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Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
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Steve McIntyre
May 12, 2012, 12:10:02 PM5/12/12
to
Hey folks,
Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
supporting the following single-CD installations:
* Gnome desktop from CD#1
* KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
* XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
* LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
* base system only from netinst CD
At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
people that they will need to use at least one of:
* more CDs
* a DVD
* a network mirror
to get a useful/useable installation.
Gnome/KDE people: if you *can* do a single-CD installation for Wheezy,
please say so. If not, we'll need to make sure we get documents
updated (like the Release Manual), and maybe even consider extra
release images (e.g. a 2GB USB stick image).
Talk to me, please...
--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
Into the distance, a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
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Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
supporting the following single-CD installations:
* Gnome desktop from CD#1
* KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
* XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
* LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
* base system only from netinst CD
At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
people that they will need to use at least one of:
* more CDs
* a DVD
* a network mirror
to get a useful/useable installation.
Gnome/KDE people: if you *can* do a single-CD installation for Wheezy,
please say so. If not, we'll need to make sure we get documents
updated (like the Release Manual), and maybe even consider extra
release images (e.g. a 2GB USB stick image).
Talk to me, please...
--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. st...@einval.com
Into the distance, a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
--
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Timo Juhani Lindfors
May 12, 2012, 4:10:01 PM5/12/12
to
Steve McIntyre <st...@einval.com> writes:
> At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
> work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
> people that they will need to use at least one of:
I agree. I tried installing debian gnome desktop from CD1 during last
> At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
> work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
> people that they will need to use at least one of:
debconf and ended up getting a system that does not have network manager
or support for suspend:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2011/08/msg00172.html
Since Debian is universal I can understand that we can't fit the desktop
to CD1 but I think we should clearly state that so that users are not
surprised by the crippled system they get after the installation is
finished.
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Guillem Jover
May 12, 2012, 8:10:02 PM5/12/12
to
On Sat, 2012-05-12 at 17:04:16 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
Yes, I'd not see any problem from my side with switching the default
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
dpkg-deb compression to xz for 1.16.4, if people are fine with that (as
long as it's not conditional). Last time there were some concerns about
slow architectures or low memory systems, but the default preset is
quite conservative so I don't really see the issue. And if specific
packages are problematic they can always decide to use another
compression type or level. Also if udeb:s are going to be using
xz then it makes even more sense to use it for everything.
thanks,
guillem
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Philipp Kern
May 13, 2012, 3:30:02 AM5/13/12
to
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:06:25AM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> Also if udeb:s are going to be using xz then it makes even more sense to use
> it for everything.
µdebs won't use the xz default, though. (The compression for them will be
> Also if udeb:s are going to be using xz then it makes even more sense to use
> it for everything.
handled in debhelper.)
With the compression scheme I posted to -boot it doesn't need more memory than
gzip while still compressing better. I don't see any trouble in activating
xz for amd64/i386 immediately before the release, if the problem with the core
packages is solved. (I.e. debootstrap avoiding any ties to xz or avoiding the
compression of core packages.)
Kind regards
Philipp Kern
Michael Gilbert
May 13, 2012, 6:40:03 PM5/13/12
to
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>
> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
> * XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * base system only from netinst CD
>
> At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
> work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
> people that they will need to use at least one of:
>
> * more CDs
> * a DVD
> * a network mirror
>
> to get a useful/useable installation.
What about supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments
> Hey folks,
>
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>
> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
> * XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * base system only from netinst CD
>
> At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
> work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn
> people that they will need to use at least one of:
>
> * more CDs
> * a DVD
> * a network mirror
>
> to get a useful/useable installation.
(maybe even making one of the the default environment)? Then there
wouldn't be the need for multiple CD #1's. Anyone that wants
gnome/kde after installation will need to grab those from the mirrors
(or use DVD or greater media).
Best wishes,
Mike
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Neil Williams
May 13, 2012, 7:50:02 PM5/13/12
to
what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be
acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable.
There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back
below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release.
I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in
the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages.
--
Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
Joey Hess
May 13, 2012, 8:40:02 PM5/13/12
to
Neil Williams wrote:
> "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly
> what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be
> acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable.
> There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back
> below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release.
>
> I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
>
> That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in
> the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages.
While I have started putting XFCE on systems I install for family etc,
> "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly
> what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be
> acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable.
> There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back
> below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release.
>
> I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
>
> That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in
> the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages.
I am not sure if it's really suitable yes to be the default desktop
environment. There are probably quite a lot of fit and finish issues.
Here are two major problems:
* Currently the XFCE taks uses wicd, which has a much less polished UI
than network-manager. For example, when wicd needs a password, it
opens a rather complex configuration panel, rather than just prompting
for the password. Probably some users also use network-manager for
things like cell connections, that wicd doesn't support.
* There does not seem to be much accessability support in XFCE. With
gnome, we have a fully accessible system from the login manager on.
Accessability improvements are on the XFCE roadmap; this should
improve with time. http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility
I hope that we can avoid the CD size forcing the desktop for at least
one more release. Note that we had the same trouble the last two
releases, and managed to make it fit in the end both times.
--
see shy jo
Marco d'Itri
May 13, 2012, 8:50:02 PM5/13/12
to
On May 14, Neil Williams <code...@debian.org> wrote:
> I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
What is the point of providing a default which is not what people
> I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
usually want?
Just document that a normal desktop install will require two CDs.
Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
over 10 years now.
--
ciao,
Marco
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
May 13, 2012, 9:30:02 PM5/13/12
to
On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió:
[snip]
players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally
people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/
Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD
installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs.
Kinds regards, Lisandro.
--
http://xkcd.com/150/
Personas como ésta no se encuentran todos los días. Y cuando uno las
encuentra, suelen no estar disponibles.
Si encontrás una, no la pierdas.
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
[snip]
> Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
> systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> over 10 years now.
Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge, CDROM
> systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> over 10 years now.
players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally
people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/
Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD
installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs.
Kinds regards, Lisandro.
--
http://xkcd.com/150/
Personas como ésta no se encuentran todos los días. Y cuando uno las
encuentra, suelen no estar disponibles.
Si encontrás una, no la pierdas.
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
Samuel Thibault
May 13, 2012, 9:40:01 PM5/13/12
to
Hello,
Joey Hess, le Sun 13 May 2012 20:39:20 -0400, a écrit :
> Neil Williams wrote:
> > "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly
> > what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be
> > acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable.
> > There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back
> > below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release.
> >
> > I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> > possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
> >
> > That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in
> > the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages.
>
> While I have started putting XFCE on systems I install for family etc,
> I am not sure if it's really suitable yes to be the default desktop
> environment. There are probably quite a lot of fit and finish issues.
> Here are two major problems:
>
>[...]
accessible system from the login manager on. The gnome3 transition
has brought a lot of regressions, and using XFCE as a base for an
accessible desktop makes a lot of sense; at least as much it does with
gnome3. Quoting the abovementioned page:
“but there are a lot of parts of the interface (custom widgets, buttons
without label) that are hard to access with a screen reader.”
I haven't tried myself, but gnome3 most probably introduced
non-accessible custom widgets, buttons without labels, etc. For
instance, the alt-F2 widget, used a lot by blind people, is currently
inaccessible...
