Berlin anyone?
berlin_...@hotmail.com
over but some of the local injustices continue. The local citizens were some
of the most loyal Canadians, yet their cultural heritage was stripped away
from them. While we can't undo all the wrongs of the past, we can make the
future less hostile to the German-Canadians of the Berlin-Waterloo area.
Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
I find it ironic that Berlin's name was undemocratically changed to Kitchener
because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
Culturally, socially and economically, Berlin would be a winner. Germany is
one of the economic power houses of Europe and I'm sure that German companies
would check out *Berlin Ontario* and invest here. However, we first have to
get over our petty prejudices and reclaim this areas cultural heritage.
As a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic community, do we still have what it takes to
make peace with the past and reclaim our future?
Mr. Nice
Berlin, Ontario
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Viet-Tam Luu
>future less hostile to the German-Canadians of the Berlin-Waterloo area.
Hostile? Excuse me?
>Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
>background?
Do you know that there are about 80 million Germans who have a German
background?
>If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
>that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
>out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
Yes, because those 40 million Americans regularly drive the 401...
>I find it ironic that Berlin's name was undemocratically changed to Kitchener
>because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
How is this ironic?
>Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
>camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
My cursory research doesn't seem to reveal this little bit of trivia...
>Culturally, socially and economically, Berlin would be a winner.
As opposed to Kitchener, which is a loser, I suppose.
>Germany is
>one of the economic power houses of Europe and I'm sure that German companies
>would check out *Berlin Ontario* and invest here. However, we first have to
>get over our petty prejudices and reclaim this areas cultural heritage.
Please let me know what drug you're taking, I'm in need of some grand
delusions myself...
>As a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic community, do we still have what it takes to
>make peace with the past and reclaim our future?
The question is, do *you* still have what it takes to make peace with
the past and reclaim our future?
_VTL__________________________________________________________________
Viet-Tam Luu, UWaterloo 4A CS http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/vtluu/
"Look to love / you may dream / and if it should leave / then give it
wings. / But if such a love is meant to be: / Hope is home, and the
heart is free." - Roma Ryan & Eithne ni Bhraonain, "Hope Has A Place"
Chris Palmer
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I find it ironic that Berlin's name was undemocratically changed to Kitchener
>because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
>camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
How do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic? That
statement is just plain wrong. Go read the Berlin News Record from the
time and you'll find that there was public debate on the issue and
that all aspects were carried out with public involvement.
The motion to change the name was approved at a town meeting and this meeting
followed months of discussions on this issue. The main outcome
of this town meeting is summarized in the headline:
http://www.lib.uwaterloo.ca/tour/Berlin/images/Name4I.GIF
"Citizens of Berlin Want Name Changed
Mass Meeting in City Hall Was Practically Unanimous
3 Dissenting Voices
Resolution Appealed to the City Council to Move in the Matter"
[ The text of the newpaper article is also available online at the
university of waterloo library ]
Cheers,
Chris.
--
Mail: crpa...@undergrad.uwaterloo.ca
Homepage: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~crpalmer/
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Viet-Tam Luu <vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
>>I find it ironic that Berlin's name was undemocratically changed to Kitchener
>>because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
>
I think that the `anonymous' poster was sufficiently clear about why the
renaming was supposed to be ironic.
>>Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
>>camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
>
>My cursory research doesn't seem to reveal this little bit of trivia...
It must have been fairly cursory:
http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/boers.html
http://kudu.ru.ac.za/el/history/boerwar5.htm
Note that the name `concentration camp' was used in British Parliament
by a Member that was attacking Kitchener's policy. It seems that these
Boer War camps were intended to be for refugees. Everyone at the camps
were supposed to be there voluntarily, but that supposition appears to
have been false for many of the inmates. The camps were criticized due
to a high death rate, so Lord Kitchener eventually instructed soldiers
to leave women and children with the guerillas that they were fighting.
(`... it was a shrewd political move. It also made excellent military
sense, as it greatly handicapped the guerrillas ...')
>>Culturally, socially and economically, Berlin would be a winner.
>
>As opposed to Kitchener, which is a loser, I suppose.
`Kitchener' is actually supposed to be an economic loser. [By whom?]
I'm told that if Waterloo and Kitchener are made into a single city then
`Waterloo' would be the tourist-optimal name since people have heard of
cities called Waterloo. [Does this mean that Tokyo or Moscow would be
better?]
If the cities do merge and make that name change, the expense of name
change to Berlin would be excessive. I propose that for the time being
everyone be told that that Kitchener is named after Aldwyn Roberts,
known as `Lord Kitchener', `Kitch' or just `the Grand Master'. This
calypso great would increase tourism (who really wants to listen to
polkas?) and hardly anybody will recognize the chrological problems.
--
(*Michael Van Biesbrouck/UW CS Grad Student/CS [46]66 TA*) r([k,X,_|T],[X|T]).
r([s,F,G,X|T],[F,X,[G,X]|T]). r([L|T],S):-a(L,[],R),a(R,T,S). r(X,Y):-v(X,Y).
v([X|T],[Y|T]):-r(X,Y). v([[X]|T],[X|T]). v([X|T],[X|U]):-v(T,U). a([],L,L).
a([X|T],L,[X|S]):-a(T,L,S). n(X,Z):-r(X,Y),!,n(Y,Z). n(X,X):-not r(X,_).
Matt Corks
>Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough.
I think you have an excellent idea, but you didn't take it far enough. Why go
back to Kitchener's previous name, when you can go back to the name before
that? The name "Ebytown" was chosen by the original Mennonite settlers of the
area. Surely it better glorifies the city's history to use this name! Or,
better yet, we can go back to the name of "Sand Hills". It's older still!
But, seriously, when the British name "Kitchener" was chosen, there was a
large German population in the city (enough to support a German-language
newspaper, for example), and the name change was still voted in. I don't
think you're going to have any success trying to change the name now.
--
Matt Corks, congenital pessimist; 3A Math, U. Waterloo
PGP key: <mvc...@uwaterloo.ca>, <http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/mvcorks/>
"If God didn't want us to eat people, He wouldn't have made them out of meat."
berlin_...@hotmail.com
crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer) wrote:
> In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I find it ironic that Berlin's name was undemocratically changed to Kitchener
> >because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
> >Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
> >camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
>
> How do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic? That
> statement is just plain wrong. Go read the Berlin News Record from the
> time and you'll find that there was public debate on the issue and
> that all aspects were carried out with public involvement.
I've read the Berlin News Record, and, superficially, your comments are
accurate. However, if you take into account the various acts of intimidation
directed against the German-Canadian community of Berlin, you'd have to
question the legitimacy of the vote. Or, perhaps, you're someone who's
always believed that the Soviets *also* had democratic elections. After all,
they held elections, and everyone could vote. No?
I don't know about your values but, in my books, a democratic election has to
be fair and free of intimidation. The 1916 election wasn't. Therefore the
name change vote should have been - and still might be - illegal.
> The motion to change the name was approved at a town meeting and this meeting
> followed months of discussions on this issue. The main outcome
> of this town meeting is summarized in the headline:
Was the name "Berlin" one of the options on the ballot?
> http://www.lib.uwaterloo.ca/tour/Berlin/images/Name4I.GIF
> "Citizens of Berlin Want Name Changed
> Mass Meeting in City Hall Was Practically Unanimous
> 3 Dissenting Voices
> Resolution Appealed to the City Council to Move in the Matter"
>
> [ The text of the newpaper article is also available online at the
> university of waterloo library ]
>
> Cheers,
> Chris.
Don't believe everything you read in the papers, Chris. The truth is out
there.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
Matt Corks <mvc...@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Quoth <berlin_...@hotmail.com>:
> >Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough.
>
> I think you have an excellent idea, but you didn't take it far enough. Why go
> back to Kitchener's previous name, when you can go back to the name before
> that? The name "Ebytown" was chosen by the original Mennonite settlers of the
> area. Surely it better glorifies the city's history to use this name! Or,
> better yet, we can go back to the name of "Sand Hills". It's older still!
You're right to mention that Kitchener has had several names. As a matter of
fact, I think it was also called "Mount Pleasant" for a time. However, none
of the name changes was as controversial as the change form Berlin to
Kitchener. It makes no sense to bet on what would have happened in the past,
*but* I'd bet that if there was no intimidation of a large section of
Berlin's population the name change would have been voted down.
> But, seriously, when the British name "Kitchener" was chosen, there was a
> large German population in the city (enough to support a German-language
> newspaper, for example), and the name change was still voted in. I don't
> think you're going to have any success trying to change the name now.
It's a question of political will. It can be done.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough.
> >[...] While we can't undo all the wrongs of the past, we can make the
> >future less hostile to the German-Canadians of the Berlin-Waterloo area.
> Hostile? Excuse me?
No, I don't think I should excuse you. The hostility still exists. Why do
you suppose there are so few positive comments on this issue from
German-Canadians who live in this area? I'll tell you why. It's because
they fear the consequences, and all the trash that is heaped on them. I know
of someone who's a fifth(!) generation German-Canadian (or, a Canadian with a
German cultural heritage - if you will) who publicly stated that they'd like
the name changed back to Berlin and ... wow! The shit hit the fan. This
person's Canadian identity was questioned. This was in 1997 - EIGHTY ONE
YEARS AFTER THE NAME CHANGE VOTE! Hostile? Yes!!
Haoyong Zhang
who are trying to go to Toronto will get confused and visted us instead.
hy
George W.
>Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough. The First World War is long
I really don't care what we call the place. But I don't want to pay
for a name change.
So, tell me, why didn't the evil overlords who renamed Berlin do
something about Lunenberg, Nova Scotia? A large portion of the
German-Canadian population of Lunenberg apparently moved back to
Germany in the late 30's, and locals there have told me that U-Boats
used to put in at harbour so that crewmembers could visit their
families. Probably untrue, but a believable enough rumour to threaten
Britain's favorite North-American deepwater harbour, Halifax, only a
short hop away. "Definitely time to deal with all those pesky
treasonous folk," nine out of ten Secret Evil Overlords say.
(By the way, I believe that the previous argument contains a Straw Man
Fallacy, if someone would like to critique my argument, I'd appreciate
it.)
I think that the citizens of Berlin changed the name so that paranoid
anglos would stop bothering them, I do not think it was part of a deep
plot to subvert German cultural heritage. I think that there are still
enough paranoid anglos around to make Kitchener a name worth keeping
for a while.
People still call me a commie, and there aren't supposed to be any
more where my folks came from. In some southern states, I have to pay
cash for gas because they won't take a credit card with a Ukranian
name on it.. Of course, I still won't change my name.
So, what's your name?
Hugs & Kisses.
George Wangersky
Viet-Tam Luu
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Hostile? Excuse me?
