Bug#461592: multi-gnome-terminal
Craig Sanders
> Debian.
that would be a shame. gnome terminal (GT) just isn't as good as
multi-gnome-terminal (MGT).
- it's noticably slower than MGT, noticable even in delays when
you are typing.
- GT's handling of tabs isn't as good
- it doesn't number the tabs, and you can't switch tabs with Ctrl-#
- it does weird things with tab titles. the title text is bolded,
in a large font and you can't fit many characters in the title
before it replaces the title with useless '...'.
and instead of having a fixed title width for each tab, it adjusts
the title width each time you open a new tab.
e.g. try opening 18 tabs in MGT and 18 tabs in GT. give each of
them different titles. it's obvious which one is more
informative.
this also affects the appearance and location of GT in the gnome
panel Window List applet.
why is this so bad? i use the tab titles to tell which terminal
tabs are my uid, which are root, which are ssh-ed into other
machines so i can easily switch to them just by clicking on the
title (or pressing Ctrl-n).
this wont be possible in GT because GT seems to regard tab titles
as useless decoration rather than a source of useful information.
- GT doesn't remember how many tabs you had open and re-open them
when you re-start it.
- GT's font handling is weird. it seems to bold everything by default.
this impacts on text in the terminal window and in the title tabs.
with MGT, i can easily fit a 132x75 terminal onto my 21" CRT monitor
(between the top and bottom gnome panels), with quite readable text,
and with informative tab titles (and room to spare even with 19 tabs
in the window).
with GT, i can fit a 132x64 terminal window onto the same screen,
with squished up uninformative tab titles, no matter what font i
use.
GT is OK for someone who doesn't use terminal windows much. it's not
OK for someone who spends most of their time in text terminals and ssh
sessions to remote machines.
i know MGT isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than GT.
> I'd have loved to fix that but I don't feel like fixing it if it'll
> be removed from Debian
like any other package, MGT will only be removed from debian if nobody
maintains it.
if you fix it and maintain it, people will use it. if it's dead
upstream then it can be forked and maintained within debian.
btw, i haven't noticed MGT crashing on my system, and i have:
ii xserver-xorg-core 2:1.4.1~git20080131-1 Xorg X server - core server
i only noticed this bug report because MGT depends on liborbit0 which is
being replaced in unstable with liborbit0ldbl (thus forcing removal of
MGT if i let it upgrade).....and i can't even find the source package
for MGT 1.6.2-13.1 so i can recompile it myself against the libs in
unstable.
ganesh:/usr/local/src/debian/multi-gnome-terminal# apt-get source multi-gnome-terminal
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
E: Unable to find a source package for multi-gnome-terminal
craig
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craig sanders <c...@taz.net.au>
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Mohammed Sameer
On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 08:06:25AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > Unfortunately, MGT is dead upstream and is scheduled for removal from
> > Debian.
>
> that would be a shame. gnome terminal (GT) just isn't as good as
> multi-gnome-terminal (MGT).
>
> - it's noticably slower than MGT, noticable even in delays when
> you are typing.
Are you running GNOME ? I also noticed that VTE, the widget it's using
is a bit slower than zvt, the widget used by m-g-t but that's with
rendering not typing.
> with MGT, i can easily fit a 132x75 terminal onto my 21" CRT monitor
> (between the top and bottom gnome panels), with quite readable text,
> and with informative tab titles (and room to spare even with 19 tabs
> in the window).
Good eyes you have :-)
> > I'd have loved to fix that but I don't feel like fixing it if it'll
> > be removed from Debian
>
> like any other package, MGT will only be removed from debian if nobody
> maintains it.
Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
I think I know someone else who can join. Let's take this discussion off list
if you really feel like joining.
> i only noticed this bug report because MGT depends on liborbit0 which is
> being replaced in unstable with liborbit0ldbl (thus forcing removal of
> MGT if i let it upgrade).....and i can't even find the source package
> for MGT 1.6.2-13.1 so i can recompile it myself against the libs in
> unstable.
