why is this conversation not appearing on LibSA? It would be better if everyone there could follow.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Galen Sher <gale...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Demand a citizens' recall
To: Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com>
Thanks Trevor. By this interpretation, it seems you agree with my take that a citizens' recall is less necessary than an informed electorate that votes on policies and performance. I believe the latter is the easier goal.
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
'All' we need is for South Africans to get informed and to vote based on policies and performance rather than on devotion to one liberation movement.Ah, do you mean like all those Afrikaners did for forty years...?To make it blindingly simple. For over 40 years, white South African Afrikaners voted for one particular "liberation" movement called the National party, irrespective of its policies and performance, dire as these were. Our current bunch of voters still have 24 years to go before they come close to this record.
Trevor Watkins - Base Software
bas...@gmail.com 083 44 11 721 - 042 293 1405 - (fax)0866 532 363
http://sketchesbyboz37.blogspot.com http://libsa.myfreeforum.org
PO Box 3302, Jeffreys Bay, 6330
On 23 August 2010 13:15, Galen Sher <gale...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see the analogy there. Nevertheless, would a citizens' recall have made a difference if it were exclusionary?
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ah, do you mean like all those Afrikaners did for forty years...?
Trevor Watkins
On 20 August 2010 10:51, Galen <gale...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't even know if a citizen's recall is strictly necessary. 'All'
we need is for South Africans to get informed and to vote based on
policies and performance rather than on devotion to one liberation
movement.
Who is accountable for the mess South Africa is in today?
Nobody! That’s our problem...........................
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Recall - interesting digression.
I had an existentialist moment doing the dishes. The absurdity of it all. I had a sudden vision of somewhere in central Asia back in the good old days. Rumours trickling in of a giant unstoppable horse-horde led by that Ginghis Kahn chappie. People unable to absorb the meaning of it all, getting on with their busy lives, enthusiastically planting their veggies, meeting their mates to discuss local politics, devising ways to improve irrigation or fire-watch, writing indignant letters about potholes and housebreakings to the local rag, and so on.
Here we sit, Trevor, at (in?) a periodic cusp/shift/break in history. I'm not even sure anymore whether Fislam or the Crash is the main threat and there could be others sweeping in like tsunami waves for all anyone knows.
And all I know is that nothing - nothing – happening in Southern Africa will make a blind bit of difference to our fates as global citizens-denizens. This hopeless continent is simply wholly irrelevant in the greater scheme of things even if it was producing any significant movers and shakers.
Well, I never expect you to respond to the point (probably a compliment?) but I always need someone at whom to aim pondering emails.
Here are a couple of today's bearing somewhat on the absurdity of the local game. BTW I comment weekly on FMF articles, generally ending roughly “but where's the possibly-effective change-persuasive argument?”
Commenting:
The key to SA’s chronic and persistently high rates of unemploymentBy Jasson Urbach
The ANC’s recently released election manifesto … places the “Creation of decent work and sustainable livelihoods” as its number one priority and wouldn’t it be luvly to assume they imply their promotion of fast (or any) economic growth as the route … rather than merely the endless racist redistribution of assets and opportunities
… the grandiose goal of halving this rate by 2014 … yes, it was/is a large, ambitious, imposing/impressive (grandiose) and highly desirable (sub-)goal, simply unachievable within assorted constraints out of which the ANC can’t/won’t break as it …continues with its existing policies and strategies.
one can easily lose sight of their primary role – to raise the wages and improve the working conditions of their members relative to equally productive workers in an identical, competitive, non-unionised sector. Unionists wouldn’t agree with that rather anti-union ‘mind-reading’!
To do this, trade unions have to block potential competition – usually from low-skilled individuals who are willing to accept lower wages rather than face the bleak option of being unemployed with the consequence of starvation for themselves and their dependants.
For workers within the unionised sector, wages are (or, can temporarily appear relatively more) secure but inequality in the general population increases because some individuals are earning money whilst others are effectively prevented from entering the market at the lower end. You could of course get such effects with unions not especially privileged by government, through their (human-rights/constitutional) free associations and agreements with uncoerced employers. I guess the part we’re properly against is only the state-privileging of unions and their demands over against employers/others.
