> private school system) has pretty much decided that we will eventually be > changing our high school to a block schedule. This is in spite of the fact that > the majority of the faculty on staff do not believe this to be in the best > interest of our students. > Who the heck will save these kids? You expect the teachers to do it? Damn it, > but I'm tired every day I come home from work and I don't feel like fighting > these battles alone. How about the parents and community joining in? After all, > don't the schools belong to the parents and the community? If you ask me, they > are getting exactly what they want and are willing to support. Still, some of us > teachers do try to do what we think is in the best interest of the students, in > spite of the opposition we get from both admin and parents.
> Sheila King > ( snipped somewhat)
Sheila,
I believe you, and I back you. Thank you for caring about what you do, but are there *any* teachers in your school that shouldn't be there for any reason of which you can think? I believe that the problems in our system are coming from all directions, teachers that don't care, students that are apathetic, parents that aren't sure what grade their children are in, much less what they are doing at school, administrators that are bean counters and a society that believes that schools should be mommy, daddy and baby sitter to their children.
What kind of things could parents and the rest of your community do to help the situation. Come on, give us some ideas no one can help if we don't know what you need exactly.
Michael Hodges <mwhod...@msn.com> wrote in article <01bbce4d$8666ac60$ee439...@178136520worldnet.att.net>...
> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so > poorly compared to foreign students?
This is a very interesting discussion in this newsgroup so far.
I'm not sure that I qualify as an expert, but I have trained elementary school teachers all over the U.S. in a hands-on math curriculum for the past ten years. I have held parent meetings and seminars about math education. We have also hosted foreign exchange students in our home from several different countries. Here are a few of my theories:
1. The data is misleading. Most countries do not have as many students taking higher level math and science courses as ours. The tracking towards college vs. professional school starts in some countries around 6th grade.
2. Most of the elementary school teachers are language arts lovers; very few really like math that much. Consequently they do more creative units and spend more time on other subjects and just do what they have to do with math (too often teaching straight from the books). Many students sense these insecurities and dislikes. Many of them are bored with math, especially if the teacher doesn't understand it well enough to teach it in an interesting and creative manner. You don't send your child to a music teacher who hates music... why math and science? Unfortunately many students have a very poor attitude towards math and science before they get to algebra and biology.
3. Math and science teachers in some countries are more highly trained in their respective areas. Many college math and science majors are hired by industry for higher salaries than they would make teaching math and science. Consequently for teachers in the U.S. you get education majors with only a few courses in math and science. My sons have had algebra teachers who said that they had had only 3 or 4 college math courses. One of them even admitted that she had to have her son help her through them because she couldn't understand it.
4. With all the current corporate downsizing I believe we could get some really good math teachers if the school systems would pay for years of experience in industry and not only years of teaching. In most places a person who has been an engineer, chemist, etc. for 30 years must start teaching at the same salary as a 22-year-old college grad. Plus they would have to go back to college to get their education courses before they could get a teaching certificate, even if they had been doing corporate training courses for years. Where's the logic in that?
5. Our attitudes in this country about math are different. How many times have you heard an adult say (or maybe said yourself), "I'm no good at math. I never liked it and didn't do very good at math in school. Get someone else to help you with your homework."??? Women are especially bad about saying that to children. How can you expect a child to learn it when mom or dad couldn't do it either? But no one ever says, "I never could learn to read. I understand why you're having trouble with that." It's socially acceptable to be poor in math, but not to be illiterate. Exchange students that I've asked about this tell me that it's not as common in their countries to have people admit they aren't good in math.
These are my opinions -- worth only what you paid for them! My apologies to the good math and science teachers out there -- we desperately need more like you.
Joanne Leavitt <ac...@lafn.org> wrote in article <1996Nov11.051733.12...@lafn.org>...
> Richard, I like a lot of what you have to say, but am dismayed by > your trashing of the program for pregnant and parenting teens. > To me, this is one of the most effective programs we have developed > locally.