Because it's been removed already.
I'm using testing, that's why I didn't hit this.
The 3 solutions I can see are:
1) Port it, I need help.
2) Maintain an unofficial repository with gtk 1.x, Hard work but not a lot once it's up.
Problem is we will be maintaining a lot of packages unmaintained upstream.
3) Write an alternative. I started with this:
http://home.foolab.org/svn/projects/tabterm/trunk/
Spaghetti code, missing a lot of features, unlikely to see a release.
Please feel free to email me privately and let's see.
Cheers,
--
GPG-Key: 0xA3FD0DF7 - 9F73 032E EAC9 F7AD 951F 280E CB66 8E29 A3FD 0DF7
Debian User and Developer.
Homepage: www.foolab.org
Craig Sanders
> [snips]
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 08:06:25AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > > Unfortunately, MGT is dead upstream and is scheduled for removal from
> > > Debian.
> >
> > that would be a shame. gnome terminal (GT) just isn't as good as
> > multi-gnome-terminal (MGT).
> >
> > - it's noticably slower than MGT, noticable even in delays when
> > you are typing.
>
> Are you running GNOME ? I also noticed that VTE, the widget it's using
> is a bit slower than zvt, the widget used by m-g-t but that's with
> rendering not typing.
yep, running gnome.
as for rendering vs typing...yes, you're probably right. but it still
looks and "feels" like delays while typing because there's a noticable
delay between typing a letter and having it appear on screen.
> > with MGT, i can easily fit a 132x75 terminal onto my 21" CRT monitor
> > (between the top and bottom gnome panels), with quite readable text,
> > and with informative tab titles (and room to spare even with 19 tabs
> > in the window).
>
> Good eyes you have :-)
i'm used to it.
to tell the truth, i could cope with having larger fonts and fewer
lines on screen, if GT didn't screw up the title bars so badly. i use
numerous other machines with different screens and, while i always get
132 columns(*), i get anywhere from about 45 lines to 86 lines.
(*) or even more - i'm currently typing this in MGT with 264 columns x
86 lines on my machine at work, with a Dell 2407WFP 24" LCD. admittedly
very few programs use even 132 columns, let alone 264...but it is useful
sometimes for viewing emails when the sender hasn't line-wrapped them
properly at ~75-78 columns. it's also extremely useful for viewing log
files - line wrapping on logs makes them much harder to read.
> > > I'd have loved to fix that but I don't feel like fixing it if it'll
> > > be removed from Debian
> >
> > like any other package, MGT will only be removed from debian if nobody
> > maintains it.
>
> Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
> packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
yeah, well, i guess that's necessary...and probably long overdue.
it's just annoying that it will kill off MGT too.
> For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
> I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
>
> I think I know someone else who can join. Let's take this discussion off list
> if you really feel like joining.
i'd love to but i suspect it's way beyond my meagre C programming skills,
and i certainly don't know either GTK1.x or GTK2 anywhere near well
enough.
if good quality feedback and bug reports are useful to you, then i could
do that.
> > i only noticed this bug report because MGT depends on liborbit0 which is
> > being replaced in unstable with liborbit0ldbl (thus forcing removal of
> > MGT if i let it upgrade).....and i can't even find the source package
> > for MGT 1.6.2-13.1 so i can recompile it myself against the libs in
> > unstable.
>
> Because it's been removed already.
> I'm using testing, that's why I didn't hit this.
any idea where i can find the source for 1.6.2-13.1 ?
> The 3 solutions I can see are:
> 1) Port it, I need help.
> 2) Maintain an unofficial repository with gtk 1.x, Hard work but not a lot once it's up.
> Problem is we will be maintaining a lot of packages unmaintained upstream.
