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Why are we worse in math & science than foreign nations?

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Michael Hodges

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
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Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
poorly compared to foreign students?

If we had web space we could include more data than on the site below about
education, such as that showing test scores of U.S. 9 and 13 year old
students are near
the bottom of a long list of nations in math & science testing. U.S.
scores were below ALL industrialized nations, even below Spain, Hungary and
China. The only nations we beat were such as Jordan and Mozambique. (Data
source: Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics,
International Assessment of Educational Progress, as further reported in
the 1995 Digest of Education Statistics.)

Since this data is from an organization charged with education quality, it
is doubtful this pessimistic view of relative U.S. education quality is
over-stated.

Studies report many nations (such as Germany, France & Japan) require their
students to take 100% more math & science, and require 57 times more
students per 1,000 to take advanced examinations - - than in the U.S.

It seems apparent that not only is the U.S. the largest monetary debtor
nation in the world, but the above is further evidence that we are not too
far from being one of the world's worse in primary & secondary school
education quality - - and, already the worse vs. the industrialized world -
at least in math & science.
It is not lack of money: our per student spending has risen 3.2 times in
inflation adjusted terms, and is the highest in the world according to the
above Digest, even after massive devaluations of our
currency relative to most industrial nations inflated foreign numbers in
dollar terms.

I want to see the US at the top of all lists of foreign nations - - not at
or near the bottom as reported. Obviously our educators in math & science
need help that they are not getting, and/or existing funding is not being
expended as teachers and parents would prefer to assure quality output
better than any nation.

And, it is not only math & science: The President recently announced he
wanted volunteers to teach children to read. Would he have said that if he
thought the current education system was teaching them to read adequately?

``The quality of schooling is far worse today than it was in 1955,'' Dr.
Milton Friedman, the Nobel laureate wrote in the Washington Post last year.


In an era of rapidly increasing global competition, coupled with our
stagnant and falling inflation-adjusted median family incomes nation-wide
for the past 2 1/2 decades, our children are at risk with sub-standard
education quality - - as evidenced by DOE data, the President's comments,
and statements by esteemed professionals such as a Nobel laureate.

Parents need to read all the information they can find, and then take
informed actions to better educate their children - - because, in the end
it is their responsibility to acquire the best quality for their own.
We are concerned for our young grandchildren.

Questions:
1. Can someone please explain why we have such performance relative to
foreign
students?
2. How many math & science teachers are giving standard tests to all their
students of the same type given in foreign schools to compare the relative
performance and trends of their students, and reporting the results to
parents?

I am a concerned grandfather searching for reasons and solutions. Our young
generation is at risk.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report-
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm


An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm


Michael Hodges

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
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Responding to a good posting by Richard NeSmith, Biology Teacher - -

Richard,
I really appreciated you taking the time to share your comments.
Your comment of <in most countries education is a privilege, not a right>
rings a bell, and is quite good.

You mentioned <Students in most countries never go beyond 6th years of
schooling>. When you say 'most' I doubt you were including the major
industrialized nations . Example: I know from first hand experience that
Germany has compulsory education through 13 years - - same for other
Europeans, and said schooling includes more total classroom hours than in
U.S. and rigorous examinations.

Your comment <the program in most foreign countries is quite vigorous. Some
> attend school 8 hours a day and even go on Saturdays. Those who make it
> are DISCIPLINED, something we have lost here in America. Our students
> (even the majority of the good students) are rather passive, lazy> I hear
that type of comment often, and it saddens me. But you are a teacher with
first hand experience, so I must accept it. And, the quality data shows the
result.

The comment I liked the best <I believe that in America education
is looked upon as something forced to do, something to pre-occupy the
youth (much like babysitting), rather than as a privilege that one must
succeed at in order to better their own lives, as well as the lives of
others.> I presume many good teachers would agree with you on that, and
with such characteristics it is no wonder that the economic future of our
next generation will be up against it vs. many foreign competitors. I saw
in one of the newsgroups Saudi Arabia advertising on the Web for the best
math teachers they can find for their students, regardless of national
origin. The education quality race is on, and appears we are not
concentrating on that.