>
>No, I don't think I should excuse you. The hostility still exists. Why do
>you suppose there are so few positive comments on this issue from
>German-Canadians who live in this area? I'll tell you why. It's because
>they fear the consequences, and all the trash that is heaped on them. I know
>of someone who's a fifth(!) generation German-Canadian (or, a Canadian with a
>German cultural heritage - if you will) who publicly stated that they'd like
>the name changed back to Berlin and ... wow! The shit hit the fan. This
>person's Canadian identity was questioned. This was in 1997 - EIGHTY ONE
>YEARS AFTER THE NAME CHANGE VOTE! Hostile? Yes!!
Maybe I'm just out of touch or something, but I don't remember the
last time someone of German origin was systemically discriminated
against, harrassed, or intimidated. You can claim whatever you want
but your previous and subsequent statements make me less and less
inclined to believe you. In any case I've been discriminated against
because of my origins, and yet I would never accuse the general
population of being "hostile."
So you claim the name change to Kitchener was undemocratic, rammed
down people's throats. But then again changing it back to Berlin
now that *most* people are happy (or not unhappy, anyhow) with
Kitchener would be the just the same, wouldn't it?
Call it Berlin if you want. But for everybody else it's Kitchener.
Deal with it. And if you want to be an activist, please find a real
cause.
Chris Palmer
>
>> In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >because of the First World War. And, just who was this Lord Kitchener?
>> >Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
>> >camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
>>
>> How do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic? That
>> statement is just plain wrong. Go read the Berlin News Record from the
>> time and you'll find that there was public debate on the issue and
>> that all aspects were carried out with public involvement.
>
>I've read the Berlin News Record, and, superficially, your comments are
>accurate. However, if you take into account the various acts of intimidation
>directed against the German-Canadian community of Berlin, you'd have to
>question the legitimacy of the vote. Or, perhaps, you're someone who's
>always believed that the Soviets *also* had democratic elections. After all,
>they held elections, and everyone could vote. No?
And what evidence do you have of this intimidation? As I said, how
do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic. Facts please.
>> The motion to change the name was approved at a town meeting and this meeting
>> followed months of discussions on this issue. The main outcome
>> of this town meeting is summarized in the headline:
>
>Was the name "Berlin" one of the options on the ballot?
Perhaps you should read the source that I cited. A public meeting was
held in which the town of Berlin decided that it was appropriate to change
their name. No new name was proposed.
I'm going to fall back on memory from things that I read several years
ago. You'll have to go and check the facts yourself. As I recall,
people were allowed to submit names for the new city. The names were
converted into a short list by the city council. The shortlist was
voted on and the name kitchener was adopted. I seem to recall that
Berlin did actually make it onto the shortlist.
>Don't believe everything you read in the papers, Chris. The truth is out
>there.
You cannot believe everything in papers but the story is hidden there.
If you look at the editorials of the period, you can quickly develop a
sense of what was actually happening. It wasn't a simple matter but
there was considerable support for a name change.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer) wrote:
> In article <6pfjdl$57d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I've read the Berlin News Record, and, superficially, your comments are
> >accurate. However, if you take into account the various acts of intimidation
> >directed against the German-Canadian community of Berlin, you'd have to
> >question the legitimacy of the vote. Or, perhaps, you're someone who's
> >always believed that the Soviets *also* had democratic elections. After all,
> >they held elections, and everyone could vote. No?
>
> And what evidence do you have of this intimidation? As I said, how
> do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic. Facts please.
How do you turn 'feelings' into facts, Chris? If people felt intimidated and
kept their mouths shut, or stayed away from voting in a certain, approved way,
how would you quantify it? I can't.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
jo...@netcom.ca (George Wangersky)wrote:
> berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough. The First World War is long
> <snip>
> I really don't care what we call the place. But I don't want to pay
> for a name change.
The cost would not be prohibitive - especially if the name change was phased
in. Cost is not the real issue.
> So, tell me, why didn't the evil overlords who renamed Berlin do
> something about Lunenberg, Nova Scotia? A large portion of the
> German-Canadian population of Lunenberg apparently moved back to
> Germany in the late 30's, and locals there have told me that U-Boats
> used to put in at harbour so that crewmembers could visit their
> families. Probably untrue, but a believable enough rumour to threaten
> Britain's favorite North-American deepwater harbour, Halifax, only a
> short hop away. "Definitely time to deal with all those pesky
> treasonous folk," nine out of ten Secret Evil Overlords say.
>
> (By the way, I believe that the previous argument contains a Straw Man
> Fallacy, if someone would like to critique my argument, I'd appreciate
> it.)
It has often been said that truth is the first casualty of war. Be leery
about what you read and hear about events during the war.
> I think that the citizens of Berlin changed the name so that paranoid
> anglos would stop bothering them, I do not think it was part of a deep
> plot to subvert German cultural heritage. I think that there are still
> enough paranoid anglos around to make Kitchener a name worth keeping
> for a while.
The name change was not a "deep plot to subvert German cultural heritage". It
was more like an act of war against the people of Berlin.
> People still call me a commie, and there aren't supposed to be any
> more where my folks came from. In some southern states, I have to pay
> cash for gas because they won't take a credit card with a Ukranian
> name on it.. Of course, I still won't change my name.
Nor, should you! And Berlin shouldn't have!
> So, what's your name?
|
|
\|/
Jack Cooper
Say, George, I was only kidding about that comment that
nothing interesting gets posted in kw.general anymore.
Now call your imaginary troll off. Err ... (s)he is
imaginary, isn't (s)he? George?
--
== Jack Cooper - IST, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
== Statistical and Decision Support Applications
Ray Butterworth
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
...
>>Wasn't he the guy who blessed this planet with the idea of *concentration
>>camps*. For that reason alone, the city shouldn't have his name.
>
% oed 'concentration camp'
concentration camp, a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated,
such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African War of
1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals,
etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the
war of 1939-45; also fig.;
Viet-Tam Luu
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>How do you turn 'feelings' into facts, Chris? If people felt intimidated and
>kept their mouths shut, or stayed away from voting in a certain, approved way,
>how would you quantify it? I can't.
Nor can you quantify one person's paranoia and his feeling that
"everyone is out to get him" or more specifically that "there exists
a conspiracy to suppress people of German ancestry."
Feelings, especially your claims about *other* people's feelings,
just don't cut it. Since you've shown that it's easy to post whatever
feelings you may have regarding the matter, and stay anonymous, why
hasn't anybody else? Could it be there are no/few others with these
feelings?
Established, documented facts please.
Ray Butterworth
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
>In article <6pho2c$vh2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>How do you turn 'feelings' into facts, Chris? If people felt intimidated and
>>kept their mouths shut, or stayed away from voting in a certain, approved way,
>>how would you quantify it? I can't.
>
>Nor can you quantify one person's paranoia and his feeling that
>"everyone is out to get him" or more specifically that "there exists
>a conspiracy to suppress people of German ancestry."
>
>Feelings, especially your claims about *other* people's feelings,
>just don't cut it. Since you've shown that it's easy to post whatever
>feelings you may have regarding the matter, and stay anonymous, why
>hasn't anybody else? Could it be there are no/few others with these
>feelings?
Here's something to support both sides.
My parents grew up in England during the second war
(my mother is still bothered by thunder as it recalls
the sounds heard while hiding in the Anderson shelters),
and many of their relatives fought in the armed forces
against Germany in both wars, some suffering permanent
injuries.
But other than possibly financial, I have no objections
to the name Berlin for Kitchener, and might even vote
"yes" if given the chance.
James Nicoll
I have one: Kitchener is unique AFAIK. Berlin isn't.
Why settle for a previously used name?
If we want to change the name, why not do it when Kitchener
annexes Waterloo? Change it to something unique, though.
--
Chris Redmond
>Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
>background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
>that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
>out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
(not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
before that, of course). As a way of attracting tourists, I think
one might do better. Possibly we could rename the city "Free Beer"?
CAR
news.sstech.on.ca
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<6pho2c$vh2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <EwqFM...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer) wrote:
>
>> In article <6pfjdl$57d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >I've read the Berlin News Record, and, superficially, your comments are
>> >accurate. However, if you take into account the various acts of
intimidation
>> >directed against the German-Canadian community of Berlin, you'd have to
>> >question the legitimacy of the vote. Or, perhaps, you're someone who's
>> >always believed that the Soviets *also* had democratic elections. After
all,
>> >they held elections, and everyone could vote. No?
>>
>> And what evidence do you have of this intimidation? As I said, how
>> do you suppose that the name change was undemocratic. Facts please.
>
and
>kept their mouths shut, or stayed away from voting in a certain, approved
way,
>how would you quantify it? I can't.
You claimed that there WERE "various acts of intimidation," not that people
"felt" intimidated. Thus, the request for evidence is legitimate. Don't go
changing your tune when you can't back up what you are saying. Just admit
that you have no proof, and that while there MAY have been intimidation,
there was NONE that you are aware of.
news.sstech.on.ca
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<6pfltn$8ii$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>No, I don't think I should excuse you. The hostility still exists. Why do
>you suppose there are so few positive comments on this issue from
[...]
>person's Canadian identity was questioned. This was in 1997 - EIGHTY ONE
>YEARS AFTER THE NAME CHANGE VOTE! Hostile? Yes!!
Depends on who he was talking to. I personally like the name Berlin better
than Kitchener, but your arguments to this point have been quite
far-fetched. Maybe people who'd like the name change remain silent here
because they'd rather not be associated with your arguments.
Drew Hamilton
> Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough.
No it hasn't.
> The local citizens were some
> of the most loyal Canadians, yet their cultural heritage was stripped away
> from them.
If I ever move to another country, I will have no Canadian cultural
heritage unless I live in a city called Toronto.
> future less hostile to the German-Canadians
Yeah. You're right. I've never seen a German-Canadian person even be
able to walk to the store without some idiot throwing a pie at him and
saying "I would be much less hostile to you if Kitchener were named
Berlin!"
> of the Berlin-Waterloo area.
Shouldn't French-Canadians (from France, not French-speaking) be offended
by living in a place named Waterloo?
> one of the economic power houses of Europe and I'm sure that German companies
> would check out *Berlin Ontario* and invest here. However, we first have to
You're insulting german companies by saying that they would be stupid
enough to invest in businesses in a certain city solely based on that
city's name.
> Mr. Nice
> Berlin, Ontario
Drew
York, Upper Canada
berlin_...@hotmail.com
cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) wrote:
> In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
> >background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
> >that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
> >out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
> Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
> (not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
> chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
> before that, of course).
Are you one of those people, CAR? Funny, but ... whenever I think of
"Berlin", I don't think of Hitler, or the Kaiser. I usually think of a grand
European city with lots of culture, cabarets, architecture, museums, coffee
shops, a certain 'joie de vivre', and things like that. No, I don't think of
Hitler. And I have no interest in accommodating those who do. Do you?
Besides, it's an unfair equation. It would also be unfair to say that
Kitchener is *that* kind of a city. It's not. However, that's not the
issue.