> 3) Write an alternative. I started with this:
> http://home.foolab.org/svn/projects/tabterm/trunk/
> Spaghetti code, missing a lot of features, unlikely to see a release.
a fourth option would be to make Gnome Terminal work more like MGT. it's
not perfect, and it's not going to be as lightweight as MGT but if it
works roughly the same, i can't say that i'd care that much.
maybe even fork GT to make New-MGT, and strip out as many of the
annoying things that slow it down as possible. that would probably be a
lot less work than porting MGT to GTK2
craig
--
craig sanders <c...@taz.net.au>
BOFH excuse #211:
Lightning strikes.
Emilian Nowak
> > Unfortunately, MGT is dead upstream and is scheduled for removal from
> > Debian.
>
> that would be a shame. gnome terminal (GT) just isn't as good as
> multi-gnome-terminal (MGT).
>
> - it's noticably slower than MGT, noticable even in delays when
> you are typing.
>
> - GT's handling of tabs isn't as good
>
> [...]
And you forgot to mention tabs coloring in MGT: Different color when something
is changing, different when something has changed.
I think comparing GT to MGT doesn't have much sense. GT is a software for a
different "target" it is more like demo version of MGT.
It would have more sense to it with Powershell http://packages.debian.org/powershell
Emilian Nowak
> Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
> packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
>
> For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
> I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
I would like to join Your gtk2 porting team.
Mohammed Sameer
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 12:00:52AM +0200, Mohammed Sameer wrote:
> > [snips]
> > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 08:06:25AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > > > Unfortunately, MGT is dead upstream and is scheduled for removal from
> > > > Debian.
> > >
> > > that would be a shame. gnome terminal (GT) just isn't as good as
> > > multi-gnome-terminal (MGT).
> > >
> > > - it's noticably slower than MGT, noticable even in delays when
> > > you are typing.
> >
> > Are you running GNOME ? I also noticed that VTE, the widget it's using
> > is a bit slower than zvt, the widget used by m-g-t but that's with
> > rendering not typing.
>
> yep, running gnome.
>
> as for rendering vs typing...yes, you're probably right. but it still
> looks and "feels" like delays while typing because there's a noticable
> delay between typing a letter and having it appear on screen.
I don't really think I can do anything. I'm not using GT myself
> > > > I'd have loved to fix that but I don't feel like fixing it if it'll
> > > > be removed from Debian
> > >
> > > like any other package, MGT will only be removed from debian if nobody
> > > maintains it.
> >
> > Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
> > packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
>
> yeah, well, i guess that's necessary...and probably long overdue.
>
> it's just annoying that it will kill off MGT too.
I know. It's like losing a child for me :-(
> > For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
> > I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
> >
> > I think I know someone else who can join. Let's take this discussion off list
> > if you really feel like joining.
>
> i'd love to but i suspect it's way beyond my meagre C programming skills,
> and i certainly don't know either GTK1.x or GTK2 anywhere near well
> enough.
>
> if good quality feedback and bug reports are useful to you, then i could
> do that.
Let's see if I can find someone else to port it with me then. I don't
think I can handle it alone. I know I can start it and get it to compile
but I'll probably ignore it after that.
> > > i only noticed this bug report because MGT depends on liborbit0 which is
> > > being replaced in unstable with liborbit0ldbl (thus forcing removal of
> > > MGT if i let it upgrade).....and i can't even find the source package
> > > for MGT 1.6.2-13.1 so i can recompile it myself against the libs in
> > > unstable.
> >
> > Because it's been removed already.
> > I'm using testing, that's why I didn't hit this.
>
> any idea where i can find the source for 1.6.2-13.1 ?
From me ? ;-)
http://home.foolab.org/files/mgt/
Amaya did the last upload so the .dsc file has her signature. You can verify
it yourself.
> > The 3 solutions I can see are:
> > 1) Port it, I need help.
> > 2) Maintain an unofficial repository with gtk 1.x, Hard work but not a lot once it's up.
> > Problem is we will be maintaining a lot of packages unmaintained upstream.
> > 3) Write an alternative. I started with this:
> > http://home.foolab.org/svn/projects/tabterm/trunk/
> > Spaghetti code, missing a lot of features, unlikely to see a release.