> I hope that we can avoid the CD size forcing the desktop for at least
> one more release. Note that we had the same trouble the last two
> releases, and managed to make it fit in the end both times.
It looked to me like it was harder and harder each time.
Samuel
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Joey Hess, le Sun 13 May 2012 20:39:20 -0400, a écrit :
> Neil Williams wrote:
> > "supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments" is exactly
> > what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be
> > acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable.
> > There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back
> > below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release.
> >
> > I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and
> > possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options.
> >
> > That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in
> > the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages.
>
> While I have started putting XFCE on systems I install for family etc,
> I am not sure if it's really suitable yes to be the default desktop
> environment. There are probably quite a lot of fit and finish issues.
> Here are two major problems:
>
>
> * There does not seem to be much accessability support in XFCE. With
> gnome, we have a fully accessible system from the login manager on.
> Accessability improvements are on the XFCE roadmap; this should
> improve with time. http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility
Well, things are not so clear. With gnome, we *used* to have a fully
> * There does not seem to be much accessability support in XFCE. With
> gnome, we have a fully accessible system from the login manager on.
> Accessability improvements are on the XFCE roadmap; this should
> improve with time. http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility
accessible system from the login manager on. The gnome3 transition
has brought a lot of regressions, and using XFCE as a base for an
accessible desktop makes a lot of sense; at least as much it does with
gnome3. Quoting the abovementioned page:
“but there are a lot of parts of the interface (custom widgets, buttons
without label) that are hard to access with a screen reader.”
I haven't tried myself, but gnome3 most probably introduced
non-accessible custom widgets, buttons without labels, etc. For
instance, the alt-F2 widget, used a lot by blind people, is currently
inaccessible...
> I hope that we can avoid the CD size forcing the desktop for at least
> one more release. Note that we had the same trouble the last two
> releases, and managed to make it fit in the end both times.
Samuel
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Jonas Smedegaard
May 14, 2012, 12:30:02 AM5/14/12
to
On 12-05-13 at 10:26pm, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote:
> On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió:
> [snip]
> > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
> > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> > What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> > over 10 years now.
>
> Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge, CDROM
> players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally
> people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/
It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not have
> On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió:
> [snip]
> > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
> > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> > What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> > over 10 years now.
>
> Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge, CDROM
> players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally
> people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/
any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia network access
is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD drives the common
media downloaded and used is CD.
> Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for
> one-CD installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs.
what is then the problem in putting light desktop environment on CD1?
- Jonas
--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private
Marco d'Itri
May 14, 2012, 5:30:03 AM5/14/12
to
On May 14, Jonas Smedegaard <d...@jones.dk> wrote:
> It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not have
> any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia network access
> is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD drives the common
> media downloaded and used is CD.
This does not look like a great argument: when your internet access is
> It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not have
> any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia network access
> is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD drives the common
> media downloaded and used is CD.
really slow then you either download one image and share it between user
(and then it does not matter if it is a CD or DVD, since the incremental
cost per user is negligible), or you just download the netinstall image
to minimize the number of bytes you need to download from the network to
what you strictly need (yes, I did a few modem netinstalls...).
--
ciao,
Marco
Jonas Smedegaard
May 14, 2012, 6:40:02 AM5/14/12
to
efficient than is currently practiced at many places in the World.
Yes, I have also installed whole networks via 28.8 modem quite some
years ago.
But question was if people are known to routinely try to install desktop
systems with only a CD and no networking, and I shared my insight on
that.
I wish people would collaborate more.
I wish people would care more about efficient use of resources.
I did not claim that there was great sense behind that usage pattern,
but I do claim that it is reality in some parts of the World.
But until let's make Debian easy available also for those who are not
yet as wise and clever as ourselves.
Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant
for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases
to install non-bloated desktop at places with flaky/expensive Internet.
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
May 14, 2012, 9:30:02 AM5/14/12
to
On Lun 14 May 2012 07:30:30 Jonas Smedegaard escribió:
[snip]
> I did not claim that there was great sense behind that usage pattern,
> but I do claim that it is reality in some parts of the World.
Indeed, I have seen that pattern before, although I think it was because
people are used to get CDs, not DVDs (ie, just a matter of habit).
> Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant
> for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases
> to install non-bloated desktop at places with flaky/expensive Internet.
Yes. And having installation media that needs two or more CDs for "Standard
desktop foo" seems not a bad idea. Also, we can suggest people to try and get
the DVD instead of the two mediums ;-)
Regards, Lisandro.
--
"La política es una actividad noble. Hay que revalorizarla, ejerciéndola con
vocación y una dedicación que exige testimonio, martirio, o sea, morir
por el bien común."
Padre Bergoglio - http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1153060
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
[snip]
> I wish people would collaborate more.
>
> I wish people would care more about efficient use of resources.
Me too :-)
>
> I wish people would care more about efficient use of resources.
> I did not claim that there was great sense behind that usage pattern,
> but I do claim that it is reality in some parts of the World.
people are used to get CDs, not DVDs (ie, just a matter of habit).
> Let's keep providing CDs as install medium, because it is still relevant
> for some (and, I vaguely feel, not only exotically few) real use cases
> to install non-bloated desktop at places with flaky/expensive Internet.
desktop foo" seems not a bad idea. Also, we can suggest people to try and get
the DVD instead of the two mediums ;-)
Regards, Lisandro.
--
"La política es una actividad noble. Hay que revalorizarla, ejerciéndola con
vocación y una dedicación que exige testimonio, martirio, o sea, morir
por el bien común."
Padre Bergoglio - http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1153060
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
Joey Hess
May 14, 2012, 11:40:01 AM5/14/12
to
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote:
> Indeed, I have seen that pattern before, although I think it was because
> people are used to get CDs, not DVDs (ie, just a matter of habit).
Another reason is that it's more likely for a throwaway USB key to be in
> Indeed, I have seen that pattern before, although I think it was because
> people are used to get CDs, not DVDs (ie, just a matter of habit).
the 1-2 gb range than the 5 gb range.
--
see shy jo
Steve Langasek
May 14, 2012, 12:50:01 PM5/14/12
to
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:26:13PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote:
> On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió:
> [snip]
> > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
> > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> > What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> > over 10 years now.
> Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge,
> CDROM players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?)
> Normally people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in
> Argentina :-/
> Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD
> installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs.
As a data point, the 12.10 Ubuntu release, which is in about the same time
> On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió:
> [snip]
> > Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop
> > systems with only a CD and no networking, and why?
> > What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for
> > over 10 years now.
> Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge,
> CDROM players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?)
> Normally people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in
> Argentina :-/
> Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD
> installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs.
frame as wheezy, will not include a CD-sized desktop image. After holding
this line for a long time, it's been decided that we've passed the point of
diminishing returns and that *slowly* allowing an increase in image size
(e.g., 800MB for this cycle instead of 736MB) allows us to define the
default install in terms of what's useful instead of just in terms of what
we can fit on a CD.
So to use the image you need either a DVD or a USB stick, and if you're
using a write-once DVD you're perhaps wasting the unused space; but the
download time and install footprint are still kept low and in the range of
what a CD would give.
Maybe worth considering something similar for Debian.
--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slan...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org
Jon Dowland
May 15, 2012, 5:30:01 AM5/15/12
to
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:34:39AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> So to use the image you need either a DVD or a USB stick, and if you're using
> a write-once DVD you're perhaps wasting the unused space; but the download
> time and install footprint are still kept low and in the range of what a CD
> would give.