Joanne, I agree with you. As a country we must develop everyone to their full potential. Alan Tubman
Richard, I like all of your postings. You are providing good insights. But the only mess-up is you left out the web address of your posting below. I would like to get it. Thanks, again. -- Michael Hodges mwhod...@msn.com
.htm
Richard <richa...@southconn.com> wrote in article <32856B96.3...@southconn.com>...
> Just came across this web site. I didn't examine it long and I don't > know what there objective is but they have some interesting info, some > that we discussed briefly.
Dick, I think you are very right. The only Math course my kids took in highschool that they could see the use for was Statistics. Most schools don't teach this, but it is an easy way to bring math into the real world. Things kids have a "real world" interest in like baseball stats can be used. Not to mention a link with Political Science courses. <g>
-- I am not young enough to know everything. James M. Barrie
Richard, I like a lot of what you have to say, but am dismayed by your trashing of the program for pregnant and parenting teens. To me, this is one of the most effective programs we have developed locally. Our girls stay in school, they learn effective parenting skills, proper nutrition for their children, and have far fewer second pregnancies in the next five years than the girls who do not opt for the program. We have taken it one step farther and our city provides childcare, not babysitting, but effective early child- hood education, for two years of community college. This is an investment. these girls will come out with skills that will allow them to effectively support their children and the proper training to be good parents. We are talking nationally about breaking the chain of welfare involvement...this is one of the most cost effective ways I have seen to do so.
-- I am not young enough to know everything. James M. Barrie
>> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so >> poorly compared to foreign students?
>>snipped> >> -- >> Michael Hodges >> mwhod...@msn.com
Last year I encountered a young lady who had met all requirements for a BA in microbiology-- except passing a calculus course. A very bright, dedicated student. She was distraught because she had flunked calculus three times, and halfway through the term she was flunking it again. I offered to tutor her, and after two sessions her problem was obvious: she had never been taught in high school algebra to write her calculations in a neat, organized fashion and to check her accuracy at each step. It took two more sessions to straighten her out, and she earned a B by the end of the term.
What went wrong in high school? I'm not sure, but I'd guess her teacher either didn't know how to diagnose her problem or did not demand a high standard of performance. Or maybe the class was too big. I'll bet the four hours of one-on-one that I spent with her was more than she got from her high school teacher in two years of algebra.
================================================================== | Steve McGrew, President | ste...@comtch.iea.com | | New Light Industries, Ltd. | Phone: (509) 456-8321 | | 9713 W. Sunset Hwy | Fax: (509) 456-8351 | | Spokane, WA 99204 USA | http://www.iea.com/~nli | ==================================================================
As a teacher of 28 years in the public schools, I offer some insight, but not expertise, on the topic.
When I started teaching 28 years ago, the school was the center of the community, the parents knew what their children were doing both at school and at home, the parents knew where their children were, and the parents were acting as parents. They had not "given the children to the school."
At the present, this is not the situation. The school is not central to the community, the parents frequently see their children only on weekends, they do not know where their children are, what they are doing, and with whom they are spending time. The parents have "given their children" to the school/school system. They are all too often too busy with making money to afford fancy houses and cars to worry about anything other than themselves.
While it is true that there are teachers who should not be teaching, there are also lawyers who should not be lawyering, doctors who should not be doctoring, etc. The ed.bus. is not the only site of incompetent members.
Along these lines, there are people who are trying to run education lke a business -- schools are not a business. The same principles cannot be applied to turning out students as can be applied to turning out refrigerators, cars, whatever. We must remember also, that the warranty that comes with those products is based upon not only the factory work but also on the raw materials. When we can get guaranteed raw materials, we can probably begin to guarantee our products.
As one with a vested interest in math and science, I can only say "Amen" to some of the comments I have read. Many teachers do not feel comfortable with math and science, therefore they neglect these topics, particularly at the elementary level; however, as has also been pointed out the US tries to teach EVERY student the same thing, if possible. The idea of determining what a child's fate is going to be when that child is in the lower grades is anathema to the American Education System (whatever that means). We believe that everyone should be given the opportunity to succeed.