In order to achieve the ruling party’s stated objective of radically reducing unemployment, we must carefully weigh how labour market policies affect unemployment and hence SA’s prospects for growth and reducing poverty. In this regard, it is important that we do not focus just on the good intentions behind these policies but, perhaps even more importantly, rigorously investigate any unintended consequences. Considering the role of labour unions (partly to bargain collectively and partly to block the entry of potential competition), it should be clear that they have a vested interest in ensuring that their members are protected, whatever the implications of that protection may be. They are primarily concerned with the interests of their members and the rights of ordinary South Africans come second. Isn’t that true of any/all other sectoral groupings – employers, politicians, public servants, think-tankers, clerics, consumers, etc.? Isn’t it more a matter of how one views protection and government’s various other roles and ‘services’? Isn’t SA full of pro-government thinking? So doesn’t this whole paragraph speak truth (as we see it) in a manner extremely unlikely to influence local thinking? … Hey I keep conceding I also don’t have the trick, the answer, the words that will work the desired magic. It’s simply the challenge we’re not yet rising to meet effectively. Must try harder. F- Just kidding. B- J…j
Government, current and post-election, must start to think honestly and sincerely about ordinary, poor South Africans – regardless of colour. It has to weigh up the risks of taking on vested interests … problem is, in this premature effectively-unlimited democracy the Xhosa/Nguni/black-black majority rules to further its vested interests in endless redistribution, so much faster-delivering than the faster economic growth we’d prefer. |
From George Soros’ Quantum Fund co-founder Jim Rogers:
‘The idea that you can fix a period of excessive borrowing and excessive consumption by more borrowing and more consumption to me is just ludicrous.’
Something, however, has to be done and I suppose it’s too much to hope that our wise global leaders will do the ‘something’ of doing nothing. Especially Obama/Sarko/Brown. Maybe we should be looking out for places with Reagan/Coolidge-type leaders. When Coolidge was reported dead, Dorothy Parker asked ‘How can they tell?’
SAIRR’s 01/2009 Fast Facts assembles some recent leadership quotes.
(15/22.10 BD) ANC pres Jacob Zuma: ‘We have to achieve sound economic growth and development’ … ‘We will have to simultaneously accelerate economic growth and transform the quality of that growth – we have made the creation of decent work, poverty eradication, and combating inequality the centre of our economic policies. We are very determined to achieve thses goals to improve the standard of living of the poor and the working class.’
(3.10 M&G) SA pres Kgalema Motlanthe was a Manuel-like hint that the welfare state needs shrinking. ‘The fact that 12-million of our (48m) people are recipients of grants is not sustainable; for their own dignity it’s much better if people have decent jobs.’
BTW (16.1 FM) NWC planner Jeff Radebe clarifies the ANC election manifesto that ‘decent work’ is ‘the cornerstone of all our efforts’ and will need ‘laws to regulate contract work, subcontracting and outsourcing, steps to reduce the role of labour brokers who rent out labour to large corporations on flexible terms, and punishing employers who don’t provide decent work by refusing them state tenders.’ Also, Reserve Bank’s focus will need to change to include job creation.
(12.10 S Ind) imminent (I reckon) finance minister (Mathews Phosa): ‘We (SA’s post-Polokwane ANC leadership) want to direct more funds to create better infrastructure in the health, education, and housing sectors. We also want to accelerate infrastructure creation to alleviate poverty. We understand, however, that we cannot kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, namely the private sector. So we will be doing everything possible in our power to create a policy and regulatory framework within which the private sector can prosper and create tax rands for us with which we can accelerate delivery and expand our network of social services.’
So - does the ANC want real GDPpercapita growth?
… or only for GDP not to shrink too much?
Hi Vivian. Your homeland’s not so different, eh? So far, two rather sadly stagnating economies. Lots of work for us freemarketers to do! J…j
Worldbank showed only a couple of middle years (1990/1995) of Cameroon’s tax%ofGDP, at 9.8% and 8.6% - like China/India rather than SA’s current 29%. I’d be interested to know from you if government’s effective take/share of the economy is really so low – and if so, what else is wholly stifling growth?.