In the UK at least, the price of a CD-R and a DVD+R is approximately the same,
> So to use the image you need either a DVD or a USB stick, and if you're using
> a write-once DVD you're perhaps wasting the unused space; but the download
> time and install footprint are still kept low and in the range of what a CD
> would give.
although CD-Rs are becoming rarer in brick-and-mortar shops. I still attempt
to use CD-R media when burning install discs, but that's only if I happen to
have some (and I don't mind the wasted space burning netinst to a 700M CD-R).
I think what I'm saying is I agree with you for my use-cases at least.
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Steve McIntyre
May 15, 2012, 8:40:01 AM5/15/12
to
[ re-adding CC to debian-cd and debian-boot ]
Adam Borowski wrote:
>
>amd64's CD 1 is reduced to 2/3 of its current size (data from June(?) 2010).
OK. That'll help in the short term, I guess. But I've no idea how long
it will take for package builds to make a dent on this organically
(i.e. without a deliberate rebuild effort). I'm expecting that we'll
still struggle to get a *good* Gnome or KDE installation from a single
CD regardless. We've managed a minimal set in the past, but I'd rather
we give a good impression with a basic Debian installation than come
up with something that *only* just fits.
Related, I'm also pondering about:
1. Which installer images it makes sense to provide for wheezy
We currently provide a huge set of different images:
* business card and netinst images for (almost) all architectures,
in both iso and jigdo formats
* a full set of "normal" CDs for all arches:
+ all as iso and jigdo for amd64, i386 and source
+ some as iso and jigdo for other arches, with the remaining as jigdo only
* two extra CDs for all arches (KDE and "light") in both iso and jigdo formats
* a full set of DVDs for all arches:
+ all as iso and jigdo for amd64, i386 and source
+ #1 as iso and jigdo for other arches, with the remaining as jigdo only
* a full set of BDs and D-L BDs for amd64, i386 and source:
+ all as jigdo only
The current wheezy d-i alpha release gives an idea for how big Debian
is getting here - there are 71 CDs in the full amd64 set (!), or 10
DVDs. It's very tempting to switch amd64, i386 and source to the same
partial-iso state as the other arches.
2. USB-targeted images
I've also tweaked DVD#1 of each set to fit in 4GB instead of the
normal 4.7GB, so that it fits on a 4GB USB stick to make it more
useful. We could quite readily produce (say) 2GB images specifically
designed for smaller USB sticks if enough people consider that to be
useful. I'm thinking that would be a specific single extra
image. Thoughts?
3. Which installer image(s) should we link to as preferred?
We're currently linking to the multi-arch amd64/i386 netinst CD from
the front of www.debian.org. I think that's still a good choice, but
I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
4. What to do with s390(x)
I'm about to ask this on their mailing list...
"You can't barbecue lettuce!" -- Ellie Crane
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Adam Borowski wrote:
>On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 05:04:16PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
>> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
>> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
>> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>>
>> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
>> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
>>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
>> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
>> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
>> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>>
>> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
>> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
>>
>> At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to
>> work acceptably with Wheezy.
>
>There is an easy solution: switch binary packages to xz compression.
>> work acceptably with Wheezy.
>
>
>amd64's CD 1 is reduced to 2/3 of its current size (data from June(?) 2010).
OK. That'll help in the short term, I guess. But I've no idea how long
it will take for package builds to make a dent on this organically
(i.e. without a deliberate rebuild effort). I'm expecting that we'll
still struggle to get a *good* Gnome or KDE installation from a single
CD regardless. We've managed a minimal set in the past, but I'd rather
we give a good impression with a basic Debian installation than come
up with something that *only* just fits.
Related, I'm also pondering about:
1. Which installer images it makes sense to provide for wheezy
We currently provide a huge set of different images:
* business card and netinst images for (almost) all architectures,
in both iso and jigdo formats
* a full set of "normal" CDs for all arches:
+ all as iso and jigdo for amd64, i386 and source
+ some as iso and jigdo for other arches, with the remaining as jigdo only
* two extra CDs for all arches (KDE and "light") in both iso and jigdo formats
* a full set of DVDs for all arches:
+ all as iso and jigdo for amd64, i386 and source
+ #1 as iso and jigdo for other arches, with the remaining as jigdo only
* a full set of BDs and D-L BDs for amd64, i386 and source:
+ all as jigdo only
The current wheezy d-i alpha release gives an idea for how big Debian
is getting here - there are 71 CDs in the full amd64 set (!), or 10
DVDs. It's very tempting to switch amd64, i386 and source to the same
partial-iso state as the other arches.
2. USB-targeted images
I've also tweaked DVD#1 of each set to fit in 4GB instead of the
normal 4.7GB, so that it fits on a 4GB USB stick to make it more
useful. We could quite readily produce (say) 2GB images specifically
designed for smaller USB sticks if enough people consider that to be
useful. I'm thinking that would be a specific single extra
image. Thoughts?
3. Which installer image(s) should we link to as preferred?
We're currently linking to the multi-arch amd64/i386 netinst CD from
the front of www.debian.org. I think that's still a good choice, but
I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
4. What to do with s390(x)
I'm about to ask this on their mailing list...
"You can't barbecue lettuce!" -- Ellie Crane
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Wookey
May 15, 2012, 10:30:01 AM5/15/12
to
+++ Steve McIntyre [2012-05-15 13:38 +0100]:
the last several years. It must be 4 years since I used a CD or DVD.
Especially on dev boards (x86 or arm) that is usually the only medium
slot you have. I assume this is common.
And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
Only last night I tried to install current testing to an intel dev
board. I tried using unetbootin which is a great way of making the
USB-key install process less cryptic, but for some reason it failed to
get unstable images, and could only manage testing ones. (I'll check
that and file a bug tonight).
I think we could usefully focus on making the USB-stick/MMC card
experience simple as that covers an awful lot of modern use-cases. It
currently feels like a bit of a 'poor relation'.
That might mean recommending the use of Unetbootin (and making sure it
works), or providing complete say 2G and 4G images and some simple way
of burning them. Maybe a 'debianised' version of unetbootin that just
provides debian images and hides most of the gory details, but will
help stop you shooting yourself in the foot?
It looks to me like we have all the parts for that, it's just the
emphasis needs changing, or maybe even just the docs updating (I may
not be doing this the easiest way - it's not totally obvious from the
debian download page what to do - AIUI you have to read the install docs,
and understand to download the hd-media files (either the image gzip
or the files) and an iso from somewhere else and put it all on the
stick.)
> 3. Which installer image(s) should we link to as preferred?
>
> We're currently linking to the multi-arch amd64/i386 netinst CD from
> the front of www.debian.org. I think that's still a good choice, but
> I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
add a netinst USB image would be a good thing IMHO. Along with the
equivalent tool to a CDburner to make it painless. Maybe even make
netinst USB sticks the default over CDs? And try to hide the
'hd-media' name at least in initial download selection, because it is
geek-accurate, but rather confusing to a newcomer.