I do not presume to say that every student CAN succeed as highly as every other student; however, given the capability of the student, he should be given as much opportunity to succeed as any other child. This is the "American Way".
With regard to the removal of incentives and rewards for excellence, I agree with several writers. These spur people on. At the present time there is a regression toward mediocrity in the schools, but this is because we want to make sure that they child doesn't "fail". If one does not fail in life, then one has not lived, IMHO. To never fail is to go through life without challenges. How many of us have never overcome an obstacle and not learned from it?
Concerning parental involvement. In my years in the classroom, the parents I have meet on back-to-school night have generally been the parents of the better students. These parents are involved with their kids, their kid's education, and their kid's life. They are being PARENTS not biological progenators.
What can teacher's do? Unless someone can figure out a way to convince the population at large of the solution, I'm afraid that there isn't much. The threat of lawsuit keeps many school boards /divisions from enforcing high standards because someone might fail and file suit over it. This mentality trickles down to the "teacher level", and many teachers succumb to it.
Many parents, and their corresponding children, want to go through life with no waves, nothing to disturb their own little life-style. They want to be warm, well-fed, and comfortable. If anything disturbs this, they want no part of it.
This may seem rambling, but that's often the way math and science types think -- one thought leads to another.
My advice to parents, and I am one -- a college freshman (who wants to be a teacher) and a high school sophomore, is to get involved with your child's education. Attend the PTA meetings, support the music program, go to public hearings and express your voice, serve on division committees, make the principal and/or superintendent aware of you and who you are. The squeeky wheel gets the grease -- just look at your division's budget and see where the money goes -- that's where the squeeks are.
Finally, on the math/science topic. I suspect that if you took our "best" and put them up against other nations' "best" we would do all right. There isi more to math and science than being able to work problems and take tests. How many of the students from these other countries can "APPLY" the knowledge that they have. My son, who went to a comprehensive high school (public) and his Odyssey of the Mind team regularly beat out the Math/Science/Technology Magnet school -- not because they were smarted (they weren't) but because they had developed teamwork AND they recruited people with different talents who could APPLY what they had learned. On a written test, they probably would not have done as well, but when push came to shove to prepare a USEFUL PRODUCT they won.
There is more to science and math than scoring well on international tests. Science is DOING, not memorizing for a test.
The opinions expressed in this posting are my own and do not necessarily reflect my school, my division, or my state. We in the education business are also seeking answers -- we know that there is a problem, now we want to fix it. But education is not a panacea, it is only a tool.
--- If it moves and shouldn't, use duct tape. If it doesn't move and should, use WD-40. Dave Button -- Science Department Osbourn Park High School Prince William County Public Schools 8909 Euclid Avenue Manassas, Virginia, 22111 Those who can, teach; those who can't teach find another occupation. Anonymous The second most important job in the world, second only to being a good parent, is being a good teacher. S. G. Ellis
There are a few things that are not being mentioned here, though I haven't read everyone most recent postings.
1. The students in many other countries are taught differently. They have different topics in the courses and those topics are often in a different order than the american texts. Few american schools teach algebra I in the seventh grade, for instance, as many asian schools do. One of my african students had an algebra/general science book that did not do into nearly as much depth in either course as an american algebra or science book would, but the students got a more immediate sense of the material. Just different, not necessarily better or worse. These differences show up in standardized testing because some students haven't seen all of the material or have not dealt with in the same ways.
2. To those who complain that immigrant students or international students are better, remember the laws of selection. Parents who are willing to pack up a family and move around the world to start over from scratch have initiative, desire to improve life, and an unwillingness to bear injustice or the status quo. Is it any wonder their children are more motivated to study four and five hours each night? Students who are sent to this country for an education also are "selected." Education is expensive. Most likely, funds would not be spent on a weak student.