>
> a fourth option would be to make Gnome Terminal work more like MGT. it's
> not perfect, and it's not going to be as lightweight as MGT but if it
> works roughly the same, i can't say that i'd care that much.
I don't think GNOME'll accept this.
> maybe even fork GT to make New-MGT, and strip out as many of the
> annoying things that slow it down as possible. that would probably be a
> lot less work than porting MGT to GTK2
Actually, if it's porting Vs. writing my own code, I'd rather write my own.
GT is a bit over engineered "the drawing backend".
Have you tried other alternative multi-tabbed terminals ?
Mohammed Sameer
> On 15-02-2008, at 00:00:52 Mohammed Sameer wrote:
>
> > Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
> > packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
> >
> > For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
> > I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
> I would like to join Your gtk2 porting team.
>
Good. I've submitted an alioth project request. Let's see.
Craig Sanders
> > as for rendering vs typing...yes, you're probably right. but it still
> > looks and "feels" like delays while typing because there's a noticable
> > delay between typing a letter and having it appear on screen.
>
> I don't really think I can do anything. I'm not using GT myself
me either. i only tried it again this morning to see if it was an
acceptable substitute for MGT. it isn't.
> Let's see if I can find someone else to port it with me then. I don't
> think I can handle it alone. I know I can start it and get it to compile
> but I'll probably ignore it after that.
it probably doesn't need much maintainence once it's working. as long
as it compiles and runs, it'll probably only need the occasional
recompile against newer libraries and maybe an occasional fix. can't
see that it needs any new features.
> > any idea where i can find the source for 1.6.2-13.1 ?
>
> From me ? ;-)
> http://home.foolab.org/files/mgt/
>
> Amaya did the last upload so the .dsc file has her signature. You can verify
> it yourself.
thanks.
hopefully, i still have the gtk1.x and other required dev packages
installed and can actually compile it. if not, i'll have to hunt them
down too.
> > maybe even fork GT to make New-MGT, and strip out as many of the
> > annoying things that slow it down as possible. that would probably be a
> > lot less work than porting MGT to GTK2
>
> Actually, if it's porting Vs. writing my own code, I'd rather write my own.
> GT is a bit over engineered "the drawing backend".
the catch is that while you might end up with something better and
lighter-weight than GT, it still might not be quite like MGT.
i could cope with that, as long as it did things (e.g. tabs and title
bars and fonts) at least as well as MGT does. MGT itself has some
quirks/annoyances but i'm used to them and they are compensated for by
functionality that just isn't in GT or other tabbed terms that i've
looked at.
and it defaults to white-on-black the way that the FSM intended, instead
of black-on-white :)
i'm not fixated on MGT, i just want the same functionality. MGT's been
dead uptream for several years, and i suppose i ought to be glad that
it's taken this long before it finally disappears from debian, but i'm
going to miss if it there's no viable replacement.
> Have you tried other alternative multi-tabbed terminals ?
apart from GT and Konsole (worse than GT) and eterm (pretty frills
rather than functionality), what else is there?
craig
--
craig sanders <c...@taz.net.au>
--
Mohammed Sameer
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 01:00:03AM +0100, Emilian Nowak wrote:
> > On 15-02-2008, at 00:00:52 Mohammed Sameer wrote:
> >
> > > Gtk 1.x will be removed. It's a release goal for lenny. That's why all
> > > packages depending on it has to be upgraded to gtk 2.x or removed.
> > >
> > > For m-g-t, It's been already removed. I don't mind trying to port it but
> > > I can't do it alone. I'll need help. Are you interested in joining efforts ?
> > I would like to join Your gtk2 porting team.
> >
>
> Good. I've submitted an alioth project request. Let's see.
I feel like spamming this bug report!
Here's the project: http://alioth.debian.org/projects/multignometerm/
Please join and let's get it done ;-)
I'll also check if I can upload a new package to Debian, let's not make our users suffer
until we give them a shiny port!