Inappropriate use of Debian logo.
Sam McLeod
Nowhere does the business mention Debian and when I sent the owner an email informing him of the misuse and linking him to debian.org/logos - he claimed he created the logo from scratch:
(Please excuse his bad English, but it's best I quote word-for-word)
"The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
Website:
www.legendpc.co.nz
Screenshot:
http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
--
-Sam McLeod.
Timo Juhani Lindfors
> FYI - A computer shop has taken the Debian logo and used it for his
> business.
> Nowhere does the business mention Debian and when I sent the owner an email
> informing him of the misuse and linking him to debian.org/logos - he claimed
> he created the logo from scratch:
> (Please excuse his bad English, but it's best I quote word-for-word)
>
> "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
Maybe both logos were indeed created using the same tool and that's
why the result looks identical?
> Screenshot:
> http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
Re "Stolen": Copyright infridgement and theft are both a problem but
should not be confused.
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Alessandro Rubini
> business.
Thank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
> [...]
> "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
[which, may I say, was quite a naive choice for such an important distro]
/alessandro
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Sam McLeod
I guess this one is case closed!
Sam.
> FYI - A computer shop has taken the Debian logo and used it for hisThank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
> business.
> [...]
> "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined itUnfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
[which, may I say, was quite a naive choice for such an important distro]
/alessandro
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Francesco Poli
> FYI - A computer shop has taken the Debian logo and used it for his
> business.
> Nowhere does the business mention Debian and when I sent the owner an email
> informing him of the misuse and linking him to debian.org/logos - he claimed
> he created the logo from scratch
[...]
Wow, the swirl in their logo
http://www.legendpc.co.nz/images/template/layouts/tpl_1150/images/header.jpg
seems to be really identical to the Debian Open Use Logo
http://www.debian.org/logos/openlogo-nd.svg
except for the color, of course.
It *may* of course be true that they created their logo from
scratch, without deriving it from the Debian logo, as others have
already discussed in this same thread.
On the other hand, it *could* be false...
Anyway, please note that the Debian Open Use Logo without “Debian”
http://www.debian.org/logos/openlogo-nd.svg
(DOUL-nd, from now on) is released under the terms of the Expat
license, as specified on http://www.debian.org/logos/
Hence, the issue (*as long as* there is actually an issue!) looks like
a copyright infringement problem: I am under the impression that
legendpc.co.nz should have included the SPI copyright notice and the
permission notice (that is to say, the text of the Expat license), thus
acknowledging that their logo has been derived from the DOUL-nd.
If they did so, I would say that they would be in compliance with the
license of the DOUL-nd...
Once more, *as long as* they actually derived their logo from the
DOUL-nd...
I think that maybe you could get in touch with SPI, Inc. and/or with
the DPL about this *possible* copyright license violation.
Just to be clear: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, my
analysis could of course be wrong or based on incomplete data.
Anyone who knows better is encouraged to speak up and correct me.
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Ben Finney
> > [...] "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software,
> > we desgined it from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give
> > us a call."
>
> Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
Right. But that may not matter, since (unlike copyright) the derivation
of an image is not AFAIK relevant for trademark violation; what matters
is whether the image is confusingly similar to an existing trademark.
> This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>
> [which, may I say, was quite a naive choice for such an important
> distro]
Yes, it would have been better to present an image that wasn't so
trivially duplicated by independent users of that image program. But
it's a burden to be borne now.
--
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`\ almost all standards of accountability should be dismantled |
_o__) once and for all.” —Daniel Dennett, 2010-01-12 |
Ben Finney
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Paul Wise
> Alessandro Rubini <rub...@arcana.linux.it> writes:
>> This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
>> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>>
>> [which, may I say, was quite a naive choice for such an important
>> distro]
>
> Yes, it would have been better to present an image that wasn't so
> trivially duplicated by independent users of that image program.
Indeed.
> But it's a burden to be borne now.
I don't really agree, we can have another logo competition. These days
we have several artists involved with Debian so we might get a great
logo.
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pabs
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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Ben Finney
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Ben Finney <ben+d...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > But it's a burden to be borne now.
>
> I don't really agree, we can have another logo competition. These days
> we have several artists involved with Debian so we might get a great
> logo.
I agree with the latter; the software submitted to Debian has grown to
include a lot of non-program software of excellent quality, including
images from talented pixel-slingers.
But getting submissions of good logos wasn't my concern.
My reason for seeing the current logo as difficult to change is that I
am doubtful the Debian project would look favourably on a call for
choosing a new logo, especially in light of the seemingly interminable
and painful process that led to choosing the current one.