3. A third point: If this country is so terrible, why does the rest of the world send their children here? The answer is that we are good in math and science, despite what the press reports have said. In this country, any student, regardless of intelligence or disability, can get a good education, if he or she wants it. Poorer students have to work harder to get it but it can be done.
4. Finally, why do public school always seem to fare worse than private schools? The answer again is simple: selection. The private schools don't accept anyone below a certain ability; of course their averages are higher.
James, I liked your contribution. Hope you don't mind if I repeat some of it. Your comment<<With regard to the removal of incentives and rewards for excellence, I agree with several writers. These spur people on. At the present time there is a regression toward mediocrity in the schools, but this is because we want to make sure that they child doesn't "fail". If one does not fail in life, then one has not lived, IMHO. To never fail is to go through life without challenges. How many of us have never overcome an obstacle and not learned from it?>>
Your observations on this point appears to coincide with that of many other teachers here. How, in your opinion, could this <regression toward mediocrity in the schools> be reversed, as it appears you think this a must?
Your comment<<The threat of lawsuit keeps many school boards /divisions from enforcing high standards because someone might fail and file suit over it. This mentality trickles down to the "teacher level", and many teachers succumb to it.>>
This lawsuit threat thing crops up all over the place, and is conveniently used by many to justify non-action - - in my experience. Example: local police will not provide a requesting parent with driver violation info on his kid so he can try and find out some inside info for control purposes - - might be sued. My mother was in the hospital last week on voting day and wanted to vote absentee. I got the ballot for her, but hospital employees refused to sign as witnesses - - could be liable for lawsuit. The local fire department refused to make recommendations to a requesting homeowner as to best way to eliminate an old, rusting in-ground LPG gas tank - - could be sued, you know.
Your comment<<When I started teaching 28 years ago, the school was the center of the community, the parents knew what their children were doing both at school and at home, the parents knew where their children were, and the parents were acting as parents. They had not "given the children to the school." The present, this is not the situation. The school is not central to the community, the parents frequently see their children only on weekends, they do not know where their children are, what they are doing, and with whom they are spending time with>>
You proposed that parents become more involved. I fully agree. But, many parents simply blame the teachers and the system. So, at half-time the game is deadlocked, and the students lose. I read your statement of experience as a long term (at least 28 year) trend in this regard, which coincides with many quality measures of 35 years or so. Is there a way to get this reversed other than refusing to pass students to the next grade, or giving them a diploma? If administrators would back up teachers who make this call, would that not shock a few such parents into a little reality? If such is worthwhile, how the heck can it be implemented based on your experience? Something fundamental must change for the 2nd half of our game.
Lastly, your comment <<This may seem rambling, but that's often the way math and science types think -- one thought leads to another.>> Don't apologize, James. I have the same problem, having been educated in physics. Let's agree you are in good company. And, I hope you don't mind but I made a special copy of your <<If it moves and shouldn't, use duct tape.If it doesn't move and should, use WD-40.> -- Michael Hodges mwhod...@msn.com
I recall a German father sending me his 15-year old daughter to further her English, although she had already had 5 years of schooling in this 'foreign' language. We put her to a local private school, which offers calculus to seniors and has very high SAT results. Shortly she was at the top of her class in solid geometry and history. Her language education even included our words for radius, diameter, constitution, etc, and she had already had trig. and 2 years of physics and 3 years of history. In my judgment, her IQ (I did not measure it) was average, but the quality and breadth of her education was obvious. She would be quite the competitor to her US counterparts regarding many areas, especially including real language skills. When she returned to Germany she was not given credit for her U.S. year (her father knew that when he sent her), which caused her to graduate one year later than planned. Citing one example does not make any case, but space is limited.
Bottom line: I think few would doubt that we could do much better - - and must. The challenge is what can grandparents, parents and teachers do about it. I am concerned for my own grandchildren. -- Michael Hodges mwhod...@msn.com
Angie, Thanks for jumping into the posting string I started. Your comments are excellent, and ought to be broadcast as far as possible. Hope you don't mind if I ask about a few: 1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished. Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level> I must agree that students would therefore have no reason to be proud of their accomplishments, and the achieving students were the losers. What a negative impression for future motivation to excel. Would you elaborate on how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers as a group back each other up with 'group power' to thereby bring the pressure to cause a screeching halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the repercussions expected career threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids?