And, your comment <You can ask just about any teacher on any level, and
they will tell you that any time we (as teachers) become "too" vigorous, we
hear it from
the parents.> If by 'too vigorous' you mean giving D's and F's where
deserved, or refusing to move the student to the next grade, then why would
good teachers cave in to pressure from ANYONE? Our nation must depend on
its good teachers to be a little 'tough-minded' concerning grading and
passing, and to hold fast to high quality output standards. If they don't,
the student is the loser long term, as you say. I would appreciate a bit
more on this item, if you will - - and if they need more backup then how
can that be provided?

Lastly: have you and your fellow teachers had a chance to require testing
of your students to the same tests used by our major industrialized
nations, so that you can report to parents where they stand at least in
this regard? Is this encouraged, or not - - or is there a reluctance to do
this as low relative scores might reflect on one's career - - although the
cause might be due to education before you got the student?

Thanks again for shedding some light. And, I hope you don't mind a few more
questions.

Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

BJ Chadwick

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
to

>
>And, your comment <You can ask just about any teacher on any level, and
>they will tell you that any time we (as teachers) become "too" vigorous, we
>hear it from
>the parents.> If by 'too vigorous' you mean giving D's and F's where
>deserved, or refusing to move the student to the next grade, then why would
>good teachers cave in to pressure from ANYONE? Our nation must depend on
>its good teachers to be a little 'tough-minded' concerning grading and
>passing, and to hold fast to high quality output standards. If they don't,
>the student is the loser long term, as you say. I would appreciate a bit
>more on this item, if you will - - and if they need more backup then how
>can that be provided?
>

I'm going to jump in here with a little bit of political reality that one of
my colleagues found out the hard way. Teachers actually have very little to
say in the matter. If the school administration deems it prudent or advisable
they can legally change a student's grade and the teacher can do nothing about
it. A school administration often deals with political issues such as budgets
and publicity that have nothing to do with what is good for the child or
children.
Teachers are also human beings -- who have to live with their
administrators and the good will of the board of education.

I commend you for being concerned about what is happening to American
education. I suggest that the best way to show that concern is get out into
your local public school as a volunteer. They will welcome you with open
arms and you will get insight into what is really happening. In addition, you
may just spark a few of those kids to push themselves. Our kids need to see
that the adults in our society really value education not just pay it lip
service. If you work and can't volunteer in the daytime then at least go to
your local school board meetings, get familiar with the issues, speak out
about what you feel should be happening. Start a Saturday tutoring center or
an evening homework help center. Get the people you work for or with to take
an interest in the school -- to form a partnership to work with students.
Start a letter writing compaign -- write to the president and congress and
your governor and your state department of education. .... Well, you get the
idea ...


BJ


Richard

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
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Michael,

Just came across this web site. I didn't examine it long and I don't
know what there objective is but they have some interesting info, some
that we discussed briefly.

Richard

gedm...@pe.net

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
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Michael Hodges wrote:
>
> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?
> In two words: social promotion.

Richard

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Nov 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/9/96
to Michael Hodges

Michael Hodges wrote:
>
> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?
>
>snipped>
> --
> Michael Hodges
> mwho...@msn.com
>

Hi Michael,

I admire your concern! Though I have many diplomas hanging on my walls,
I do not know if I qualify as an "expert." I can, however, share with
you from my experience and training what I believe is the difference.

First, in most countries education is a privilege, not a right. Students
in most countries never go beyond 6th years of schooling. That means
that those who do go on are quite dedicated and determined in their
studies.

Second, the program in most foreign countries is quite vigorous. Some


attend school 8 hours a day and even go on Saturdays. Those who make it
are DISCIPLINED, something we have lost here in America. Our students

(even the majority of the good students) are rather passive, lazy, and
only "toe the line." Since our programs are seldom vigorous, they do
quite well. Do keep in mind that there may be a pro and a con to this,
for some countries, like Japan, have the highest teen suicide rate, and
the educational system may be the reason.

