South Pole

[Derek C Breit]

Take an image, as there is a tiny bright spot far removed from the Cusp...

 

Derek

http://www.poyntsource.com/New/index.htm

 

 

[Luis Martinez]

I was on moon patrol, recording for lunar impacts, when i noticed it,
and am lookig at it now (03:06UT). Is it a star?

Luis

[luis martinez]

Definitely not a star.....

[luis martinez]

Derek,

I attached a processed image (Registax) from my video, taken around 04:37UT (about  1.5 hours after your first email).

What do u think the bright spot on the south cusp may be?

Luis

[Derek C Breit]

Derek,

I attached a processed image (Registax) from my video, taken around 04:37UT (about  1.5 hours after your first email).

What do u think the bright spot on the south cusp may be?

Luis

 

I saw that too.. Just a high albedo mountain face.. But that is not what I was trying to point out and it is completely invisible in your image.

You had to be able to see the dark limb.. it is a tiny little speck of light off of the very top of some mountain..

I know someone has to have images it.. I hope so because I didn't capture it all, as I have gone really wide view lately, using a 2 x 1.5 degree FOV..

Still need a couple pieces so I can use the large scope at the same time..

Derek

[Derek C Breit]

Nope..not a star..

It is the bright sunlight peak of some mountain..

I will tell you one thing.. THAT is the exact kind of separation I would
vote for for impact of LCROSS..

Derek

[luis martinez]

I am going to take a second look at the video tonight. It seems the object in the still shot was not what I saw the first time you alerted me to it. I am working with an 8'" SCT so that's my limit. At any rate, it was a fun exercise. 

Luis

[Jim Mosher]

Luis,

I'm pretty sure the dot beyond the tip of the Moon's southern cusp
that you and Derek were looking at is Ewen Whitaker's "M5", a tall
peak slightly onto the Moon's farside and in the western hemisphere.

There are a number of photos and drawings regarding it that you may
wish to look at in this related thread:

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/browse_thread/thread/31793a67adcbe0af?hl=en

In recent months, the Moon has had a strong southerly libration in the
early part of the lunar cycle and M5 has been readily visible, lit,
basically, from the rear. But the Sun is moving increasingly into the
Moon's northern hemisphere, making the lighting on M5 dimmer and
dimmer.

Like you, I found it hard to capture "on film" -- much harder than
last month. I thought it would be an easy target, but when I
downloaded the images from the camera this morning I was disappointed
to find that the M5 dot was only marginally visible on the longest
exposures. You will probably have to download the posted image and
turn up the gamma to see anything at all at the point indicated by the
yellow arrow. The impression of dimness this creates is a bit
misleading, however, since in the eyepiece the bright dot of M5 was
*very* easy to see, even in a twilight sky.

The peak will, of course, still be there tonight, but (unlike most of
the other surface features) it will be even farther from the
terminator. It will be interesting to see if any trace of it can
still be seen by eye.

-- Jim

On Mar 31, 8:43 am, luis martinez <kd7...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am going to take a second look at the video tonight. It seems the object
> in the still shot was not what I saw the first time you alerted me to it. I
> am working with an 8'" SCT so that's my limit. At any rate, it was a fun
> exercise.
> Luis
>

> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Derek C Breit <breit_id...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> >   Derek,
>
> > I attached a processed image (Registax) from my video, taken around 04:37UT
> > (about  1.5 hours after your first email).
>
> > What do u think the bright spot on the south cusp may be?
>
> > Luis
>
> > I saw that too.. Just a high albedo mountain face.. But that is not what I
> > was trying to point out and it is completely invisible in your image.
>
> > You had to be able to see the dark limb.. it is a tiny little speck of
> > light off of the very top of some mountain..
>
> > I know someone has to have images it.. I hope so because I didn't capture
> > it all, as I have gone really wide view lately, using a 2 x 1.5 degree FOV..
>
> > Still need a couple pieces so I can use the large scope at the same time..
>

> > Derek- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[luis martinez]

Thanks for the explanation, Jim. I was not sure which feature this brigh spot was and your identification has helped me considerably in further familiarization with the southern pole area. I may try again tonight. I am counting on all this to be time well spent come LCROSS, regardless of which pole our NASA friends aim for.

 

Luis

[Derek C Breit]

Luis..

 

Image the darkside.. i.e greatly over expose the image..

 

Recording dim star occultations near the bright limb / cusp is practice that is most need, imo..

 

Derek

[luis martinez]

Hi Jim,

Here is tonight's effort at the southern cusp with M5 still clearly visible
(or at least I hope it is M5)
I tried to learn LTVT but I just can't get a handle on how to process an
image and have the lunar features plotted.
If you could process this one and show me the features I'd love to see it.

Do u recall my first feeble effort at imaging Faustini back in January? I
attached it to show my progress; I am quite pleased with how far I've gotten
with the coaching of the great folks in this group.

Ps- do u have a quick set of instructions to get me up to speed on LTVT?
Many thanks.

Luis

File Name MARTINEZ20090401 0432UT Southern Pole
Name of observer: Luis Martinez
Email address of observer: kd7...@gmail.com
Aperture of telescope: 0.20m
Focal length of telescope: 2032mm
Type of camera used: WATEC 902H2 ULTIMATE
Camera detector dimensions: 795X596
Exposure information: ??
Time and date of exposure: 2009-04-01 UT 04:32
Location from which exposure was taken: Casa Grande, Arizona

-----Original Message-----
From: lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Mosher
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:49 PM
To: LCROSS_Observation

[luis martinez]

Thanks Derek.