But that pessimism could well be unfounded; perhaps the experience of
that process has taught us something more constructive than “avoid doing
anything like that again”. Feel free to rally the appropriate people for
changing the logo if you think it can be done.
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Ben Finney
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Josselin Mouette
> > http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
>
> Thank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
>
> > [...]
> > "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> > from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
>
> Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
This is, again, *completely irrelevant*.
I can reproduce the GAP logo in 3 clicks in Inkscape. Does it mean I can
use it for my own clothing shop? NO, of course.
A trademark is a trademark. If we don’t enforce it, we lose it.
I hope this time, for such blatant violation, SPI takes action.
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Steve McIntyre
>On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Ben Finney <ben+d...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Alessandro Rubini <rub...@arcana.linux.it> writes:
>>> This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
>>> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>>>
>>> [which, may I say, was quite a naive choice for such an important
>>> distro]
>>
>> Yes, it would have been better to present an image that wasn't so
>> trivially duplicated by independent users of that image program.
>
>Indeed.
>
>> But it's a burden to be borne now.
>
>I don't really agree, we can have another logo competition. These days
>we have several artists involved with Debian so we might get a great
>logo.
Please God, no. It was painful enough the last time we had a
competition for the logo, and since then we've got much bigger and
have more developers, users, websites, derivatives, merchandise, ...
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Josselin Mouette
> Le dimanche 28 novembre 2010 à 10:36 +0100, Alessandro Rubini a écrit :
> > > http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
> >
> > Thank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
> >
> > > [...]
> > > "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> > > from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
> >
> > Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> > This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>
> This is, again, *completely irrelevant*.
>
> I can reproduce the GAP logo in 3 clicks in Inkscape. Does it mean I can
> use it for my own clothing shop? NO, of course.
>
> A trademark is a trademark. If we don’t enforce it, we lose it.
>
> I hope this time, for such blatant violation, SPI takes action.
Stefano just mentioned that it would be better to CC him if we want
something to be done to do something. So here we go.
Cheers,
--
.''`.
: :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know
`. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.”
`- -- J???rg Schilling
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Gerfried Fuchs
* Josselin Mouette <jo...@debian.org> [2010-11-29 11:23:28 CET]:
> Le dimanche 28 novembre 2010 à 10:36 +0100, Alessandro Rubini a écrit :
> > Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> > This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>
> This is, again, *completely irrelevant*.
It is, but ...
> I can reproduce the GAP logo in 3 clicks in Inkscape. Does it mean I can
> use it for my own clothing shop? NO, of course.
Because the GAP logo is a trademark?
> A trademark is a trademark. If we don’t enforce it, we lose it.
But the swirl is no trademark.
> I hope this time, for such blatant violation, SPI takes action.
Actually SPI already had taken actions a while ago, and changed the
license terms for the swirl. Please be reminded of the text on
<http://www.debian.org/logos/>, read it again, and come to the same
conclusion: The trademark is *only* refering to the swirl with the
debian lettering attached. The swirl on itself is MIT/BSD licensed.
Granted, they didn't "include" the copyright notice and "this"
permission notice with the copy on their site, but that still isn't a
trademark issue.
The much I dislike the new license which leaves the swirl open to use
for everyone for everything they see fit, it's what was chosen for it.
Thanks,
Rhonda
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Stefano Zacchiroli
> Stefano just mentioned that it would be better to CC him if we want
> something to be done to do something. So here we go.
Thanks Joss for the Cc, as I'm not subscribed to -legal (so please keep
the Cc on replies).
I've read the thread and I do have some questions for the list. As far
as I can tell, there is no *trademark* violation going on here, simply
because the swirl is no trademark, what we have under trademark is the
Debian name [1]; consequently, we have licensed the logo that contains
the "debian" label under the DO(official)UL license [2]. However, if
the swirl used in the mentioned website is derived from the Debian
swirl, than we might have here a violation of the DO(pen)UL, about the
following:
The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be
included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
As far as I can tell (IANAL, and before contacting SPI lawyer) what we
should ask Legend PC is then to come into compliance of the license, by
mentioning copyright and permission notices.
Does that matches the analysis made by other -legal people?
If this is the case, do we have any precedent for a request like the
above ever been sent to others? (just to look for related material, not
because we need a precedent before going ahead, of course)
TIA,
Cheers.
[1] http://www.debian.org/trademark
[2] http://www.debian.org/logos/
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Arnaud Fouquaut
Josselin Mouette a écrit :
> A trademark is a trademark. If we don’t enforce it, we lose it.