In my opinion (and my opinion only) I believe that in America education


is looked upon as something forced to do, something to pre-occupy the
youth (much like babysitting), rather than as a privilege that one must
succeed at in order to better their own lives, as well as the lives of
others.

When you consider the technology that education has in the USA, it is
discouraging to realize that it is virtually untapped/unused, as
compared to the very little that foreign countries have.

You can ask just about any teacher on any level, and they will tell you
that any time we (as teachers) become "too" vigorous, we hear it from

the parents. By the way, that is about the only time we see or hear from
them). I am not necessarily advocating that every school should have the
atmosphere of a military school, but the main difference between our
students and those in other lands is discipline, character, and the
belief that this educational opportunity is a privilege and not a right.
Because we have lost the ideology that hard work and character are vital
regardless of one's field, we are really really not comparing apples
with apples when we compare our educational results with those in other
lands. Foreign scores are elevated primarily because those students who
could care less are weeded out by prior scores. Our test results almost
include everybody. I'm not trying to be pessimistic for I love teaching
biology, but I do believe that we are being less effective as the years
go by.


Richard NeSmith, Biology Teacher

"When the horse is dead, dismount!"

Gregory Shenaut

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
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Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
: Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
: poorly compared to foreign students?

I would like to suggest a contrarian view--that in fact, when the
comparison is done fairly, American students perform very well in
comparison to foreign schools. For example, one math achievement test
on which an international comparison was made tested algebra
performance. In some countries, algebra is offered at an earlier grade
level than it is in the US--it shouldn't be surprising that students at
that grade level outperformed US students on that test. On tests of
areas in which educational opportunity was equated among the nations,
American students did quite well. This critical detail was not
included in any of the press reports of the results of the comparison.

Any deficiency on these international comparisons is jumped on by
politicians and would-be educational reformers, even if the comparison
is meaningless, and soon a myth is created, that Americans are less
well educated than foreigners. Since widespread belief in this myth is
to the advantage of politicians, especially those who base their
philosophy on attacking the status quo, there has been little effort
expended in attempting to dispel the myth.

I encourage you to read the book by David C. Berliner and Bruce J.
Biddle (1995), called "The manufactured crisis: myths, fraud, and the
attack on America's public schools" (ISBN 0-201-40957-7).

--
Greg Shenaut -- gksh...@ucdavis.edu

Richard Alvarez

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
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mwho...@msn.com Michael Hodges at Gateway 2000 wrote

<<Can some expert please explain to me why our students are
performing so poorly compared to foreign students?>>

Like rich...@southconn.com Richard at The DataXchange Network,
Inc, I too admire your concern. Here are at least some symptoms of what
seems to me to be very wrong:

In the high-density suburban area where I live, a local news paper
wrote of the need for volunteer tutors at the local public high school.
I expected to have plenty of free time during the coming summer, so,
during the spring semester, I tried to volunteer as a math tutor for the
summer. I was referred to the coordinator of the summer school program,
who was not there yet. It took many weeks just to reach that
coordinator. The non-summer school people were unwilling even to leave
a message. My distinct impression was "Summer school is not my job. I
can't be bothered.".

Finally, I reached the summer school coordinator. She feared that
they could not use me because I am not bilingual. (Most people here
speak English.) I never tutored anybody during that summer.

Two years later, again during the spring semester, I tried to
volunteer for the summer. It took me at least a week to get past their
computer-controlled telephone answering system (and I feel reasonably
competent about operating computer system menus and telephone systems).
Then, again, it turned out that I would have to wait for the summer
school principal, who was not there yet. Finally, during the summer, an
administrative assistant told me that they were unable to use me because
I do not have a teaching credential. (I am an electrical engineer with
a strong background in math, not a regular teacher.) I never heard from
the summer school principal, despite leaving several polite messages.

I no longer have much faith in the administration of our local
public high school district. It appears to me that there are some good
math teachers but that they are not being supported much by their
administrations.