2. Another of your powerful comments<<Cessation and Discouragement of competion between students>> and <<the recognition of students who distinguish themselves is slowly being stomped out.>> Powerful, sad, but believable. Our performance shows it. If I were a label thrower I would label what is happening to these young people: "student abuse." What are the options, and how can concerned grandparents and the better teachers who want this abuse stopped, do something about this? It is apparent many parents and administrators are not your allies. Who are your allies?
BTW: what class do you teach? 3. And, your comment<Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now <smile>>> Angie, please get back on your soapbox. We need to hear more and then see if just this small group can come up with some ideas. It must start somewhere, and I believe teacher power must come forth. <smile> -- Michael Hodges mwhod...@msn.com
Persuter wrote: > In other countries, the privilege of education is afforded only to the best > and the brightest. Here in the USA, we teach every last man jack at > least to the tenth grade level, something most other countries can't boast.
This is not true, at least not at the elementary level. All industrial societies send almost all of their children to school through the 6th grade.
Education is *not* a privilege in those countries but a duty, a duty which is taken seriously by parents as well as teachers, and even by students.
We pity ourselves too much when we bemoan the "fact" that we send more of our kids to school than other countries do or that we have a more diverse student body and therefore cannot hope to match the achievements in other countries. E. D. Hirsch and Stevenson & Stigler put these myths pretty much to rest. The educational systems in other industrial nations (and this also includes China, which is more or a third-world nation) are almost always better than ours, even when factors such as diversity are controlled for.
-- Jim Lyons | Operating Systems Specialist Computation Center | 512-475-9331 University of Texas at Austin | j.ly...@cc.utexas.edu http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~koala
Try teaching for a few years and all of your questions will be answered.
Basically, tutoring always yeilds better results. Pay a teacher to tutor one-to-one, rather than 38-to-one and you'll see vastly improved grades, right? ...especially if you count many year of experience mixed with ability. Of course, your taxes might increase somewhat if you want the one-to-one structure (in order to acheive what you believe to be possible.) Think of it! an inner city school replete with drug problems and other crime, with a population of 2000 pupils would need 2000 teachers. Of course, you would then also need more staff to take care of any discipline problems, etc. etc. etc..
Sorry, but comparison of the privelege of tutoring with a normal teaching environment is totally absurd (and, unfortunately quite common.)
ChemT...@clubnet.net wrote: > If Japan et al have been doing so well for so long, where are their > achievements? Quick, name me the last Japanese citizen trained in Japan to > win a Nobel Prize? You can't because that person does not exist.
> Go down the line and you see that the US has generally produced the > original inventions or laid the basic theory in a given field. This is not > to say that great contributions have not been made by other countries > because they have.
In an earlier post I talked a little about "The Learning Gap" by Stevenson and Stigler. Concerning the above point, they note that Japan is less interested in letting individual students shine and more concerned with every student doing well. Therefore, except in exceptional cases, students are not tracked, at least at the elementary level. While S&S acknowledge that Americans have many Nobel prizes and other signs of achievements, they say this is the result of a rather narrow stratum of high-achievers, with the large majority of students left behind. It's somewhat similar to a society which has gleaming cities which hide squalid ghettos where the majority of people live.
> The US writes the most textbooks and publishes the most papers. The action > is here in pure research as well as application development.
Some if it is certainly due to the need to publish in order to beef up a CV or gain tenure. I wonder how much would be published if scholars and researchers only published when they had something they really wanted to say?