Wookey
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> [ re-adding CC to debian-cd and debian-boot ]
>
>
> 2. USB-targeted images
>
> I've also tweaked DVD#1 of each set to fit in 4GB instead of the
> normal 4.7GB, so that it fits on a 4GB USB stick to make it more
> useful. We could quite readily produce (say) 2GB images specifically
> designed for smaller USB sticks if enough people consider that to be
> useful. I'm thinking that would be a specific single extra
> image. Thoughts?
I have always installed from USB stick (or SD card) on everything for
>
> I've also tweaked DVD#1 of each set to fit in 4GB instead of the
> normal 4.7GB, so that it fits on a 4GB USB stick to make it more
> useful. We could quite readily produce (say) 2GB images specifically
> designed for smaller USB sticks if enough people consider that to be
> useful. I'm thinking that would be a specific single extra
> image. Thoughts?
the last several years. It must be 4 years since I used a CD or DVD.
Especially on dev boards (x86 or arm) that is usually the only medium
slot you have. I assume this is common.
And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
Only last night I tried to install current testing to an intel dev
board. I tried using unetbootin which is a great way of making the
USB-key install process less cryptic, but for some reason it failed to
get unstable images, and could only manage testing ones. (I'll check
that and file a bug tonight).
I think we could usefully focus on making the USB-stick/MMC card
experience simple as that covers an awful lot of modern use-cases. It
currently feels like a bit of a 'poor relation'.
That might mean recommending the use of Unetbootin (and making sure it
works), or providing complete say 2G and 4G images and some simple way
of burning them. Maybe a 'debianised' version of unetbootin that just
provides debian images and hides most of the gory details, but will
help stop you shooting yourself in the foot?
It looks to me like we have all the parts for that, it's just the
emphasis needs changing, or maybe even just the docs updating (I may
not be doing this the easiest way - it's not totally obvious from the
debian download page what to do - AIUI you have to read the install docs,
and understand to download the hd-media files (either the image gzip
or the files) and an iso from somewhere else and put it all on the
stick.)
> 3. Which installer image(s) should we link to as preferred?
>
> We're currently linking to the multi-arch amd64/i386 netinst CD from
> the front of www.debian.org. I think that's still a good choice, but
> I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
equivalent tool to a CDburner to make it painless. Maybe even make
netinst USB sticks the default over CDs? And try to hide the
'hd-media' name at least in initial download selection, because it is
geek-accurate, but rather confusing to a newcomer.
Wookey
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Timo Juhani Lindfors
May 15, 2012, 10:40:02 AM5/15/12
to
Wookey <woo...@wookware.org> writes:
> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
You also need to have root access to some machine to create the USB
> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
media. This means you can't create the installation media at most
university or library machines unlike with CDs.
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Paul Wise
May 15, 2012, 10:40:02 AM5/15/12
to
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Wookey wrote:
> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
I thought HD-media was a thing of the past with the newish isohybrid
> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
stuff where you just cat the ISO to the device? Pretty sure thats what
I did for the last install I did. Fedora/RH folks recently added more
hacks to isohybrid to support booting on Macs:
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
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bye,
pabs
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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gregor herrmann
May 15, 2012, 12:20:01 PM5/15/12
to
On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:34:20 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
> I thought HD-media was a thing of the past with the newish isohybrid
> stuff where you just cat the ISO to the device? Pretty sure thats what
> I did for the last install I did.
Same here.
> > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
> > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
> > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
> I thought HD-media was a thing of the past with the newish isohybrid
> stuff where you just cat the ISO to the device? Pretty sure thats what
> I did for the last install I did.
My last install with an USB stick (2 months ago) must have been as
easy as dd'ing or cat'ing the ISO to a device since I don't remember
any details or even problems, and I'm quite sure I didn't hunt down
any additional files or used any non-standard tools.
(I think it was a testing image from February or something similar,
in case they are different .... Ah, I still have it,
debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso, downloaded on March 4th.)
Cheers,
gregor
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Thomas Schmitt
May 15, 2012, 12:30:02 PM5/15/12
to
Hi,
> Fedora/RH folks recently added more
> hacks to isohybrid to support booting on Macs:
> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
This is achieved by applying ISOLINUX program isohybrid from a recent
ISOLINYX version to the already produced ISO images. syslinux-4.05
should probably do.
It is a daring mix of MBR, Apple Partition Map, GPT, and El Torito.
It seems to be specific to i386 and amd54 architectures.
You need to provide a VFAT image for EFI, and a HFS+ image for Mac.
I have meanwhile documented it on byte level in
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~libburnia-team/libisofs/scdbackup/view/head:/doc/boot_sectors.txt#L398
(paragraph "SYSLINUX isohybrid for UEFI and x86-Mac")
xorriso will hopefully be able to do this trick together with jigdo
production, if the MBR template file stems from a suitable ISOLINUX
version. (It has to reserve its first 32 bytes for a mock-up of an APM
Block0.)
Implementation has begun but will last a bit longer because the
backup GPT at the end of the image does not yet fit into the
architecture of libisofs.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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> Fedora/RH folks recently added more
> hacks to isohybrid to support booting on Macs:
> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/11285.html
ISOLINYX version to the already produced ISO images. syslinux-4.05
should probably do.
It is a daring mix of MBR, Apple Partition Map, GPT, and El Torito.
It seems to be specific to i386 and amd54 architectures.
You need to provide a VFAT image for EFI, and a HFS+ image for Mac.
I have meanwhile documented it on byte level in
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~libburnia-team/libisofs/scdbackup/view/head:/doc/boot_sectors.txt#L398
(paragraph "SYSLINUX isohybrid for UEFI and x86-Mac")
xorriso will hopefully be able to do this trick together with jigdo
production, if the MBR template file stems from a suitable ISOLINUX
version. (It has to reserve its first 32 bytes for a mock-up of an APM
Block0.)
Implementation has begun but will last a bit longer because the
backup GPT at the end of the image does not yet fit into the
architecture of libisofs.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Steve McIntyre
May 15, 2012, 12:30:03 PM5/15/12
to
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 06:13:24PM +0200, gregor herrmann wrote:
>On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:34:20 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
>
>> > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
>> > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
>> > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
>> I thought HD-media was a thing of the past with the newish isohybrid
>> stuff where you just cat the ISO to the device? Pretty sure thats what
>> I did for the last install I did.
>
>Same here.
>
>My last install with an USB stick (2 months ago) must have been as
>easy as dd'ing or cat'ing the ISO to a device since I don't remember
>any details or even problems, and I'm quite sure I didn't hunt down
>any additional files or used any non-standard tools.
>
>(I think it was a testing image from February or something similar,
>in case they are different .... Ah, I still have it,
>debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso, downloaded on March 4th.)
Just checking with wookey on irc, he downloaded the image and read the
>On Tue, 15 May 2012 22:34:20 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
>
>> > And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
>> > have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
>> > put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
>> I thought HD-media was a thing of the past with the newish isohybrid
>> stuff where you just cat the ISO to the device? Pretty sure thats what
>> I did for the last install I did.
>
>Same here.
>
>My last install with an USB stick (2 months ago) must have been as
>easy as dd'ing or cat'ing the ISO to a device since I don't remember
>any details or even problems, and I'm quite sure I didn't hunt down
>any additional files or used any non-standard tools.