> As a way of attracting tourists, I think
> one might do better. Possibly we could rename the city "Free Beer"?
>
> CAR
It's not about attracting tourists, either.
Mr. Nice
Jeffrey Shallit
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
> I have one: Kitchener is unique AFAIK. Berlin isn't.
>Why settle for a previously used name?
According to the Geography Nameserver at
http://www.mit.edu:8001/geo
there is a Kitchener in Mississippi.
Jeffrey Shallit, Computer Science, University of Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3G1 Canada sha...@graceland.uwaterloo.ca
URL = http://math.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/
berlin_...@hotmail.com
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <EwrE5...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> >But other than possibly financial, I have no objections
> >to the name Berlin for Kitchener, and might even vote
> >"yes" if given the chance.
> I have one: Kitchener is unique AFAIK. Berlin isn't.
> Why settle for a previously used name?
It seems you don't know your geography. There are a couple of 'other'
Kitcheners in the world AND there's one in British Columbia, Canada. And,
perhaps it needs to be repeated, but the name change issue is not about a
popularity contest. It's about culture and heritage and it shouldn't matter
how many Berlins there are.
> If we want to change the name, why not do it when Kitchener
> annexes Waterloo? Change it to something unique, though.
Why? What's wrong with a link to the past?
Mr. Nice
Berlin, Ontario
Mark Fox
Chris Redmond <cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
>>background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
>>that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
>>out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
>
>Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
>(not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
>chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
>one might do better. Possibly we could rename the city "Free Beer"?
>
>CAR
An interesting note for Science Fiction fans, in his
new book "The Great War : The American Front" Harry Turtledove
has the Union allied with Germany invade Canada (allied with the
Confederates) in an alternate World War. One of the Canadian
cities invaded is "Empire" formerly known as Kitchener.
Does anyone recall the author actually visiting the area?
Mark Fox
Computer Science
Ryan Shook
> In article <6pfltn$8ii$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [Who cares, really?]
>
> I think I'd be more inclined to take someone seriously if they
> stood behind their cause with their actual name.
Well canada411.sympatico.ca does list five phone numbers for people who do
have the lastname "Nice"...
In a post to CAR, Mr. Nice said it's not about attracting tourists, if
that's the case I'd like to konw why he mentioned tourists in his initial
post on the weekend.
Ryan
Toby Donaldson
> In article <6pib00$cb6$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
>
> > In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
> > >background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
> > >that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
> > >out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
>
> > Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
> > (not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
> > chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
> > before that, of course).
>
> "Berlin", I don't think of Hitler, or the Kaiser. I usually think of a grand
> European city with lots of culture, cabarets, architecture, museums, coffee
> shops, a certain 'joie de vivre', and things like that. No, I don't think of
> Hitler. And I have no interest in accommodating those who do. Do you?
I think of the Berlin Wall when I hear the name Berlin. "West Berlin"
and "East Berlin" are still loaded words, for me.
Toby
--
Toby Donaldson | The more I think about her, the more I begin to
University of Waterloo | believe she's the best pronoun.
Robert Bridson
> cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) wrote:
>> Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
>> (not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
>> chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
>> before that, of course).
>
>Are you one of those people, CAR? Funny, but ... whenever I think of
>"Berlin", I don't think of Hitler, or the Kaiser. I usually think of a grand
>European city with lots of culture,
Funny, but ... whenever I think of "Berlin", I don't think of culture or
world wars. Probably the vast majority of the newer generations simply match
Berlin with the Berlin Wall, like me. Other associations? Perhaps the
civil tension due to right-wing groups that keep popping up in the news, or
the infamous "Ich bin ein Berliner" quote, or a certain Leonard Cohen song...
>No, I don't think of
>Hitler. And I have no interest in accommodating those who do. Do you?
Good comeback there.
>It's not about attracting tourists, either.
It appears to be about nothing but a single anonymous poster's opinion...
Robert Bridson
David Evans
Toby Donaldson <tjdo...@neumann.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>I think of the Berlin Wall when I hear the name Berlin. "West Berlin"
>and "East Berlin" are still loaded words, for me.
>
For me, too.
There are others who will think of the cheesy 80s band "Berlin" and will
flock here every summer, wearing hot pants and big hair (and the occasional
Atari t-shirt).
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfe...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> In article <6pho2c$vh2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >How do you turn 'feelings' into facts, Chris? If people felt intimidated and
> >kept their mouths shut, or stayed away from voting in a certain, approved
way,
> >how would you quantify it? I can't.
>
> Nor can you quantify one person's paranoia and his feeling that
> "everyone is out to get him" or more specifically that "there exists
> a conspiracy to suppress people of German ancestry."
You're right. I can't quantify it. Nor did I make such a claim. You're
putting a spin on this for no reason that I can understand. Why? Are you
harbouring some fears?
> Feelings, especially your claims about *other* people's feelings,
> just don't cut it. Since you've shown that it's easy to post whatever
> feelings you may have regarding the matter, and stay anonymous, why
> hasn't anybody else? Could it be there are no/few others with these
> feelings?
Could it be that people with German sounding names (whatever people might
interpret that to mean) might be shy to voice their opinion on this issue.
You know, once burnt, twice shy.
> Established, documented facts please.
Coming right up, sir!
Mr. Nice
Berlin, Ontario
"Some facts should be suppressed, or, at least, a just sense of proportion
should be observed in treating them."
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Rick Lugg
German
community had been adopted by Canada (and the Empire) and felt that there
was a need to disassociate themselves from overt support for the Kaiser.
The King (George V ?) changed his family name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor
and other families changed too (e.g. Battenberg to Mountbatten). So there
was clearly an environment in which these families wanted to show their
support for the effort against Germany by drastic measures like the family
name change and the ostracism of German based family members.
--
Rick Lugg
Viet-Tam Luu wrote in message ...
berlin_...@hotmail.com
"Rick Lugg" <rick...@intekom.co.za.spamnot> wrote:
> As well as possible "intimidation" there was also the feeling that the
> German
> community had been adopted by Canada (and the Empire) and felt that there
> was a need to disassociate themselves from overt support for the Kaiser.
>
> The King (George V ?) changed his family name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor
> and other families changed too (e.g. Battenberg to Mountbatten). So there
> was clearly an environment in which these families wanted to show their
> support for the effort against Germany by drastic measures like the family
> name change and the ostracism of German based family members.
Sounds a bit like ethnic (name) cleansing. And that's nothing to be proud
of. Mind you, it was gentle because they allowed all the smaller communities
around Berlin to keep their German names. They just wanted to change the
name of "Canada's German capital". And Kitchener became "as clean as a
kitchen". The cleansing worked.
I think it's time to revisit those shameful days and reclaim the city's proper
name.
Mr. Nice
Berlin, Ontario
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
berlin_...@hotmail.com
rebr...@yoho.uwaterloo.ca (Robert Bridson) wrote:
> Funny, but ... whenever I think of "Berlin", I don't think of culture or
> world wars. Probably the vast majority of the newer generations simply match
> Berlin with the Berlin Wall, like me. Other associations? Perhaps the
> civil tension due to right-wing groups that keep popping up in the news, or
> the infamous "Ich bin ein Berliner" quote, or a certain Leonard Cohen song...
Give me crack and anal sex
Take the only tree that's left
and stuff it up the hole
in your culture
Give me back the Kitchener wall
Give me Stalin and St. Paul
I've seen the future, brother:
it is murder.
-- (with apologies to) Leonard Cohen
See, Kitchener just doesn't cut it.
Viet-Tam Luu
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Since you've shown that it's easy to post whatever
>> feelings you may have regarding the matter, and stay anonymous, why
>> hasn't anybody else? Could it be there are no/few others with these
>> feelings?
>
>Could it be that people with German sounding names (whatever people might
>interpret that to mean) might be shy to voice their opinion on this issue.
>You know, once burnt, twice shy.
Once again you make generalized claims about other people, and the
only clear example of what you claim is yourself. You seem to be
awfully good at pure speculation, but I'm still waiting for you to
show some solid facts.
Adrian Pepper
jo...@netcom.ca wrote,
in article <6pg09e$dp4$1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>:
>People still call me a commie, and there aren't supposed to be any
>more where my folks came from. In some southern states, I have to pay
>cash for gas because they won't take a credit card with a Ukranian
>name on it.. Of course, I still won't change my name.
Are you sure it's the Ukrainian name on the credit card that bothers
them, and not the lack of prominence of the well-known name of the
credit card company on the card, in contrast to the prominence of the
name of some obscure foreign bank? If they are worried that you are
shady, perhaps even criminal, shouldn't they worry more about accepting
from you some of the world's most easily counterfeited paper money?
Or were you being at least partly facetious?
Adrian Pepper
James Nicoll
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <6pju5k$j...@news1.saix.net>,
> "Rick Lugg" <rick...@intekom.co.za.spamnot> wrote:
>
>> As well as possible "intimidation" there was also the feeling that the
>> German
>> community had been adopted by Canada (and the Empire) and felt that there
>> was a need to disassociate themselves from overt support for the Kaiser.
>>
>> The King (George V ?) changed his family name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor
>> and other families changed too (e.g. Battenberg to Mountbatten). So there
>> was clearly an environment in which these families wanted to show their
>> support for the effort against Germany by drastic measures like the family
>> name change and the ostracism of German based family members.
>
>Sounds a bit like ethnic (name) cleansing. And that's nothing to be proud
>of. Mind you, it was gentle because they allowed all the smaller communities
>around Berlin to keep their German names. They just wanted to change the
>name of "Canada's German capital". And Kitchener became "as clean as a
>kitchen". The cleansing worked.
>
>I think it's time to revisit those shameful days and reclaim the city's proper
>name.
Sand Hills it is , then.
--
Viet-Tam Luu
Yes, I agree, the changing of the name Berlin to Kitchener was most
definitely, as you claim, the greatest atrocity in human history.
:->
Ray Butterworth
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <Ews4y...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> rebr...@yoho.uwaterloo.ca (Robert Bridson) wrote:
>
>> Funny, but ... whenever I think of "Berlin", I don't think of culture or
>> world wars. Probably the vast majority of the newer generations simply match
>> Berlin with the Berlin Wall, like me. Other associations? Perhaps the
>> civil tension due to right-wing groups that keep popping up in the news, or
>> the infamous "Ich bin ein Berliner" quote, or a certain Leonard Cohen song...
>
>Give me crack and anal sex
>Take the only tree that's left
>and stuff it up the hole
>in your culture
>Give me back the Kitchener wall
>Give me Stalin and St. Paul
>I've seen the future, brother:
>it is murder.
> -- (with apologies to) Leonard Cohen
>
>See, Kitchener just doesn't cut it.
Or how about:
"First we take Manhattan,
Then we take Kitch'nerrrrrrrr."
It doesn't even rhyme with "violin".