Another major problem seems to be that some parents don't much care.
During the school-year, I volunteer at a good private high school near
my home. Most of the students and their parents are great people, and
it is a pleasure to know them. But some of the students are from split
homes where apparently the father pays the school bill (about $11,000
per year) but is too busy to keep track of his son or daughter, while
the mother seems to be too busy (or scatter-brained). My repeated calls
to those homes to arrange tutoring appointments, often go unreturned.
The math department head tells me that he has the same problem with
those families.

Last, too many math students don't know why they are learning math.
It appears to me that they are taught procedures with little apparent
reason. For example, often I ask a beginning algebra student "Do you
understand what algebra is good for, what kinds of problems we can solve
with algebra that we can't solve with arithmetic alone, how (first-year)
algebra works, and why we use symbols in some places rather than
numbers?". Most of them say no, so I explain it. The usual response is
"Why didn't somebody explain that *long* ago?". (In all fairness, maybe
somebody did explain it, and the students were so occupied with the
procedural details that they missed the over-all purpose and methods of
algebra; but apparently nobody followed through to be sure that they
understood it eventually.)

Still on motivation: For two or more years in high school, we throw
math at students with little apparent use for it. School math courses
have little or no time for really-in-depth applications, and text books
don't have space for it. Students must accept our adminition "Learn
this now because you will need it later.". For a person of that age,
"later" is a long time. Some bright high school students become
discouraged by the apparent lack of use for their math, so they stop
taking math courses. Then when they reach college, it is too late for
them to go very far in science.

In the Boy Scouts, when I teach the astronomy badge, I give the
older Scouts an optional chance to use some math. The usual response is
"This is the first use that we have seen for our high school math. What
*else* can we do with it?". So, as time permits, I show them
interesting and useful applications of the math that they have learned
already. I have made a little bit of progress there (NCTM's
"Mathematics Teacher", issue of 1996 April), but there is a long way to
go. One problem is time in school curricula and in the lives of busy
students.

This brings up a problem that you mentioned: standard tests. It is
easier to test students on their ability to perform mathematical
procedures, than on their ability to solve in-depth problems. Problem-
solving ability is tested after the students reach college, when they
must use their high school math in freshman courses in mathematical
physics and chemistry. Meanwhile, high school teachers are evaluated on
how well their students do in standard tests *now*, not next year.

About requiring students to take more math courses: I doubt that it
will work unless the students are more motivated than they are now.

More motivation might even help to reduce the high teen suicide rate
that Richard NeSmith mentioned about Japan.

[CLIMBING OFF OF SOAP BOX]

I am not expert as a high school teacher. I follow this k12.ed.math
news group to help in tutoring. Anybody care to add to this, or correct
my misconceptions?

Dick Alvarez
alv...@best.com

Richard

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to Richard Alvarez

Richard Alvarez wrote:
>
> mwho...@msn.com Michael Hodges at Gateway 2000 wrote

<snipped>


>
> This brings up a problem that you mentioned: standard tests. It is
> easier to test students on their ability to perform mathematical
> procedures, than on their ability to solve in-depth problems. Problem-
> solving ability is tested after the students reach college, when they
> must use their high school math in freshman courses in mathematical
> physics and chemistry. Meanwhile, high school teachers are evaluated on
> how well their students do in standard tests *now*, not next year.
>
> About requiring students to take more math courses: I doubt that it
> will work unless the students are more motivated than they are now.
>
> More motivation might even help to reduce the high teen suicide rate
> that Richard NeSmith mentioned about Japan.
>
> [CLIMBING OFF OF SOAP BOX]
>
> I am not expert as a high school teacher. I follow this k12.ed.math
> news group to help in tutoring. Anybody care to add to this, or correct
> my misconceptions?
>
> Dick Alvarez
> alv...@best.com


