Kvim broken in alioth
Rigo Wenning
http://www.inittab.de/blog/2005/03/28#20050328_dropping-kvim
According to popcon, kvim is the most often installed vim package after
vim and vim-common.
But it is not maintained...
*sigh*
Rigo
Am Friday 27 May 2005 16:03 verlautbarte Rigo Wenning :
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> Unfortunately, I just found:
> http://www.inittab.de/blog/2005/03/28#20050328_dropping-kvim
>
> According to popcon, kvim is the most often installed vim package after
> vim and vim-common.
>
> But it is not maintained...
all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then kvim
ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages available.
> > Is there any plan for a fix?
kvim is abandonded upstream and never worked that well to begin with
-> IMO at this point any fix at this point seems like a wast of time
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Robert Lindgren
> On Friday 27 May 2005 16:14, Rigo Wenning wrote:
> > Unfortunately, I just found:
> > http://www.inittab.de/blog/2005/03/28#20050328_dropping-kvim
> >
> > According to popcon, kvim is the most often installed vim package after
> > vim and vim-common.
> >
> > But it is not maintained...
>
> all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then kvim
> ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages available.
Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't find
anything that is better.
Cheers
Robert
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Alex Nordstrom
> all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then
> kvim ever did IMO).
Not in my experience. Kyzis doesn't even remember its own configuration
from session to session. I'll still stick with GVim (through vim-perl)
for some time.
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Nick Leverton
>
> > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then kvim
> > ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages available.
>
> Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't find
> anything that is better.
I'd certainly like to know. Neither yzis nor kyzis works when filled
into the Vim component selection of kcontrol. I get an error "your Vim
does not propvide any GUI support".
ii kyzis 20050526-1 KDE Frontend for the Yzis editor
ii kcontrol 3.3.2-1 KDE Control Center
Nick
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> On Friday 27 May 2005 19:09, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
> > On Friday 27 May 2005 16:14, Rigo Wenning wrote:
> > > Unfortunately, I just found:
> > > http://www.inittab.de/blog/2005/03/28#20050328_dropping-kvim
> > >
> > > According to popcon, kvim is the most often installed vim package
> > > after vim and vim-common.
> > >
> > > But it is not maintained...
> >
> > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then
> > kvim ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages available.
>
> Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't find
> anything that is better.
I always found the kvim ui to very quirky, with several very annying (to me)
bugs, like the one where the window automatically started shrinking when
you opened it, or when it started shrinking
Those quirks always annoyed me enough that I never really used kvim, as I
always got frustrated with the gui fast, Kyzis so far hasn't really annoyed
me (but then my vi usage is fairly basic).
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> On Friday 27 May 2005 20:26, Nick Leverton wrote:
> > On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 08:05:59PM +0200, Robert Lindgren wrote:
> > > > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better
> > > > then kvim ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages
> > > > available.
> > >
> > > Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't
> > > find anything that is better.
> Kyzis works as kpart conforming to the texteditor interface
> -> you need to set it as the preferred component for embedded viewing of
> whatever mime-type you want to open in it.
> -> it also works in e.g kdevelop
general integration with the rest of kde is IMO also an area where kyzis
shines in comparison with kvim
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> > > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then
> > > kvim ever did IMO). see www.yzis.org, they have deb packages
> > > available.
> >
> > Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't
> > find anything that is better.
>
> I'd certainly like to know. Neither yzis nor kyzis works when filled
> into the Vim component selection of kcontrol. I get an error "your Vim
> does not propvide any GUI support".
That's the configuration thing for vimpart which has nothing at all to do
with any non vim-? editors (hence it won't recognize kyzis, or other
vi-alike editors)
Kyzis works as kpart conforming to the texteditor interface
-> you need to set it as the preferred component for embedded viewing of
whatever mime-type you want to open in it.
-> it also works in e.g kdevelop
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> On Sat, 28 May 2005 01:09, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
> > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then
> > kvim ever did IMO).
>
> Not in my experience. Kyzis doesn't even remember its own configuration
> from session to session. I'll still stick with GVim (through vim-perl)
> for some time.
