Food Sales in Schools
P. Tierney
or local perspectives on this issue.
P. Tierney
------------------------------
FRANKFORT, Ky. -- After lobbying by school officials and soft-drink
bottlers, the Senate is poised to kill an effort to limit the sale of sodas,
candy and other snacks from school vending machines and canteens.
Senate Republican Floor Leader Dan Kelly yesterday filed a floor amendment
to have each school district study such sales, hold public hearings and
adopt a plan to comply with federal recommendations for addressing the
problem of overweight students.
But Kelly's amendment to House Bill 553 sets no standards or enforcement
provisions, and he acknowledged that local plans could be as little as
posting signs on drink and snack machines asking students not to use them
until after lunch.
Last night, Kelly said he ''got that amendment out to get discussion
going.'' Asked if something similar was the most likely outcome, he said,
''not necessarily.''
Earlier in the day, Kelly said Senate Republicans, who have a narrow 20-18
majority, prefer local control to a ''top down'' approach from the state
level. ''I would expect school boards would be responsive to their
constituents and do the job,'' he said in an interview.
The amendment would be a bitter pill for Lt. Gov. Steve Henry, a surgeon who
has made the bill his legislative priority and promoted it heavily around
the state as he prepares to seek next year's Democratic nomination for
governor.
''It's a sad day when large lobbying groups have that much influence over
our children's health,'' Henry said. ''I wish they would have looked at this
as though these children were their children.''
Kelly replied, ''I'm a father. I've got children in the schools. We presume
the local school boards, presented with the right information, will do the
right thing.''
Kelly, a Springfield lawyer, said Senate Republicans want to do something to
prevent obesity in children, but didn't like the bill's statewide approach
and its specific references, such as percentage figures to define candy and
set a minimum amount of real juice required in a juice product.
''We'd have to have an act of the General Assembly to respond to a new
product that might be offered,'' he said.
Kelly said he didn't know of any lobbyists ''who have influenced us on
this,'' but lobbyists for the Kentucky Soft Drink Association and the
Kentucky School Boards Association acknowledged they voiced concerns about
the bill, even after a Senate committee weakened it to allow softdrink sales
in middle schools after lunch.
As it had emerged from committee, the bill would generally ban the sale
during school hours of soft drinks, candy, chewing gum, juices with less
than 35 percent real juice, and other items, except seeds and nuts, that
contain more than 8 grams of fat per serving. High schools and middle
schools could sell soft drinks more than 30 minutes after the end of the
last lunch period.
Marty Bell, deputy to Jefferson County Public Schools Superintendent Steven
Daeschner, said the district favored the middle school change because ''if
kids could make that decision in high school, they could make it in middle
school. Kids are maturing at an earlier age.''
But Bell said the district did not work to change the bill after it left the
committee.
Libby Marshall, lobbyist for the state school board group, said it ''worked
to protect local decisionmaking rather than pass a state law and force
everyone into a mode that we think destroys creativity at the local level.''
Vending machine revenue is important for many schools, but Marshall said
that had nothing to do with school boards' feelings about the bill. ''We
know sales are going to rebound, regardless of what's in the machines,'' she
said.
She said vendors would replace prohibited items with permitted ones.
A University of Kentucky study found that canteens and vending machines
provide an average of $17,400 a year to high schools, $19,100 to middle
schools and about $9,000 to elementary schools. Also, vendors often give
schools scoreboards, ice machines and other incentives.
Henry, who has said it is shameful for anyone to make money at the expense
of children's health, put most of the blame for the proposal's demise on the
soft-drink lobby.
Its lobbyist, Ray Gillespie, acknowledged working on the issue but
disclaimed responsibility for Kelly's amendment.
The amendment would require each school district's food service director to
report to the school board and individual school councils on the
availability of items that aren't eligible for federally funded school meal
programs.
The report would have to include a plan for meeting the recommendations of
the surgeon general for addressing the problem of overweight students and
would have to be presented at publicly advertised meetings of the school
board and the school councils by Dec. 1.
Republican Rep. Tim Feeley of Crestwood, a co-sponsor of the original bill,
said Kelly's amendment ''waters it down to the point where I don't believe
it does any good at all.''
Feeley said he thought the bill would pass the Senate even if the amendment
were not added.
Magi D. Shepley
1. The schools frequently use this money for items for the students. In my
current school, the money funds some after-school clubs, and some of the
"extras" that the kids get, like partial funding of field trips.
2. Why can't they do what most places do? Don't allow soda machines in the
school, first off. Secondly, put timers on the machines. The worst thing they
ever did in my inner city middle school was to put Soda machines in the
hallways... ALL the hallways... we had more soda machines than bathrooms. And
they didn't put timers on them. The kids were always at them. Supposedly, we
got them so that we could get more consumable supplies, but since I was on the
grant/business partnership committee at the school, I know that the moeny didn't
go to our kids. It went to the superintendent's pockets.
3. I don't object to juice machines (VeryFine, MinuteMaid, etc) or bottled
water. I don't object to snack machines either... but I'd like to see them
with healthier options in them. The one in our teacher's lounge is awful...
there isn't a healthy thing to be found. They even stopped carrying the
"natural" no-butter popcorn they had last year. I don't think that soda
machines are necessary for students. Of course, the students always seem to
have soda available... their parents pack it in lunches or they pack it
themselves.
4. I think that the ultimate decision rests with the school board/community and
the parents. The state shouldn't be legislating this.
Magi
"P. Tierney" wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
Joni Rathbun
On 21 May 2002, Magi D. Shepley wrote:
> 4. I think that the ultimate decision rests with the school board/community and
> the parents. The state shouldn't be legislating this.
If they want to legislate something regarding schools and food, why
not support genuinely healthy choices in the cafeterias? Provide the
schools with groceries of decent quality! The school I'm in now does a
pretty good job with what it has but it could be a whole lot better.
For example, I wouldn't mind a kid-popular burger now and then if made
from lean meat instead of the patties of questionable content I see
now....
Meanwhile, I've gone into the food business in my library. We've
converted our workroom into a sort of mini Barnes & Noble/Starbucks.
We have nice, soft lighting, big round tables and comfy chairs,
and quiet music playing in the background. The Maitre'd seats
you and a waiter/waitress takes your order. Right now we have
big, fat pretzels and some coffee cakes made by the foods
classes... and a variety of frozen mochas. After our grand
opening this fall, we plan to add juices and milk and bottled
water. The catering department will be able to supply us with
occasional light specials (some pasta dishes, etc). We'll
also be adding audio book lunches and readings. We've set
aside space for an art gallery too -- to display student
work.
Any profits will go to supporting literacy efforts within
our school community.
It's proving to be *very* popular.
lousherry
punish everyone else because they are too lazy to straighten out their
own family!
Joni Rathbun
On Tue, 21 May 2002, lousherry wrote:
> If the kid is fat its their parents job to do something about it. Don't
> punish everyone else because they are too lazy to straighten out their
> own family!
I think you should keep in mind that some cases of obesity are genetic
in nature. Laziness is not necessarily an issue except to the arrogant
and ignorant.
JZAH
<ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote:
>Just a couple of thoughts:
>1. The schools frequently use this money for items for the students. In my
>current school, the money funds some after-school clubs, and some of the
>"extras" that the kids get, like partial funding of field trips.
The food sales at my present school partially fund my journalism
program and the band's instrument fund so I can't complain too
loudly. But like yours our school has too many machines on.
Ours are supposed to be turned off after take-in & remain off
until release but in fact they are on nearly all the time.
Sometimes they remember to control them and sometimes not. If
they turn them off though the children sneak into the teachers'
lounge to buy snacks and/or steal from the refrigerator.
We have one or two juice or bottled water machines but all the
rest are sugared punch, soda and sports drink machines. I get
sugar shock just watching the children bolt down those syrupy
drinks and chomp on that candy all day long. I get so tired of
them trying to sneak that crap in my classroom-- the carpet is
rainbow coloured with old punch stains and ground in melted
pieces of candy. If they kept the machines off I doubt this
would be a constant struggle.