> Finally, I consider much of the testing suspect. Some (many?) of the > people involved in interpeting and publicizing these data are the same > people that compete for grants to "solve" the problems. can we say > "conflict of interest?" Also, remember these tests compare apples and > oranges. We in the US are committed to educating all in the "college-prep" > track. Most other countries steer kids into alternate programs. So these > tests compare the top 5-10% of other countries against a cross-section of > US kids. [sarcasm on] Sounds pretty fair to me. [sarcasm off]
Actually, American kids do poorly when such factors as you've mentioned are controlled for. E. D. Hirsch talks about this some in "The Schools We Need."
-- Jim Lyons | Operating Systems Specialist Computation Center | 512-475-9331 University of Texas at Austin | j.ly...@cc.utexas.edu http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~koala
Thanks to all. In just the 2nd day after posting the subject of this thread, I am truly impressed with the quality, diversity and quantity of responses - - and of the obvious sincerity of those participating. I am especially impressed with the contributions from teachers and students, and excellent inputs from parents. One thing is clear to me: nearly all share concern for education quality, agree we must do much, much better, and yet there has been a minimum of finger-pointing. From what I have witnessed in some other newsgroups, this is one of the best - - as I define best. Many start off their statement with "I may not be an expert, but - - ". That's my fault, as I should not have started the opening posting with "which expert will comment - - -" . Sorry. Let's just agree that anyone who is sincerely concerned and wishes for better quality, and wants to contribute inputs and solution suggestions, is here defined as The Expert. Go for it, experts!
I hope you will keep at it a bit longer, and that others will join in. Don't be timid, or feel bad about being on a 'soapbox'. Heck, this is our information highway - lets use it. All want to learn and do something. And, let's hear more of "I would recommend - - or here's what must be done to get at this quality thing - - ." I sense what many good teachers are up against, but if they can speak out clearly on what and how, I think we will learn a lot. If anyone wants to write me direct via email, I will try and answer as best I can.
> >Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so > >poorly compared to foreign students?
> who's an expert?
> i think:
> * north america is much more a culture of distraction > (lots of tv, fragmented superficial shows, blast advertisements).
> * educators are probably not as refined and developed, and > perhaps less serious about their role.
> * in many other places, there's a different sense of discipline.
Gerald, I have to agree with you that America is more a culture of distraction than other countries listed here (I assume it was that to which you were referring). I agree that in many other places that there is a different sense of discipline. However, I would like to ask you some questions about your statements.
If it is granted that North America is more a culture of distraction, how *exactly* is that affecting the quality of our education?
If it is granted that in many other places there is a different sense of discipline. A sense of discipline is going to vary from country to country, does this mean that the sense of discipline in North America is not a good as it is in other countries? If so, how does that affect the education North American students receive? What changes should be made to correct it?
Now, I had to save it for last because I was afraid you might not read any further once you saw my response to your second statement. What do you mean, my dear sir, when you say that 'educators are probably not as refined and developed, and perhaps less serious about their role'? Perhaps you could clarify that before I blast you in defense of all the caring dedicated teachers that helped me make it through school with a decent education, and all the teachers that have made posts to this newsgroup that show their passion and desire for an *excellent* educational system.
Please, respond to this, I am sure that some of your points are valid, yet it would be difficult for me to accept any of your comments if I have not misread your statement.