I'm mostly comparing them from a vi-like editor kde app, it's the
kde-integration I'm looking for (function as kpart, work with ioslaves,
look like the rest of the apps, ..), I tend to mostly actual work from a
commandline (vt, or konsole) anyway, In which case I'll use plain vim
I never got kvim working sufficiently well that I could have it open more
then briefly before I closed it again out of sheer annoyance. I've had no
such frustratrions with kyzis sofar (but then i use it mostly as a way to
open textfiles in an embedded text viewer within konqueror, not exactly
heavy usage)
Nick Leverton
> On Friday 27 May 2005 23:18, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
> > Kyzis works as kpart conforming to the texteditor interface
> > -> you need to set it as the preferred component for embedded viewing of
> > whatever mime-type you want to open in it.
> > -> it also works in e.g kdevelop
Aha, thank you for the tip. How do I configure it when it's used as a
kpart though ? It doesn't add its entry to the Konqi settings menu, the
standalone program doesn't change the kpart, and its idea of a colour
schema is ... well, not readable on my desktop.
And nyzis displays in white-text-on-white, which is even less useful.
> general integration with the rest of kde is IMO also an area where kyzis
> shines in comparison with kvim
On a quick test, it falls down badly on both keystroke compatibility and
command usability. I could possibly get used to its implementation of
vi commands (after all I did start on vi many years before I got used
to the power of vim), but yzis seems very buggy, either that or it has
more differences than those detailed on the web site. If you can point
me at a bugzilla or similar I'll go and enter what I've found.
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> It doesn't add its entry to the Konqi settings menu,
> the standalone program doesn't change the kpart,
bugs)
> If you can point me at a bugzilla or similar I'll go and enter what I've
> found.
Matej Cepl
> I never got kvim working sufficiently well that I could have it open more
> then briefly before I closed it again out of sheer annoyance. I've had no
> such frustratrions with kyzis sofar (but then i use it mostly as a way to
> open textfiles in an embedded text viewer within konqueror, not exactly
> heavy usage)
Well, was not much exciting for me either, but at least it worked like vim.
Where in kyzis I can find:
- folding
- digraphs
- advanced outliner (http://www.vimoutliner.org)
- LaTeX editing environment (like vim-latexsuite)
- email editing environment (like mail.vim)
- etc., etc.
Well, I cannot, so the result is that for next couple of years (before kyzis
will be developed), I have touch luck. I know that there is not much joy in
maintaining something which doesn't work well, and which is doomed to be
scrapped anyway, but during that time even kate will be usable. Oh, well.
For anybody interested I have ignited long discussion on comp.editors about
kvim and kyzis like two weeks ago -- Google Groups are your friends.
Best,
Matej
--
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My point was simply that such tax proposals [for Pigovian taxes
compensating for the transaction costs] are the stuff that dreams
are made of. In my youth it was said, that what was too silly to
be said may be sung. In modern economics it may be put into
mathematics.
-- Ronald Coase
Notes on the Problem of Social Cost
Matej Cepl
> kvim is abandonded upstream and never worked that well to begin with
So, we have kyzis comparing to which kate is mighty tool.
Matej
--
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words?
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(about William Faulkner)
Matej Cepl
>> It doesn't add its entry to the Konqi settings menu,
>> the standalone program doesn't change the kpart,
> I think it's supposed to work the way you guessed (wich would make these
> bugs)
It is not in Konqui's settings, but go to Control Panel/KDE
Components/Setting KDE Components.
Matej
--
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He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends.
-- Oscar Wilde
Fabricio "segfault" Cannini
> > > all the kvim authors moved over to kyzis (already working better then
> > > kvim ever did IMO).
It sounds like a dream coming true!!
> > Could you specify what is better with yzis compared to kvim? I can't find
> > anything that is better.
I, for example, could never set vim to use a specific font.
If i'd do so, kvim would freak out and display the text very badly.
Example:
<text_diplayed_in_vim>
Mary had a little lard.
</text_diplayed_in_vim>
<text_diplayed_in_kvim>
M a r y ha d a lit t le l ar d
<text_diplayed_in_kvim>
Then I simply put kvim aside.
Kyzis is promising good things, let's wait for it.
See you.
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Pierre Habouzit
> Unfortunately, I just found:
> http://www.inittab.de/blog/2005/03/28#20050328_dropping-kvim
>
> According to popcon, kvim is the most often installed vim package
> after vim and vim-common.