J. Z. Al-Huriyeh
============================
"Everyone asks for peace,
but no one asks for justice."
Peter Tosh
"The individual Arab will hold
on to this country by his finger-
nails. The use of force will be
the only option left to us: an
evacuation with automatic rifles"
Aaron Zisling, August 2, 1937
20th Zionist Congress, Zurich
Kaye & Michael Vickery
Certainly a great idea to use in order to prompt positive attitudes to
reading.
K.
Joni Rathbun wrote in message ...
Kaye & Michael Vickery
have vending machines because of 2 main reasons: 1) vandalisism and 2) it
did not support the health policy which the schools were implementing and
asking families to support.
Tuckshops* have changed their menus significantly as well to reflect the
health policy of the school, and the follow the guidlines suggested by the
State Education and Health Departments.
K - who thought you might be interested in an international view.
* - schools where I am do not have cafeterias. Students eat their lunches in
the open areas. If they order food from the tuckshop, the order is placed in
the morning, and the child collects it at the start of lunch/morning tea.
After saying this, some private schools where the boardings resiecens are on
the same 'block', provide food for all students (it's part of the tuition
costs) and are given in the dining room.
Mark Probert
"Joni Rathbun" <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.020521...@lab.oregonvos.net...
Mental laziness is the hallmark of the arrogant and ignorant.
Magi D. Shepley
instruction/vocational opportunities) and as a service to the staff. I was going to
use the funding to fund the CBI program, and if there was any left over, I wanted it
to go to the library or something.
Magi
Joni Rathbun wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
lousherry
P. Tierney
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:3CEACF4B...@concentric.net...
> Just a couple of thoughts:
> 1. The schools frequently use this money for items for the students. In
my
> current school, the money funds some after-school clubs, and some of the
> "extras" that the kids get, like partial funding of field trips.
It is nearly always used for school things here. The question is, is it
worth it, or should the schools do without and/or find other ways to
fund such things? More on that below.
> 2. Why can't they do what most places do? Don't allow soda machines in
the
> school, first off. Secondly, put timers on the machines. The worst thing
they
> ever did in my inner city middle school was to put Soda machines in the
> hallways... ALL the hallways... we had more soda machines than bathrooms.
And
> they didn't put timers on them. The kids were always at them.
This is exactly how it is at my (now) former school. We have about a
dozen
soft drink machines, plus snack ones, all without timers. They are filled
up daily. We also have a school "mini-mart" run by the students as a
part of our business program. Before and after school, they are open daily.
And, certain teachers sell things for their clubs/sports between classes.
One irony to it is that we are also a "Health Promotions" school.
However, with so much money coming in from these things, and more
being added each year, the administration just looks the other way.
They also occassionally get on teachers like myself who have
spills in their rooms, and mine is carpeted. But they still want the
money. I refused to ban soft drinks from my class, as many teachers
did. I couldn't be a part of a school that tempted students with such
things on one end while prohibiting them on another.
> 3. I don't object to juice machines (VeryFine, MinuteMaid, etc) or
bottled
> water. I don't object to snack machines either... but I'd like to see
them
> with healthier options in them.
The bill that the state legislature allowed for that. There was a
list at some point, but various juice and water drinks were okay,
as were certain traditionally healthy snacks, as well as ones
like Baked Lays which were deemed acceptable. I'm unsure as
to what the exact criteria was.
There was a district in Virginia (or West Va.) that implemented
such a change. Despite predictions of failure, the overall sales didn't
drop off at all. When students were hungry or thirsty, they bought
what was there.
> 4. I think that the ultimate decision rests with the school
board/community and
> the parents. The state shouldn't be legislating this.
I was all for it, and still will be if it comes up in the future.
Even "health" schools like mine cannot turn down all that money,
especially in times of budget cuts. They won't "do without" if
there isn't some prodding. So I was for it, and the bill looked
almost certain as if it would pass, but a last minute push by the
school districts and teacher's unions killed it.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
And I think he found that well-research statistic at his
"local college".
P. Tierney
"lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3CEC55A0...@lanset.com...
Joni Rathbun
On Thu, 23 May 2002, P. Tierney wrote:
>
> And I think he found that well-research statistic at his
> "local college".
>
Yeah, that's some college. Afterall, it granted him a PhD.
Joni Rathbun
On Thu, 23 May 2002, P. Tierney wrote:
> This is exactly how it is at my (now) former school. We have about a
> dozen
> soft drink machines, plus snack ones, all without timers. They are filled
> up daily. We also have a school "mini-mart" run by the students as a
> part of our business program. Before and after school, they are open daily.
> And, certain teachers sell things for their clubs/sports between classes.
>
> One irony to it is that we are also a "Health Promotions" school.
> However, with so much money coming in from these things, and more
> being added each year, the administration just looks the other way.
>
I don't really have a big objection to soda machines. Juice isn't
that much healthier. Many juices are nothing more than a sugary liquid
without much nutritional value at all, even if 100% juice.
What I've found ironic here is that p.e. teachers sell doughnuts in class
to earn money for the pe/athletic departments.
P. Tierney
"Joni Rathbun" <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote:
>
> > This is exactly how it is at my (now) former school. We have about
a
> > dozen
> > soft drink machines, plus snack ones, all without timers. They are
filled
> > up daily. We also have a school "mini-mart" run by the students as a
> > part of our business program. Before and after school, they are open
daily.
> > And, certain teachers sell things for their clubs/sports between
classes.
> >
> > One irony to it is that we are also a "Health Promotions" school.
> > However, with so much money coming in from these things, and more
> > being added each year, the administration just looks the other way.
>
> I don't really have a big objection to soda machines. Juice isn't
> that much healthier. Many juices are nothing more than a sugary liquid
> without much nutritional value at all, even if 100% juice.
I agree, but the bill in question had specific health, or lack of,
limits. So, some juices may not have been allowed either.
P. Tierney
Joni Rathbun
On 23 May 2002, Magi D. Shepley wrote:
> I *really* wanted to try something like this with my students (for community based
> instruction/vocational opportunities) and as a service to the staff. I was going to
> use the funding to fund the CBI program, and if there was any left over, I wanted it
> to go to the library or something.
The original cafe in our school is a "special ed" project and a huge
success. A number of the students from that project are volunteering for
my project. They're doing an awesome job! All the kids are. They
absolutely love it. I doubt I could list all these kids are learning.
And my daughter says our caramel mocha is better
than Starbuck's!
But I love the smoothies.
Kaye & Michael Vickery
read it before posting it (due to being called away.)
It should have read:
Most the schools in my area (and ones which I have had contact with) do not
have vending machines because of 2 main reasons: 1) vandalism and 2) it
did not support the health policy which the schools were implementing and
asking families to support.
Tuckshops* have changed their menus significantly as well to reflect the
health policy of the school, and to follow the guidlines suggested by the
State Education and Health Departments.
K - who thought you might be interested in an international view.
* - schools where I am do not have cafeterias. Students eat their lunches in
the open areas. If they order food from the tuckshop, the order is placed in
the morning, and the child collects it at the start of lunch/morning tea.
After saying this, some private schools where the boarding residence houses
are on the same 'block', provide food for all students (it's part of the
tuition
costs) and are given in the dining room.
Also, if children are not buying lunch they bruing it in a lunch box.
Mark Probert
Melissa
<snip>
> What I've found ironic here is that p.e. teachers sell doughnuts in class
> to earn money for the pe/athletic departments.
Yup. Our cheerleader moms sold Krispy Kremes before school as a fundraiser.
Melissa
lousherry
JZAH
<lous...@lanset.com> wrote:
>In 99.9% of the cases its laziness because they are fat and lazy.
Children's diets today are very bad. Juvenile onset diabetes and
obesity were once rare but now are at epidemic levels, and the
food is the reason. The American diet is lethal.
m miller
filling station where the kids go before or after school to load up on
whatever snack / junk items they have the money for....
