I'll Huff & I'll Puff! - LibertarianSA

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Message from discussion I'll Huff & I'll Puff!
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From: "Stephen vJ \(Gmail\)" <sjaarsve...@gmail.com>
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References: <000001cdbc51$4ccae2b0$e660a8...@mweb.co.za>, <71D3E279-C279-4153-8C35-0883A0951...@mac.com>, <000e01cdc014$53f90500$fbeb0f...@gmail.com> <50A06707.3382.BC2...@david.joffe.tshwanedje.com>
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Subject: RE: [Libsa] I'll Huff & I'll Puff!
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:41:40 +0200
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Well, I'm not saying it is not dangerous. I might yet die of some kind of
lunch disease. What I'm saying is that people are not given the free choice
between using a dangerous building material and all the costs associated
with it vs. the alternative, which is often being homeless / schoolless.
Knowing how bad it is, they might choose to cover themselves with road signs
and be schooled under a tree. They might not. Imposing the bureaucrat's
subjective value system on people means that all those who would have taken
their chances with a harmless substance are deprived of what they see as
value exceeding those risks. I causes decisions to be made based on the
subjective value judgements of a few rather than the subjective value
judgements of everyone.

S.

-----Original Message-----
From: libsa@googlegroups.com [mailto:libsa@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
David Joffe
Sent: 12 November 2012 05:04
To: libsa@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Libsa] I'll Huff & I'll Puff!

I must say, asbestos is really nasty stuff, I researched it a little while
back when I had to get rid of a heap of old asbestos rubble lying in my yard
when I moved. Cancer rates (and other disorders) resulting from asbestos
exposure *can* definitely be seen and are very predictable, in spite of how
intangible or invisible they might seem (I can't remember exact figures, but
for those who have had asbestos exposure eventual death rate has a pretty
predictable and non-negligible rate). Then of course there are the
predictable higher death rates for everyone working in the construction
industry with the stuff (and literally basically anyone who later does
maintenance on such constructions .. e.g. drilling into the stuff to install
lighting or whatever ... I spoke to a handiman recently who told me proudly
how he'd drilled into loads of asbestos over the years and he was 'just
fine' :/). Some estimates from the World Health Organization:

    "About 125 million people in the world are exposed to asbestos at the
workplace.
    According to WHO estimates, more than 107 000 people die each year from
asbestos-related lung cancer, mesothelioma and asbestosis resulting from
occupational exposure."

In South Africa the problems would also be compounded by people stealing and
ripping apart the asbestos to do things like make shacks from it. I remember
having asbestos classrooms ... I remember kids breaking those walls by
pushing other kids right into it (and when it breaks it releases masses of
fibers into the air), and I remember dangerous shards of the stuff sticking
out (along with fiber glass) and just left there for months, in the
classroom. We're better off without it, I'm not sure that literally
effectively killing people is a meaningful trade-off for classrooms, and I
don't think we want our kids playing around in/with heaps of asbestos rubble
all over the place. Controlled usage is one thing but you can't really
control it ... it ends up all over ... e.g. on garbage heaps where poor
people scavenge, in our fields where kids play. No thanks. We can really do
better, too, because the main reason we don't have enough classrooms has
little to do with the fact that we can't afford building materials because
of asbestos bans, and a lot more to do with corruption.

The asbestos industry was also one of the prototypical examples of why
people become 'anti-corporate' ... the industry for decades lied and tried
to cover up information about the negative health effects of asbestos, and
lobbied governments to prevent it being banned and keep promoting it.

Speaking of building materials, but it seems a bit stupid to me to
practically build a whole town with only thatch roofs? ... I know it sounds
like 20/20 hindsight but it's very well known that thatch is an increased
fire risk, so surely this town was a disaster waiting to happen (check it
out in Google Maps, large parts of the town are 100% thatch ... it's pretty,
but stupid) ... I can only imagine some kind of local-level 'fascism' e.g.
'building rules' must have been at work in enforcing such disastrous
uniformity ...

