Request for updated two-line orbital elements

[cano...@yahoo.com]

To the LCROSS Team -

This is to request:

1) An update of the NASA JPL Horizons Ephemeris for actual, as opposed
to planned orbital data; and,

2) A two line element set for use with common amateur satellite
tracking software that contains the actual vs. planned orbital
elements, e.g. -

SpaceTrack faq on two line elements
http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

Celestrak faq on two line elements
http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

Enjoying watching your great mission. Great liftoff and lunar flyby.
Thanks.

Clear Skies - Kurt

[Derek C Breit]

HA!

I was in the middle of typing the same type of request when I received
this..

I would certainly attempt to videotape the sat if I had elements and could
display the position in Heavensat!

Derek

Derek C Breit
BREIT IDEAS Obs - COSPAR 8739
E. Longitude -121 42 10.0, Latitude 37 6 47.8, Alt. 282m;

[George Varros]

Not sure this will help but the JPL Horizons site provides ephemeris
dumps for LCROSS.

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi

George

On Jun 26, 11:51 pm, "Derek C Breit" <breit_id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> HA!
>
> I was in the middle of typing the same type of request when I received
> this..
>
> I would certainly attempt to videotape the sat if I had elements and could
> display the position in Heavensat!
>
> Derek
>
> Derek C Breit
> BREIT IDEAS Obs - COSPAR 8739
> E. Longitude -121 42 10.0,  Latitude  37  6 47.8,  Alt.  282m;
>
> To the LCROSS Team -
>
> This is to request:
>
> 1) An update of the NASA JPL Horizons Ephemeris for actual, as opposed to
> planned orbital data; and,
>
> 2) A two line element set for use with common amateur satellite tracking
> software that contains the actual vs. planned orbital elements, e.g. -
>

> SpaceTrack faq on two line elementshttp://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html
>
> Celestrak faq on two line elementshttp://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

[cano...@yahoo.com]

George,

It does, but the Horizons data is planned not actual. The Horizons
data is what is currently available for picking an imaging point. See
discussion in
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/finders-cruise-orbits

The Horizons' data also does not integrate well with satellite
tracking software used by many amateurs.

Tonight, the LCROSS satellite will pass between Cor Caroli (alf CvN)
and M94 (for my o.p. at W110 N41) at around 7UT 2009. Because there
are no USPCMD two-line elements,topocentric plots can be generated
using the NASA JPL Horizons ephermis generator.

It is uncertain whether the satellite will be too faint to image. Use
15 mags for image exposure planning. See chart at:

http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/CruiseFinder/20090629_0700_EQDetail.jpg

in http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/LCROSS_Cruise_Orbit

I was able to generate a rough set of synthetic two line elements from
the JPL Horizons orbital elements. However, the best interpolation was
only good for 2 days (June 29 and 30) and maybe one or two degrees
accuracy.

LCROSS
1 35316U 09031B 09179.0000000 0.000383971 00000-0 00000-0 0 01
2 35316 045.4778 070.491 2622329 016.6782 057.959 00.02527219 05

Although inaccurate, it was not a wasted exercise. Running the
plotted path in animate mode in one of a satellite software packages,
I notice that LCROSS at around 466,000km, unlike most lower fast
moving satellites, has an parallax "hump" in its daily orbital path.
This appears to be related to realitively slow orbital movement of the
satellite each night. The relative change of the observer on the
Earth's rotating surface generates a slight parallax movement.

See graphic - apparent position of LCROSS satellite at 15 min
intervals for 6-26-2009 to 7-1-2009 from W110 N41 observing point

http://canopus56.wikispaces.com/file/view/20090629LCROSSOrbitHump.jpg

Clear skies - Kurt

> > Clear Skies - Kurt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Paul Mortfield]

Hope others are having success tonight. (and clear skies).

I'm currently imaging remotely from a mountain site near Fresno, California.
Using a RC16"f/8.9 and CCD. 60sec binned 2x2 shows the craft trailing about
20-25arcsec/minute. Magnitude is in the 16th mag range.