>
>(I think it was a testing image from February or something similar,
>in case they are different .... Ah, I still have it,
>debian-testing-amd64-netinst.iso, downloaded on March 4th.)
instructions
(http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en) but
skipped straight past section 4.3.1. Looks like we could do with a big
clear message "DO THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE SPECIAL NEEDS" to make it more
obvious. :-)
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Samuel Thibault
May 15, 2012, 1:50:02 PM5/15/12
to
Peter Samuelson, le Tue 15 May 2012 12:40:55 -0500, a écrit :
> > (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en)
>
> While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
> the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
> that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
> devices),
Except that cat is often aliased with the -v option, not a good idea :)
Also, the sudo issue alone made us switch to dd instead, see the svn
version of the manual.
> I think "cp" is even more straightforward.
Does cp accept that way since a long time?
Samuel
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> > (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en)
>
> While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
> the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
> that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
> devices),
Except that cat is often aliased with the -v option, not a good idea :)
Also, the sudo issue alone made us switch to dd instead, see the svn
version of the manual.
> I think "cp" is even more straightforward.
Does cp accept that way since a long time?
Samuel
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Peter Samuelson
May 15, 2012, 1:50:01 PM5/15/12
to
[Steve McIntyre]
> (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en)
While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
devices), I think "cp" is even more straightforward. Bonus: you can
While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
easily run it with sudo. ("sudo cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" does not
do what a novice might think.)
Though I suppose it might be annoying to those who feel the need for
alias cp='cp -i' in .bashrc. But hey, it's their choice to be annoyed
by things like this. (:
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Ben Armstrong
May 15, 2012, 1:50:02 PM5/15/12
to
On 05/15/2012 02:18 PM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of
> cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX
> for X = valuable hard disk.
I've wondered about that, too, when working on the relevant section of
the Debian Live Manual.
> Maybe one should advise people to first read a few MB from the stick
> and watch it blinking, before one uses that address for writing
>
> dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null bs=1M count=100
Interesting approach.
As for me, I just never write to a USB key as root unless I'm absolutely
sure I need to. (Yes, I could still trash the wrong USB attached
storage, but that's likely less catastrophic than what I could
accomplish as the superuser.) What I wonder, though, is if it is
universally true that ordinary users will always have write access to a
USB key they've just inserted. Under what circumstances will they not?
Keep in mind, the user may very well be writing the USB from some
non-Debian system.
Ben
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> I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of
> cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX
> for X = valuable hard disk.
I've wondered about that, too, when working on the relevant section of
the Debian Live Manual.
> Maybe one should advise people to first read a few MB from the stick
> and watch it blinking, before one uses that address for writing
>
> dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null bs=1M count=100
Interesting approach.
As for me, I just never write to a USB key as root unless I'm absolutely
sure I need to. (Yes, I could still trash the wrong USB attached
storage, but that's likely less catastrophic than what I could
accomplish as the superuser.) What I wonder, though, is if it is
universally true that ordinary users will always have write access to a
USB key they've just inserted. Under what circumstances will they not?
Keep in mind, the user may very well be writing the USB from some
non-Debian system.
Ben
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Timo Juhani Lindfors
May 15, 2012, 2:10:03 PM5/15/12
to
Ben Armstrong <sy...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> writes:
> accomplish as the superuser.) What I wonder, though, is if it is
> universally true that ordinary users will always have write access to a
> USB key they've just inserted. Under what circumstances will they not?
At least in default debian and ubuntu systems they don't have such write
> accomplish as the superuser.) What I wonder, though, is if it is
> universally true that ordinary users will always have write access to a
> USB key they've just inserted. Under what circumstances will they not?
access.
ubuntu uses the usb-creator package to provide a dbus api that allows
normal users to create usb installation media. (It carefully checks that
you can not write to the internal hard disk).
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Peter Samuelson
May 15, 2012, 7:10:02 PM5/15/12
to
[Samuel Thibault]
> > I think "cp" is even more straightforward.
>
> Does cp accept that way since a long time?
I'm not sure, but I've been using things like "cp boot.img /dev/fd0"
>
> Does cp accept that way since a long time?
for probably 10 or 15 years on various Linux and Unix systems. (The
fact that I referred to a floppy drive may give some idea of how
long....)
I am not sure where the idea came from that reading or writing block
devices always requires 'dd', but if I were to guess, I'd say we can
blame tape drives (which aren't even block devices, but char devices).
As I recall, you can choose the block size when you format or write a
tape, and maybe there are ancient systems out there in which userspace
must be explicit when reading and writing them. (Normally, though, I
_think_ you just tell the kernel tape driver the right parameters
using, e.g. 'mt', then let it handle writing full blocks.)
Peter
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Steve McIntyre
May 15, 2012, 7:30:01 PM5/15/12
to
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:40:55PM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>
>[Steve McIntyre]
>> (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en)
>
>While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
>the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
>that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
>devices), I think "cp" is even more straightforward. Bonus: you can
>easily run it with sudo. ("sudo cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" does not
>do what a novice might think.)
You *can* do that, yes. The major win with dd onto a raw device is
>
>[Steve McIntyre]
>> (http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en)
>
>While it is refreshing to see "cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" instead of
>the usual dd nonsense (it seems there's an extremely widespread myth
>that you need to use dd any time you're reading or writing block
>devices), I think "cp" is even more straightforward. Bonus: you can
>easily run it with sudo. ("sudo cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX" does not
>do what a novice might think.)
that you can specify the block size. For most USB sticks, using a
block size of 4MB or so is going to be *much* faster than using the
default for dd (512 bytes) or cp (10 KB IIRC). cat using the shell
redirection is often going to be using a small size (1 page?).
Google-bait: http://www.debian.org/CD/free-linux-cd
Debian does NOT ship free CDs. Please do NOT contact the mailing
lists asking us to send them to you.
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Peter Samuelson
May 15, 2012, 10:10:02 PM5/15/12
to
[Steve McIntyre]
> The major win with dd onto a raw device is that you can specify the
> block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is
> going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes)
> or cp (10 KB IIRC).
That seemed a little fishy to me, since none of the above commands do
> block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is
> going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes)
> or cp (10 KB IIRC).
any fsync by default, so I just benched it locally.
Writing a 50 MB businesscard image to a USB flash drive on my system
(numbers are MB/s):
dd bs=512 1.77 1.78 1.77
dd bs=1024 1.79 1.76 1.77
dd bs=2048 1.77 1.78 1.78
dd bs=4096 2.54 2.53 2.51
dd bs=8192 2.48 2.50 2.55
dd bs=4194304 2.50 2.50 2.54
cp 2.49 2.47 2.48
So it appears that if you aren't going to specify a bs= parameter here,
there's no point in using dd, unless you just happen to think its
command line syntax is particularly charming. And even if you do
specify bs=, you'll only barely beat cp.
For completeness, the same test writing a small file (1 MB),
unsurprisingly, is quite inconclusive:
dd bs=512 1.44 1.04 0.98
dd bs=1024 1.00 1.06 1.04
dd bs=2048 0.82 1.04 1.05
dd bs=4096 1.30 1.31 1.35
dd bs=8192 1.06 1.52 1.56
dd bs=4194304 1.19 1.28 1.27
cp 1.14 1.29 1.27
--
Peter
#!/bin/sh
infile=/tmp/debian-6.0.2.1-amd64-businesscard.iso
MB=$(stat -c'scale=2; %s/1048576' $infile | bc)
outfile=/dev/sdd
test_start () {
label=$1
sudo sysctl vm.drop_caches=1 > /dev/null # probably not really needed
t0=$(date +%s.%N)
}
test_end () {
sync
echo "$label : $(echo "scale=2; $MB / ($(date +'%s.%N') - $t0)" | bc) MB/s"
}
for n in $(seq 1 3); do
for sz in 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 $((1024*4096)); do
test_start bs=$sz
dd bs=$sz if=$infile of=$outfile 2> /dev/null
test_end
done
test_start cp
cp $infile $outfile
test_end
done
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Timo Juhani Lindfors
May 16, 2012, 5:20:01 AM5/16/12
to
Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
> You mean that they allow you to burn a CD but not write to a USB
> stick?