Beaker Ben Shapiro
on this topic. It appears that there are some definite opinions on the
subject. That said, here's mine. (8
>In article <6pib00$cb6$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
> cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) wrote:
>> In article <6pck5c$r8g$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Do you know that there are about 40 million Americans who have a German
>> >background? If *only* a million of them drove by on the 401 and saw a sign
>> >that said *Berlin* instead of *Kitchener*, and decided to check the place
>> >out, the revenues for the local tourist industry would be tremendous.
As someone pointed out, there really aren't too many German Americans
driving up and down the 401 looking for a good time. You may counter that
this is an unproven fact - but please don't. It'd just be silly. (8
And I'll keep your comment about the tourist industry in mind for later..
[comment about negative thoughts of Berlin]
>Are you one of those people, CAR? Funny, but ... whenever I think of
>"Berlin", I don't think of Hitler, or the Kaiser. I usually think of a grand
>European city with lots of culture, cabarets, architecture, museums, coffee
>shops, a certain 'joie de vivre', and things like that. No, I don't think of
>Hitler. And I have no interest in accommodating those who do. Do you?
>Besides, it's an unfair equation. It would also be unfair to say that
>Kitchener is *that* kind of a city. It's not. However, that's not the
>issue.
It's excellent that those are your thoughts when Berlin is
mentioned. They are all appropriate images of the city. Of course there
are going to be negative images of it as well though. The wall only came
down less than ten years ago, and in the city there are still the signs
of the second world war all over the place - crumbling buildings,
overgrown lots - I hope you can understand these peoples' views.
I wonder when the last time you were in Berlin though. The stuff
you are mentioning could come out of any tourist pamhplet. I noticed that
Berliner's attitudes were no different than that of, say, Toronto, or
Montreal - both of which could be described in almost the same way - with
cafes, culture and definite "joie de vivre".
But I'm not trying to attack your opinions on that matter. Yes,
Berlin is a (BIG) beautiful city (hell, my girlfriend lives there), and
the thoughts of Hitler or the Kaiser should really be long past.
>> As a way of attracting tourists, I think
>> one might do better. Possibly we could rename the city "Free Beer"?
>It's not about attracting tourists, either.
>
But you just said earlier that was a big part of it! "The revenues
for the local tourist industry would be tremendous." Hey man, think of
the number of German (and every country) companies that would want an
office in "Free Beer, Ontario"! That'd be really marvy, no?
The thought of changing Kitchener to this new Berlin name is kind of
silly. You can argue all you want that it used to be called Berlin, so it's
not a _new_ name.. Well guess what? It would be! It would be a new name to
everyone who came here after it was called Kitchener, which I would think is
probably almost the entire population.
There is definitely something to be said about wanting to return to
one's "roots", but I fear that you have a large task ahead of you if you
are serious.. Reading all of these messages reminds me of that "They Might
Be Giants" song.. "Istanbul".. Cities change names.. It happens. Don't be
angry for things that happened so long ago. War time causes people to do
both good and bad things..
Since the city name was changed due to a vote, I am inclined to
assume it was (reasonably) fair and just. There are cities that have been
changed in much worse ways - German cities even!
So I ask you - what exactly is it you are trying to do here? Are
you really interested in Kitchener/Berlin? Is it a general German
oppression thing? What are you really trying to do?
I look forward to seeing your reply.
Ben
>Mr. Nice
You know, nice guys finish last.. (8 Just kidding..
--
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
No .sig for you!
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)
Myself, I should know better... ('cause Jack Cooper said it best:
> From ja...@watarts.uwaterloo.ca Tue Jul 28 17:04:14 EDT 1998
> Newsgroups: kw.general
> Subject: Re: Berlin anyone?
> Date: 27 Jul 1998 13:06:48 GMT
>
> Say, George, I was only kidding about that comment that
> nothing interesting gets posted in kw.general anymore.
>
> Now call your imaginary troll off. Err ... (s)he is
> imaginary, isn't (s)he? George?
>
Anyway, since we seem to have troll here I should not rise to
da bait... or debate, whatever.
In article <6pkd5b$fu1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <6pju5k$j...@news1.saix.net>,
> "Rick Lugg" <rick...@intekom.co.za.spamnot> wrote:
>
>> As well as possible "intimidation" there was also the feeling that the
deletia!
>> name change and the ostracism of German based family members.
>
>Sounds a bit like ethnic (name) cleansing. And that's nothing to be proud
>of. Mind you, it was gentle because they allowed all the smaller communities
>around Berlin to keep their German names. They just wanted to change the
^^^^
>name of "Canada's German capital". And Kitchener became "as clean as a
>kitchen". The cleansing worked.
>
>I think it's time to revisit those shameful days and reclaim the city's proper
>name.
>
I think you are being selective in your reading of history here. I
seem to recall reading that the move to rename Berlin was not pushed on
the good folks of Berlin but came from within the German-Canadian
community itself. The "they" in your post above is ambiguous, but
seems to imply the non-Germans wanted to cleans the Germans. (I
suppose we should allow for the possibility of self-cleaning
Germans...)
I recall reading that the motive for the renaming was to "show the
non-German Canadians that the German-Canadians of Berlin were loyal
and true". Doesn't sound like they were "forced" to change the name.
(Unless, of course, you are cynical enough to believe the other motive
that was speculated -- that the good folks of Berlin were finding it
difficult to sell products with a "Made in Berlin" tag on them.)
So I suppose we should allow for the possibility of economics forcing
them to change the name. Drawing a line between being "forced" to and
willingly going along with something attracted by a base motive like
greed might be a bit tricky, but I am confident Mr. Nice will know how
to split that hair.
Other Points: (in response to a wandering debate....)
When I hear the word Berlin - I think of Lou Reed.
(Now that is a cheering thought....
>Caroline says that I'm just a toy
>She wants a man not just a boy
>Oh Caroline says ooh Caroline says
>
>Caroline says she can't help but be mean
>Or cruel or so it seems
>Oh Caroline says Caroline says
>
>She says she doesn't want a man who leans
>Still she's my Germanic Queen
>)
Someone suggested holding off on the rename pending amalgamation --
good idea -- then we can name this whole place Kitchen-Water. (Which
seems, somehow, appropriate.)
--
walter mccutchan (Duke of URL [tm]) fill what is empty
Applications Technology (IST) empty what is full
univ. of waterloo w...@ist.UWaterloo.CA scratch where it itches
Si fallatis officium, quaestor infitias eat se quicquam scie de factis vestris.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> In article <6pjfe8$dfv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Could it be that people with German sounding names (whatever people might
> >interpret that to mean) might be shy to voice their opinion on this issue.
> >You know, once burnt, twice shy.
> Once again you make generalized claims about other people, and the
> only clear example of what you claim is yourself. You seem to be
> awfully good at pure speculation, but I'm still waiting for you to
> show some solid facts.
War was declared on Germany - not on German place names in the Empire. Yet,
because of the war, and for no other reason, Berlin's name was changed to
Kitchener. How's that for a solid fact. Under the circumstances, just how
fair do you think a vote would have been? For me, both the motives and the
results are suspect.
Why do you think this issue surfaces every couple of years?
berlin_...@hotmail.com
bjsh...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Beaker Ben Shapiro) wrote:
I enjoyed your post, Ben.
> There is definitely something to be said about wanting to return to
> one's "roots", but I fear that you have a large task ahead of you if you
> are serious.. Reading all of these messages reminds me of that "They Might
> Be Giants" song.. "Istanbul".. Cities change names.. It happens. Don't be
> angry for things that happened so long ago. War time causes people to do
> both good and bad things..
Of course cities change names. Perhaps this city has had more than it's
share. And I have no problem with that, per se. What I find troubling is
that the 1916 vote - during wartime - remains contentious and controversial.
Why?
> Since the city name was changed due to a vote, I am inclined to
> assume it was (reasonably) fair and just.
Berlin was not an option and a significant percentage of the population
stayed at home. No, I'm sorry but I can't agree with you. I can't see how a
vote like that during wartime could be fair and just.
> There are cities that have been
> changed in much worse ways - German cities even!
I'm sure they have been.
> So I ask you - what exactly is it you are trying to do here? Are
> you really interested in Kitchener/Berlin? Is it a general German
> oppression thing? What are you really trying to do?
>
> I look forward to seeing your reply.
>
> Ben
I'd like to put this issue to rest, once and for all, and I think the best
way to do that is to have a free, open, democratic vote by the people of
Kitchener. Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
options for the new name.
Could you live with that, Ben? I could!
berlin_...@hotmail.com
w...@ist.uwaterloo.ca (Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)) wrote:
> I think you are being selective in your reading of history here. I
> seem to recall reading that the move to rename Berlin was not pushed on
> the good folks of Berlin but came from within the German-Canadian
> community itself. The "they" in your post above is ambiguous, but
> seems to imply the non-Germans wanted to cleans the Germans. (I
> suppose we should allow for the possibility of self-cleaning
> Germans...)
>
> I recall reading that the motive for the renaming was to "show the
> non-German Canadians that the German-Canadians of Berlin were loyal
> and true". Doesn't sound like they were "forced" to change the name.
It wouldn't sound very Canadian if they were, eh? And it wasn't very Canadian
to put Japanese-Canadians, Italian-Canadians and others into camps during the
Second World War either, but it happened. And yes, the German-Canadians were
loyal and true. And that's exactly why the name change didn't have to
happen - unless you're suggesting that the German-Canadians of New Hamburg,
Breslau, Mannheim and Zuber Corners were less loyal and true because they kept
their place names.
> (Unless, of course, you are cynical enough to believe the other motive
> that was speculated -- that the good folks of Berlin were finding it
> difficult to sell products with a "Made in Berlin" tag on them.)
During the war, and shortly after, "Made in Berlin" tags probably didn't sell
too well. And that would be understandable, no? Besides, the tags could have
been changed to read "Made in Ontario" or "Made in Canada".
> Someone suggested holding off on the rename pending amalgamation --
> good idea -- then we can name this whole place Kitchen-Water. (Which
> seems, somehow, appropriate.)
Sure, lets wait for the amalgamation and let the people vote. I have no
problem with that.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <6pkd5b$fu1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I think it's time to revisit those shameful days and reclaim the city's
> >proper name.
> Sand Hills it is , then.
I think you'd be happiest if Kitchener was called Camelot, no?
Ray Butterworth
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
>amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
>options for the new name.
If we get enough choices on the ballot, we'll end up with a name
that almost no one likes. I've heard that when Port Arthur and
Fort William merged (1970), the vote was almost evenly split
between the three choices: "Lakehead", "The Lakehead", and
"Thunder Bay". So guess what most people wanted and look at
what they got.
John Morton
Completely correct. And guess which name the government wanted.
John
Displaced Lakeheader
Adam Frank Nevraumont
> "Rick Lugg" <rick...@intekom.co.za.spamnot> wrote:
>
>> As well as possible "intimidation" there was also the feeling that the
>> community had been adopted by Canada (and the Empire) and felt that there
>> was a need to disassociate themselves from overt support for the Kaiser.
>>
>> The King (George V ?) changed his family name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor
>> and other families changed too (e.g. Battenberg to Mountbatten). So there
>> was clearly an environment in which these families wanted to show their
>> support for the effort against Germany by drastic measures like the family
>
Please do not compare the slaughter of people to the changing of a person's
name. I find such rhetoric quite disgusting and contemptible.
> / And that's nothing to be proud
>of. Mind you, it was gentle because they allowed all the smaller communities
>around Berlin to keep their German names. They just wanted to change the
>name of "Canada's German capital". And Kitchener became "as clean as a
>kitchen". The cleansing worked.
Who are the 'they' you refer to above? The people of Kitchener? The
politicians? Everyone in the commonwealth? Everyone in Canada?
Do you have any evidence that the pivotal people in the name change of
Berlin to Kitchener had the power to make the smaller communities change
their names? (such a power is implies by your use of the word 'allow'.)
>I think it's time to revisit those shameful days and reclaim the city's proper
>name.
You supported your argument with saying at one point that:
'What's wrong with links to the past?'
Well, the name change from Berlin to Kitchener was an event in the past.
According to others, the name was also once 'Sand Hills'. All of the names
'Berlin' 'Kitchener' and 'Sand Hills' are thus part of K-W's past.
The change of name is a unique part of the heritage of the K-W area. Why
erase it?
If conclusive proof came forward that there was intimidation at the voting
booths, that would be one thing. But you have brought little more than
vague insinuations forward in support of your cause.
--
Adam Frank Nevraumont
Adam.Ne...@zeno11.math.uwaterloo.ca
<URL:http://hermite.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/>
#include "http://hermite.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/spam-disclaimer.txt"
Stefan Saroiu
the names of the cities, towns and streets to their pre WWII names (in
those cases pre WWII meant pre-communism ). It's quite funny....
A classic example would be the Leningrad - St. Petersburg change ( in this
case St. Petersburg would be a pre-1917 name :-)))
Stefan
--
****************Stefan Saroiu************************University of Waterloo***
e-mail:ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca*****Combinatorics and Optimization*
http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ssaroiu*****and**Computer Science*****
*****A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems***P. Erdos**
Adrian Pepper
rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca (Ray Butterworth) wrote,
in article <Ewuy1...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>:
>On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:15:00 GMT,
>berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
>>amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
>>options for the new name.
>
>If we get enough choices on the ballot, we'll end up with a name
>that almost no one likes. I've heard that when Port Arthur and
>Fort William merged (1970), the vote was almost evenly split
>between the three choices: "Lakehead", "The Lakehead", and
>"Thunder Bay". So guess what most people wanted and look at
>what they got.
That could have been fixed, and could be fixed in the hypothetical
coming plebiscite, by not using the undemocratic "first-past-the-post"
method of deciding votes.
Instead of only getting to pick one name, people should be required to
rank them in order, and then when the votes are counted, the vote could
be conducted as if each person got to vote in N successive plebiscites,
in each of which the least popular choice of the last one was removed.
For each voter, their highest ranked remaining choice would be
counted. This way, all names would run off until the vote is between
two, which allows for no minority winner. The same thing should be
done for electing representatives, too. Then you only need to figure
out how to compensate for discrepancies between popular vote and party
representation arising from poor distribution of the popular support.
I thought "Lakehead" sounded silly as a name, in contrast to "The
Lakehead", but found "Thunder Bay" tolerable.
I was not old enough to vote, but in some sort of write-in pre-election
I remember proposing the name "McKeoughtonville". (Though I think I've
mispelled Darcy McKeough's surname here).
Adrian.
Thunder Bay, oh Thunder Bay
Where-ever I wonder, you're not so far away...
James Nicoll
it: the natives who were exterminated before settlement of the region
by various Eurpeans occured. I *think* they were the Neutrals, who
discovered that neutrality had the downside of not getting the firearms
their cousins near modern Brantford had. We could do worse than to
use a name from their language, if records of same survive.
--
dbr...@wlu.ca
sha...@graceland.uwaterloo.ca (Jeffrey Shallit) wrote:
> In article <9015579...@globe.uwaterloo.ca>,
> James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> I have one: Kitchener is unique AFAIK. Berlin isn't.
>>Why settle for a previously used name?
>
> According to the Geography Nameserver at
> http://www.mit.edu:8001/geo
> there is a Kitchener in Mississippi.
>
> Jeffrey Shallit, Computer Science, University of Waterloo,
> Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3G1 Canada sha...@graceland.uwaterloo.ca
> URL = http://math.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/
And I would be interested to know if that has always been its name,
especially prior to 1917.
David Brown dbr...@wlu.ca Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
* my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employers *
* too bad *
berlin_...@hotmail.com
rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca (Ray Butterworth) wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:15:00 GMT,
> berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
> >amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
> >options for the new name.
>
> If we get enough choices on the ballot, we'll end up with a name
> that almost no one likes. I've heard that when Port Arthur and
> Fort William merged (1970), the vote was almost evenly split
> between the three choices: "Lakehead", "The Lakehead", and
> "Thunder Bay". So guess what most people wanted and look at
> what they got.
Perhaps no one will like the name, but if it's done democratically, then
people will just have to live with it. Notice that no one is questioning the
disappearance of the names Preston, Hespler and Galt when Cambridge was
selected as the name for the new amalgamated city. Yet, many still question
the 1916 name change from Berlin to Kitchener. Perhaps, if Berlin was on the
ballot ...
berlin_...@hotmail.com
afne...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Adam Frank Nevraumont) wrote:
> In article <6pkd5b$fu1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Sounds a bit like ethnic (name) cleansing. /
> Please do not compare the slaughter of people to the changing of a person's
> name. I find such rhetoric quite disgusting and contemptible.
Settle down, Adam. The way I understand it, "ethnic cleansing" is - for the
most part - not about the slaughter of people. It is about making an area
*free* of certain ethnic groups. The plan (in the former Yugoslavia) was to
force those who didn't belong to a certain ethnic group to move - to leave
their homes, to become refugees. And yes, many died during the ordeal -
which continues in Kosovo today.
My use of the concept of "ethnic (name) cleansing" to refer to Berlin's name
change is not totally inappropriate. I'm sorry if you find it disgusting and
comtemptible. My intention is not to diminish human suffering or misery.
> >And that's nothing to be proud
> >of. Mind you, it was gentle because they allowed all the smaller communities
> >around Berlin to keep their German names. They just wanted to change the
> >name of "Canada's German capital". And Kitchener became "as clean as a
> >kitchen". The cleansing worked.
>
> Who are the 'they' you refer to above? The people of Kitchener? The
> politicians? Everyone in the commonwealth? Everyone in Canada?
No. It refers to some Kitchener politicians and some "community leaders".
> Do you have any evidence that the pivotal people in the name change of
> Berlin to Kitchener had the power to make the smaller communities change
> their names? (such a power is implies by your use of the word 'allow'.)
The smaller communities around Berlin didn't matter that much. Canada's
German Capital - Berlin - did.
> The change of name is a unique part of the heritage of the K-W area. Why
> erase it?
I want to add to it by helping to rename Kitchener to Berlin.
Colin R. Leech
Robert Bridson (rebr...@yoho.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, and there are considerably more than forty million Americans
>>> (not to mention a goodly number of Canadians) to whom "Berlin"
>>> chiefly means Hitler's capital city (and the Kaiser's capital city
>>> before that, of course).
>>
>>Are you one of those people, CAR? Funny, but ... whenever I think of
>>"Berlin", I don't think of Hitler, or the Kaiser. I usually think of a grand
>>European city with lots of culture,
>
> Funny, but ... whenever I think of "Berlin", I don't think of culture or
> world wars. Probably the vast majority of the newer generations simply match
> Berlin with the Berlin Wall, like me. Other associations? Perhaps the
> civil tension due to right-wing groups that keep popping up in the news, or
> the infamous "Ich bin ein Berliner" quote, or a certain Leonard Cohen song...
"First, we take Manhattan
Then we take Berlin"
(whatever the hell that means ...)
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Colin R. Leech
Walter C. McCutchan Duke of URL) (w...@ist.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
>
> Someone suggested holding off on the rename pending amalgamation --
> good idea -- then we can name this whole place Kitchen-Water. (Which
> seems, somehow, appropriate.)
This in a cit^H^H^H metropolitan area that couldn't even figure out how to
have a road change name at the city limit, which is trivially close to a
major intersection, and chose to encumber it with a double-barrelled name
instead. (I'm referring to Fischer-Hallman here, if you hadn't already
guessed.) I'm surprised that Cambridge isn't called PresGaltPeler or
something equally silly.
Colin R. Leech
Beaker Ben Shapiro (bjsh...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
>
> I wonder when the last time you were in Berlin though. The stuff
> you are mentioning could come out of any tourist pamhplet. I noticed that
> Berliner's attitudes were no different than that of, say, Toronto, or
> Montreal - both of which could be described in almost the same way - with
> cafes, culture and definite "joie de vivre".
Montreal definitely has culture, but Trawna? Geez! :-)
> But I'm not trying to attack your opinions on that matter. Yes,
> Berlin is a (BIG) beautiful city (hell, my girlfriend lives there), and
> the thoughts of Hitler or the Kaiser should really be long past.
As with images of Paris including Louis XIV or Napoleon, or Moscow and the
communists.
Colin R. Leech
I've been in touch with K-W for nearly 20 years, and this is the first
time I've heard any significant discussion of the issue, and it's all
coming from one person.
Colin R. Leech
(berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
> What I find troubling is
> that the 1916 vote - during wartime - remains contentious and controversial.
To whom? (Other than yourself.) I've been in touch with K-W for nearly 20
years, and I've never heard it raised as a serious issue.
> I'd like to put this issue to rest, once and for all
So would I, which would be easily accomplished if you would simply go
away. :-)
> Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
> amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
> options for the new name.
>
> Could you live with that, Ben? I could!
I don't have a problem with that. My bet is that it would lose by quite a bit.
Colin R. Leech
Stefan Saroiu (ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
>
> All this discussion reminds me of the past 89 East-European rush to change
> the names of the cities, towns and streets to their pre WWII names (in
> those cases pre WWII meant pre-communism ). It's quite funny....
>
> A classic example would be the Leningrad - St. Petersburg change ( in this
> case St. Petersburg would be a pre-1917 name :-)))
What other changes were there? I can't think of any massive rush towards
renaming.
Colin R. Leech
(berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
> Notice that no one is questioning the
> disappearance of the names Preston, Hespler and Galt when Cambridge was
> selected as the name for the new amalgamated city. Yet, many still question
> the 1916 name change from Berlin to Kitchener.