I am not certain any lobbying effort will help....like another poster
stated here already, parents or the kids themselves will pack it to take
with them to school.
I've even caved in and will let my students bring soft drinks / water
into the room, BUT if I have to clean it up JUST ONCE, then never again.
So far, it's a privilege the kids seem to work for and enjoy. Each day
the helper monitors the situation, so I've not had any problems with
it....
Well, except for the kids in other rooms that complain that THEY can't
do in their rooms.....oh well!!
Matt
Martin Rowley
do in their rooms.....oh well!! "
"Oh well", is right. A few weeks ago I was just coming into the computer lab
where I teach (I have a class in another building the period before this)
and the teacher who just had a class in this computer lab jumped all over me
- one of my students had just came in and popped a music CD into one of the
computer's cd-rom drives and started playing it. The other teacher
complained to me that me that allowing students to do this was a big problem
as his students kept asking to do this in his classes and were complaining
that the other computer teacher allowed his students to do that. I assured
the other teacher that I did NOT allow my students to listen to music CDs
(either from the computer drives or their own cd players) and I don't know
why this particular student felt that he could do this - and I wrote that
student up for doing this in front of the teacher. I follow the campus
policy on music CDs very strictly.
Now flash forward a couple weeks later, I had to go over to this computer
lab to get something out of the file cabinet. This was during this teacher's
class period. I walk in and there are about a dozen students eating and
drinking in the lab. We have a very strict policy against food or drink in
the computer labs - this is mainly due to the fact that back when we did
allow it, some students ruined a laser printer by putting a candy sucker
inside the printer directly on the fuser assembly and leaving it to melt.
Plus, I can't tell you the number of candy wrappers and candy that I had to
dig out of the floppy / cd-rom drives. There are probably a dozen posted
notices in the room stating the no food or drink policy. I questioned the
teacher about these kids eating / drinking in class - "Oh, I let them as
long as they don't spill anything". I reminded him of the fit that he threw
a few weeks earlier when he thought I was allowing my students to listen to
music cds in violation to our lab / school rules. I asked him just how much
of a problem for me and the other computer lab teachers if our students
found out that his kids were getting to do this.
"Oh, well" was his response too.
I for one want to take this time to thank fellow teachers like you, ones who
for what ever reason feel that they can arbitrary pick and choose which
campus / school rules that you follow and which you don't. It really makes
life swell for the rest of us who are trying our best to follow the rules.
Thanks again.
Martin
P. Tierney
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> I for one want to take this time to thank fellow teachers like you, ones
who
> for what ever reason feel that they can arbitrary pick and choose which
> campus / school rules that you follow and which you don't. It really makes
> life swell for the rest of us who are trying our best to follow the rules.
>
Read his post again. He gave no indication that he was breaking a
school rule. Instead he, like myself, decided something for *his* class
that was within his jurisdiction, even though other teachers chose
otherwise.
P. Tierney
Martin Rowley
"school rule" concerning bringing food in - I just inferred that there might be
as he said "I've even caved in ..... ". Ours isn't a "school rule" either, but
rather a rule of the computer teachers - the "school rule" is that it is up to
the teacher's discretion. My mine "problem" with teachers going against the
rules and / or what the department decided. He mentioned, "kids in other rooms
that complain that THEY can't do in their rooms". This can cause anywhere from a
mild annoyance to a major headache to a teacher trying to follow the rules (even
if the rule is that of the individual teacher). I remember one year a teacher
here banned drinks in her room - even though several of the others teachers
allowed them in theirs. There wasn't a specific campus rule against having
drinks in class. A student complained and the teacher held firm, next thing she
knew the student's parents were on the phone to the campus principal and the
school board complaining that this teacher was clearly discriminating against
the students in her class and denying them privileges that the students in other
classes enjoyed.
Martin
"P. Tierney" wrote:
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
P. Tierney
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@tenet.edu> wrote:
>
> I reread his post and didn't see where it said that there was or wasn't a
> "school rule" concerning bringing food in - I just inferred that there
might be
> as he said "I've even caved in ..... ".
My impression was otherwise, but I'm sure that he'll clear it up.
> Ours isn't a "school rule" either, but
> rather a rule of the computer teachers - the "school rule" is that it is
up to
> the teacher's discretion. My mine "problem" with teachers going against
the
> rules and / or what the department decided.
I agree that it's a problem. Sensitive areas such as labs should be
allowed to make such things off limits, though I believe that the poster
was writing about his own particular classroom.
> He mentioned, "kids in other rooms
> that complain that THEY can't do in their rooms". This can cause anywhere
from a
> mild annoyance to a major headache to a teacher trying to follow the rules
(even
> if the rule is that of the individual teacher). I remember one year a
teacher
> here banned drinks in her room - even though several of the others
teachers
> allowed them in theirs. There wasn't a specific campus rule against having
> drinks in class. A student complained and the teacher held firm, next
thing she
> knew the student's parents were on the phone to the campus principal and
the
> school board complaining that this teacher was clearly discriminating
against
> the students in her class and denying them privileges that the students in
other
> classes enjoyed.
This is a pain, but it's just something that teachers have to deal with
if they choose to have such things in their rooms. But, IMO, *schools*
cannot push such money-making items while also banning them from
classrooms. If a teacher in a regular classroom chooses to do so, then
that is fine, that teacher must take the good (a cleaner room) with
the bad (occasional grief from students).
My belief, unpopular at my school, was that by filling the school
with machines not on timers, it is their unwritten policy that it
is acceptable to sell things at any time and, since class change
times are narrow, consume them in the classroom (though not
if I went with them to the Library, for example). The schools
cannot have it both ways.
P. Tierney
Magi D. Shepley
room gets warm, and we have no windows... so it can be stuffy. Some of my
students are with me for a double-block, so 180 minutes. That's a long
period to be in a tiny, stuffy room.
I only allow soda on specific special occasions, and those are VERY rare.
I've done it one time all year, and its was in one class. I'm more liberal
with juice... provided its really juice, and not sugary crud.
I admit though, I'm very bad about soda. I usually drink either seltzer or
soda...
Magi
m miller wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
Magi D. Shepley
classrooms. We have a school-wide policy on CD players, and on open drinks in
the hallway and on candy/gum in the hallway, but that is pretty much it for the
things you've listed.
Each teacher allows different things in their room. None of us allow gum, but
candy is okay if we give it to the students. CD Players are absolutely not
allowed, but I have a behavior policy in my 6th period class that they are
allowed to listen to music with headphones on the computer if they are doing
independent work on the computer. But the behavior policy was approved by the
8th grade assistant principal so that we could try and get that particular class
under control.
I allow water bottles because of the conditions on my room, but only my 7th and
8th periods have that privilege. My 5th period class in that room does not
because there are only 2 students, so the room doesn't get stuffy. 3rd period
isn't in that room nor is 6th period, so again, they do not have those
privileges.
Magi
Martin Rowley wrote:
> I for one want to take this time to thank fellow teachers like you, ones who
> for what ever reason feel that they can arbitrary pick and choose which
> campus / school rules that you follow and which you don't. It really makes
> life swell for the rest of us who are trying our best to follow the rules.
Remove all space cats to email.
Melissa
(over 100 some days) so I let the kids have water bottles. But no soda. I
usually have a bottle of Diet Coke or leftover iced coffee, myself.
Melissa
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:3CEEDA0A...@concentric.net...
m miller
Good heavens, that's a HUGE chip on your shoulder....I'd better
clarify my position before this entire post becomes more twisted that it
already perhaps is:
---The teachers in our building are at liberty to decide whether or not
they have drinks for students in their room. That, sir, is the policy,
and I do believe I am following that to the letter.