Yes, I understood this was the default. If you put users to floppy group
then remote users can read usb sticks of local users.
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> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
> You mean that they allow you to burn a CD but not write to a USB
> stick?
Yes, I understood this was the default. If you put users to floppy group
then remote users can read usb sticks of local users.
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Bjørn Mork
May 16, 2012, 5:30:02 AM5/16/12
to
Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.l...@iki.fi> writes:
> Wookey <woo...@wookware.org> writes:
>> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
>> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
>> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
>
> You also need to have root access to some machine to create the USB
> media.
> Wookey <woo...@wookware.org> writes:
>> And the USB-stick process is not as simple as it might be because you
>> have to find the HD-media files and then _also_ find an iso image to
>> put on. It's no wonder newbs are still downloading CD/DVD images.
>
> You also need to have root access to some machine to create the USB
> media.
No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
# default permissions for block devices
the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
SUBSYSTEM=="block", GROUP="disk"
SUBSYSTEM=="block", ATTRS{removable}=="1", GROUP="floppy"
> This means you can't create the installation media at most
> university or library machines unlike with CDs.
You mean that they allow you to burn a CD but not write to a USB stick?
Sounds like they have a support problem which I don't think Debian can
solve for them.
Bjørn
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Bjørn Mork
May 16, 2012, 6:50:01 AM5/16/12
to
Timo Juhani Lindfors <timo.l...@iki.fi> writes:
> Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
>> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
>> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
>
> Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
No, that decision should be left to the adminstrator. The point was
>> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
>> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
>
> Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
that you don't need to be root, and you probably never should be when
doing something like that (to prevent being only one typo away from
disaster).
>> You mean that they allow you to burn a CD but not write to a USB
>> stick?
>
> Yes, I understood this was the default. If you put users to floppy group
> then remote users can read usb sticks of local users.
if that is a consideration then they need some system to tie the rights
to console access. I believe ConsoleKit and the replacement
systemd-loginctl attempts to solve such problems.
Bjørn
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Ben Armstrong
May 16, 2012, 7:00:02 AM5/16/12
to
On 05/16/2012 06:10 AM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
>> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
>> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
>
> Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
$ debconf-show user-setup
> Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
>> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
>> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
>
> Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
...
passwd/user-default-groups: audio cdrom dip floppy video plugdev
netdev powerdev scanner bluetooth
...
At least the initial user created by user-setup at install time will be
in this group. That would cover everyone with self-administrated
systems, which I would hazard a guess would be most of our audience. So
while we can't assume every user has access, we could at least recommend
in the doc that the command be executed as an ordinary user "where
possible" to avoid accidental harm.
Ben
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Ferenc Wagner
May 16, 2012, 7:20:01 AM5/16/12
to
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdb...@gmx.net> writes:
> I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of
> cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX
> for X = valuable hard disk.
What about recommending /dev/disk/by-id/usb-X instead?
> I am a bit scared by the catastrophic potential of
> cat debian.iso > /dev/sdX
> for X = valuable hard disk.
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Neil Williams
May 16, 2012, 7:20:01 AM5/16/12
to
On Wed, 16 May 2012 07:53:55 -0300
Ben Armstrong <sy...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> wrote:
> On 05/16/2012 06:10 AM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> > Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
> >> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> >> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
> >
> > Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
>
> $ debconf-show user-setup
... that listing isn't available on Squeeze ...
Ben Armstrong <sy...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca> wrote:
> On 05/16/2012 06:10 AM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> > Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
> >> No, you don't. On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> >> the "floppy" group. From /lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules :
> >
> > Yeah but you are not a member of that group by default surely?
>
> $ debconf-show user-setup
If we're to document this, it would need to be as-per Squeeze.
> passwd/user-default-groups: audio cdrom dip floppy video plugdev
> netdev powerdev scanner bluetooth
list above are).
dialout cdrom floppy sudo audio dip video plugdev netdev bluetooth
dialout and sudo explicitly added, rest are the defaults IIRC.
> At least the initial user created by user-setup at install time will be
> in this group. That would cover everyone with self-administrated
> systems, which I would hazard a guess would be most of our audience. So
> while we can't assume every user has access, we could at least recommend
> in the doc that the command be executed as an ordinary user "where
> possible" to avoid accidental harm.
Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
Timo Juhani Lindfors
May 16, 2012, 7:40:02 AM5/16/12
to
Bjørn Mork <bj...@mork.no> writes:
> I fail to see how burning to a local user's CD is any better, but yes,
> if that is a consideration then they need some system to tie the rights
> to console access. I believe ConsoleKit and the replacement
> systemd-loginctl attempts to solve such problems.
Yes, I believe usb-creator package in ubuntu does exactly this, it lets
> I fail to see how burning to a local user's CD is any better, but yes,
> if that is a consideration then they need some system to tie the rights
> to console access. I believe ConsoleKit and the replacement
> systemd-loginctl attempts to solve such problems.
local users create USB installation media. Unfortunately even that is by
default only allowed for admins.
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Wookey
May 16, 2012, 7:50:02 AM5/16/12
to
+++ Timo Juhani Lindfors [2012-05-15 21:01 +0300]:
Yes, turns out I failed to read the instructions right, presumably due
to thinking I knew how this worked (i.e. you can't just put an iso
stright onto a USB stick, and you need 'hd-media' for USB sticks).
I'm glad to see that this has got significantly simpler.
> ubuntu uses the usb-creator package to provide a dbus api that allows
> normal users to create usb installation media. (It carefully checks that
> you can not write to the internal hard disk).
I think this is what most inexpert users would like to see - a
reasonably idiot-proof GUI tool for downloading an installer image and
putting it on the USB stick for them.
usb-creator is in ubuntu but not Debian for no good reason. It has
already had Debian support added.
One of the uploaders, and the person who added the Debian support is a
DD: Dmitrijs Ledkovs. Dmitri - is there any reason not to just upload
this to Debian? I see a couple of places in the UI where it says
'Ubuntu' and it would be good if it got a bit cleverer and put in the
appropriate string with dpkg-vendor, as it already does for the logo
files. I also fixed up the build so it skips the not-present
dh-translations on Debian, and otherwise modified the deps for Debian.
I'll do some testing tonight when I have USB sticks to hand.
There are probably quite a few useful utilities like this in Ubuntu
universe that should get uploaded.
Wookey
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Yes, turns out I failed to read the instructions right, presumably due
to thinking I knew how this worked (i.e. you can't just put an iso
stright onto a USB stick, and you need 'hd-media' for USB sticks).
I'm glad to see that this has got significantly simpler.