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2012/11/11/fire-burns-down-100-hous
es

 - David


On 11 Nov 2012 at 15:56, Stephen vJ (Gmail) wrote:

Send reply to:	libsa@googlegroups.com
From:	"Stephen vJ \(Gmail\)" <sjaarsve...@gmail.com>
To:	<libsa@googlegroups.com>
Subject:	RE: [Libsa] I'll Huff & I'll Puff!
Date sent:	Sun, 11 Nov 2012 15:56:16 +0200
Organization:	Personal - Gmail

> 
> Those asbestos houses were dirt cheap, sturdy, quick to construct... 
> but some bureaucrat decided it was dangerous and outlawed using 
> asbestos as building material. It must have been in the late 80's, 
> because I grew up in a house made of asbestos panels in the 1970's and 
> we had classes at school in the 1980's made from them. Those houses 
> and classrooms were warm in winter, cool in summer, are still standing 
> and still look like they did when they were built. I think a huge 
> injustice was inflicted on the country "for our own good". So now you 
> can't breathe in asbestos fibres, but schooling is under a tree and the
roof over your bed a traffic sign. I don't think we are better off for it,
but the argument against asbestos can be seen, the houses & classrooms not
built from it cannot be seen. What is seen usually wins over what is not
seen...
> like the Gautrain won over all the other things that money could have
bought but didn't.
> S.
> From: libsa@googlegroups.com [mailto:libsa@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of Frances Kendall
> Sent: 11 November 2012 14:14
> To: libsa@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Libsa] I'll Huff & I'll Puff!
> 
> Leon says depends where you are, still can't build wood frame house in 
> Jhb. Can in coastal areas.
> 
> Sent from Frances iPhone
> 
> On 11 Nov 2012, at 13:46, jacostra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> But do we really have such strict regulations? In the southern cape we 
> see many wooden houses. In fact in some holiday towns they seem to be a
majority.
> 
> I also remember houses from asbestos type materials constructed in the 
> seventies. (also in white areas)
> 
> In Australia wooden houses are also very popular, at least in 
> Victoria. It becomes a cycle, popularity translates into more skilled 
> labour around it, translating into more competitive prices again.
> 
> Building that same lake Michigan "kit house" in joburg would take 
> substantially longer than 2 months and probably be more expensive. At 
> least compared to bricks and mortar equivalent...
> 
> J
> Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device
>     
> From: Frances Kendall <fkend...@mac.com>
> Sender: libsa@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 07:51:12 +0200
> To: libsa@googlegroups.com <libsa@googlegroups.com>
> ReplyTo: libsa@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Libsa] I'll Huff & I'll Puff!
> I agree. Especially since we don't have hurricanes! Not that I think 
> it should be regulated in US either. Just if I was rebuilding my house 
> on Staten Island I would consider something more sturdy.
> 
> Sent from Frances iPhone
> 
> On 10 Nov 2012, at 23:59, Erik Peers <erikpe...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I think the opposite is true, that our regulations are too rigid, and 
> we should build houses out of materials other than brick and concrete.
> The SA building regulations interest with the free market where people 
> could have more free choice about which materials they may build their
houses.
> This would lessen the (artificial) housing shortage.
> On 10 Nov 2012 9:55 PM, "Frances Kendall" <fkend...@me.com> wrote:
> I think that they do last pretty well generally. I stayed in one on 
> Lake Michigan for 8 weeks and it felt very prefab in comparison to our 
> homes, but they're well insulated and do well in summer and winter & I 
> saw a new one built in that two months - almost like a kit house.
> A storm like Sandy is very unusual & the clapboard is endemic on the 
> east coast. I think they'll have to reconsider them there. On the other
hand they're quick to rebuild!
> Will we see you at libsem?
> 
> Sent from Frances iPhone
> 
> On 10 Nov 2012, at 21:14, Janette <ray...@iafrica.com> wrote:
> OK, but you would think that by now they would figure out that cheap & 
> quick just doesn't stand up to stress.
> Where are all the American great inventors to discover new durable 
> materials with which to build houses?
> J
> From: libsa@googlegroups.com [mailto:libsa@googlegroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of Frances Kendall
> Sent: 10 November 2012 07:24 AM
> To: libsa@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [Libsa] Wooden houses
> 
> When US immigrants first arrived the place was full of forests. They 
> got into habit of building from wood.
> It's very cheap & quick. They now use plastic clapboard that looks like
wood.
> We use bricks because for a long time it was required by law. Also 
> when our guys arrived not lots of forests around.
> 
> Sent from Frances iPhone
> 
> On 09 Nov 2012, at 22:41, Janette <ray...@iafrica.com> wrote:
> Enjoyed your piece Leon J
> And by the way I often wonder if Americans ever read the story of the
Three Little Pigs.
> Can anyone tell me why they build their houses planks? Surely if your 
> house is in an area that might be hit by a tornado or such, you would 
> want to build it sturdily with bricks. There must be some technical 
> reason why wood is preferred. If it was only for the initial economic 
> reasons then surely the insurance premiums would be higher for wooden
houses than they would be for brick house. Does anyone have any information
on this.
> ". . . Anyhow, when your house gets blown away by three little piggies 
> or a tornado, you'd expect . . ."
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