why "teven", and not "taven", in pausal forms?

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

In Sh'mot 5:7 (and in several verses following), the word "teven" appears in a pausal form. Why isn't it "taven"?

Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net

[marshall...@comcast.net]

Probably because the pausal form (like 'emet') has two segols.

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[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

I asked:

> In Sh'mot 5:7 (and in several verses following), the word "teven" appears in a pausal form. Why isn't it "taven"?

and Marshal Schwartz replied:

> Probably because the pausal form (like 'emet') has two segols.

Is there a rule that states which double-segholate words have a double-segholate pausal form?

Art Werschulz
207 Stoughton Avenue, Cranford NJ 07016-2838
(908) 272-1146

[marshall...@comcast.net]

I've never seen one.   I simply memorize the exceptions (like teven and emet).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Art Werschulz" <a...@comcast.net>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[Aryeh Moshen]

Emeth is not a good example as the segol is a hataf segol.  It would never be scheduled for change to a tenuah gedolah.

---

From: "marshall...@comcast.net" <marshall...@comcast.net>
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 7:16:21 PM

[Ari]

Only segolates with an underlying qatl form are lengthened in pausal position. Most of the "exceptions" we can identify don't have this underlying qatl form. I don't recall specifically either way about teven, but I know it's discussed, perhaps by Ben David. Internally I don't think there is any evidence either way to show if has an underlying qatl form (other than the fact that it does legnthen in pausal form, which points to it not being qatl), because it never appears with a suffix, plural, nismach,etc. Perhaps there is external evidence from cognate languages?

Kol tuv,

Ari Kinsberg 

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 21, 6:32 pm, marshall_schwa...@comcast.net wrote:
> Probably because the pausal form (like 'emet') has two segols.

Duh! That is what he is asking. Why does the pausal form have two
segols, and not qamatz/segol, as in shemen/shomen, beten/boten,
kessef, kosef etc. By the way, emes does not have two segols. It has a
chataf and a segol.

GEK

[RJHendel]

Ari
What does "segolates in ktl form refer to?" Could you give some examples.
Thanks
Russell
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[AMK Judaica]

RUSSEL:
 
examples of segolates with underlying qatl form--i didn't write ktl--are geshem, gefen, shemen, eved, pesach, even heres, zemer, etc.
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg
 
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:54:30 -0500
> Subject: [leining] why "teven", and not "taven", in pausal forms?
> From: rjhe...@juno.com

[MG]

The Eben Ezra discusses this issue right there on that pasuk. He says
that there are simply execptions that we don't know the reason for;
another is "Tzedek".
Emet does not have two Segols; not a good example.

Also see Emes LYaakov on this posuk from R' Yaakov Kaminetsky who
elaborates. (I believe that he says that we don't want to confuse it
with the word "Taven" from the shoresh tau-vav-nun).

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 21, 10:54 pm, RJHendel <rjhen...@juno.com> wrote:
> Ari
> What does "segolates in ktl form refer to?" Could you give some examples.

Segolates are such nouns wwhich in their basic form have two segols.
In Hebrew we use pay-ayin-lamid as the prototype shoresh, but in
Arabic they use (the Arab equivalent of) qoof-tess-lamid as the
prototype (I imagine because the Arab mind focusses around this
shoresh) and for some reason some grammarians use this when discussing
Hebrew grammar.

As I understand it: QATL are segolates that in possessive or
conjunctive form change the first segol to a patoch: shemen/shAmni,
kesef/kAspi, derech/dArki. These segolates change the first segol to a
qamatz at a major pause: shOmen, kOsef, dOrech. There are only two
exceptions that I have heard of: 1) Melech/Malki is QATL, but at a
pause remains mElech, not molech. 2) Tene is QATL (Devarim 28:5,
baruch tAnacho) but at esnachto remains tene, not tone (Devarim 26:2,
vesamta vatEne).

QITL are segolates that change the first segol to chiriq when
possessive: shever/shIvro, beged/bIgdo, geshem/gIshmay, nesch
(venIsko, venIskeihem) and so too teven/tIvno. With QITL there is no
rule. Some have qamatz at a pause (Melachim I 18:41 ki qol hamon
hagOshem). Some do not (Bereishis 35:13 vayaseich aleha nEsech, not
nosech), and so too tEven, not toven).

GEK

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

AIUI, the reason for using KTL is that ayin is a problematic letter to use in many examples because it is guttural.

Jeremy

[AMK Judaica]

Jeremy,
 
i thought hebraists borrowed the qtl convention from arabists?
 
kol tuv,
ari kinsberg

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

That's what I understand as well. But I think that the ayin is at least part of the reason they adopted the arabists convention rather than using the hebrew one (P'L). but perhaps it was just snobbishness (In my experience, KTL is used in English writing much more than in Hebrew).

Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Assistant Professor of Clinical Medicine (Emergency Medicine)
Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Bioethics
Columbia University

[Henry Goodman]

I think the problem with ayin is that it is silent (in many pronunciations)
rather than because it is gutteral. Thus it is difficult to represent it in
the latin character set.
Henry Goodman
email henry....@virgin.net

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

That could be it, too.

[RJHendel]

Ari
Thanks for your examples
-geshem, gefen, shemen, eved, pesach, even, heres, zemer-

My question still stands - what does it MEAN to say that these biblical
roots have a QTL form?
Does it refer to some property of the root letters or does it circularly
refer to the fact that it accepts an initial kamatz sometimes.

Thanks
Russell
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