Hi Dick,

Said to say, but I'm not real surprised at your experience with the
public school. Unfortunately, we (they) are so wrapped up in RED TAPE
that an engineer doesn't "qualify" to teach math, neither does an M.D.
"qualify" to teach anatomy. In my opinion, it's time to redefine the
word "qualify." I am afraid that the system have bowed down to a
man-made god called certification. I will not get into the argument, but
my opinion is bound to bleed through. Certification proves that someone
has jumped through some hops, it does not (and never will) make a person
a great teacher. I believe we have cut our juglar vein by discouraging
people (like yourself) who are well qualified and could contribute
greatly either as full time teachers or volunteer tutors (bless your
heart!!!). I agree with you wholeheartedly about the problems with
testing. I do not believe there is a quick fix or an easy answer, for
I'm not sure that multiple choice tests (as much as I like them) can do
much to assess crititical thinking skills. I guess I really like that
little blurb, that seems to fit well in my mind, when it comes to many
of the traditions we have in education: "When the horse is dead,
dismount!" Have a great week.

Richard NeSmith, H.S. Biology Teacher

rich...@southconn.com

"When the horse is dead, dismount."

Richard

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to gedm...@pe.net

gedm...@pe.net wrote:

>
> Michael Hodges wrote:
> >
> > Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> > poorly compared to foreign students?
> > In two words: social promotion.


Interesting. I just read recently where it appears that grades are going
up and SAT scores (guru of gurus) are going down. What ever happened to
standards?

Richard NeSmith, H.S. Biology Teacher

rich...@southconn.com

"When the horse is dead, dismount!"

howie

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?

I'm certainly not an expert and I don't have an answer, but
your post did generate some questions.

What skills are rewarded here? What skills are rewarded in
countries in which students are doing well?

Are students tracked differently in countries where students
are doing well? (Apples to apples ...)

What teaching methods are used in countries where students
are doing well and how do they compare to methods used in
the United States?

Are teacher salaries comparable in the U.S. and in nations
where students are doing well? Does this include
pay for coaching? Are other incentives used to increase
pay of people who teach academic subjects?

Howie

David Hole

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

BJ Chadwick wrote:
>
<snip>

>
> I'm going to jump in here with a little bit of political reality that one of
> my colleagues found out the hard way. Teachers actually have very little to
> say in the matter. If the school administration deems it prudent or advisable
> they can legally change a student's grade and the teacher can do nothing about
> it. A school administration often deals with political issues such as budgets
> and publicity that have nothing to do with what is good for the child or
> children.

<snip>

18 years ago, as a first year teacher I had a young man who would do no
work. I called the father during the second week and was told that if I
was having problems with his son it was my problem not his. After all,
if he had problems with his son at home, he didn't call me, did he? So
for five grade periods this young man did nothing and received an F.

When I catch this young man with marajhana in class one day, the
principal was kind enough to explain to me how important it was that we
NOT do anything about this, because we didn't want to wreck this kid's
future.

Then comes the first day of the last grade period, and I have a meeting
one hour before school. It's the father of this student wanting to know
if we (you see, the kid wasn't doing anything for anyone else) were
willing to pass his son. It was important now, because he wanted his
kid to play baseball that summer. I assured the father that I didn't
hold any grudges and that his son could pass this last six weeks---if he
did the work.

For the next two days, I had a different kid in class. He opened his
book, had pencil in hand, and was actually doing pretty well (he wasn't
dumb, just drugged up in my estimation). Then, on monday we were back
to the old routine. I walked past his desk after about 10 minutes and
suggested he get to work. "Man, don't mess with me," was the response.

Needless to say, at the end of the grade period he had another F in
science. I turned in grades on friday afternoon and went home to ponder
my future. On saturday morning I received a phone call from the
principal. "I wanted you to know that I've changed D----'s grade in
science from an F to a C. This way he receives a D- for the semester
and will be eligible to play base-ball. I just wanted you to know,
because if you were to see that he was playing base-ball you wouldn't
say something that would create problems." (Meaning of course, that I
was to keep my mouth shut so that people wouldn't know what had
happened.)

On monday morning at 9:00 I walked into the principal's office with my
letter of resignation. I was warned that if I resigned that I'd never
teach again. (After all, any principal I would apply to would be
calling him, right?) And I didn't teach for the next two years. I sold
life insurance, substitute taught, and worked on my masters degree.