---This was in regards to DRINKS only...
somehow, you must feel I've opened a buffet with steam tables and a
dessert bar in my room for the students. They may bring in DRINKS...and
NOTHING more {nothing that is "chewed"....my students know EXACTLY what
I mean...they toy with me, they are BOUNCED!!!}.
---I am responsible for the control and the learning in MY room...if
students elsewhere wish to complain, that is THEIR prerogative. If the
teachers wish to complain, take it up with administration...I document
everything perhaps MUCH better than most teachers where I work, and can
easily prove I am following the policy.
---If another teacher chooses to NOT allow drinks in their room, this is
STILL not my problem. I am doing what I was TOLD I was allowed to
do...IF administration told me not to have students consuming beverages
or ANYTHING else, trust me Martin, they WOULD NOT DO IT IN MY ROOM.
I do not appreciate in the least your inference to ME not following
school rules...after having netted Teacher of the Year after just 4
years in my building, I must be following something right. My students
PERFORM and they LEARN.
So the "drink issue" is small compared to the bigger task that lay ahead
of me.
The students have taken responsibility to insure there are NO messes and
NO problems....or this drink situation will vanish like a belch in the
wind...AND THEY KNOW IT!!! Further, we have no computers or anything
else incredibly expensive that could be damaged by beverages unless
directly poured onto textbooks...and my students "guard" the drink
privilege VERY dearly...they don't want to lose it.
I've discussed this issue with the lady I team-teach with, and we
agree...since there are over 100 things the students CAN'T {not ALLOWED
to do}, we've decided to let them have ONE privilege.
Since we both drink in the classrooms, it made sense for us to try it.
So far, we've both met with success.
So, if other teachers don't allow it, fine. But don't complain to me,
saying I am the crux of the problem...if a teacher has problems
maintaining a respectable class environment based on the availability of
drinks in the classroom, I strongly suggest there are MUCH larger issues
at work...none of them including ME....
Matt
Martin Rowley
exactly what they are listening too? Are these CDs that you give them or are they
ones that they brought in from outside the school? Are they burned CD-Rs? One of the
reasons that our school bans listening to CDs either by the computer or their own
personal cd players it that many of the students listen to highly inappropriate
material. There are many parents that prohibit their children from having access to
this type of material while at home - but then these children borrow their friends
CDs and want to listen to them while at school.
How do you monitor what your students are listening to?
Martin
Martin Rowley
inconstancies in classroom permissions among teachers. I realize that you
feel that it ain't your problem when kids complain to the other teachers
that you allow your students to do things that they themselves are not. It's
not your class / lesson that is being disrupted by these complaints - so
what's it to you.
Why exactly do the other teachers not allow drinks in their rooms? Is it
because they have had problems in the past with allowing such privileges or
do they feel that it's just too much of a distraction? Do students in your
class get to leave during class to go to the soda machine and purchase
drinks? I know some of the teachers on my campus have pretty strict
classroom policies concerning bathroom visits during class - such an open
policy on bringing drinks into the classroom would probably play havoc with
such policies.
Martin
Kaye & Michael Vickery
If a similar situation occured in during your class, and you allowed it
(resulting with a broken laser printer) who foots the replacement bill? you?
the student who put the lolly (err candy) wrapper in the laser printer? or
the whole student body just because one teacher just happened to let the
students break an important rule.
I view this as being inconsiderate to fellow students (and possibly
teachers).
K.
P. Tierney wrote in message ...
P. Tierney
"Kaye & Michael Vickery" <aye...@in.com.au> wrote:
> One thing on this: (re: damage to computer equipment)
> If a similar situation occured in during your class, and you allowed it
> (resulting with a broken laser printer) who foots the replacement bill?
you?
> the student who put the lolly (err candy) wrapper in the laser printer? or
> the whole student body just because one teacher just happened to let the
> students break an important rule.
My post regarded that of the orginal poster, not Martin's situation.
They are two very different things.
That said, I don't know. Such a thing has not happened in my nine
years. My room sometimes was dirty -- I found that a place was being used
to dispense wrappers. But since most of those wrappers came from the
machine outside of my door, I didn't get too worked up about it.
If schools do not want candy/soda debris in schools, then first
get rid of the machines. Only then can they take the high ground.
P. Tierney
Magi D. Shepley
Martin Rowley wrote:
> When you let the students listen to music wearing headphones - do you check to see
> exactly what they are listening too? Are these CDs that you give them or are they
> ones that they brought in from outside the school? Are they burned CD-Rs? One of the
> reasons that our school bans listening to CDs either by the computer or their own
> personal cd players it that many of the students listen to highly inappropriate
> material. There are many parents that prohibit their children from having access to
> this type of material while at home - but then these children borrow their friends
> CDs and want to listen to them while at school.
>
> How do you monitor what your students are listening to?
I monitor what they are listening to because the behavior policy included a provision
that they must provide the CD to me 24 hours prior to the time they expect to be able to
listen to it. If they don't provide it, they don't listen. They also signed the
behavior contract that there would be NO inappropriate words or suggestive situtations
in the music or the privilege would vanish. Two of the students who used to have the
privilege lost it quickly because of the inappropriate music (they tried to switch CDs
from what they gave me to something else), and because they refused to turn it down. If
I can hear it with the earphones on, it is TOO LOUD.
Magi D. Shepley
Martin Rowley wrote:
> No I don't have a big chip on my shoulder - just a a big problem with
> inconstancies in classroom permissions among teachers. I realize that you
> feel that it ain't your problem when kids complain to the other teachers
> that you allow your students to do things that they themselves are not. It's
> not your class / lesson that is being disrupted by these complaints - so
> what's it to you.
Uhm, Martin... you're having a big issue with something that is an individual
teacher decision. There is one teacher on the special education team who NEVER
lets kids out to go to the bathroom. If I'm coverin her class, that is how we
play it, because that is her policy. My policy is more liberal. I allow them
to use the bathroom with their hall pass during the school permitted periods
(not the first or last 15 minutes of the class). They don't have a hall pass,
they don't go. Again, as part of the 6th period behavior plan, they have to buy
their hall passes... so if they have bad behavior during the week, that class
cannot go. I don't need to do that with any of my other classes, so I don't.
> Why exactly do the other teachers not allow drinks in their rooms? Is it
> because they have had problems in the past with allowing such privileges or
> do they feel that it's just too much of a distraction? Do students in your
> class get to leave during class to go to the soda machine and purchase
> drinks?
I don't know why other teachers do not allow it. Its not my business what they
do or don't do in their classes. We have one teacher that lets her kids get up
whenever and go to the water fountain. Its only a problem when they disrupt my
classroom, and I handle that. It stopped real fast. Students in my classroom
cannot leave whenever to fill their water bottles, they must ask and take the
hall pass.
> I know some of the teachers on my campus have pretty strict
> classroom policies concerning bathroom visits during class - such an open
> policy on bringing drinks into the classroom would probably play havoc with
> such policies.
Why? Your students can't distinguish between teacher policies in specific
classrooms? Even my special education students can handle that one!
Magi
Martin Rowley
the CD.
Thanks for the explanation.
Martin
m miller
If the students don't have their drinks in hand at the start of
class, Tough Crunchies!! They KNOW better than to ask to go their
locker for drinks, textbooks, paper, pencils, calculators, notes, and
what not....when that last bell rings, I start teaching....and the kids
BETTER be ready.
Restroom breaks? Well, what has worked for me is this...each
student gets 2 out of class restroom passes per MONTH....since we've
got 5 minute passing periods, this generally isn't a problem. These
don't accumulate....I've told my students that if I catch wind of this
policy being "shanked," then it vanishes.
So far, I've not had anyone use more than the two....and believe it or
not, I've got students who don't use this at all.
Students in my room know full well I am consistent in my policies.
I will NOT be taken advantage of, and so far, I've either been lucky or
the kids truly understand my rules.
Like any school, you will have your teachers that "moan and groan"
about anything they can dig up. This behavior is petty. I do NOT
complain, make note, discuss with, talk about, or pay attention to what
the teachers around me are doing, so far as what the kids are allowed to
do or not allowed to do....that isn't my business, and I stay out of it.