Used the JPL coords and they're very close. My fov is 1/2 degree, so no
problem picking it up. At the moment its passing IC3808. Getting great
data from astrometry. It continues to move south and east on the diagonal.

good luck.
...paul.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Jun 28, 11:25 pm, "Paul Mortfield" <P...@BackyardAstronomer.com>
wrote:

> Hope others are having success tonight. (and clear skies).
> I'm currently imaging remotely from a mountain site near Fresno, California.
> Using a RC16"f/8.9 and CCD.  60sec binned 2x2 shows the craft trailing about
> 20-25arcsec/minute. Magnitude is in the 16th mag range.
> Used the JPL coords and they're very close. My fov is 1/2 degree, so no
> problem picking it up.  At the moment its passing IC3808.  Getting great
> data from astrometry.  It continues to move south and east on the diagonal.
> good luck. ...paul.

Congratulations and thanks, Paul! Outstanding imaging. Once you have
your images processed, I suggest submitting them to the following (in
addition to posting a link here):

Jonas Dino
Office of Public Affairs
NASA Ames Research Center
jonas...@nasa.gov

Brian Day
brian...@nasa.gov
NASA LCROSS Public Ed. Officer

APOD
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

On this NASA web page, Dan Andrews, NASA AMES LCROSS Project Manager,
specifically solicits images of LCROSS in cruise orbit:

"Dan Andrews wrote to family and friends: . . . There are apparently
some attempts being made by others outside the Agency to actually
image LCROSS in Earth orbit! It will be my pleasure to pass-along if I
see good pics of Earth's newest Satellite."
http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation/andrews062609.htm

A similar amateur satellite flyby image for the Stardust Next Bus was
recently carried in January on another NASA website:
http://stardustnext.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/ega_images2.html
(The lower left hand image on this page was taken by Patrick Wiggins
of SLC, UT using 14 inch of apeture, and is incorrectly credited to
Bill Ryan of the New Mexico Institute of Mining.)

Clear Skies - Kurt

[Paul Mortfield]

Thanks Kurt,
I'm finishing some other projects today, and will get the imagery and an
animation posted soon.
I was in contact with Brian, Rick and the gang last night as soon as I saw
it coming up on the CCD and knowing it was close to predicted coords. I'm
glad they were able to catch it too.

I can reduce the astrometry when I have a moment and submit the data.

I really hope others get a chance over the next week to try it out for
themselves.

...paul.
----- Original Message -----

From: <cano...@yahoo.com>
To: "LCROSS_Observation" <lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 15:43
Subject: [LCROSS_OBS: 809] Re: LCROSS imaged



On Jun 28, 11:25 pm, "Paul Mortfield" <P...@BackyardAstronomer.com>
wrote:

> Hope others are having success tonight. (and clear skies).
> I'm currently imaging remotely from a mountain site near Fresno,
> California.
> Using a RC16"f/8.9 and CCD. 60sec binned 2x2 shows the craft trailing
> about
> 20-25arcsec/minute. Magnitude is in the 16th mag range.
> Used the JPL coords and they're very close. My fov is 1/2 degree, so no
> problem picking it up. At the moment its passing IC3808. Getting great
> data from astrometry. It continues to move south and east on the diagonal.
> good luck. ...paul.

[Paul Mortfield]

Taken June 29, 2009 UT.passing galaxy IC3808. North up

http://www.backyardastronomer.com/lcross/LCROSS-20090629-anim2.gif

Using an RC16" f/8.9 + CCD. Crop of full frame. Spanning 15minutes.
At Sierra Remote Observatories in California.

thanks for looking.
...paul.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Contrats, Paul. That was right on the predicted track. I have linked
your image to this page in this newsgroup. If this does not meet with
your approval, please let me know and I'll delete it. Happy hunting.
- Kurt

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/edit/finders-cruise-orbits

On Jun 29, 11:28 pm, "Paul Mortfield" <P...@BackyardAstronomer.com>
wrote:

[Paul Mortfield]

thanks Kurt,
no problem, feel free to post/link. Its on the NASA lcross page too.
cheers,

...paul.
----- Original Message -----

From: <cano...@yahoo.com>
To: "LCROSS_Observation" <lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 14:51
Subject: [LCROSS_OBS: 816] Re: LCROSS imagery



Contrats, Paul. That was right on the predicted track. I have linked
your image to this page in this newsgroup. If this does not meet with
your approval, please let me know and I'll delete it. Happy hunting.
- Kurt