--Angie
-- Tanstaafl 'There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.' -Robert Heinlein
: "Michael Hodges" <mwhod...@msn.com> wrote: : : >Angie, : >Thanks for jumping into the posting string I started. Your comments are : >excellent, and ought to be broadcast as far as possible. Hope you don't : >mind if I ask about a few: : >1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to : >level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished. : > Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their : >accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level> I : >must agree that students would therefore have no reason to be proud of : >their accomplishments, and the achieving students were the losers. What a : >negative impression for future motivation to excel. Would you elaborate on : >how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers as a group back each other : >up with 'group power' to thereby bring the pressure to cause a screeching : >halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the repercussions expected career : >threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids? : : Teachers at my school DO fight for what we think is best for our students. For : years many of us have been telling the admin that we need more instructional : time, but things have not improved. Teachers who are demanding actually are : afraid of being cited for giving out too many low grades or for having too many : parents or students complain that they are "too hard". The best example I can : give is this: The superintendent of the school system in which I work (it is a : private school system) has pretty much decided that we will eventually be : changing our high school to a block schedule. This is in spite of the fact that : the majority of the faculty on staff do not believe this to be in the best : interest of our students. Actually, he may well be oblivious to it. He simply : has decided. We've been told to expect it, for it is coming, and make : suggestions as to what type of schedule we would most like in that format, for : if we try to dig in and fight it we will have no chance to give input and it : shall come to pass anyway. : : Who the heck will save these kids? You expect the teachers to do it? Damn it, : but I'm tired every day I come home from work and I don't feel like fighting : these battles alone. How about the parents and community joining in? After all, : don't the schools belong to the parents and the community? If you ask me, they : are getting exactly what they want and are willing to support. Still, some of us : teachers do try to do what we think is in the best interest of the students, in : spite of the opposition we get from both admin and parents. : : Sheila King
Sheila: We, too, will be going to block scheduling, although the move has been delayed 2 years. The Dec. issue of Math Teacher is supposed to have a major feature on Block Scheduling. It should be quite interesting. Mel.
Well said. Many are so tired when we come home. But, we need solutions and we have to hear from the better teachers. Maybe we need a teacher quality union than has nothing to do with money, but only with quality. Some group must give the wake up call-or else to our society. I think it cannot be politicians, parents or administrators. I must come from the core: teachers - - and then, the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please is a very correct point, you made in my judgment. Thanks for it. -- Michael Hodges mwhod...@msn.com
A few weeks ago I read E.D. Hirsch's book "The Schools We Need and Why we Don't Have Them." Inspired by some comments in that book I then read, and recently finished, "The Learning Gap" by Stevenson and Stigler. This book compares schools systems in selected cities in the U.S., Japan, Taiwan, and China. It offers answers to a lot of your questions. They compare students over the entire range of courses, but concentrate on mathematics. They did this, they explained, because comparisons of verbal and written skills between such radically different cultures as American and East Asian are very difficult. It is much easier to compare math skills. I'll try to summarize some of them based on my memory of what they wrote.
howie wrote:
> Michael Hodges (mwhod...@msn.com) wrote: > > Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so > > poorly compared to foreign students?
> I'm certainly not an expert and I don't have an answer, but > your post did generate some questions.
> What skills are rewarded here? What skills are rewarded in > countries in which students are doing well?
What is rewarded in Japan and the Chinas is effort. It is believed that effort is needed to learn mathematics. They contrast this with a belief in inborn ability, in which they maintain Americans believe to a much greater extent than Asians. This has at least two effects. First, Asian students work harder. They believe that if they work hard enough, they will understand the material. In America, students tend to rationalize away poor performance by blaming an inherent inability. Since there are people who are just not good at math, they reason, why should they try very hard? The second effect is that students are much less wary about making mistakes in class. A mistake is not a sign of stupidity but an indicator of what work needs to be done.
> Are students tracked differently in countries where students > are doing well? (Apples to apples ...)
Students in the other countries are not tracked at all, unless they are retarded or, at the other end, gifted.
> What teaching methods are used in countries where students > are doing well and how do they compare to methods used in > the United States?
Teachers in Japan and the Chinas present a much slower-paced course but the results are better because classes are better thought out and better prepared. The material is presented more coherently and with a better sense of the goal of each section of material. American teachers tend to present subjects in a hurried fashion and change from from one subject to another too abruptly.
One big difference they note is that the Asian teachers have much more free time during each day to plan classes, grade papers, see students, and confer with colleagues.
> Are teacher salaries comparable in the U.S. and in nations > where students are doing well? Does this include > pay for coaching? Are other incentives used to increase > pay of people who teach academic subjects?
The teachers in Asia were better paid and the teaching profession was held in a higher regard than in America.
Again, these are their thoughts. Don't flame me if you don't like them. It's a very good book and well worth reading.
-- Jim Lyons | Operating Systems Specialist Computation Center | 512-475-9331 University of Texas at Austin | j.ly...@cc.utexas.edu http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~koala
"Michael Hodges" <mwhod...@msn.com> wrote: >Angie, >Thanks for jumping into the posting string I started. Your comments are >excellent, and ought to be broadcast as far as possible. Hope you don't >mind if I ask about a few: >1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to >level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished. > Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their >accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level> I >must agree that students would therefore have no reason to be proud of >their accomplishments, and the achieving students were the losers. What a >negative impression for future motivation to excel. Would you elaborate on >how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers as a group back each other >up with 'group power' to thereby bring the pressure to cause a screeching >halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the repercussions expected career >threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids?
Teachers at my school DO fight for what we think is best for our students. For years many of us have been telling the admin that we need more instructional time, but things have not improved. Teachers who are demanding actually are afraid of being cited for giving out too many low grades or for having too many parents or students complain that they are "too hard". The best example I can give is this: The superintendent of the school system in which I work (it is a private school system) has pretty much decided that we will eventually be changing our high school to a block schedule. This is in spite of the fact that the majority of the faculty on staff do not believe this to be in the best interest of our students. Actually, he may well be oblivious to it. He simply has decided. We've been told to expect it, for it is coming, and make suggestions as to what type of schedule we would most like in that format, for if we try to dig in and fight it we will have no chance to give input and it shall come to pass anyway.
Who the heck will save these kids? You expect the teachers to do it? Damn it, but I'm tired every day I come home from work and I don't feel like fighting these battles alone. How about the parents and community joining in? After all, don't the schools belong to the parents and the community? If you ask me, they are getting exactly what they want and are willing to support. Still, some of us teachers do try to do what we think is in the best interest of the students, in spite of the opposition we get from both admin and parents.
> Questions: > 1. Can someone please explain why we have such performance relative to foreign students?
There may be several reasons. One reason is that many foreign countries only test their top students, while we test everyone.
> 2. How many math & science teachers are giving standard tests to all their students of the same type given in foreign schools to compare the relative performance and trends of their students, and reporting the results to parents?
This is tougher to answer, since so many variables are involved. In Japan, the schools teach students how to pass the standardized tests, and that's about all. Of course they get better scores when they prepare all year for the test, but what else are they learning? They also go to school much longer tahn U.S. students.
Apples and Oranges if you ask me. Comparing these scores is not realistic.
: Greg, : Thanks for your comments. : One of them <<In some countries, algebra is offered at an earlier grade : > level than it is in the US--it shouldn't be surprising that students at : > that grade level outperformed US students on that test. >> : : Can you comment on which grades and how much earlier to same? : And, why would U.S. schools not offer said math at an earlier grade than we : do? Is there some advantage to the students to be later rather than sooner? : : : I can certainly agree with you how difficult it is to make sense out of : many press reports. You commented<<On tests of areas in which educational : opportunity was equated among the nations, American students did quite : well.>> : If you have the data I would appreciate receiving a copy by email, so I can : better understand the type of test, which nations, date, who administered, : etc.
The data come from the book I cited in my original posting. It is a library book I read and returned a couple of months ago, so I would hesitate to cite exact details from memory. Berliner & Biddle (1995), "The manufactured crisis: myths, fraud, and the attack on America's public schools", ISBN 0-201-40957-7. They provide details up the wazoo.
: : Dick, I think you are very right. The only Math course my kids : took in highschool that they could see the use for was Statistics. : Most schools don't teach this, but it is an easy way to bring : math into the real world. Things kids have a "real world" interest : in like baseball stats can be used. Not to mention a link with : Political Science courses. <g>
Was it M. Twain who said, "There are lies, damned lies, and ... statistics" :) ?
It looks like you have enough comments to write a book. Go ahead!!!! There is obviously a lot of interest and opinions about this topic. Sounds like a bestseller to me, and who knows, maybe it will change education as we know it in America.
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