I am adding all these great tips to my “training plan” and they are all helpful in acquiring the necessary experience.

 

Luis

[Jim Mosher]

You are making great progress, Luis!

As requested, I am attaching an LTVT screenshot with dots indicating
the locations of the primary IAU named craters. A few of the larger
ones have been labeled.

I have tried to improve the directions for the calibration procedure
(which is essential for loading and studying your own photos):

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/3f2fd923c8039b0c

The calibration consists of locating and clicking on two dots of known
longitude and latitude. After doing that, the expected locations of
all the other features fall into place.

In the attachment I have turned up the "gamma" to "2" to bring out the
fainter features, which makes the last major dot look larger and less
detached from the end of the southern cusp than it did. Rather than
M5, I think it is caused by light striking the sloping flank of the
plateau unofficially known as Leibnitz Beta.

Leibnitz Beta is in the "eastern" hemisphere, which at this phase puts
it on the sunny side of the pole. M5, on the other hand, is in the
western hemisphere, and, if visible, would (at this phase) appear as a
tiny star-like dot in the darkness beyond the pole. Its distance
beyond Leibnitz Beta is more than the distance to the Demonax dot on
the other side. It may be present on the original video, but I could
find nothing at that point in the processed photo you posted, even
turning up the brightness and "gamma" as much as I could. I don't
find this surprising because when I looked visually from my location
about an hour before the time of your photo, I could see no trace of
it. Clif's photo from the same night:

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/6d77b1e8215077df

was taken about 4 hours earlier than yours, but unfortunately the
expected location of M5 is a little outside the frame.

M5 *could* be seen (very dimly) on a full disk mosaic posted by
British amateur Pete Lawrence, and taken at 20:15 UT -- 8 hours before
yours. See the images at:

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/3f2fd923c8039b0c

especially to get a feel for how far M5 is from Leibnitz Beta. When
Pete took his photo, the sun angle at M5 was about -4.3 deg. By the
time of you and I looked, it had fallen roughly another solar diameter
to -4.6 deg. Apparently that small change was just enough to put it
in darkness.

-- Jim

[luis martinez]

Jim,

Managed to navigate LTVT with your instructions and figured how to calibrate
a photo, load it, and have the program plot the lunar features. What a neat
little piece of software, thanks for developing it. I attached my first
effort. Of course, it helped that I could provide the two reference points
easily from your image. If I understand correctly, in order for LTVT to plot
and identify all the lunar features desired the user must provide two sets
of known coordinates?
I tried just clicking on two points and using the x/y numbers but I get an
error message, "the two reference points must be at different locations."

At any rate, thanks for the assistance with LTVT; I will be utilizing this
program regularly.

Luis

-----Original Message-----
From: lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Mosher

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:46 PM
To: lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com

[Jim Mosher]

Thanks, Luis.

Yes. The layout of the features on the Moon, as seen in projection in
the sky, is completely determined by the date, time and location of
the observation.

Identifying any two points, ideally as widely spaced as possible,
defines the rotation and magnification of your image; and once those
two points have been located, the expected locations of all others
(such as "M5" and the LCROSS impact targets) are known relative to
them.

For LTVT to make a successful "calibration" it needs valid data in the
lon/lat and x/y (pixel) boxes for the two points. Usually this is
done by clicking on images, but it is possible to enter the data
manually.

For example, for the south pole image you recently uploaded
(MARTINEZ20090401+0432UT+SOUTH+POLE.jpg) the points I identified were
lon=41.957 lat=-84.283 (a small crater on Leibnitz Beta) at x=258
y=176, and lon=36.686 lat=-51.266 (the small crater Vlacq K) at x=594
y=385. If you copy this information into the boxes (along with the
correct date and location information) your will get the same
calibration. These points were taken from the special "dot file" of
control points in "1994 ULCN Supplement v2.csv" at:

http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/dot+files

The error message you are getting sounds like you may be clicking on
pixel locations without *first* entering the lon/lat of the point you
are clicking on. When you click on the second point LTVT checks to
make sure that it differs from the first point in *both* lon/lat and x/
y location. If they aren't different points LTVT can't determine the
scale and rotation of the image.

If you are using control points copied from the main screen, it helps
greatly to have a good set of reference images to know what those
points look like under a variety of lighting conditions. There is an
increasing set of links to full disk images suitable for this purpose
at:

http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/Calibrated+Full+Disk+Images

and you can add some (or all) of these to the set of calibrated images
on your hard drive. There is also a new "Clementine Basemap V2" and a
Lunar Orbiter map available at Map-a-Planet, which you can download as
texture files:

http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/Texture+Files

These have very good registration, and if you can recognize a feature
that appears on your photos in them, you can set the "reference point"
on that feature (with a right-click of the mouse) and copy its lon/lat
as a control point for the calibration.

After you download these files, you use the Files...Change External
File Associations... menu:

http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/File+Associations+Menu

to use them for the display. You also use it to display special dot
files, such as the one mentioned above.

-- Jim

>  LTVT_Image 04012009 south pole.bmp
> 2371KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -