Hi,
I am currently an electrical engineer and would like to enter the teaching
profession.  Obviously, I would like to incur as little expense as possible in
my endeavor, but I want to be fully prepared to teach also.  Please give me
recommendations.  Would I be better off pursuing a masters degree in education
or obtaining a 5th year teaching certificate?  If there are other options that
I do not know of, please advise.  Thanks. -Tim
        email: tc...@atlanta.com

:       Hi,
: I am currently an electrical engineer and would like to enter the teaching
: profession.  Obviously, I would like to incur as little expense as possible in
: my endeavor, but I want to be fully prepared to teach also.  Please give me
: recommendations.  Would I be better off pursuing a masters degree in education
: or obtaining a 5th year teaching certificate?  If there are other options that
: I do not know of, please advise.  Thanks. -Tim
:       email: tc...@atlanta.com
Bill,

I was a mechanical engineer, and am now entering the teaching profession
at a private school.  That may be an option you wish to consider - private
schools do not require teaching certificates, and often value the
experience / background you may have to offer as an engineer.

However, you'll have to balance the benefit of avoiding additional
schooling with the cost of a reduced salary - private school teacher
salaries are significantly less than those for public schools (in general).

Hope this helps.  Good luck to you!
.....Elson.....
--
___________________________________________________________________________ ___
Elson Liu                 Luke 12:34               e...@freenet.columbus.oh.us

Not to mention the fact that some private schools DO require certification.

Such as the school where I work.

Sheila King

Bill -  There are many places that need math teachers so badly that they
are willing to let you get a credential while you teach.  We have had a
few of those on our campuses here in California, even in some very nice
districts.  Another alternative is to enroll immediately in some private
colleges that offer night courses, like National University.  That's how
I went back for my credential.  It took about a year, starting the day
you walk in.  No hassle qualifying, no wait for semester openings, etc.

My district is growing rapidly.  You might want to contact Elk Grove
Unified School District in California, near Sacramento.  I know my high
school is trying to hire math teachers for next year and NOT finding
qualified applicants!!  (e-mail me for more info  
jpa...@egusd.k12.ca.us)

One problem I have with "Certification" is that this mechanical
engineer probably has much more foresight, applications, computer
smarts, not to mention real life experiences than probably 90 percent
of the "Certified" math teachers in the public and private schools.

Another problem that I have with "Certification" is that it does not
require advanced math coures or hard core calculus.  That doesn't
say that "Certified" teachers haven't taken this stuff for one reason
or another.  It just means that "Certified" teachers aren't required
to take this ( at leas in some states).  Most engineers have taken
some advanced math classes.
(i.e. partial diffeq, advanced calculus, fourier analysis, number
theory, maybe even topology).

I could go on for hours.
I think that this engineer could offer a tremendous experience for
students, assuming that he will have a positive student teaching
experience, and will have the opportunity to teach and not
have to spend 30 percent of his time disciplining the students.

Art Burke

One problem I have with "Certification" is that this mechanical
engineer probably has much more foresight, applications, computer
smarts, not to mention real life experiences than probably 90 percent
of the "Certified" math teachers in the public and private schools.

Another problem that I have with "Certification" is that it does not
require advanced math coures or hard core calculus.  That doesn't
say that "Certified" teachers haven't taken this stuff for one reason
or another.  It just means that "Certified" teachers aren't required
to take this ( at leas in some states).  Most engineers have taken
some advanced math classes.
(i.e. partial diffeq, advanced calculus, fourier analysis, number
theory, maybe even topology).

I am a long ago, ex-engineer and I did have a lot of high-level math
background to bring to the classroom. While a strong background is important,
the ability to communicate mathematical concepts new to the students is more
important, in my opinion (sense of humor is almost as important). How many
times have I heard students tell me that their parent or so-and-so, an
engineer or otherwise skilled math person, was trying to help them but they
didn't understand the explanation.

I think that this engineer could offer a tremendous experience for
students, assuming that he will have a positive student teaching
experience, and will have the opportunity to teach and not
have to spend 30 percent of his time disciplining the students. <<<<

Ah, but then that's the problem, isn't it. Who can't do a good job teaching
something he/she understands if your audience is a group of intelligent
sponges, anxious to soak up every piece of knowledge imparted. Classroom
management, discipline, etc., I think, are every bit as important as pure
mathematical knowledge. Compare the amount of time that knowing LaPlace
transforms is important in the classroom compared to dealing with other
people issues. Certification and education classes try to address these
issues. I'm not a big fan of education classes, but a new teacher has to
learn teaching skills somewhere. Madelyn Hunter (sp?) and our district's
in-services based on her teaching techniques were more responsible for my
success in the classroom then classes in integral equations. My student
teacher from Berkeley, last year, knew plenty of math and could explain it
well. We spent most of our time together talking about questioning, wait time
and active participation. I hope it server her well.

Just my two cents worth.

Regards, Bill

I agree with you 100 %...
Now, my question is, how important to the education of our children is
the following:

a.  A teacher having a strong background in higher level mathematics
b.  A teacher having other classes such as physics, mechanics,
electromagnetic theory in order to know "How the heck can I ever use
this stuff?!?!?" when this question is posed by a student.
c.  Should states demand more of teachers than they do now?  I believe
they should.

Art Burke

I'm curious what you mean by "higher level mathematics"...that could be very
broad. In an ideal world, it would be nice if teachers teaching Algebra II had
at least a minor in math (not math ed, but _math_) and teachers teaching PreCalc
and Calculus had a major in Mathematics, not Math Ed. I have found that very
little of the courses I've taken at the graduate level would really affect the
high school material I present.

Students can be assigned to research that type of question. When I've tried in
the classroom to answer such questions, my answer seldom satisfy more than a
hand full of students, since any particular example I can come up with will not
end up to be an intended career choice for more than a couple of students.
Better yet is to let students become aware _in general_ of how math is important
in MANY careers rather than to try to field specific questions of particular
math topics.

Certification standards vary from state to state. I'm curious what you think the
current requirements are, and what you propose they should be? This is a very
broad and sweeping statement. In the context of this discussion, I assume you
mean "demand more" in the sense of raising requirements for certification,
rather than "demand more" in the sense of making current teachers perform more
duties and tasks.

Sheila King

In Texas, new college graduates wishing to teach at the secondary
level (grades 6-12) are required to obtain their degree in the field
they wish to teach in.  As Arthur Burke wrote,  he felt that
"certified" teachers do not have the math background required to teach
at the high school level, such as hard core calculus.

Being a new teacher in Texas, I tend to disagree with his statements.
I may not have an engineering degree, but I do have a Bachelor of
Science in Mathematics.  Belive it or not, I did take "hard core
calculus" courses;  in fact, the very first math course I took in
college was Calculus I, the same exact calculus that engineers were
required to take.  At graduation, I had accumulated a total of 39
semester hours of mathematics (with calculus being my lowest course),
21 hours of computer science courses, and 24 hours of education
courses.  All of this was completed within 3 years of my high school
graduation (not the standard four).

As if my degree was not enough to prove that I was competent in my
knowledge of mathematics, Texas has teachers pass a test, the ExCET,
in order to obtain their certification.  Although this test did not
cover some of the topology and abstract algebra courses that I took in
college, it did cover through Calculus.

Not everyone in my department is "certified".  The first math teacher
I think of who is not certified is an ex-engineer.  Maybe he has bad
test anxiety or something.  Besides, if less than 10 percent of high
school students take calculus in their lifetime, what is the big deal?
In most school districts that I have seen, it seems that only the
teachers who have taught for years and years in that district have the
"privilege" of teaching the upper-level math courses, so most new
teachers are placed in the lower math courses, which coincidentally
has a higher discipline problem rate.  Having just turned 22, I
imagine I will forget all of my calculus background (while teaching
algebra and geometry) before I am old enough to be eligible to teach
that course.

Sheila:

Yes, I think we need to demand more for the certification.
I had 2 teachers from Ohio email me asking me how in the world
could you figure out square roots without using calculators.
THESE PEOPLE SAID THEY ARE TEACHING ALGEBRA IN
SCHOOL!!DOESN'T THAT FRIGHTEN YOU?  It does me.
What in the world is wrong with asking math teachers in high
school to have a major in mathematics?  Also, having a background
in some physics, chemistry, electronics certainly would help.
Many students, as you well know, are constantly wondering
"Why do I need this?"  This is where talented people having
a solid mathematics background along with some solid engineering
physics courses could instantly throw out examples answering these
questions.
I also believe that we need far less time doodling around with
calculators and such and spend more time studying fundamentals
and mental arithmetic in earlier grades.
AND, If a student can't cut the mustard, fail them.  We need to
remain competitive in the classroom so that when Susie and Joey
get out there in the real world, they can compete and win!!!
Art

Are there no alternative methods for certification in Texas? In California, one
is also required to have a degree in their subject area. But, you can add
supplemetary authorizations to your credential by taking the NTE (National
Teachers Exam) in another subject area. I'm credentialed to teach German (I hold
a B.A. in that subject) and Mathematics (I passed the NTE in math). Therefore,
it is not difficult to get a credential to teach math without a degree in
mathematics in our state. The problem is that many students who actually go to
the trouble of getting a degree in math don't enter education, they go into
industry and make more $$$.

I think that this is the type of thing that Art is actually complaining about.
He is asking for tougher credentialing requirements, not realizing that some of
the teachers who are teaching do not hold a credential.

There are some topics in Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, and other high
level math classes that can actually impart a level of insight to a second year
Algebra teacher. I know that this past year the teachers in our Algebra II
classes (which didn't include yours truly) were teaching matrix operations and
determinants. None of these persons hold a math degree. What did they do? Taught
some formula memorization on how to compute things with matrices and then went
on to the next topic. I thought it was pretty pathetic. They don't understand
the _uses_ for this stuff, and I wouldn't see any point to teaching kids more
formulas without explaining what it can be used for and doing some problems that
employ these methods.

Don't worry. It was 13 years from the time I took Calculus until I taught it. It
did require an enormous amount of preparation the first year. But if you learned
the topic well and had a solid theoretical foundation, you will find that you
can reteach yourself again.

Sheila

Arthur,

First of all, yes, I am familiar with many examples of persons teaching
mathematics who are not as well prepared to do the job as you or I would deem
necessary. Certainly when I think of my ideal for a well prepared math teacher,
I would think that anyone teaching higher than 3rd or 4th grade math should
understand that concept of square roots and at least be able to give a guess and
check algorithm for estimating one to a handful of significant digits by pencil
and paper methods.

However, you did not really adress my questions. How do you know these teachers
you cite as examples were actually *certified* to teach math? In my previous
message I asked you the following:

You have not adressed what you think the certification standards are, and what
you think they should be. You are instead lamenting ill-prepared math teachers,
many of which I'd wager are not actually certified to teach math.

If indeed they are certified, then I would agree that the certification process
needs to be revamped.

The two individual teachers you cite above don't bother me near as much as the
teachers who don't know certain things and make no effort to find out, either.
At least these two teachers ASKED! There are probably teachers in the classroom
who are telling their students that they NEED a calculator to find the square
root of a number. :-(

Nothing is wrong with it. It's just that I know plenty of teachers who don't
even have a minor in math who are teaching it, and so even getting to that stage
would help. Being familiar with the facts that: (1) for many current high school
teachers, a minor in math would actually be an INCREASE in mathematical
knowledge over what they now posses, and (2) the additional courses required to
earn a bachelor's degree over a minor in math would have almost no effect on
courses including Algebra II and below, I would personally feel quite
comfortable with that requirement. For PreCalc and above, a major in math should
be required. Note that I write this knowing full well that I didn't even meet
these requirements that I suggest when I started teaching PreCalc five years
ago.

I can't disagree with what you write, but I wonder how many years you expect
someone to go to school simply to teach mathematics in a classroom, which is not
that high paying a job? I took many more units that required to get my degree
and a number of classes in other subject areas, including computer programming,
and don't see how I could have fit in even more without attending college for
something like 5 or 6 years in addition to my credentialing courses.

I have been confronted many times with this question, and it is one of the
things that prompted me to return to school for further education.

I think you overestimate the benefit that this has on most students. I'm married
to an engineer, and when I have asked him for examples about the current math
topic I'm working on he can usually name some. When I share these with the
students it doesn't seem to have that big of an impact. Personally I think
assigning each individual student to research and find out some uses of
mathematics to later be shared with the class would be more meaningful and
effective. Teachers do NOT have to be the person with all the knowledge in order
to disseminate it to the students. They need to know how to teach students to
find out the answers and point them in the right direction. It is highly
unrealistic to expect the majority of math teachers to have this type of
knowledge that you suggest, but what I suggest is easily implemented.

I have many times written here that I advocate restricted and structured use of
the calculators, and that for many things I prohibit them in my math classes.
Still, I find that this is another topic and another discussion entirely, and
does not relate to the questions I put to you regarding teacher preparation and
certification.

Again, another topic for another thread. I don't see that this has to do with
certification.

Sheila