>
> But it is not maintained...
>
> *sigh*
kvim is not maintained upstream, the patch is ugly, and we (debian vim
packagers) decided to drop it, since we hadn't the time to take over
upstream.
and in popcon, vim-gtk, vim-gnome, vim-python and alike are all
graphical uis, and if you sum them up, they are more used than kvim
IIRC.
moreover, kvim has *never* been of release quality (not in a debian
sense, but in absolute) : full of graphical glitches, UI problems, and
utilization malfunctions.
so we drop it. but if you feel like you can fix all those + maintain the
patch, you are welcome, and we'd gladly add it again
MadCoder, with debian-vim maintainer cap on
--
·O· Pierre Habouzit
··O madc...@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org
Nick Leverton
> cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
> >> It doesn't add its entry to the Konqi settings menu,
> >> the standalone program doesn't change the kpart,
> > I think it's supposed to work the way you guessed (wich would make these
> > bugs)
>
> It is not in Konqui's settings, but go to Control Panel/KDE
> Components/Setting KDE Components.
I only have a dropdown to choose the text editor component, no option to
configure that component. Kate does, and (IIRC, don't have it installed
at the moment) Kvim used to, give a config item in the menus of whatever
they were embedded in. But I can't see a way to configure embedded yzis.
ii kcontrol 3.3.2-1 KDE Control Center
ii kyzis 20050526-1 KDE Frontend for the Yzis editor
Nick
Pierre Habouzit
> I believe part of the bad reputation kvim got was caused by people
> being too lazy to do things slightly different than gvim/GTK (which
> does things again differently than gvim/Athena).
maybe part of. but I do not use gvim-gtk/gnome/athena/... and I tried
kvim, for 3 monthes. But I really disliked it, mostly for beeing slow,
having graphical artifacts, and some annoying bugs (like the resize bug
that is really well known and not understood at all).
kvim was a really nice idea, and I can tell I'm really sorry it never
worked very well, because I really miss the idea. Well, maybe kyzis
will be ready some day, but I'm not sure it will be as powerfull as vim
is so soon.
Matej Cepl
> I, for example, could never set vim to use a specific font.
> If i'd do so, kvim would freak out and display the text very badly.
> Example:
> <text_diplayed_in_vim>
> Mary had a little lard.
> </text_diplayed_in_vim>
>
> <text_diplayed_in_kvim>
> M a r y ha d a lit t le l ar d
> <text_diplayed_in_kvim>
>
> Then I simply put kvim aside.
I know that it doesn't matter anymore, but still. This is my ~/.gvimrc which
can explain what you were supposed to do:
if has("gui_kde")
set guifont=Andale\ Mono/12/-1/5/50/0/0/0/0/0
else
set guifont=DejaVu\ Sans\ Mono\ 10
endif
I believe part of the bad reputation kvim got was caused by people being too
lazy to do things slightly different than gvim/GTK (which does things again
differently than gvim/Athena).
Best,
Matej
--
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej
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announced to his congregation: "I have good news and bad news.
The good news is, we have enough money to pay for our new
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pockets."
-- innocent Subject line of very non-innocent spam
Rigo Wenning
already use kate most of the time as starting up gvim in KDE takes a
lot of time and editing large files makes a lot of probs. The only
thing missing in Kate is the ex-functionality, kind of integrated sed
being able to address ranges and complicated regex. That's what I use
vim for and this already existed in the initial vi.
I had also lots of trouble with kvim in my weired setup, but it is just
a pity to start the whole gnome-bazar to be able to have a nice-looking
vi.
And no, I can't maintain it, as I'm not a programmer nor do I have
sufficient time. So I was just looking for a qt-GUI for vi. But it
seems that editor-maintainers are more attracted by gnome.
Best,
Rigo
Am Saturday 28 May 2005 01:04 verlautbarte Matej Cepl :
Matej Cepl
> And no, I can't maintain it, as I'm not a programmer nor do I have
> sufficient time. So I was just looking for a qt-GUI for vi. But it
> seems that editor-maintainers are more attracted by gnome.