You've just shot your argument in the foot. *Lots* of people still refer to
the components of Cambridge by their former names, while almost nobody is
concerned about the loss of "Berlin" (except you).
berlin_...@hotmail.com
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>
> Stefan Saroiu (ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
> >
> > All this discussion reminds me of the past 89 East-European rush to change
> > the names of the cities, towns and streets to their pre WWII names (in
> > those cases pre WWII meant pre-communism ). It's quite funny....
> >
> > A classic example would be the Leningrad - St. Petersburg change ( in this
> > case St. Petersburg would be a pre-1917 name :-)))
> What other changes were there? I can't think of any massive rush towards
> renaming.
Most of the renaming was *within* cities. Streets, plazas, and public
buildings that honoured Marx, Lenin or communism were renamed quickly after
the collapse of the Sovied Union.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
> (berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> > Now, if Kitchener and Waterloo (and possibly Cambridge)
> > amalgamate, I'd like to propose that "Berlin" be on the ballot as one of the
> > options for the new name.
> >
> > Could you live with that, Ben? I could!
> I don't have a problem with that. My bet is that it would lose by quite a bit.
Why do you say that, Colin? Are you taking comfort from people's silence on
this issue? I would suggest that you don't misread what that silence means.
The only way to find out what people think is to take it to a vote.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
> (berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> >
> > Notice that no one is questioning the
> > disappearance of the names Preston, Hespler and Galt when Cambridge was
> > selected as the name for the new amalgamated city. Yet, many still question
> > the 1916 name change from Berlin to Kitchener.
> You've just shot your argument in the foot. *Lots* of people still refer to
> the components of Cambridge by their former names, while almost nobody is
> concerned about the loss of "Berlin" (except you).
People refer to Preston, Galt and Hespler in the same way as someone in
Kitchener refers to Stanley Park, Chicopee, or Forest Heights. It's to help
someone understand where they live. Nothing else.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
> (berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> >
> > Why do you think this issue surfaces every couple of years?
> I've been in touch with K-W for nearly 20 years, and this is the first
> time I've heard any significant discussion of the issue, and it's all
> coming from one person.
Significant discussion is almost impossible on this issue. Several years ago
there was a debate on this issue in the Record and the level of vitriol rose
with each letter to the editor. Most people were opposed to the idea.
What I found interesting is that there was almost no support for the idea
from anyone with a *German sounding* last name. I guess they figured out
that it was easier to remain silent. It looks like that attitude hasn't
changed.
Viet-Tam Luu
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What I found interesting is that there was almost no support for the idea
>from anyone with a *German sounding* last name. I guess they figured out
>that it was easier to remain silent. It looks like that attitude hasn't
>changed.
I think you're just paranoid and delusional, and the sooner you seek
help the better off you'll be.
_VTL__________________________________________________________________
Viet-Tam Luu, UWaterloo 4A CS http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/vtluu/
"Look to love / you may dream / and if it should leave / then give it
wings. / But if such a love is meant to be: / Hope is home, and the
heart is free." - Roma Ryan & Eithne ni Bhraonain, "Hope Has A Place"
Ken
>
> Why do you think this issue surfaces every couple of years?
it doesnt.
and i've only lived in this city 40 years.
Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <Ewv3v...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> afne...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Adam Frank Nevraumont) wrote:
>
>> In article <6pkd5b$fu1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Sounds a bit like ethnic (name) cleansing. /
>
>> Who are the 'they' you refer to above? The people of Kitchener? The
>> politicians? Everyone in the commonwealth? Everyone in Canada?
>
>No. It refers to some Kitchener politicians and some "community leaders".
>
OK, now that we know who the "they" are -- were the politicians and
community leaders German Canadians (i.e. this was a self-cleaning) or
were they non-German Canadians who used their power and position to
scrub the German-named city off the map?
..regards
..walter
--
walter mccutchan (Duke of URL [tm]) fill what is empty
Applications Technology (IST) empty what is full
univ. of waterloo w...@ist.UWaterloo.CA scratch where it itches
--
Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <6pg09e$dp4$1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>,
> jo...@netcom.ca (George Wangersky)wrote:
>
>> berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough. The First World War is long
>> <snip>
>
<more snip>
>The name change was not a "deep plot to subvert German cultural heritage". It
>was more like an act of war against the people of Berlin.
>
>> People still call me a commie, and there aren't supposed to be any
>> more where my folks came from. In some southern states, I have to pay
>> cash for gas because they won't take a credit card with a Ukranian
>> name on it.. Of course, I still won't change my name.
>
>Nor, should you! And Berlin shouldn't have!
>
>> So, what's your name?
>
> |
> |
> \|/
>Mr. Nice
>Berlin, Ontario
>
You'll have to forgive some of us for thinking that your name is not
Mr. Nice. You say your credit cards are refused because of your
Ukranian name -- but somehow "Nice" doesn't sound like a Ukranian
name. It is possible you are hiding behind some kind of pen-name?
Let's ask once more...
So, what's your name?
Ray Butterworth
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
...
>Most of the renaming was *within* cities. Streets, plazas, and public
>buildings that honoured Marx, Lenin or communism were renamed quickly after
>the collapse of the Sovied Union.
Meanwhile Ontario has a town called "Swastika",
and I think there's still a county called "Stalin".
(Two extemes make a neutral?)
+ From: sfle...@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk
+ Newsgroups:rec.humor.funny.reruns
+ Subject: Name Changes
+ Keywords: funny, originally appeared in first quarter, 1991
+
+ A recent questionnaire sent out in the Soviet Union contained the
+ questions:
+ 1. Where were you born?
+ 2. Where did you go to school?
+ 3. Where did you attain your majority?
+ 4. Where do you wish to live?
+
+ One return provided the following answers:
+
+ 1. St. Petersburg
+ 2. Petrograd
+ 3. Leningrad
+ 4. St. Petersburg
For those that don't know and can't guess,
they are all names for the same city.
Lorry Sovran
to show that they were Canadian first. While I have a great admiration for
Canada's variety of cultures and believe the various traditions should kept,
maybe its time to just be proud to be Canadian. I don't know about anybody else
but I think this is one of the greatest countries in the world. Besides whatever
the reason for the name change does anybody really believe that the German
community is losing its cultural heritage because of it? I rather suspect that
culture would endure and evolve in about the same way regardless of the cities
name. Our cultural heritage is carried on by the people not places. So what is
the point?
berlin_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <Ewt29...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
>
> > In article <6pjfe8$dfv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Could it be that people with German sounding names (whatever people might
> > >interpret that to mean) might be shy to voice their opinion on this issue.
> > >You know, once burnt, twice shy.
>
> > Once again you make generalized claims about other people, and the
> > only clear example of what you claim is yourself. You seem to be
> > awfully good at pure speculation, but I'm still waiting for you to
> > show some solid facts.
>
> War was declared on Germany - not on German place names in the Empire. Yet,
> because of the war, and for no other reason, Berlin's name was changed to
> Kitchener. How's that for a solid fact. Under the circumstances, just how
> fair do you think a vote would have been? For me, both the motives and the
> results are suspect.
>
> Why do you think this issue surfaces every couple of years?
>
> Mr. Nice
> Berlin, Ontario
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
--
Lorry Sovran
Internal Audit Department
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario
Canada, N2L-3G1
Phone: 519-888-4567
Ext. 2372
Fax: 519-746-9056
Stefan Saroiu
before Stalin died, and not Stalingrad.....
Sorry again,
Stefan Saroiu
Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Stefan Saroiu (ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
>>
>> All this discussion reminds me of the past 89 East-European rush to change
>> the names of the cities, towns and streets to their pre WWII names (in
>> those cases pre WWII meant pre-communism ). It's quite funny....
>>
>> A classic example would be the Leningrad - St. Petersburg change ( in this
>> case St. Petersburg would be a pre-1917 name :-)))
>
>What other changes were there? I can't think of any massive rush towards
>renaming.
>
Well, I don't know any other big cities that had name changes, partly
because communists didn't change the names of the big and older cities and
they settled with many, little ones.
But however, I lived the past-89 years in Eastern-Europe, the name
of 1 out of every 3 high-schools changed (from numbers into names of
Saints or Writers), the name of subway stations (I can recall the change
from the name of a WWII general into the name of a famous painter), the
name of streets, corners, factories, beaches, anything you can imagine.
By the way did you know that every Eastern-European country (except Yugoslavia)
had a city called Stalingrad while Stalin was alive (before 1953) ? After
Stalin died many of these cities were changed back to their initial names.
For example Leningrad was called Stalingrad before 53. Romania's second largest
city (after Bucharest) was also called Stalingrad, after 53 it was renamed
back to Brasov. Yugoslavia didn't have no Stalingrad cities (as far as
I recall) but it had plenty of Titograd ones ( since Tito and Stalin
looked to each other more like enemies rather than communist "comrades" )
I stop since I feel like throwing up remembering all this stuff....
Mattias Hembruch
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <6por6q$8...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>
>> (berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>> >
>
>> time I've heard any significant discussion of the issue, and it's all
>> coming from one person.
>
>Significant discussion is almost impossible on this issue. Several years ago
>there was a debate on this issue in the Record and the level of vitriol rose
>with each letter to the editor. Most people were opposed to the idea.
>
>from anyone with a *German sounding* last name.
>I guess they figured out
>that it was easier to remain silent. It looks like that attitude hasn't
>changed.
>
>Mr. Nice
^^^^
Hmm. Somehow "Nice" doesn't sound like a German last name to me. Unless of
course this was "Schoen", and you changed it due to political pressure :-)
Having lived in K-W for 19 years after being born in Germany (and living
there for 8), I for one, do NOT want to go back to Berlin.. I am involved
with many germans in this area (through my church, which used to be made up
almost 100% of german immigrants and had mainly german services, but now has
mainly english services - perhaps you'd like us to switch back as well? I
can assure you, we didn't switch due to political pressure!). While I can't
recall any germans I know expressing opposition to changing the name back to
Berlin, I can't recall any support either. In other words: WE JUST DON'T CARE.
See, most germans I know tend to blend in to their surroundings. We don't
make a big deal of keeping absolutely every german tradition alive. Sure, we
still open presents on Christmas Eve, my mom still cooks Sauerkraut the odd
time (and I like it), etc. But, we have adopted a more Canadian cuisine in
general (heck, I prefer rice or noodles to potatoes), my dad likes his new
Camry much more than his previous VW, etc. I've heard it said that many/most
germans outside of Germany are too busy making money to care about
politics/culture/etc. I'm not saying it's 100% true, but looking at many
germans I know, I'd have to agree that there's some truth to that
statement.. Maybe THAT's the reason there was no support from anyone with a
german sounding last name?? They didn't care? Heck, my family doesn't have
time to read the paper, much less write stupid letters to the editor about
some dumb name change.. In order to CMA, I will say that letters to the
editor in general are not stupid, just, IMHO, letters to the editor about
changing a name that's been in effect for 80 years are a little stupid. Just
how long was Kitchener called Berlin anyways?