Absolutly but I believe that the swirl is not include in the Debian's
trademark.
So, currently, the blue swirl could only be a copyright violation.
Bye,
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<http://arno.skamp.eu.org>
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Ken Arromdee
> As far as I can tell (IANAL, and before contacting SPI lawyer) what we
> should ask Legend PC is then to come into compliance of the license, by
> mentioning copyright and permission notices.
But copyright doesn't apply to independent invention, which he claims this
is, and which seems fairly reasonable. If he independently invented it we
only have a trademark claim; if we don't have a trademark claim we have none.
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Thibaut Paumard
Le 30/11/10 23:46, Ken Arromdee a écrit :
> But copyright doesn't apply to independent invention, which he claims this
> is, and which seems fairly reasonable. If he independently invented it we
> only have a trademark claim; if we don't have a trademark claim we have
> none.
IANAL, but as far as I know, a trademark doesn't need to be registered
to be enforceable: if you can prove that, due to the use of a logo
closely resembling ours, a customer could falsely believe that the
product sold is "Debian", and that this use of our unregistered
trademark is harmful to the customer and/or our business, we would have
a claim.
In this precise case:
- the logo is blue, not red;
- the company sells computer hardware and MS Windows, the word
"debian" is nowhere to be found on the site and linux is only mentionned
marginally.
Therefore, I don't believe that this use of "our" unregistered trademark
does any harm. Nobody in his right mind would imagine for more than a
second that this company is related to Debian. At least, I don't believe
that any court (in its right mind) would rule in our favor.
So we could sue the company for big money, big corporations would
perhaps do that, but actually suing a hardware reseller with such a
little claim would, in my opinion, do more harm to Debian than their
choice to use a blue swirl as a logo.
Best regards, Thibaut.
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Arthur Machlas
>> is, and which seems fairly reasonable. If he independently invented it we
>> only have a trademark claim; if we don't have a trademark claim we have
>> none
Have you actually looked at it? It's not similar. It's identical. Open
up both the debian swirl and this companies logo and overlay them.
There is not a single pixel that differs once they are scaled to the
same size. Can it really be "reasonable", in any sense of the word, to
believe that this company would independently invent an identical
logo, pixel for pixel, changing only the hue.
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Alessandro Rubini
> believe that this company would independently invent an identical
> logo, pixel for pixel, changing only the hue.
No, not reasonable. Unless both copied from the same swirl. Which seems
reasonable. See
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
and the associated image.
I think we need someone with a copy of photoshop (hopefully the same
version) to check where the swirl is and how much the debian one
differs.
/alessandro
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Arthur Machlas
<rub...@arcana.linux.it> wrote:
>> Can it really be "reasonable", in any sense of the word, to
>> believe that this company would independently invent an identical
>> logo, pixel for pixel, changing only the hue.
>
> No, not reasonable. Unless both copied from the same swirl. Which seems
> reasonable. See
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
> and the associated image.
Ah... that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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Mike Hommey
> The message from 2005 seems to indicate it was produced using Illustrator,
> not Photoshop.
>
> Attached is an image I just created using Illustrator 14.0.0, my goal was to
> recreate the Debian logo. I used the 'rough charcoal' brush with the swirl
> tool. I didn't create the original Debian logo but it is clear to me that
> the same technique was used by whoever created Debian's swirl logo. As you
> can see, my swirl shares all the attributes of the Debian logo, but is not
> identical: mine has small three dabs at the end of the swirl in the center
> and the two dabs on the left of the swirl on the outside. Mine is not
> identical because the swirl path in the Debian logo is not the default, mine
> had to be tweaked slightly to get as close as it is.
>
> There is no question in my mind that the blue logo under debate is a copy of
> the Debian logo, followed by a color change. There are too many degrees of
> freedom (beginning of the swirl path, brush thickness, etc).
You swirled it too much. Other than that, it's the same.
Mike
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Michael Cassano
What are the odds that the blue logo in question swirled their logo pixel-for-pixel the same as Debian's? I believe the odds are low given the couple minutes of work I put into using the tool (Illustrator).
Mike
Josselin Mouette
> > There is no question in my mind that the blue logo under debate is a copy of
> > the Debian logo, followed by a color change. There are too many degrees of
> > freedom (beginning of the swirl path, brush thickness, etc).
>
> You swirled it too much. Other than that, it's the same.
The point is that to get the exact result, pixel per pixel, you have to
use exactly the same settings, and there are too many of them for it to
be a coincidence.
