Debian. Is that correct?
Yes, that was the initial question...
>
> I do not know what would be involved in the recertification of Alpha as
> a release architecture for Debian. I'd be very interested to find out
> the answer.
Me too.
>
> I do not know who in Debian to contact regarding the status of official
> or semi-offical support for the Alpha architecture in Debian.
> Presumably, there is a forum within the Debian community for discussion
> of a port's health, viability, etc. The debian-alpha list was part of
> the discussion back in 2009 re: Squeeze, but I'm not sure what other
> forums were involved.
I guess I have some research to perform...
As I did not follow the "systems side of Debian" as I am a systems integrator
and was more interested in all of the various components (packages available
and updated to the latest releases). Thus I was totally unaware from the
forums that posted that Alpha was being dropped... someone sent us a page
that was available in 2009 to this effect, but I obviously missed that one...
>
> It may be useful to contact Steve Langasek, who was the Port Maintainter
> and a heavy lifter for the Lenny release on Alpha. He may be able to
> point us in the right direction for contacts.
This is what Bill Parke stated also - so I will try this tomorrow.
>
> FWIW, though, I don't think we're going to get far asking Debian
> leadership about a *Squeeze* release on Alpha. I think that ship sailed
> in 2009. Is that really what you meant? IMO, if there really is
> interest and resources that can be committed to official or
> semi-official support of Debian on Alpha, it would be better to look
> beyond Squeeze.
OK -- from my note directly to you -- if that is what we should do, then we
should look that way -- as it is estimated that the project can take about 6
months?
As the world seems to be moving to git -- to replace subversion, I guess that
would be the source control system of choice to setup ?
> One or more humans will be needed to
> digitally sign the debian packages and review the logs of failed builds
> (and do something about them).
This is the time consuming stuff - and this is where a well run team needs to
be assembled for such work.
> When the human(s) sign the packages,
> they can be uploaded to the apt repository. In Debian-speak, I believe
> the humans in the above are referred to as "buildd-admins". Those
> humans would need to be identified.
OK - a job yet to be done ....
>
> The wanna-build server need not be an alpha, but the buildd machines
> would need to be (obviously).
I would want to use an Alpha because it seems that less work would be required
to release? And with limited resources of all areas (time, man power,
systems etc... ) it would make sense to start with a plan that looks at
stream lining work loads...
>
> Information regarding how to set up a wanna-build and buildd is on the
> net. FWIW, I tried to document the setup I used to build squeeze for
> alpha here:
>
> http://www.ekkaia.net/~cpp/blog/?p=9
I will read this tomorrow and get back to you shortly.
>
> After processing the enormous backlog of packages (14,000 or so, I
> think), I hovered around 97 or 98 percent of packages in the distro
> built and uploaded. There were always some which gave trouble, that I
> didn't care about (think mono-related packages and the like).
I think we will have to make decisions as to what is built and debugged.
It is simple as that --
>
> For the building of squeeze packages, I did not find the operation of
> the buildd machines to be terribly time consuming (at most I used three
> buildds - 2x CS20 and a UP1100, but I was starting from scratch and in
> no hurry). I usually signed and uploaded blobs of packages once or
> twice a day. On occasion I worked up patches or incorporated existing
> ones into Debian packages - but this was fairly rare, and mostly related
> to installation-media-only packages (and I never produced installation
> media). I'm sure the lack of problems I experienced was greatly helped
> by the alpha maintainers and Debian developers who kept the Alpha
> version of unstable going strong. For the buildd machines, I found it
> was better to have machines with drives larger than 9GB (system+chroot
> space) - I could get into trouble space-wise if I did not upload often
> enough.
This is why I called Joel about disks -- we have an HSC system with 30/40 36
gig drives and we are going to upgrade to 300's OR if Joel can make the tera
byte drives work -- well then we have alot of storage to get all of this to
work...
>
> As I understand, the Debian-speak for the role of the humans who kept
> the active versions of packages working on a particular architecture is
> "porter". I think it is not a problem for a "buildd-admin" and a
> "porter" can be the same human. But from Debian's perspective, I don't
> see how a one-man port can be viable long term.
Absolutely -- this is why I am trying to find the last die-hards like myself
to help. My feeling is that Alphas were made to last, and in some cases
(application level) I have had Alphas beat out newer Dell/Intel and IBM
systems for a particular app... why -- overall architecture - end to end
design -- yes the processors of new are faster, but the I/O, memory, buses
etc sometimes are slower... And of course I am nostalgic to the Alphas...
>
> For the apt repository, I used reprepro. IIRC, this is not what the
> official repositories use, though. But after living with it for a
> while, it seems very nice, and documentation is ubiquitous. There
> should be a backup for the apt repository. I used an md mirror for my
> main repository and backed it up to another machine (also with an md
> mirror). If uploading into official Debian repos, this is probably all
> taken care of, I'd guess(?). The size of my apt repository for alpha
> squeeze packages is about 30GB.
OK - well with all of the initial volunteers we are off to a good start --
Now we simply need to get organized, and start to make a project plan with
assignments -- this will all happen in the next two weeks?
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
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Matt Turner
<Robert...@access3000.net> wrote:
>
Stop creating a new thread every time you reply. It makes reading the
email chains difficult.