|
Cameroon |
EF |
$GDPpc |
population |
life expy. |
savings |
|
|
|
const 2000 $ |
years |
% of GDP |
|
|
1970 |
|
493.2 |
6,837,790.00 |
46.2 |
7.4 |
|
1975 |
|
594.3 |
7,824,647.00 |
|
7.6 |
|
1980 |
5.8 |
698.3 |
9,078,130.00 |
51.5 |
6.3 |
|
1985 |
5.8 |
941.9 |
10,514,988.00 |
54.2 |
24.2 |
|
1990 |
5.7 |
718.4 |
12,238,909.00 |
54.6 |
16.1 |
|
1995 |
5.2 |
568.4 |
14,058,403.00 |
53 |
13.7 |
|
2000 |
5.7 |
635.2 |
15,860,778.00 |
50.8 |
16.1 |
|
2001 |
6 |
648.4 |
16,240,110.00 |
|
16.7 |
|
2002 |
5.9 |
658.7 |
16,627,376.00 |
49.8 |
15.1 |
|
2003 |
5.9 |
669.5 |
17,018,907.00 |
|
15.5 |
|
2004 |
5.9 |
678.7 |
17,409,433.00 |
|
16.9 |
|
2005 |
5.7 |
677.5 |
17,795,149.00 |
50.2 |
14.5 |
|
2006 |
5.8 |
688.3 |
18,174,696.00 |
50.3 |
17.3 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
SA |
EF |
$GDPpc |
population |
life expy. |
savings |
|
|
|
const 2000 $ |
years |
% of GDP |
|
|
1970 |
6.7 |
3,104.00 |
22,087,000.00 |
53.1 |
20.8 |
|
1975 |
5.9 |
3,316.50 |
24,728,000.00 |
|
24.4 |
|
1980 |
5.8 |
3,463.20 |
27,576,000.00 |
57.1 |
34.1 |
|
1985 |
5.4 |
3,262.70 |
31,307,880.00 |
59.4 |
25 |
|
1990 |
5.3 |
3,151.80 |
35,200,000.00 |
61.9 |
19.5 |
|
1995 |
6.3 |
2,960.40 |
39,120,000.00 |
58 |
16.5 |
|
2000 |
7 |
3,019.90 |
44,000,000.00 |
48.5 |
15.8 |
|
2001 |
6.9 |
3,046.30 |
44,812,420.90 |
|
15.6 |
|
2002 |
6.9 |
3,127.80 |
45,245,622.00 |
46.5 |
16.9 |
|
2003 |
7 |
3,186.30 |
45,801,325.00 |
45.5 |
15.8 |
|
2004 |
6.9 |
3,301.10 |
46,347,516.00 |
44.6 |
14.4 |
|
2005 |
7.1 |
3,429.00 |
46,892,428.00 |
47.7 |
14.2 |
|
2006 |
7 |
3,562.10 |
47,391,025.00 |
50.7 |
13.9 |
< I haven't checked this out. If anyone does, please let me know if it's a hoax.>
Dunno, Leon, but it’s an illuminating narrative (and isn’t all of history?) and fairly in line with global trends as explored for example in Mark Steyn’s “America Alone”. However I doubt that short twenty years for Britain (unlike say France) and anyway we know how dodgy it can be projecting population or other trends (near or) far into the future. Plus it’s unsurprisingly appearing that not all non-Muslim populations are equally prone to conversion. But no doubt there will be some Muslim-dominated local councils soon enough, as already here and there in Europe. And then, so what?
Reminds me of when I asked our pleasant Gerhardt’s co-owner the Muslim Indian the same kind of Koranic infidel-killing question and he wisely responded “no comment”. Also reminds me of student days when I used to ask my Irish girlfriend’s Camden pals how they felt about IRA killing of innocent Brits. It’s easier to imagine that such great enemy-groupings predominantly consist of nice family folk like ourselves. And who can access “actual proportions”?
And finally, latest Time mag carries an interesting set of coloured circles proportional to several large $-rescue packages since Rooseveldt’s, in both then-$ and 2009 dollar terms, indicating just how order-of-magnitude larger is the intended Obama package even than Dubya’s.
No doubt – well, 3F - we will all live relatively comfortably through this latest period. Only, like Evron Els (except cabbages) I can’t yet imagine how. So many pricks! J…j
Yes, I have to agree with you Trevor as I have also tried it. Hard work, pests such as moles and not to mention the cost of water. Water became very expensive during the last Cape drought when nobody minded the hikes because "something had to be done in order to preserve the water supply".
Of course the price didn't come down again once it started to rain and the dams filled up. Not even after a change of government. The cost of water in Somerset West alone therefore probably makes it economically non-viable.
What I do fine works very well, is a potted herb garden as well as fruit trees in big pots, combined with vermicomposting and water tanks. Most organic waste gets recycled via vermicomposting to produce bumper crops. And pests like moles cannot share in the spoils.
Best of both worlds, you get the pleasure of growing something worthwhile, while reducing your domestic waste and saving money!
But yes, not really applicable to the question of door gardens in townships. So keep up the good work Sasha, I appreciate some of the challenges you must be experiencing.
Where is Joe Slovo? judy
Well, if there were a Heaven, then I am pretty sure Communists would not be allowed into it.
S.
On Thursday, 22 January 2009 12:32:59 UTC+2, Trevor Watkins wrote:
Who is accountable for the mess South Africa is in today?
Nobody! That’s our problem....This is now becoming more and more important, and worth trying to implement, difficult as it is. But it is only one of a series of key actions we need to take.if we are to turn around the devastating collapses of governance, infrastructure and trust which we now face.
Thanks. It was in the news just after I asked. I am in Joburg.