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Mike Hommey
> Correct, I swirled it too much, that is my point.
>
> What are the odds that the blue logo in question swirled their logo
> pixel-for-pixel the same as Debian's? I believe the odds are low given the
> couple minutes of work I put into using the tool (Illustrator).
I'd say that pretty much depends on the actual values needed to get the
pixel-for-pixel same result (radius, decay, segments). If they're values
like 53 or 89, the odds are effectively low. If they're values like 50
or 80, the odds are much higher.
Mike
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Francesco Poli
[...]
> Thanks Joss for the Cc, as I'm not subscribed to -legal (so please keep
> the Cc on replies).
Done.
>
> I've read the thread and I do have some questions for the list. As far
> as I can tell, there is no *trademark* violation going on here, simply
> because the swirl is no trademark,
[...]
> However, if
> the swirl used in the mentioned website is derived from the Debian
> swirl, than we might have here a violation of the DO(pen)UL,
[...]
> As far as I can tell (IANAL, and before contacting SPI lawyer) what we
> should ask Legend PC is then to come into compliance of the license, by
> mentioning copyright and permission notices.
>
> Does that matches the analysis made by other -legal people?
As far as I understand it, your analysis matches the ones made by other
debian-legal regulars.
I have already expressed my own opinion:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/11/msg00060.html
so I won't repeat it here.
Please note that other messages were added up to the thread, without
apparently Cc:ing you. I think this one is especially interesting:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/12/msg00005.html
Steve Langasek
> > FYI - A computer shop has taken the Debian logo and used it for his
> > business.
> > http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
> Thank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
> > [...]
> > "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> > from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
>
> Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
This is an unsubstantiated claim that has been repeated ad absurdum on the
lists for years. Sure, it uses a default brush. But who has demonstrated
that the exact swirl pattern can be reproduced trivially by accident? No
one. When companies show up with a logo that reproduces your exact
*application* of the brush, angle for angle down to the pixel, it stretches
credulity to claim that this occurred to them independently.
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Mike Hommey
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:36:44AM +0100, Alessandro Rubini wrote:
> > > FYI - A computer shop has taken the Debian logo and used it for his
> > > business.
>
> > > http://imgur.com/gFKfs.jpg
>
> > Thank you for making this jpeg, it's very clear.
>
> > > [...]
> > > "The comapny Logo was created by photoshop and Logo software, we desgined it
> > > from the stretch. if you have somethins to say, give us a call."
> >
> > Unfortunately, they may be right and in good faith.
> > This message confirms the swirl is just one of the defaults:
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00340.html
>
> This is an unsubstantiated claim that has been repeated ad absurdum on the
> lists for years. Sure, it uses a default brush. But who has demonstrated
> that the exact swirl pattern can be reproduced trivially by accident? No
> one. When companies show up with a logo that reproduces your exact
> *application* of the brush, angle for angle down to the pixel, it stretches
> credulity to claim that this occurred to them independently.
Until someone gives the exact parameters needed to obtain the same
result, there is no way to conclusively say whether this is trivial to
accidentally reproduce or not.
Mike
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Michael Cassano
Mike
Mike Hommey
> I didn't get the exact parameters needed to obtain Debian's logo, but I did
> show that they are not default.
But you didn't show they aren't trivial to unpurposefully reproduce.
Mike
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Stefano Zacchiroli
> > Thanks Joss for the Cc, as I'm not subscribed to -legal (so please
> > keep the Cc on replies).
> Done.
Hi everybody, thanks a lot to Francesco for getting me back into the
loop and for providing some additional useful feedback.
JFYI, I've forwarded the issue to the SPI lawyer as a request for
comment a few days ago. I haven't yet heard back from him, but I'll ping
back and let you know as soon as I've news.
If I fail to get an answer that way, I'll check with the SPI board and
propose to send a letter to the domain owner / website manager,
requesting to come into compliance with the licensing term of the Debian
swirl. If folks on this list have previous experience on similar matter,
it would be very useful, I'm sure SPI board would appreciate a draft
letter. You can pipe it to me, I'll then take care to forward it where
appropriate.
Cheers.
Stefano Zacchiroli
> Hi everybody, thanks a lot to Francesco for getting me back into the
> loop and for providing some additional useful feedback.
To keep you posted on this issue: I've forwarded a request for advice to
the SPI board. My suggestion to them has been to mail a formal request
to domain owner and webmaster, to come into compliance with the swirl
logo licensing terms (i.e. mentioning SPI copyright and license).