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Bob Tracy
thing :-). Delighted to see all the interest in Alpha, even if it took
"the community" a while to wake up.)
Agreed that Steve Langasek is a logical/necessary person to contact if
this revival has a chance of succeeding.
As far as what I can bring to the table, I won't be able to test OS
installers unless my system has a meltdown making a complete reinstall
necessary: my Alpha is part of my operational infrastructure. On the
other hand, I *have* committed to running "sid" since that's the only
way I've been able to stay reasonably current: I tend to encounter
problems early :-). I can test the basic sanity of alpha-specific
kernels, but usually run a kernel built from the kernel.org release
candidate source tree to avoid potential problems with "initrd". I'm
familiar enough with the Debian package building process to roll my own
when things break badly enough to require the effort: at various times
over the past 2-3 years I've had to build custom versions of large chunks
of X11, firefox, udevd, aboot, and glibc. The PWS 433au is definitely
*not* a fire-breather by modern standards, i.e., firefox builds take on
the order of eight hours, so while I can test the build process for
various packages, my machine is not a good candidate for builds requiring
quick turnaround.
Respectfully,
--Bob
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Witold Baryluk
> On 29/03/2011, at 3:34 PM, Craig Prescott wrote:
> >FWIW, though, I don't think we're going to get far asking Debian
> >leadership about a *Squeeze* release on Alpha. I think that ship
> >sailed in 2009.
>
> Absolutely. The time to do something about the Squeeze release was
> 18 months to 2 years ago and has long past.
>
> > Is that really what you meant? IMO, if there really is interest
> >and resources that can be committed to official or semi-official
> >support of Debian on Alpha, it would be better to look beyond
> >Squeeze.
>
> Yes. We will be looking towards Wheezy, but we need immediate and
> substantial action otherwise Alpha is shortly to be removed from
> Debian (I am not sure what the timeframe is, but the decision has
> already been made).
>
> >To build Debian packages for the alpha architecture - in the full-
> >blown Debian way - a wanna-build server, buildd machine(s), and an
> >apt repository will be needed.
>
> Official ones exist at the moment but, as noted above, it appears
> they may be about to be dismantled.
>
> I agree that Steve Langasek is the person to contact at this stage.
>
packages with other compilation flags (like -march=core2 -fpmath=sse -O3 :D ),
and used it for some time (I resigned because many packages had manually
hard-coded gcc options, and I wanted to be no invasive, reported about 10 bugs,
in build of few important packages, to actually use proper way of acuiring gcc options).
So, I know how to configure schroot, and will also setup buildd,
and then look how it interact with wanna-build server.
Currently I'm reconfiguring my two boxes into RAID 1+0 (4 disks), so each will
have 20GB of local storage in fast and redundant setup. Additionally
in local network (100Mbps), I have NFS4 server with about 1TB of free space,
to which I can move builded packages before I or somebody else will upload
them where needed.
I previously have 6 disks in each of this boxes (XP1000), but it was overkill
(bandwidth was limited by something, and compilations was more CPU bound in tests
I performed, so essentially disks was not operating optimally).
Better will put more machines with fewer disks.
Third box (with similar setup) will be used as a workstation
with Xorg running, so I will actually install them and use this builded packages. :)
So it will be of course running Debian unstable.
I still trying to test a stability of hardware itself, before actually
using it for something really serious. No problems found yet, but just
for safety want to stress test this old hardware for some more time.
I think buildd problems can be resolved quickly, it just needs cooperation
and identifing people involved currnetly. Additionally we will need
to ask Security Team about status of buildd for s.d.o, as I understand they are separate
machines with better control from security team. They will probably want
redundant setup for this.
I had never built a cdimages for debian mayself, and I will probably
not have enaugh time to do one more thing. Maybe one day I will learn.
Or can we actually build cdimages on other architecture?
This way I could for example use another machine for this task,
but I really do not want this, as my net connection is only 10Mbps,
and uploading for example daily or weekly images which are very big,
will take quite long time and put big load on network.
So someone with better conectivity to place where images are going
to be uploaded is recomended for this task. :)
PS. I have actually 100Mbps connection to Debian mirror, so this 10Mbps
isn't such big problem actually. I will try talking to our network
administrator, if they provide more bandwidth to this subnetwork.
Tim Cutts
On 29 Mar 2011, at 04:30, Michael Cree wrote:
>> To build Debian packages for the alpha architecture - in the full-blown Debian way - a wanna-build server, buildd machine(s), and an apt repository will be needed.
>
> Official ones exist at the moment but, as noted above, it appears they may be about to be dismantled.
>
> I agree that Steve Langasek is the person to contact at this stage.
No-one has yet asked me to dismantle the two official debian alpha boxes which I host, and for which I am the local admin.
I am working under the assumption that goetz, the buildd, will remain in operation until Lenny security support stops, so presumably in February next year. Albeniz, the porter box, is presumably not being widely used any more at all. The DSA's might be willing to let it go sooner for you guys to use in your unofficial port efforts. If you can get someone in authority to say "yes, albeniz can go", and you have a data centre somewhere that it can be put, preferably in the UK to make transport feasible, then let me know and we can, between all of us, make arrangements to transfer the machine. The machine is currently hosted at the Sanger Institute, which is about 10 miles south of Cambridge, just off M11 J9.
Tim
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