Fortunatly, I was able to overcome this principal's black-balling.
Three weeks into the school year, in another school system two hours
away from my first job, an eight-grade science teacher quit (on
saturday). Sunday I received a call asking me to fill in until they
could find a replacement teacher. I agreed, on the condition that they
consider me.

I worked on a day-by-day basis from the end of September until early
December, at which point I was finally given a temporary contract to
finish the year. Please note that by law I was supposed to only work 14
days in the same position on a day-by-day basis, but the must have been
afraid of me. Anyway, at the end of the year I was told that they would
open the position and I'd have to apply again. I didn't get it, but I
did get my present position that summer.

I'm sorry about the length of this posting, but if nothing else it has
been good for me to share this information.

--
David Hole
dh...@netusa1.net

Richard

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to David Hole

David,

I am sorry to hear about your poor experience during your first year. As
you probably know by now, there are jerks in every profession and you
just happen to encounter your's early in your career. Most principals do
back their teachers when it comes to grades, especially if the overall
class grades look "normal." I guess I would have stood up against the
hob-knobbing and let them try to throw me out on that note. They
probably would have backed down. Those that I have worked under usually
try to stay out of it. Good luck and I hope you in a school where you
can enjoy teaching.

Sincerely,

Chem...@clubnet.net

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

In article <32852ec7...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, an...@ix.netcom.com
(Ankit Desai) wrote:

> My opinion on tudying in America as a current 12th grader:
>
> Right now, I am taking all Advanced Placement courses and notice that
> a majority of the students are foreigners, mainly Asian.

Most of them are US citizens of Asian extraction.

I also know
> that teachers are going too slow in the AP classes because it takes
> the teachers two to three weeks to teach 1 chapter. We used to learn
> 1 chapter per week in India.

So what?

Also, I notice too many people who do
> not how to spell. How can that be? To me it is no wonder, why
> America is doing so poorly compared to other nations.

Here is the key: if you can spel, you have a superior education.

Of course, we here in the US are doing so poorly that the world is
flocking to the US for higher level academic and professional educations.

This past summer, Iranian kids (I think - maybe Iraqi) dominated the
International Chemistry Olympiad, held in Moscow. This, of course, proves
the education in that county to be far superior to the US in chemistry.
China also has done very well in the IChO.

I hardly expect Iran (or Iraq or India for that matter) to dominate the
Chemistry Nobel prizes in 15-30 years. More than likely, it's some good
ole US boy slaving away in the lab right now that will be recognized for
the 2015 Chemistry Nobel.

[some deletia]

> There are just too many problems in the education
> system here.
>
Well Ankit, you ought to be continually on your parents to send you back
to India to get that superior education. Another step you might take is to
enroll in some tougher classes, maybe at the local university. Probably
junior-level or higher (why the graduate level sounds right about where
you are right now). I'm sure you could handle the extra load given the
patty-cake AP classes you're taking in high school. After all,they are
proceeding at a rate which is only 50% of what India does (at the most).

Why, the discipline is so lax, you could do your college HW in your HS
classes and the teachers would just laugh it off because they don't care,
do they?

Go look up straw-man argument.

John Park

jul

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
to

"Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> opined:

>Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
>poorly compared to foreign students?

I'm no expert in the subject, but here are some possibilities:

1) Comparing American HS students with HS students in many countries
is apples & oranges. Many countries track most of their students into
vocational programs and only the better students reach an academic
high school.

2) In the U.S., education is a political wrestling ring where
different groups fight to push their agendas, not caring how it
affects students. My county's system alone has paid MILLIONS in
lawsuit damages over political issues. Meanwhile, students open
umbrellas inside the rooms because the roof leaks.

3) American culture places little value on academic learning. This
shows in the general resentment about studying such "useless" things
as literature, biology, etc. To be somebody, you better know how to
sing a song or throw a football.

4) American teachers are often underqualified and unsupported. Foreign
teachers' colleges tend to be harder to get into. Most foreign
teachers couldn't work without the equivalent of a master's degree.
Many countries require a year or more of internship. Once in the
profession, all most American teachers get from the central office is
more mandates, more forms to fill out, and more demands to save face
and jobs downtown. There is very little accountability for what
teachers do-- or don't do-- in the classroom.

5) Many American students and parents don't like to get involved or
take responsibility for the student's progress in school.

jul
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*julnar*the*mermaid*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get PowWow!
http://www.tribal.com

**Please do not send**
**unsolicited email**
**to this address.**


Melvin Billik

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
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David Hole (dh...@netusa1.net) wrote:

David:
I am really appalled at the scenario you described.
In our District, I believe it would take Board action to change a grade,
and it would probably have to be determined that the grade was CLEARLY
arbitrary and capricious.
At least I HOPE that is the situation!
I don't know of any grade change situations like that. Of course, if it
did occur, it is unlikely that it would be common knowledge.

The only situation I had even remotely like yours was when I had a
wrestler in my stat class. He had work habits similar to your student. The
wrestling coach visited me and said "what do we have to do to pass <name
of student>?" I said that WE do not have to do anything. But I indicated
what the student needed to do. To this day, I still think there was a very
subtle attempt at pressure (the coach was a pretty big fellow) but it
really didn't amount to much.

Maybe other teachers can comment: could this really happen in your school?
Mel


Chem...@clubnet.net

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Nov 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/10/96
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In article <563nu7$m...@nntp1.best.com>, alv...@nntp.best.com (Richard
Alvarez) wrote:

> mwho...@msn.com Michael Hodges at Gateway 2000 wrote
>
> <<Can some expert please explain to me why our students are
> performing so poorly compared to foreign students?>>
>
>

> More motivation might even help to reduce the high teen suicide rate
> that Richard NeSmith mentioned about Japan.
>

This is a cultural thing concerning losing face. These kids were highly
motivated, since the test that they did poorly at would essentially
determine the rest of their lives. Since they failed, the only honorable
thing to do was die.

I tire of these debates about how poorly the US is doing.

If Japan et al have been doing so well for so long, where are their
achievements? Quick, name me the last Japanese citizen trained in Japan to
win a Nobel Prize? You can't because that person does not exist.

Go down the line and you see that the US has generally produced the
original inventions or laid the basic theory in a given field. This is not
to say that great contributions have not been made by other countries
because they have.

The US writes the most textbooks and publishes the most papers. The action
is here in pure research as well as application development.

Japan makes many fine items and is the world leader in many areas.
However, that is not solely the product of their educational system. You
must consider the political support their industry enjoys.

While we may lag in tests which may or may not be valid, if you examine
the _entire structure_ of US education, you will find none better. People
vote with their feet and many are coming to the US for their higher
education and then they go home to work in their own country.

Finally, I consider much of the testing suspect. Some (many?) of the
people involved in interpeting and publicizing these data are the same
people that compete for grants to "solve" the problems. can we say
"conflict of interest?" Also, remember these tests compare apples and
oranges. We in the US are committed to educating all in the "college-prep"
track. Most other countries steer kids into alternate programs. So these
tests compare the top 5-10% of other countries against a cross-section of
US kids. [sarcasm on] Sounds pretty fair to me. [sarcasm off]

John

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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Chem...@clubnet.net wrote in article
<ChemTeam-101...@db1-ppp9.dial.clubnet.net>...


> In article <32852ec7...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, an...@ix.netcom.com
> (Ankit Desai) wrote:
>
> > My opinion on tudying in America as a current 12th grader:
> >
> > Right now, I am taking all Advanced Placement courses and notice that
> > a majority of the students are foreigners, mainly Asian.
>
> Most of them are US citizens of Asian extraction.

> {some deletia}

Well, John, it sounds as if you may have a problem with a *foriegner*
commenting on our educatinal system at all, especially if it isn't
flattering. It cannot be denied that students in our education system are
falling behind students in other parts of the world at an alarming rate. I
also know, from first hand experience what our educational system is like,
and how much it leaves to be desired. I was born and raised in the US, red
haired and freckle-faced as any other American girl, and now I am going to
back up Ms. Desai's comments. I know for a fact that we have 3 main
problems in this educational system.