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/edit/finders-cruise-orbits

On Jun 29, 11:28 pm, "Paul Mortfield" <P...@BackyardAstronomer.com>
wrote:

[cano...@yahoo.com]

With respect to two-line elements, please note the following page
authored by Bill Gray:

http://home.gwi.net/~pluto/mpecs/lcross.htm

TLEs must be computed on a nightly basis. A table of nightly TLEs
through July 27 can be found here:

http://home.gwi.net/~pluto/mpecs/lcross.tle

- Kurt

[amstuart]

Hi:

I I used the Horizons Web Interface at

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi#results

to generate a starting point for my location (Observatory Code H76, Miami,
FL). I used Software Bisque's TheSky to synch my LX200 on a transit path for
LCROSS starting at 9 PM EST, but am using a piggybacked 80 mm f/6 telescope
and Starlight Xpress SXV-H9 to image. Yesterday evening, before the moon was
a problem, I took 75 x 45 second images binned 1x1 and then reviewed the AVI
sequence that I assembled without seeing a hint of LCROSS. Any thoughts
whether this satellite is out of reach for 80 mm of glass? The transit
started at ~ 73* altitude, so light pollution for Miami, Florida was not
that much of an issue.

Thanks.

Adam

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Object is at mag 16. The full Moon washes the sky out to mag 17. It
probably cannot be imaged at this point would be my guess. AVI video
is probably too fast to reach to mag 16. - Kurt

[cano...@yahoo.com]

> AVI video is probably too fast to reach to mag 16.

To correct: You exposure time probably needed to be above 1 minute. -
Kurt

[Derek C Breit]

I can image to mag 16 with my setup..

But the Moon wiped it out...Was barely mag 14...

2.2s exposures...

:-))

I will try again this weekend...

[Paul Mortfield]

Hi Adam,
I'm glad you made the attempt.

I was imaging under the bright moon sunday night without an issue. LCROSS is
actually appearing a bit brighter than 16th mag now, though it was farther
away, it must be getting more illumination.

Sorry to ask some questions but hopefully it'll help us get you successful
in capturing it.
Did you take an image and plate solve to make sure you were imaging the
correct location? or compare against TheSky star patterns?
Did you try taking a 45sec image in a field of 16-18th mag stars and see how
faint you could reach in that exposure time?

given my computation of your setup, (correct me if I'm wrong) you're
getting ~2.75 arcsec/pixel with the 80mm f/6 and SXV-H9 camera (6.4u sized
pixels)
I've measure the approx linear speed to be in the range of about
20arcsec/minute a few nights ago. So given your setup and 45second exposure
you're looking for a trail that was approximately 5.5 pixels long in your
image. And given limiting magnitude, you probably need to really stretch
your frames.

I've had no problem in the past finding 15mag comets in a 60sec binned
exposure in a 4"f/5 refractor. They're faint and the frame is stretched,
but they're visible when blinking the frames.

You might also want to try a binned exposure, and try 60 or 90 seconds. If
you'd like me to check a couple of your frames, I'd be happy to. Fire me off
an offlist email.

cheers,
...paul.

----- Original Message -----

[amstuart]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mortfield" <Pa...@BackyardAstronomer.com>
To: <lcross_ob...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:32 PM
Subject: [LCROSS_OBS: 844] Re: LCROSS: Anyone Succesful Imaging with Small
Aperture?

>

Hi Paul:

Your questions are welcomed. Software Bisque's TheSky had enough asterisms
during the 60 minute transit of LCROSS last evening that it was fairly easy
to SLEW to the location for 9:00 PM EST 07.06.2009. My downloaded image of
the FOV matched perfectly. I typically start with a known, bright star
(Vega, Mirak) that is "up" and after synching on the star, I SLEW in
increments, choosing bright stars until I arrive at the correct RA and Dec.
A 45 second exposure at f/6, unbinned 1x1, showed stars to mag 13+. I took
almost 50 images and stretched 1st and 35th image, for example, and blinked
them after aligning/registering them. Nothing. I assembled all images in an
AVI file and played it back on my PC in full screen mode, slow and fast
speeds: nothing.

I will try binning 2x2 for tonight's transit, and I will fire you off 3
aligned time-ordered FITS images tonight when I get home (I am fooling
around at work...)

Thank you.

Adam