And, I've discovered, that the kids who complain the most about
ANYTHING {there's the girl who whines about the room temperature
CONSTANTLY, every day....too hot or too cold, it's NEVER just the way
she wants it} probably don't get much in the way of attention at home.
I am just guessing here, of course.
Students and adults alike must realize that some have varying
privileges....some teachers will take homework whenever...and some will
NOT accept it late no matter what. Some teachers don't mind kids
working in groups....yet others wouldn't hear of it. And on and on.
I will hold firm to this opinion....that because something is
permitted in my room and not another isn't an issue I am not going to
deal with....since it isn't my issue. This game could be played right
down to "who parked in my space"...yes,
we actually had a teacher in our building whine about this...if you can
believe it.
Come on now!!!
Matt
Martin Rowley
Martin
"Magi D. Shepley" wrote:
> Martin Rowley wrote:
>
> > No I don't have a big chip on my shoulder - just a a big problem with
> > inconstancies in classroom permissions among teachers. I realize that you
> > feel that it ain't your problem when kids complain to the other teachers
> > that you allow your students to do things that they themselves are not. It's
> > not your class / lesson that is being disrupted by these complaints - so
> > what's it to you.
>
> Uhm, Martin... you're having a big issue with something that is an individual
> teacher decision. There is one teacher on the special education team who NEVER
> lets kids out to go to the bathroom. If I'm coverin her class, that is how we
> play it, because that is her policy. My policy is more liberal. I allow them
> to use the bathroom with their hall pass during the school permitted periods
> (not the first or last 15 minutes of the class). They don't have a hall pass,
> they don't go. Again, as part of the 6th period behavior plan, they have to buy
> their hall passes... so if they have bad behavior during the week, that class
> cannot go. I don't need to do that with any of my other classes, so I don't.
Question, say that Matt's class is just before that of the teacher who "NEVER"
allows students to leave the classroom and go to the rest room. And lets also say
that one of Matt's students, who is also in this teachers class, fills up on water /
soda while in Matt's class period. For what ever reason this student can't / didn't
get a chance to make a pit-stop before the tardy bell rang and now has to sit
through an entire class period needing to use the rest room. Is this student going
to be able to learn as effectively as the other students? Which teacher individual
classroom policy is more at fault for this situation? The teacher that allowed the
student to tank up on fluids or the teacher that doesn't allow students to go to the
rest room? Who's class is truly affected by this situation, the former teacher of
the year who's students DO learn or the other teacher? Which teacher would you
suggest modify their class room policy? Which teacher is in violation of school
policy? Neither, as far as I can see.
My point is (and was) that what goes on in one teacher class can affect the classes
of other teachers. Sure Matt's students learn while in his class, but shouldn't the
other teachers expect the same focus of learning to go on in their rooms also?
Two other points:
1) many of my own students have behavioral / attention problems (as I would guess
would many of teachers here students). One of the key approaches that is always put
forth on successfully dealing with such students is being consistent with the
application of rules and permissions. Many of these students get "confused" when
there isn't a ridge structure for them to follow. Having permission to do something
in one teacher's class and not being allowed to do the same thing in another can
cause conflict. And do you think that this conflict is going to manifest itself in
Matt's class or the teacher that doesn't allow bathroom breaks? I take objection to
Matt's attitude of "So what ...".
2) I have had many students that, to put it simply - react badly after the
consumption of sugar and/ or caffeine. Basically the bouncing off the walls type
behavior. One of my best students behavior changed radically when his schedule was
changed to where he came to my class after lunch, rather than before. Yeah, Matt's
students may perform better since he "caved in" and let his kids have drinks, but at
what cost? At minimum all that it causes is some minor disruption from students in
other classes bugging their teachers in hoes that they will eventually "cave in"
also. Then again maybe it's more.
> > Why exactly do the other teachers not allow drinks in their rooms? Is it
> > because they have had problems in the past with allowing such privileges or
> > do they feel that it's just too much of a distraction? Do students in your
> > class get to leave during class to go to the soda machine and purchase
> > drinks?
>
> I don't know why other teachers do not allow it. Its not my business what they
> do or don't do in their classes. We have one teacher that lets her kids get up
> whenever and go to the water fountain. Its only a problem when they disrupt my
> classroom, and I handle that. It stopped real fast. Students in my classroom
> cannot leave whenever to fill their water bottles, they must ask and take the
> hall pass.
Why is it none of your business what the other teacher's do or don't do in their
classes? How is any consistency in class room management expected to take place if
you don't know? One of the main themes that I get from this thread is that most of
the teachers feel that there is a double standard expected in that there are these
snack / drink machines available on campus and then they are expected to police the
candy / drinks in their classrooms. Seems to me that the administration feels that
it's not the business or concern of the teachers that these machines are on campus.
A couple of years ago all the soda machines on our campus vended the 20 oz. bottles.
The teachers hated this as it made it way too convient for students to grab a bottle
in the morning and carry it around with them all day. The teachers lobbied the
administration to get the bottle machines changed out to 12 oz. can machines. Having
no way to reseal the open can usually resulted in the student finishing their soda
in a short time and pretty much eliminated the students from sneaking in drinks in
their bookbags. The change worked great - of about a year, then the school board in
their wisdom (and against the suggestions of campus administrators / teachers)
re-negotiated the soft drink contract and let the vending company to replace the can
machines with the more profitable (for them) bottle ones - and again our problems
returned.
> > I know some of the teachers on my campus have pretty strict
> > classroom policies concerning bathroom visits during class - such an open
> > policy on bringing drinks into the classroom would probably play havoc with
> > such policies.
>
> Why? Your students can't distinguish between teacher policies in specific
> classrooms? Even my special education students can handle that one!
Your's can? Funny, one of the things that is always brought up in the ARDs I attend
is the need to be consistent in the policies that my SE students operate under. In
fact it's usually spelt out fairly clearly in the IEPs that I get issued and am
expected to follow. I guess this isn't an issue with the students on your campus.
sf
Good for you!
````````````````````````````
On 25 May 2002 13:40:02 GMT, "Magi D. Shepley"
Martin Rowley
Martin
m miller wrote:
> Martin:
>
> If the students don't have their drinks in hand at the start of
> class, Tough Crunchies!! They KNOW better than to ask to go their
> locker for drinks, textbooks, paper, pencils, calculators, notes, and
> what not....when that last bell rings, I start teaching....and the kids
> BETTER be ready.
>
> Restroom breaks? Well, what has worked for me is this...each
> student gets 2 out of class restroom passes per MONTH....since we've
> got 5 minute passing periods, this generally isn't a problem. These
> don't accumulate....I've told my students that if I catch wind of this
> policy being "shanked," then it vanishes.
> So far, I've not had anyone use more than the two....and believe it or
> not, I've got students who don't use this at all.
How many other teachers have a similar "two passes per month" policy and do
any have a no pass policy. (I know that this might be hard for you to
answer, given your statement that you don't concern yourself with what the
other teachers do.) One of the problems I have with you allowing drinks
where other teacher do not, is that usually what goes into these students
must come out. It probably doesn't happen during your class period as this
is when they are consuming the fluids, but I bet if you did make it a point
to confer with your fellow teachers - especially the ones that get your
students after being in your class - there's probably a big chance that
there are lots of requests to go to the bathroom from the students in their
classrooms. I'm assuming that your "two pass per month" is to keep classroom
disruption to a minimum. Shouldn't your fellow teachers expect the same
consideration in their classes? But then again, you expressed that your
attitude is "So what..". Guess that's why you were teacher of the year and
they weren't.
> Students in my room know full well I am consistent in my policies.
> I will NOT be taken advantage of, and so far, I've either been lucky or
> the kids truly understand my rules.
Funny, in your first post on this subject you stated "I've even caved in and
will let my students bring soft drinks / water into the room, ...", sounds a
lot to me that you are not consitant and can be taken advantage of. maybe I
miss read what you wrote.
Of course the students "truly understand" your rules - you're allowing them
to do something they want to and that the other teachers don't. The problem
comes when they don't understand the rules of the teachers that prohibit
them from drinking sodas in their class rooms. But as you made clear, that
those teachers problem, not yours.
> Like any school, you will have your teachers that "moan and groan"
> about anything they can dig up. This behavior is petty. I do NOT
> complain, make note, discuss with, talk about, or pay attention to what
> the teachers around me are doing, so far as what the kids are allowed to
> do or not allowed to do....that isn't my business, and I stay out of it.
I'm confused, you are the second teacher in this particular thread that has
expressed the sentiment that what other teachers do in their classroom is no
business of your, nor is it any business of these other teachers what you do
in yours. I may be strange in thinking that such thinking is contrary to the
operation of the typical public school campus, maybe I'm wrong in thinking
this.
> And, I've discovered, that the kids who complain the most about
> ANYTHING {there's the girl who whines about the room temperature
> CONSTANTLY, every day....too hot or too cold, it's NEVER just the way
> she wants it} probably don't get much in the way of attention at home.
> I am just guessing here, of course.
".....probably don't get much in the way of attention at home." That's a
pretty cold way of looking at it (pun intended) - did you ever consider that
it might actually be too hot or cold to her? Some of my students have
sensitivity to certain environmental conditions - sounds too loud or too
soft, too much light or not enough. I wouldn't be surprised if the room was
uncomfortable to this particular student and I would also make a guess that
this has a effect on her concentration and learning. I tend to be more
considering to the complaints of my students.
> Students and adults alike must realize that some have varying
> privileges....some teachers will take homework whenever...and some will
> NOT accept it late no matter what. Some teachers don't mind kids
> working in groups....yet others wouldn't hear of it. And on and on.
You seem to not care if your policy of drinks in the class room might cause
other teachers problems in their class rooms or with their students.
According to you that their problem not yours, which to me sounds as if
responsibility isn't something that you yourself own up to.
>
> I will hold firm to this opinion....that because something is
> permitted in my room and not another isn't an issue I am not going to
> deal with....since it isn't my issue. This game could be played right
> down to "who parked in my space"...yes,
> we actually had a teacher in our building whine about this...if you can
> believe it.
> Come on now!!!
We have the same problem of people parking in others teacher's parking
spaces. Each teacher is assigned a particular number spot and that is
suppose to be their individual spot. Unfortunately there are some teachers
that consider it a moot point as to which spot they park in. Last year the
teacher with the best spot right next to the main entrance hardly ever got
to park in her spot as there always was some other teacher who parked there.
The reason this one teacher was given such a choice spot was she was teacher
of the year for the previous year. man, you should have heard her bitch when
she had to park in the far remote lot. Guess some teachers are just whiners.
We still get a laugh about the one instance of this, the teacher got so mad
at people continuing taking her spot that she put her truck in reverse
instead of forward and accidentally backed into the offending car.
>
> Matt
P. Tierney
>
> My point is (and was) that what goes on in one teacher class can affect
the classes
> of other teachers. Sure Matt's students learn while in his class, but
shouldn't the
> other teachers expect the same focus of learning to go on in their rooms
also?
So then why can't all of those teachers change to Matt's way of
doing things? Why must he change?
> Your's can? Funny, one of the things that is always brought up in the ARDs
I attend
> is the need to be consistent in the policies that my SE students operate
under.
Then the *school* should create those rules of consistency as a whole.
Teachers shouldn't do it haphazardly, IMO. That will also lead to
inconsistency.
P. Tierney
JoshC...@infoave.net
P. Tierney
"Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3CEFCCBF...@swbell.net...
>
> Guess that's why you were teacher of the year and they weren't.
I've often heard (usually bitter) teachers complain that the
"popular" teachers were somehow easier in some way. It's
never warranted, always an ugly thing to hear.
> You seem to not care if your policy of drinks in the class room might
cause
> other teachers problems in their class rooms or with their students.
> According to you that their problem not yours, which to me sounds as if
> responsibility isn't something that you yourself own up to.
Again, why is it up to him to change? Why can't they? If it's
that big of a problem, then the school should address it as a whole.
You seem to want teachers to create unwritten school rules.
I say that if you want them, have them written.
P.
Tierney
Martin Rowley
Martin
"P. Tierney" wrote:
> "Martin Rowley" <kmro...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > My point is (and was) that what goes on in one teacher class can affect
> the classes
> > of other teachers. Sure Matt's students learn while in his class, but
> shouldn't the
> > other teachers expect the same focus of learning to go on in their rooms
> also?
>
> So then why can't all of those teachers change to Matt's way of
> doing things? Why must he change?
Ok, all the teachers should allow drinks in the room and like Matt only allow
two trips to the bathroom per month. Sounds like there would be a problems
associated with following such policies - but I guess I'm in the minority of
people having concerns about this. If another teacher had a individual classroom
rule that conflicted with a classroom policy that you enforced - would you
change yours to match the other teachers? What makes Matt's policy any more
valid than the ones of the other teachers? How would you suggest a decision be
made as to which rule to follow? Majority vote?, administrative decision?, flip
a coin? And if, like in the case of my own situation, the department makes the
decision to ban drinks / food in the computer labs and one (or two) of the lab
teachers feel that that they pretty much ignore the department's decision? Do
you think that a situation like this might cause some conflict between the
teachers who are following the policy and those that do not (because it has). Do
such conflict have an impact on the overall classroom environment that the
students are exposed to? I think that it does. I think that it shows the
students that even with adult there are people that follow the rules and those
that do not. Personally I have a problem with that (as you may have guess by
now).
> > Your's can? Funny, one of the things that is always brought up in the ARDs
> I attend
> > is the need to be consistent in the policies that my SE students operate
> under.
>
> Then the *school* should create those rules of consistency as a whole.
> Teachers shouldn't do it haphazardly, IMO. That will also lead to
> inconsistency.
Isn't that what I've been trying to say? Or didn't that come across in my
writing? Schools "should" create and follow constant policies - but how is that
ever going to happen if the teachers have the sentiment that what goes on in my
room is my business not your, and what you do isn't any concern of mine? With a
atmosphere such as this I don't see how it would ever be possible for any such
consistency. Maybe I'm just a whiner.
>
> P. Tierney
Martin Rowley
hearing in both ears as well as (not sure of the right medical term for
it) a ringing / buzzing in his lft ear. The doctors he's visited are
pretty much in agreement that this is due to his listening to very loud
music with earphones. There wasn't a day that went by from teenager to
adult that he wasn't wearing his headphones. Now he wears a hearing aid
and tells kids to take it easy on the headphones or at least not turn it
up too loud.
Martin
toto
You know, it seems to me that students ought to be able to handle
cleaning up after themselves. Why are we so shy about this. Our
solutions involve getting rid of the *problem* by skirting around it
instead of working to insure that kids learn to use things properly.
Kids and adults ought to be able to use a waste basket or garbage
can when they do eat and drink. Accidental spills may be inevitable
which is why food and drink need to be kept away from sensitive
equipment like computers, but in a regular classroom, the natural
consequence of a spill is to have the student clean it up. No big
deal if kids are taught early that we clean our own messes.
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
source unknown
toto
<kmro...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Why exactly do the other teachers not allow drinks in their rooms? Is it
>because they have had problems in the past with allowing such privileges or
>do they feel that it's just too much of a distraction? Do students in your
>class get to leave during class to go to the soda machine and purchase
>drinks? I know some of the teachers on my campus have pretty strict
>classroom policies concerning bathroom visits during class - such an open
>policy on bringing drinks into the classroom would probably play havoc with
>such policies.
>
>Martin
Such policies are controlling and contribute to the reasons that
students see schools as places where their lives are micromanaged
for no reason, imo. If a rule makes sense, then kids will be more
willing to obey it. If the rule is made by the community including
the students, they will have more stake in obeying it as well.