I can't imagine having to reply everytime someone asks me where I live:
Berlin. No, not THAT Berlin. The one that used to be called
Kitchener-Waterloo. See, I doubt there are very people left alive who lived
here when the name was Berlin. I'm sure many more people alive today would
be able to identify this place as K-W, vs. Berlin.
And, we'd have to become UB?? Yeah, THAT would go over well!
Mattias
--
Mattias Hembruch, BASc, MASc (mghe...@ece.uwaterloo.ca) E2-3343, ext 6165,
Software Support, Electrical and Computer Engineering,
Doug Payne
Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Meanwhile Ontario has a town called "Swastika",
>and I think there's still a county called "Stalin".
Sure, and Moscow, 2 Paynes, Lac Mao, Butterworth Lake, Nice Island,
Kaiser Bill Lake and Amin-istikowasik Lake, not to mention Point Less.
Haoyong Zhang
the name of a small city few people care about?
hy
berlin_...@hotmail.com
w...@ist.uwaterloo.ca (Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)) wrote:
> You'll have to forgive some of us for thinking that your name is not
> Mr. Nice. You say your credit cards are refused because of your
> Ukranian name -- but somehow "Nice" doesn't sound like a Ukranian
> name. It is possible you are hiding behind some kind of pen-name?
>
> Let's ask once more...
>
> So, what's your name?
>
> ..regards
> ..walter
I don't know who you're speaking for when you use the expression, "some of
us", but I hope they're better readers than you. I'm sure you realize that
one's comprehension of issues improves if one pays attention to who's saying
what. In short, you're attributing things to me I didn't say.
Perhaps you were thinking of this post:
------------
[...]
People still call me a commie, and there aren't supposed to be any
more where my folks came from. In some southern states, I have to pay
cash for gas because they won't take a credit card with a Ukranian
name on it.. Of course, I still won't change my name.
So, what's your name?
Hugs & Kisses.
George Wangersky
------------
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> In article <6ppkep$g89$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >What I found interesting is that there was almost no support for the idea
> >from anyone with a *German sounding* last name. I guess they figured out
> >that it was easier to remain silent. It looks like that attitude hasn't
> >changed.
>
> I think you're just paranoid and delusional, and the sooner you seek
> help the better off you'll be.
You can think whatever you want. As for me, I can't see why discussing
something I'm interested in makes me paranoid or delusional. Perhaps you are
prone to overreacting.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
mghe...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (Mattias Hembruch) wrote:
[...]
> While I can't
> recall any germans I know expressing opposition to changing the name back to
> Berlin, I can't recall any support either. In other words: WE JUST DON'T CARE.
I'm sure you'd care if it went to a vote. And I strongly suspect that, if you
were a resident of Kitchener, you'd vote in favour of the name change.
> See, most germans I know tend to blend in to their surroundings. We don't
> make a big deal of keeping absolutely every german tradition alive. Sure, we
> still open presents on Christmas Eve, my mom still cooks Sauerkraut the odd
> time (and I like it), etc. But, we have adopted a more Canadian cuisine in
> general (heck, I prefer rice or noodles to potatoes), my dad likes his new
> Camry much more than his previous VW, etc. I've heard it said that many/most
> germans outside of Germany are too busy making money to care about
> politics/culture/etc. I'm not saying it's 100% true, but looking at many
> germans I know, I'd have to agree that there's some truth to that
> statement.. Maybe THAT's the reason there was no support from anyone with a
> german sounding last name?? They didn't care? Heck, my family doesn't have
> time to read the paper, much less write stupid letters to the editor about
> some dumb name change.. In order to CMA, I will say that letters to the
> editor in general are not stupid, just, IMHO, letters to the editor about
> changing a name that's been in effect for 80 years are a little stupid. Just
> how long was Kitchener called Berlin anyways?
Longer than it's been called Kitchener.
> I can't imagine having to reply everytime someone asks me where I live:
> Berlin. No, not THAT Berlin. The one that used to be called
> Kitchener-Waterloo.
Oh yeah, people in London, Ontario have the same problem. NOT!!
Brian Hanley
Don't you have anything better to do than complain about people
who have nothing better to do than talk about the name of a
small city few people care about? :)
You've obviously been reading the thread ... if you don't care for it,
don't read it.
Brian
--
Brian S Hanley | "Fear is the main source of superstition,
2A Systems Design Engineering | and one of the main sources of cruelty.
U of Waterloo /|\ To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."
___________________________/_\|/_\__ - Bertrand Russell _____________________
Brian Hanley
>Here's a thought, maybe the German community in Kitchener wanted the name changed
>to show that they were Canadian first. While I have a great admiration for
>Canada's variety of cultures and believe the various traditions should kept,
>maybe its time to just be proud to be Canadian. I don't know about anybody else
>but I think this is one of the greatest countries in the world. Besides whatever
>the reason for the name change does anybody really believe that the German
>community is losing its cultural heritage because of it? I rather suspect that
>culture would endure and evolve in about the same way regardless of the cities
>name. Our cultural heritage is carried on by the people not places. So what is
>the point?
While it is true that the city's name, in and of itself, is fairly mundane,
it is the politics behind the name (on all sides) that are the issue.
Personally, I think the name Kitchener is fairly inconspicuous.
Even if it would appear that Lord Kitchener was not a pleasant person in
the slightest, the fact that most people didn't *know* about the life of
Lord Kitchener (see the posts where people had to look things up in the
dictionary) is a good indication that "Kitchener" doesn't have negative
connotations for most people.
Obviously, however, the name "Berlin" has some serious baggage associated
with it (the flame density is a good indicator), whether Mr Nice likes it
or not.
Are the opponents of Berlin an over-vocal minority, as Mr Nice suggests,
stifling the will of the people of K-W?
I don't know the answer to that one, but I do know the posts have gotten ugly.
(Even if Mr Nice's original post was an obvious troll.)
Tam referred to Mr Nice as "paranoid" and "delusional", and I'd have to say
that personal attacks only lend credibility to your opponent. While a mob
mentality may prevail, you will lose fewer people to Mr Nice's point of view
if you actually take on his arguments. (Mr Shallit can jump in with a
comment here.)
Then again, we don't live in a free society anyway, we live in a democracy.
:)
On a personal note, I would like to point out that while Kitchener may have
been intended as a neutral (non-German) name, the name Kitchener is that of
a British Lord. British-ness is not Canadian-ness, and a British name is no
better than a German name in this day and age (given that we are no longer
at war with Germany).
Maybe a French name for Kitchener would have been more appropriate? :)
(That was a blatant troll for the unobservant out there ... :)
Chris Redmond
>Longer than it's been called Kitchener.
Finally, something quantifiable in this debate. True, too. The
city was "Berlin" from 1833 to 1917.
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that nobody has pointed to the one
sizeable body of actual information on the Web on this topic.
Some years ago the UW library presented a display of documents
and memorabilia about the 1917 name change, based on a play and
speech by William Chadwick of UW's drama department. The exhibit
was subsequently preserved on the web at
http://www.lib.uwaterloo.ca/tour/Berlin/Berlin.html
CAR
Adrian Pepper
bsha...@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Brian Hanley) wrote,
in article <90184262...@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>:
>Personally, I think the name Kitchener is fairly inconspicuous.
>
>Even if it would appear that Lord Kitchener was not a pleasant person in
>the slightest, the fact that most people didn't *know* about the life of
>Lord Kitchener (see the posts where people had to look things up in the
>dictionary) is a good indication that "Kitchener" doesn't have negative
>connotations for most people.
So, obviously, people who support changing the name from Kitchener
should spend a lot of time subtlely putting the origin of the name into
the general consciousness.
Adrian Pepper.
berlin_...@hotmail.com
w...@ist.uwaterloo.ca (Walter C. McCutchan (Duke of URL)) wrote:
> In article <6pohs3$aai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >No. It refers to some Kitchener politicians and some "community leaders".
> OK, now that we know who the "they" are -- were the politicians and
> community leaders German Canadians (i.e. this was a self-cleaning) or
> were they non-German Canadians who used their power and position to
> scrub the German-named city off the map?
It doesn't matter. I'm not an historian and I'm not interested in laying
blame. After all, what would be the point? The decisions that were made
were made because of the First World War and for no other reason. Had it not
been for the war, we'd still be calling it Berlin. Mind you, I hate to thing
what would have happened during World War Two. For the city's sake I'm glad
it wasn't called Berlin during *that* war. However, those days are over and
I think the citizens should be given a real, unfettered, chance to decide
what the city should be called.
Beaker Ben Shapiro
>> I can't imagine having to reply everytime someone asks me where I live:
>> Berlin. No, not THAT Berlin. The one that used to be called
>> Kitchener-Waterloo.
>
>Oh yeah, people in London, Ontario have the same problem. NOT!!
>
you adopt an accent, or when traveling overseas. (8
But yes, not the strongest argument that I've read.
Glad I could help.
Ben
--
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
No .sig for you!
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
Viet-Tam Luu
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I think you're just paranoid and delusional, and the sooner you seek
>> help the better off you'll be.
>
>You can think whatever you want. As for me, I can't see why discussing
>something I'm interested in makes me paranoid or delusional.
Interested in? Obsessed, I would say...
>Perhaps you are prone to overreacting.
Maybe; you tell me, you're the expert on the matter...
Paranoid, you ask? How about this?
>The hostility still exists. Why do
>you suppose there are so few positive comments on this issue from
>German-Canadians who live in this area? I'll tell you why. It's because
>they fear the consequences, and all the trash that is heaped on them.
You float conspiracy theories. You claim people to be "hostile"
towards those of German descent. You called the name change to
Kitchener "undemocratic". You make broad claims about how *other*
German-descended folks feel. All without a shred of supporting
evidence!
1>@lagrange[535]% oed paranoia
paranoia (paer&schwa.'nOI&schwa.). Path. 9 paranoea. [mod.L. a. Gr.
pi-alpha-rho-alpha-nu-omicron-iota-alpha-, f.
pi-alpha-rho-alpha-nu-omicron--omicron-sigma- distracted, f.
pi-alpha-rho-alpha-- beside + nu-omicron--omicron-sigma-,
nu-omicron-upsilon-sigma- mind.] Mental derangement; spec. chronic mental
unsoundness characterized by delusions or hallucinations, esp. of grandeur,
persecution, etc. The various forms of the disorder are now usu. considered
^^^^^^^^^^^ as belonging to the schizophrenic group of mental illness.
Hey, the OED never lies...
Viet-Tam Luu
Brian Hanley <bsha...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Obviously, however, the name "Berlin" has some serious baggage associated
>with it (the flame density is a good indicator), whether Mr Nice likes it
>or not.
"Berlin" doesn't bother me so much as "Mr. Nice".