> ubuntu uses the usb-creator package to provide a dbus api that allows
> normal users to create usb installation media. (It carefully checks that
> you can not write to the internal hard disk).
reasonably idiot-proof GUI tool for downloading an installer image and
putting it on the USB stick for them.
usb-creator is in ubuntu but not Debian for no good reason. It has
already had Debian support added.
One of the uploaders, and the person who added the Debian support is a
DD: Dmitrijs Ledkovs. Dmitri - is there any reason not to just upload
this to Debian? I see a couple of places in the UI where it says
'Ubuntu' and it would be good if it got a bit cleverer and put in the
appropriate string with dpkg-vendor, as it already does for the logo
files. I also fixed up the build so it skips the not-present
dh-translations on Debian, and otherwise modified the deps for Debian.
I'll do some testing tonight when I have USB sticks to hand.
There are probably quite a few useful utilities like this in Ubuntu
universe that should get uploaded.
Wookey
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Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
May 16, 2012, 10:20:02 AM5/16/12
to
On Wed, 16 May 2012, Wookey wrote:
> this to Debian? I see a couple of places in the UI where it says
> 'Ubuntu' and it would be good if it got a bit cleverer and put in the
If Ubuntu sponsored the creation of usb-creator, we can package it that
> this to Debian? I see a couple of places in the UI where it says
> 'Ubuntu' and it would be good if it got a bit cleverer and put in the
way just fine, as long as the trademark license for "Ubuntu" allows us
to do that.
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them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
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Mehdi Dogguy
May 16, 2012, 10:30:02 AM5/16/12
to
On 16/05/12 13:41, Wookey wrote:
> is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian?
There are ITPs filed for it:
> is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian?
- http://bugs.debian.org/582884
- http://bugs.debian.org/576359
Regards,
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Thomas Schmitt
May 16, 2012, 12:00:02 PM5/16/12
to
Hi,
Bj�rn Mork <bj...@mork.no> wrote:
> On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> the "floppy" group.
I understand that the instructions about creating a Debian installation
medium shall be usable on as many systems as possible, not only on
already installed Debian systems.
USB stick on a pre-udev SuSE:
brw-r----- 1 root disk 8, 32 2012-05-15 20:18 /dev/sdb
USB stick on FreeBSD 8:
crw-rw-r-- 1 root floppy 0, 124 May 15 20:13 /dev/da0
On Solaris it seems to be:
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 60 Jun 8 2010 /dev/dsk/c5t0d0p0 -> ../../devices/pci@0,0/pci1458,5004@13,2/storage@4/disk@0,0:q
br-------- 1 root root 83, 272 Jun 8 2010 /devices/pci@0,0/pci1458,5004@13,2/storage@4/disk@0,0:q
I fail to find a device file with any w-permission in the c5t0d0 family of
/dev/dsk or /dev/rdsk. (When i was younger, Solaris looked more like Unix.)
There is a script
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/raw/livemedia/livemedia/usbcopy
which finds the USB stick and writes some data onto the stick while issueing
several error messages.
But the stick afterwards does not bear the data which i gave as input
"image" to the script.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
Bj�rn Mork <bj...@mork.no> wrote:
> On a default Debian system you need to be a member of
> the "floppy" group.
medium shall be usable on as many systems as possible, not only on
already installed Debian systems.
USB stick on a pre-udev SuSE:
brw-r----- 1 root disk 8, 32 2012-05-15 20:18 /dev/sdb
USB stick on FreeBSD 8:
crw-rw-r-- 1 root floppy 0, 124 May 15 20:13 /dev/da0
On Solaris it seems to be:
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 60 Jun 8 2010 /dev/dsk/c5t0d0p0 -> ../../devices/pci@0,0/pci1458,5004@13,2/storage@4/disk@0,0:q
br-------- 1 root root 83, 272 Jun 8 2010 /devices/pci@0,0/pci1458,5004@13,2/storage@4/disk@0,0:q
I fail to find a device file with any w-permission in the c5t0d0 family of
/dev/dsk or /dev/rdsk. (When i was younger, Solaris looked more like Unix.)
There is a script
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/raw/livemedia/livemedia/usbcopy
which finds the USB stick and writes some data onto the stick while issueing
several error messages.
But the stick afterwards does not bear the data which i gave as input
"image" to the script.
Have a nice day :)
Thomas
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Steve McIntyre
May 16, 2012, 12:00:03 PM5/16/12
to
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 09:00:29PM -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>[Steve McIntyre]
>> The major win with dd onto a raw device is that you can specify the
>> block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is
>> going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes)
>> or cp (10 KB IIRC).
>
>That seemed a little fishy to me, since none of the above commands do
>any fsync by default, so I just benched it locally.
>
>Writing a 50 MB businesscard image to a USB flash drive on my system
>(numbers are MB/s):
>
> dd bs=512 1.77 1.78 1.77
> dd bs=1024 1.79 1.76 1.77
> dd bs=2048 1.77 1.78 1.78
> dd bs=4096 2.54 2.53 2.51
> dd bs=8192 2.48 2.50 2.55
> dd bs=4194304 2.50 2.50 2.54
> cp 2.49 2.47 2.48
>
>So it appears that if you aren't going to specify a bs= parameter here,
>there's no point in using dd, unless you just happen to think its
>command line syntax is particularly charming. And even if you do
>specify bs=, you'll only barely beat cp.
You're not measuring the time taken to sync to the flash drive either,
>[Steve McIntyre]
>> The major win with dd onto a raw device is that you can specify the
>> block size. For most USB sticks, using a block size of 4MB or so is
>> going to be *much* faster than using the default for dd (512 bytes)
>> or cp (10 KB IIRC).
>
>That seemed a little fishy to me, since none of the above commands do
>any fsync by default, so I just benched it locally.
>
>Writing a 50 MB businesscard image to a USB flash drive on my system
>(numbers are MB/s):
>
> dd bs=512 1.77 1.78 1.77
> dd bs=1024 1.79 1.76 1.77
> dd bs=2048 1.77 1.78 1.78
> dd bs=4096 2.54 2.53 2.51
> dd bs=8192 2.48 2.50 2.55
> dd bs=4194304 2.50 2.50 2.54
> cp 2.49 2.47 2.48
>
>So it appears that if you aren't going to specify a bs= parameter here,
>there's no point in using dd, unless you just happen to think its
>command line syntax is particularly charming. And even if you do
>specify bs=, you'll only barely beat cp.
so all you're going to be seeing is the speed of writing to
cache. I've done lots of work with USB flash and MMC/SD cards over the
last few years, and the best results are typically achieved using "dd
bs=4M oflag=sync". That way, you'll normally get nicely-aligned date
writes big enough to cover the internal flash page size and remove the
horrendous effects of read-modify-write cycles.
Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky,
Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...
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Peter Samuelson
May 16, 2012, 6:10:01 PM5/16/12
to
[Steve McIntyre]
> You're not measuring the time taken to sync to the flash drive
> either, so all you're going to be seeing is the speed of writing to
> cache.
Huh, I figured the 'sync' call at the end of each test run covered
> either, so all you're going to be seeing is the speed of writing to
> cache.
that.
> I've done lots of work with USB flash and MMC/SD cards over the last
> few years, and the best results are typically achieved using "dd
> bs=4M oflag=sync". That way, you'll normally get nicely-aligned date
> writes big enough to cover the internal flash page size and remove
> the horrendous effects of read-modify-write cycles.