The latest brain research shows that kids need to be hydrated to
learn properly. While I would not encourage soda since it is a
non-nutritious drink and caffeine in many colas might contribute
to more problems then they solve, if we begin in elementary school
by allowing children to drink water when they are thirsty and to
eat something reasonably nutritious when they are hungry and to
go to the bathroom when nature calls, perhaps kids would be more
receptive to paying attention and learning in our classrooms in the
first place. Treat kids as responsible human beings and you will
get better behavior.
Imo, the school classrooms need a lot of restructuring to allow kids
to take responsibility and iniative. What we are doing currently
doesn't make much sense.
toto
>If it's too loud for you, you are too old.
>
She doesn't need a hearing aid to hear normal sounds
sf
````````````````````````````````````
On Sat, 25 May 2002 12:14:19 -0400, JoshC...@infoave.net wrote:
sf
On Sat, 25 May 2002 11:54:15 -0500, toto <scar...@wicked.witch>
wrote:
>
>Kids and adults ought to be able to use a waste basket or garbage
>can when they do eat and drink. Accidental spills may be inevitable
>which is why food and drink need to be kept away from sensitive
>equipment like computers, but in a regular classroom, the natural
>consequence of a spill is to have the student clean it up. No big
>deal if kids are taught early that we clean our own messes.
>
But then there's the attitude: "I'm not a maid, that's the janitor's
job:. I see it all the time. People do not accept personal
responsibility for much if anything around here. I've seen para's and
parents with the same attitude, which of course is passed on to
students/children. I notice the attitude spills onto city streets,
too.
Of course, attitudes vary according to area. It's called Civic Pride.
P. Tierney
>
> I think that it shows the
> students that even with adult there are people that follow the rules and
those
> that do not. Personally I have a problem with that (as you may have guess
by
> now).
It also shows that different adults have different standards and
expectations. There are most certainly differences among the
teachers at your school regarding both their teaching styles
and environment. Or am I wrong?
"Consistency" can take many forms. No one expects there not
to be layers and grey areas. Students can be noisy in the lunchroom,
but not in the library. Students can get up around the room to get
materials during active work, but not during a test. Students can
have a soda in Mr. X's room, but not in the computer lab. That's life.
Regarding some of your questions, students *must* be taught
to respect the rules of other environments. So teachers who
visit your lab and break the rules should be banned from the lab, IMO.
Regarding the others, I'm focusing on his class policy with drinks/food.
> > > Your's can? Funny, one of the things that is always brought up in the
ARDs
> > I attend
> > > is the need to be consistent in the policies that my SE students
operate
> > under.
> >
> > Then the *school* should create those rules of consistency as a
whole.
> > Teachers shouldn't do it haphazardly, IMO. That will also lead to
> > inconsistency.
>
> Isn't that what I've been trying to say? Or didn't that come across in my
> writing?
Well, a lot has been written. That is fine, and each school
has their own process for coming up with such things.
> Schools "should" create and follow constant policies - but how is that
> ever going to happen if the teachers have the sentiment that what goes on
in my
> room is my business not your, and what you do isn't any concern of mine?
Schools set some policies school-wide. One would think that those
policies that are not schoolwide would be up to each teacher in her/his
room, don't you think? And if certain policies are left up to each
classroom, then no, it isn't any of your business. Some teachers
didn't like that way that *I* did certain things, but I don't see any
reason to change when I think that first, what I'm doing is best
for the students, and second, that it's within school rules.
> With a atmosphere such as this I don't see
> how it would ever be possible for any suchconsistency.
A question: Do you value consistency above your own
professional preferences? IOW, which choice would you choose:
a. The school creates a consistent policy where students can
take drinks anywhere they choose.
b. It's left up to each teacher and you still have the right to
ban drinks from your lab to any and all who enter.
Keep in mind that I brought all this up because I feel
that if a preference such as yours comes to pass (and as I
understand it, you think it best that drinks/food are not
in any classrooms?), then schools *must* remove all of
those machines or put them on strict timers. I'm not
objecting to that, or necessarily for it. But it's unfair to
the students to pepper schools with machines while not
allowing the students to consume the goods. Doing
otherwise, you would surely agree, sends an inconsistent
message to the students.
P. Tierney
P. Tierney
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote:
> >
> You know, it seems to me that students ought to be able to handle
> cleaning up after themselves. Why are we so shy about this. Our
> solutions involve getting rid of the *problem* by skirting around it
> instead of working to insure that kids learn to use things properly.
I agree, and I did do so. But there are always exceptions,
and those exceptions cannot always be caught, and that's a
part of the equation. There are ways to deal with that too, but
things will still happen.
P. Tierney
sf
IMO this is a case of blatant behavioral issues. My class of first
and second graders have a rule to "Plan Ahead" which means that if
action A leads to consequence B, then rethink A. So, if teacher A
allows as much water consumption as humanly possible and teacher B
does not allow bathroom breaks, it doesn't take a genius to figure out
that water intake should be moderated during teacher A's class.
High school students are too old to be treated like they are incapable
of making a mature decision. The real world is an inconsistent place.
Let them grow up! If it takes learning at the school of hard knocks,
then so be it.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````
On Sat, 25 May 2002 16:26:31 GMT, Martin Rowley <kmro...@swbell.net>
wrote:
>Comments below.
toto
>
>On Sat, 25 May 2002 11:54:15 -0500, toto <scar...@wicked.witch>
>wrote:
>>
>>Kids and adults ought to be able to use a waste basket or garbage
>>can when they do eat and drink. Accidental spills may be inevitable
>>which is why food and drink need to be kept away from sensitive
>>equipment like computers, but in a regular classroom, the natural
>>consequence of a spill is to have the student clean it up. No big
>>deal if kids are taught early that we clean our own messes.
>>
>
>But then there's the attitude: "I'm not a maid, that's the janitor's
>job:.
Yes, I know. We need to correct that attitude, but it starts in
early childhood, so it is harder to correct by high school.
>I see it all the time. People do not accept personal
>responsibility for much if anything around here.
So we work on this in school. It seems to me that just playing
into it isn't helping society much.
>I've seen para's and parents with the same attitude, which
>of course is passed on to students/children. I notice the attitude
>spills onto city streets, too.
>
Of course it does. So we need to combat that, not stick our heads
in the sand to make it easier for ourselves.
>Of course, attitudes vary according to area. It's called Civic Pride.
Yep. Or school pride perhaps?
toto
<silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>t also shows that different adults have different standards and
>expectations. There are most certainly differences among the
>teachers at your school regarding both their teaching styles
>and environment. Or am I wrong?
You know, this is another thing that we seem to think kids cannot
adjust too. But kids do adjust and they understand that different
people deal with them differently.
After all mom and dad usually don't do things in exactly the same
way, nor to aunts, uncles or grandparents. Kids figure it out.
Magi D. Shepley
was an excuse not to get the work done. Of course, those were the students who also lost the
privilege. And they were the ones that the policy was intended to help.
I don't think that anything would have really helped these kids at this particular point
though... both of them are no longer in my class because of various offenses. One attacked
the school resource officer, and the other grabbed me when I pulled him off the computer.
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
for me. I don't like loud noises or music.
Magi
JoshC...@infoave.net wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
Magi D. Shepley
Martin Rowley wrote:
> > Uhm, Martin... you're having a big issue with something that is an individual
> > teacher decision. There is one teacher on the special education team who NEVER
> > lets kids out to go to the bathroom. If I'm coverin her class, that is how we
> > play it, because that is her policy. My policy is more liberal. I allow them
> > to use the bathroom with their hall pass during the school permitted periods
> > (not the first or last 15 minutes of the class). They don't have a hall pass,
> > they don't go. Again, as part of the 6th period behavior plan, they have to buy
> > their hall passes... so if they have bad behavior during the week, that class
> > cannot go. I don't need to do that with any of my other classes, so I don't.
>
> Question, say that Matt's class is just before that of the teacher who "NEVER"
> allows students to leave the classroom and go to the rest room. And lets also say
> that one of Matt's students, who is also in this teachers class, fills up on water /
> soda while in Matt's class period. For what ever reason this student can't / didn't
> get a chance to make a pit-stop before the tardy bell rang and now has to sit
> through an entire class period needing to use the rest room. Is this student going
> to be able to learn as effectively as the other students? Which teacher individual
> classroom policy is more at fault for this situation? The teacher that allowed the
> student to tank up on fluids or the teacher that doesn't allow students to go to the
> rest room? Who's class is truly affected by this situation, the former teacher of
> the year who's students DO learn or the other teacher? Which teacher would you
> suggest modify their class room policy? Which teacher is in violation of school
> policy? Neither, as far as I can see.
Neither is violating school policy, but this doesn't seem to be a problem as far as I
can tell. What happens if the student comes from Home Ec or Gym or Lunch and goes to
the teacher who doesn't let kids go to the bathroom? In all classes, they can "tank up
on fluids" and need to go the bathroom. It happens a lot... especially since the
teacher in my building has a split lunch period, so kids either come to her directly
after lunch (7th graders) or go to lunch during her class (8th graders).
> My point is (and was) that what goes on in one teacher class can affect the classes
> of other teachers. Sure Matt's students learn while in his class, but shouldn't the
> other teachers expect the same focus of learning to go on in their rooms also?
>
> Two other points:
>
> 1) many of my own students have behavioral / attention problems (as I would guess
> would many of teachers here students). One of the key approaches that is always put
> forth on successfully dealing with such students is being consistent with the
> application of rules and permissions. Many of these students get "confused" when
> there isn't a ridge structure for them to follow. Having permission to do something
> in one teacher's class and not being allowed to do the same thing in another can
> cause conflict. And do you think that this conflict is going to manifest itself in
> Matt's class or the teacher that doesn't allow bathroom breaks? I take objection to
> Matt's attitude of "So what ...".
>
> 2) I have had many students that, to put it simply - react badly after the
> consumption of sugar and/ or caffeine. Basically the bouncing off the walls type
> behavior. One of my best students behavior changed radically when his schedule was
> changed to where he came to my class after lunch, rather than before. Yeah, Matt's
> students may perform better since he "caved in" and let his kids have drinks, but at
> what cost? At minimum all that it causes is some minor disruption from students in
> other classes bugging their teachers in hoes that they will eventually "cave in"
> also. Then again maybe it's more.
Again, what happens when they come in after lunch? I'd love not to let the kids outside
before my 6th period class, because they come to me pumped after playing basketball and
ingesting sugar, carbs and caffeine. I can't do that though... The school allows them
to go outside during the lunch period.
> > I don't know why other teachers do not allow it. Its not my business what they
> > do or don't do in their classes. We have one teacher that lets her kids get up
> > whenever and go to the water fountain. Its only a problem when they disrupt my
> > classroom, and I handle that. It stopped real fast. Students in my classroom
> > cannot leave whenever to fill their water bottles, they must ask and take the
> > hall pass.
>
> Why is it none of your business what the other teacher's do or don't do in their
> classes? How is any consistency in class room management expected to take place if
> you don't know?
Because I have no control over what that teacher does in her room behind her door. I
don't respect the "get up whenever you feel like and get a drink" policy, and her kids
take serious advantage of her... going in and out as many as 5 times in a 90 minute
period. But if they aren't disrupting MY class, it doesn't affect me... and I don't
have any business saying anything about her classroom management policy.
This same teacher, though, feels free to comment on *my* classroom management policy and
my teaching abilities. I dislike her attitude, and avoid her whenever possible because
of that.
> One of the main themes that I get from this thread is that most of
> the teachers feel that there is a double standard expected in that there are these
> snack / drink machines available on campus and then they are expected to police the
> candy / drinks in their classrooms. Seems to me that the administration feels that
> it's not the business or concern of the teachers that these machines are on campus.
We don't have snack machines or soda machines on campus that are accessible. They are
in the cafeteria, and only on during the lunch period. Wo betide a child caught trying
to use either machine outside of their lunch period. I'm not even certain that the
machines still work or are filled... I don't ever eat in the cafeteria, and the times
I've been in there, the snacks have been for sale at the register.
> A couple of years ago all the soda machines on our campus vended the 20 oz. bottles.
> The teachers hated this as it made it way too convient for students to grab a bottle
> in the morning and carry it around with them all day. The teachers lobbied the
> administration to get the bottle machines changed out to 12 oz. can machines. Having
> no way to reseal the open can usually resulted in the student finishing their soda
> in a short time and pretty much eliminated the students from sneaking in drinks in
> their bookbags. The change worked great - of about a year, then the school board in
> their wisdom (and against the suggestions of campus administrators / teachers)
> re-negotiated the soft drink contract and let the vending company to replace the can
> machines with the more profitable (for them) bottle ones - and again our problems
> returned.
That is something you need to take up with your school board, the way the teachers in my
old middle school did with the soda machines we had. The teachers weren't listened to,
and the electrical system in our school was bad. When we started having issues with
computer equipment because the system couldn't handle the machines and the lights and
the computers... the principal pulled the plug on the machines. I respected her for
that, even though she caught it from the superintendent. Apparently other districts
respected her too, because she is now a principal in another district.
> > > I know some of the teachers on my campus have pretty strict
> > > classroom policies concerning bathroom visits during class - such an open
> > > policy on bringing drinks into the classroom would probably play havoc with
> > > such policies.
> >
> > Why? Your students can't distinguish between teacher policies in specific
> > classrooms? Even my special education students can handle that one!
>
> Your's can? Funny, one of the things that is always brought up in the ARDs I attend
> is the need to be consistent in the policies that my SE students operate under. In
> fact it's usually spelt out fairly clearly in the IEPs that I get issued and am
> expected to follow. I guess this isn't an issue with the students on your campus.
Yea, mine can. Consistency does not mean rigid rules in every classroom across every
subject. There is no way to do that for just special education students.
I do have students who complain that I won't allow them to the bathroom during the 15
minute period the school doesn't allow... and I tell them nicely that they are lucky I
let them go at all.
Magi D. Shepley
words here. In undergrad and grad school, we've always been permitted to have
drinks and food. In the latter, if we hadn't been permitted that, I think I
would've really had issues sometimes... especially when I had classes back to
back during summer session!
Why is it that college students can be trusted but middle and high school
students cannot? I don't see a whole lot of different in the maturity level of
some!
Magi
toto wrote:
P. Tierney
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:ksoveu07kaqfib55f...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 25 May 2002 18:27:31 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> <silvi...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> >t also shows that different adults have different standards and
> >expectations. There are most certainly differences among the
> >teachers at your school regarding both their teaching styles
> >and environment. Or am I wrong?
>
> You know, this is another thing that we seem to think kids cannot
> adjust too. But kids do adjust and they understand that different
> people deal with them differently.
Theycertainly do, especially in a high school like mine in
which they have seven different teachers each and every day.
P. Tierney
JZAH
<ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote:
>I tend to agree with Dorothy. Politeness and responsibility should be the watch
>words here. In undergrad and grad school, we've always been permitted to have
>drinks and food.
I think what we see is the many suffer because of a few. I don't
have problems with drinks or food per se. I just can't stand the
mess the children make. After having my room infested by sugar
ants my first year teaching, I forbade food and drink and wrote
up those who refused to comply. I can't work in a filthy,
infested dump.
J. Z. Al-Huriyeh
============================
"Everyone asks for peace,
but no one asks for justice."
Peter Tosh
"The individual Arab will hold
on to this country by his finger-
nails. The use of force will be
the only option left to us: an
evacuation with automatic rifles"
Aaron Zisling, August 2, 1937
20th Zionist Congress, Zurich