>Tam referred to Mr Nice as "paranoid" and "delusional", and I'd have to say
>that personal attacks only lend credibility to your opponent.
Yeah, but it was fun. :-)
> While a mob
>mentality may prevail, you will lose fewer people to Mr Nice's point of view
>if you actually take on his arguments.
I would gladly do so, were there any arguments to take on... If I
claimed that yellow miniature elephants with blue polka-dots paraded
around my apartment every night, could you really argue seriously in
response?
>On a personal note, I would like to point out that while Kitchener may have
>been intended as a neutral (non-German) name, the name Kitchener is that of
>a British Lord. British-ness is not Canadian-ness, and a British name is no
>better than a German name in this day and age (given that we are no longer
>at war with Germany).
German, British, what does it matter? Most of the truly "Canadian"
names are native ones, as someone has already pointed out; anything
else is "imported." And I doubt "Kitchener" was intended to be a
"neutral" name (is there really such a thing?), but that's what it's
become to most people (with the obvious exceptions).
Still, for me Kitchener is an appropriate name for the city: it
usually provokes a yawn. :-)
Colin R. Leech
(berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Colin R. Leech) wrote:
>> (berlin_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>> >
>> > disappearance of the names Preston, Hespler and Galt when Cambridge was
>> > selected as the name for the new amalgamated city. Yet, many still question
>> > the 1916 name change from Berlin to Kitchener.
>
>> You've just shot your argument in the foot. *Lots* of people still refer to
>> the components of Cambridge by their former names, while almost nobody is
>> concerned about the loss of "Berlin" (except you).
>
> People refer to Preston, Galt and Hespler in the same way as someone in
> Kitchener refers to Stanley Park, Chicopee, or Forest Heights. It's to help
> someone understand where they live. Nothing else.
Wrong.
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Viet-Trung Luu
Chris Redmond <cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>> Just how long was Kitchener called Berlin anyways?
>>Longer than it's been called Kitchener.
>
>Finally, something quantifiable in this debate. True, too. The
>city was "Berlin" from 1833 to 1917.
Better change the name quickly then, lest *that* argument become
invalid... <smirk>
- Trung
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> In article <90184262...@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>,
> Brian Hanley <bsha...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> >Obviously, however, the name "Berlin" has some serious baggage associated
> >with it (the flame density is a good indicator), whether Mr Nice likes it
> >or not.
> "Berlin" doesn't bother me so much as "Mr. Nice".
And you're calling *me* paranoid and delusional? Gee, thanks for this
information. And I thought your problem was that someone peed in your morning
cereal.
[...]
> German, British, what does it matter? Most of the truly "Canadian"
> names are native ones, as someone has already pointed out; anything
> else is "imported." And I doubt "Kitchener" was intended to be a
> "neutral" name (is there really such a thing?), but that's what it's
> become to most people (with the obvious exceptions).
>
> Still, for me Kitchener is an appropriate name for the city: it
> usually provokes a yawn. :-)
Kitchener tends to do that. Berlin may not.
Mr. Nice
Berlin Ontario
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vt...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Tam Luu) wrote:
> You float conspiracy theories.
I did not. That's your interpretation and I respect your right to be wrong.
> You claim people to be "hostile"
> towards those of German descent.
I did not. I said that there is hostility towards those German-Canadians who
openly favour renaming the city to Berlin. And there's real hostility if they
persist.
> You called the name change to
> Kitchener "undemocratic".
The vote itself wasn't undemocratic. The fact that Berlin wasn't one of the
options on the ballot made it so. During the First World War against Germany,
who would have had the guts to stand up for Berlin's name?
> You make broad claims about how *other*
> German-descended folks feel. All without a shred of supporting
> evidence!
Do you have solid evidence of how they *really* felt?
Mr. Nice
Berlin, Ontario
berlin_...@hotmail.com
vl...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Viet-Trung Luu) wrote:
I propose that the citizens of Kitchener vote on the name change during the
next municipal election. It's less expensive than holding a referendum. If
there are are serious moves to amalgamate Waterloo/Kitchener(Cambridge?) then
the vote should be held off till that happens. Sounds reasonable, no?
Neil Fraser
> Don't you guys have anything better to do than talking about
> the name of a small city few people care about?
>
> hy
Would that be Berlin, or Kitchener??Neil.
James Ladan
>> German-descended folks feel. All without a shred of supporting
>> evidence!
>
>Do you have solid evidence of how they *really* felt?
The thing is, YOU are claiming to, and using this as a basis for a good
number of your arguments. Since we are not claiming they had certain
feelings, we don't need to know how they really felt, just that there is no
evidence supporting your claims.
Serje Robidoux
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The vote itself wasn't undemocratic. The fact that Berlin wasn't one of the
>options on the ballot made it so. During the First World War against Germany,
>who would have had the guts to stand up for Berlin's name?
Well Mr. Nice, it appears you aren't as familiar with the process that
was followed as you have led others to believe. Which is unfortunate,
because I kind of like the idea of the name Berlin. I'd vote for it
(Do students get to vote??). But then I'm pretty left, so I'm not even
remotely concerned about the economics of the decision.
Judging from the business letter sent by Mr. Breithaupt to a Mr Robinson,
the reason Berlin did not appear on the ballot is because there had already
been a vote on whether the name should be changed or not. The vote on
which name to take followed...
Quote:
We had a citizens' vote [yesterday] on the question of changing the
name of our City, a name it has had for nearly a hundred years,
and I regret to say that those who want to change won by a small
majority. [No new name is as yet selected.]
The letter is dated May 20, 1916. Square brackets indicate handwritten
edits on the letter. (So yes, it was a draft, and could be a complete hoax
if that's the way you want it.) Thanks to Chris Redmond's reference.
I'm sure some of you have checked it out to see what there is, but most
probably haven't. Won't stop you all from arguing though will it?
So a couple of things come to light. 1) This explains why Berlin didn't
appear on the ballot, it had already been decided that a name *change*
would occur. 2) Since the name change went through with "a small
majority", lots of people did oppose the name change. Just not as many as
favored it. Welcome to democracy, if Berlin had appeared on the ballot it
likely would have won.
I can see the headlines now: Berlin changes name to... Berlin?
So any claim that the vote was undemocratic is unfounded. Whether or not it
constitutes some sort of discrimination against german-canadians is a tough
call. I'm inclined to say yes, but I don't think it warrants a name change
anytime soon. For more emotional, and unquantifiable information, there's
an interesting short story in the most recent issue of Storyteller Magazine,
about a german family's difficulties during the wars. "By any other name"
by Tamara Franz.
Oh, and by the time Kitchener annexes Waterloo (unless it's supposed to
happen in the next couple years), the city will have been known as
Kitchener at least as long as it was known as Berlin. (84 years as
Berlin, 81 as Kitchener in 1998)
Thanks for the lively debate though,
Serje
--
http://www.bigfoot.com/~serje
UW Math Orientation Chair | BUDS Lackey
Office: MC 6079 x6732 | MC 4046 x5757
www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~orientat | bu...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
Sean Ives-Hayes
Neil Fraser wrote:
Imagine the bureaucratic nightmare a name change is going to be for an
entire
city. Let alone the Provincial and Federal governments and organization.
Let alone the cost of paint to change Kitchener Parks and Recs vehicles
to
Berlin Parks and Recs. It would be more cost effective to have a new
indoor
public pool in the park named the Berlin Memorial Pool or even just a
monument
to Kitcheners heritage.
Plus, the whole debate and switch to the name Kitchener in the first
place is
a part of our Kitchener heritage and Canadian heritage. We are a diverse
city now, why should one aspect of our diverse culture get precedence.
We have all made Kitchener what it is today, not just those of German
or European heritage.
I'd rather have my tax money go to something useful that benefits the
entire community..
--
Sean Ives-Hayes
Viet-Tam Luu
>
>I did not. I said that there is hostility towards those German-Canadians who
>openly favour renaming the city to Berlin. And there's real hostility if they
>persist.
No, you said:
>Berlin has been called Kitchener long enough. The First World War is long
>over but some of the local injustices continue. The local citizens were some
>of the most loyal Canadians, yet their cultural heritage was stripped away
>from them. While we can't undo all the wrongs of the past, we can make the
>future less hostile to the German-Canadians of the Berlin-Waterloo area.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> You called the name change to
>> Kitchener "undemocratic".
>
>The vote itself wasn't undemocratic. The fact that Berlin wasn't one of the
>options on the ballot made it so. During the First World War against Germany,
>who would have had the guts to stand up for Berlin's name?
Can you show that people were *prevented* or otherwise pressured from
putting Berlin on the ballot? That it wasn't an option alone doesn't
make the vote undemocratic; e.g. the last federal elections wouldn't
be undemocratic just because the Rhinoceros Party wasn't on the ballot
in my riding, only if they were prevented from running.
>Do you have solid evidence of how they *really* felt?
I don't need any solid evidence, as I haven't made any claims.
You, on the other hand, have and therefore do.
Adam Frank Nevraumont
Adrian Pepper <arpe...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
[SNIP]
>That could have been fixed, and could be fixed in the hypothetical
>coming plebiscite, by not using the undemocratic "first-past-the-post"
>method of deciding votes.
>
>Instead of only getting to pick one name, people should be required to
>rank them in order, and then when the votes are counted, the vote could
>be conducted as if each person got to vote in N successive plebiscites,
>in each of which the least popular choice of the last one was removed.
>For each voter, their highest ranked remaining choice would be
>counted. This way, all names would run off until the vote is between
>two, which allows for no minority winner. The same thing should be
>done for electing representatives, too. Then you only need to figure
>out how to compensate for discrepancies between popular vote and party
>representation arising from poor distribution of the popular support.
[SNIP 2 end]
I'm pretty sure I've heard of a book in which they proved (mathematically)
that the goals of democratic decision making could not all work at the
same time.
Does anyone know which book I'm recalling, or could recall its contents
better?
In anycase, if I recall correctly, the one of the problems with the above
method is that it isn't always best for the individual voter to be honest
in eir list of preferences.
--
Adam Frank Nevraumont
Adam.Ne...@zeno11.math.uwaterloo.ca
<URL:http://hermite.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/>
#include "http://hermite.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/spam-disclaimer.txt"
Adam Frank Nevraumont
<berlin_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
>I propose that the citizens of Kitchener vote on the name change during the
>next municipal election. It's less expensive than holding a referendum. If
>there are are serious moves to amalgamate Waterloo/Kitchener(Cambridge?) then
>the vote should be held off till that happens. Sounds reasonable, no?
Either pay for it yourself, get an organization to pay for it, or show
through some reasonable means (like a really long petition) that there is
sufficient popular support to spend that amount of $$$.
Oh, and convince the people in charge, as well. You know, the elected
officials?
It would be more fun if you could just go and spend other people money
on a whim, wouldn't it?
Followups set to kw.general.