To be fair to KVim developers please read threads "Why lua? or questions
about yzis" on comp.editors (available at
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.editors/browse_thread/thread/efa5636fb753e83d/>)
and gmane.editors.yzis.devel at
<http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.editors.yzis.devel/522>. Apparently, both
GUI code in gvim is totally unsuitable for KDE support and Bram was
unsupportive to the whole idea of KVim.
Matej
--
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej
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victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The
robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at
some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own
good will torment us without end, for they do so with the
approval of their consciences.
-- C. S. Lewis
Rigo Wenning
> and Bram was
> unsupportive to the whole idea of KVim.
That's what I meant. KVim had to re-engineer too many things because of
the lack of support from upstream. So I will have to wait for kate to
get more regex-support. What is a bit sad is that efforts are now split
between yzis and kate instead of championing one editor. But this is
how the world works today. As most of my work is HTML-hacking, emacs is
an option too. Vim got really bad with XML-extensions. Backspace on a
12k-line XML-document took several seconds to respond.
Thanks for all the feedback.
Rigo
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> Am Monday 30 May 2005 12:22 verlautbarte Matej Cepl :
> What is a bit sad is that efforts are now split between yzis and kate
> instead of championing one editor. But this is how the world works today.
yes and no:
- yes there both editors, so in that sense there's duplication
- they have different scopes though: kate is a general kde-only editor, yzis
is a portable backend library for a vi-like editor, with several frontends
(amongst which a kde one that also acts as a editor-kpart). Userbase for a
vi-like editor, and userbase for a normal gui-editor don't really overlap.
- kate and yzis do share code where it makes sense (one example being the
highlighting for different sorts of files, where they both use the same
LUA-syntax files AIUI)
Isaac Clerencia
> On Monday 30 May 2005 14:26, Rigo Wenning wrote:
> > Am Monday 30 May 2005 12:22 verlautbarte Matej Cepl :
> >
> > What is a bit sad is that efforts are now split between yzis and kate
> > instead of championing one editor. But this is how the world works today.
>
> yes and no:
> - yes there both editors, so in that sense there's duplication
> - they have different scopes though: kate is a general kde-only editor,
> yzis is a portable backend library for a vi-like editor, with several
> frontends (amongst which a kde one that also acts as a editor-kpart).
> Userbase for a vi-like editor, and userbase for a normal gui-editor don't
> really overlap. - kate and yzis do share code where it makes sense (one
> example being the highlighting for different sorts of files, where they
> both use the same LUA-syntax files AIUI)
Just now Kate and Kyzis developers are talking about how to share as most code
as possible, in fact, the next step is being to be able to use the Yzis
component inside Kate :)
Best regards
--
Isaac Clerencia at Warp Networks, http://www.warp.es
Work: <is...@warp.es> | Debian: <is...@debian.org>
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> Just now Kate and Kyzis developers are talking about how to share as most
> code as possible, in fact, the next step is being to be able to use the
> Yzis component inside Kate :)
interesting, how exactly will that work? I'm not sure how to picture that.
Isaac Clerencia
> On Monday 30 May 2005 16:13, Isaac Clerencia wrote:
> > Just now Kate and Kyzis developers are talking about how to share as most
> > code as possible, in fact, the next step is being to be able to use the
> > Yzis component inside Kate :)
>
> interesting, how exactly will that work? I'm not sure how to picture that.
can check the archives although just now there have been only three mails
about this issue). I guess the Yzis will only provide the KTextEdit part
which will be embedded in Kate as the current part is used just now.
The problem is that Kate doesn't use the standard KTextEdit just now because
it lacks some features, so the first step is enhance KTextEdit so Kate can
use standard parts.
cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> On Monday 30 May 2005 16:13, Isaac Clerencia wrote:
> > Just now Kate and Kyzis developers are talking about how to share as
> > most code as possible, in fact, the next step is being to be able to
> > use the Yzis component inside Kate :)
>
> interesting, how exactly will that work? I'm not sure how to picture
> that.
yzis-list: http://lists.freenux.org/wws/arc/yzis-dev/2005-05/msg00089.html
kate-list: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kwrite-devel&m=111727447804948&w=2
ah, seems they envision kate as a gui around any ktexteditor part, cool