(The fact that it has a USB interface, rather than something closer to
the flash controller, probably makes a difference.)
Anyway, I've never been against people recommending things like
"dd bs=4M oflag=sync" when writing to disk media. My pet peeve is when
people recommend "dd" but without any options other than if= and of=.
It is clear that many such people don't have a clue _why_ they use dd,
except an irrational, dare I say cargo-cult, aversion to cp with block
devices.
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Holger Wansing
May 17, 2012, 5:00:02 PM5/17/12
to
Hi,
Steve McIntyre <st...@einval.com> wrote:
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>
> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
> * XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * base system only from netinst CD
FYI: With the alpha1 images, it is not possible, to do an installation
from only one CD image and without internet access, getting an X system
as result.
When using Alpha1 Binary-CD #1
Alpha1 KDE CD
Alpha1 xfce-lxde CD
and, as said before, having no internet access while installing, you are
only provided the "Standard system tools" task, no "Desktop environment"
is provided.
See #673200.
If you knew this already, sorry for the noise.
Holger
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Steve McIntyre <st...@einval.com> wrote:
> Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying
> to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what
> we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of
> supporting the following single-CD installations:
>
> * Gnome desktop from CD#1
> * KDE desktop from "KDE CD#1"
> * XFCE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * LXDE desktop from "light CD#1"
> * base system only from netinst CD
FYI: With the alpha1 images, it is not possible, to do an installation
from only one CD image and without internet access, getting an X system
as result.
When using Alpha1 Binary-CD #1
Alpha1 KDE CD
Alpha1 xfce-lxde CD
and, as said before, having no internet access while installing, you are
only provided the "Standard system tools" task, no "Desktop environment"
is provided.
See #673200.
If you knew this already, sorry for the noise.
Holger
--
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Powered by Sylpheed 3.0.2 under
Debian GNU / / _ _ _ _ _ __ __
/ /__ / / / \// //_// \ \/ /
/____/ /_/ /_/\/ /___/ /_/\_\ 6.0 / Squeeze.
Registered LinuxUser #311290 - http://counter.li.org/
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Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120517224902...@wansing-online.de
Wookey
May 18, 2012, 8:20:02 AM5/18/12
to
+++ Mehdi Dogguy [2012-05-16 16:24 +0200]:
It turns out that there is a problem preventing upload. The rather
generic name 'usb-creator' was objected-to and a request made to
change it to 'startup-disk-creator' (The name the app shows).
Upload seems to be stalled on changing the name of the launchpad
project to give matching source and binary names. This seems
well-meaning but has the unfortunate effect that nothign has happened
for a year, despite several people expressing an interst in uploading.
I also tested it with a debian installer image and found that it is
bust due to a load of ugly code dealing with the syslinux transition
from 2.3x to 2.4x around Ubuntu 10.04->10.10 (generating old images
whilst running on a new machine, and vice versa, different package and
different syntax). It blows up on debian due to 'GNU/Linux' not being
a valid version. As we don't even have syslinux-legacy in Debian all
this mess should probably just be thrown away.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usb-creator/+bug/1000527
My python-foo wasn't up to actually fixing it myself. Nor do I know
how important it is to keep this sort of old-release compatibility
(how old?).
Anyone with the enthusiasm to fix the upstream-renaming thing, or this
code (not hard, just fiddly) could get this into Debian promptly I
think.
Wookey
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Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120518121...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
> On 16/05/12 13:41, Wookey wrote:
> >is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian?
>
> There are ITPs filed for it:
> - http://bugs.debian.org/582884
> - http://bugs.debian.org/576359
Yes. I discovered that when I went to file an ITP :-)
> >is there any reason not to just upload this to Debian?
>
> There are ITPs filed for it:
> - http://bugs.debian.org/582884
> - http://bugs.debian.org/576359
It turns out that there is a problem preventing upload. The rather
generic name 'usb-creator' was objected-to and a request made to
change it to 'startup-disk-creator' (The name the app shows).
Upload seems to be stalled on changing the name of the launchpad
project to give matching source and binary names. This seems
well-meaning but has the unfortunate effect that nothign has happened
for a year, despite several people expressing an interst in uploading.
I also tested it with a debian installer image and found that it is
bust due to a load of ugly code dealing with the syslinux transition
from 2.3x to 2.4x around Ubuntu 10.04->10.10 (generating old images
whilst running on a new machine, and vice versa, different package and
different syntax). It blows up on debian due to 'GNU/Linux' not being
a valid version. As we don't even have syslinux-legacy in Debian all
this mess should probably just be thrown away.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usb-creator/+bug/1000527
My python-foo wasn't up to actually fixing it myself. Nor do I know
how important it is to keep this sort of old-release compatibility
(how old?).
Anyone with the enthusiasm to fix the upstream-renaming thing, or this
code (not hard, just fiddly) could get this into Debian promptly I
think.
Wookey
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Joey Hess
May 18, 2012, 1:00:05 PM5/18/12
to
While this has been an interesting thread, it may be predicated on a
false premise. I examined the latest weekly CD build, and the reason no
desktop tasks at all (even lxde or xfce) appear on their respective CDs
is because debian-cd is simply not including tasksel's new task-*
packages, at all.
The packages on the CD seem fairly random, including things not in any
task like wmaker, alien, and, on the lxde+xfce CD, lots of KDE, but no
ldxe or xfce.
Even DVD #1 seems broken, containing task-desktop, but not
task-gnome-desktop. I'm sure gnome still fits on a DVD.
Seems likely that things are badly broken in debian-cd's task handling.
Likely related to tasksel's new task-* packages.
The way debian-cd needs to handle the new task packages is this:
* Put task-gnome-desktop on CD#1, task-kde-dekstop on KDE CD #1, etc.
(No need to use /usr/share/tasksel/descs/debian-tasks.desc anymore.)
* Try to include at all Recommends of task-* packages, not only their
dependencies, as this is used to pull in the majority of packages for
tasks. Do this even when normal Recommends inclusion is disabled.
* If space is tight, drop some of the task-* Recommends. And, since
this needs to be special cased anyway, it would be nice to have an
option to abort the build, and/or warn if they don't fully fit.
--
see shy jo
false premise. I examined the latest weekly CD build, and the reason no
desktop tasks at all (even lxde or xfce) appear on their respective CDs
is because debian-cd is simply not including tasksel's new task-*
packages, at all.
The packages on the CD seem fairly random, including things not in any
task like wmaker, alien, and, on the lxde+xfce CD, lots of KDE, but no
ldxe or xfce.
Even DVD #1 seems broken, containing task-desktop, but not
task-gnome-desktop. I'm sure gnome still fits on a DVD.
Seems likely that things are badly broken in debian-cd's task handling.
Likely related to tasksel's new task-* packages.
The way debian-cd needs to handle the new task packages is this:
* Put task-gnome-desktop on CD#1, task-kde-dekstop on KDE CD #1, etc.
(No need to use /usr/share/tasksel/descs/debian-tasks.desc anymore.)
* Try to include at all Recommends of task-* packages, not only their
dependencies, as this is used to pull in the majority of packages for
tasks. Do this even when normal Recommends inclusion is disabled.
* If space is tight, drop some of the task-* Recommends. And, since
this needs to be special cased anyway, it would be nice to have an
option to abort the build, and/or warn if they don't fully fit.
--
see shy jo
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