1.) Bad teachers - When you have teachers fighting to not take the same
type of tests that their students have to take because they are afraid they
themselves will fail them, there is obviously a problem with our education
of and certification for teachers. I had to take High School Chemistry and
Physics from a teacher that had only had a semester of College Chemistry
and a semester of College Physics! I became his student aide, and wound up
reading ahead in our textbooks so that I could teach the classes! This is
abhorent and not to be accepted in our schools.

2.) Good teachers that are not supported - I have witnessed first hand
situations where teachers were demanding the best out of a child, but the
parents, the administration, or other teachers (usually coaches) undercut
the efforts the good teachers were making. When I was in grade school, our
teachers would divide the class into reading groups based on the current
reading level of each student. The teacher would then teach each group
based on the skills already gained by the student. The purpose of this was
to not hold back gifted or better educated students, while at the same time
working on the skills of the students that were in the lower level groups
to get them at least to the level needed to pass the grade, if not to get
them into the highest level reading group before that year of school was
over. This method seemed to work very well, until some parents became
embarrassed because their children weren't in the highest level groups.
Instead of spending extra time to work with their children and help them
rise to that level, these parents insisted that the divisions be abolished.
Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their
accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level.

3.) Cessation and Discouragement of competion between students - This
overlaps my previous point slightly, but it is a salient point in itself
that must be addressed. Whether it be a posting of students with the
highest gpa for the grade period, or the naming of the person with the best
smile, class clown, and the most likely to succeed, the recognition of
students who distinguish themselves is slowly being stomped out. The
purpose of this is to supposedly 'keep children from feeling bad or left
out' because they did not make whatever list of distinction. All this does
is encourage acting the same as everyone else and doing the same as
everyone else. We are promoting medeocrity and only have ourselves to
blame when America becomes the country of Cookie Cutter People.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now <smile>
Angie
--
Tanstaafl
'There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.'
-Robert Heinlein

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to


Michael Hodges <mwho...@msn.com> wrote in article
<01bbce4d$8666ac60$ee43...@178136520worldnet.att.net>...


> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?
>

Hi Michael,
I am a far cry from an expert, I am merely a product of the educational
system in the U.S. I do however have an insiders view of what is happening
in the schools from simply being a student. Right now, the only thing I
have to offer in response are a few disturbing situations and occurences.

1.) When I was taking H.S. Chemistry, it was being taught by a teacher
that did not have a masters degree, and he only had one Semester of College
Chemistry. Those were his qualifications to teach that class. Needless to
say, even though I made straight A's in that course, and passed the final
exam with a 98, I was sorely unprepared for College Chemistry.

2.) There used to be a system in my high school for wieghting gpa's based
on courses taken. If you were taking an AP course, then an A was worth 6,
B= 5, etc. If it was an excellerated or advanced course, A=5, B=4, etc. If
it was a standard course, the standard GPA applied. If it was a remedial
course, A=3, B=2, etc. This resulted in students hesitating to take a
remedial course simply because it was simpler, and also encouraged
accelerated students to take as many advanced courses as possible. One
year, a student who had taken only remedial courses and gotten straight A's
did not get Valedictorian, a student that was taking accelerated and AP
courses also got straight A's and did get valedictorian. The mother of the
remedial student went to the board of education and raised so much dreck
that the board changed the numbering system. Now, a student that spent 4
years slaving away at advanced courses got no more recognition than a
student that decided to breeze through 4 years of remedial mush.

3.) A high school recently decided that they would no longer have their
'Most...' or 'Best...' pages in their yearbook anymore. There will be no
more 'Best Smile', 'Class Clown', or most likely to succeed for a short
list. The reasoning given was that they did not want to make students that
were not mentioned feel bad. In other words, not recognize distinction,
merely encourage medeocrity.

I do not know if this list sheds any light on some of the reasons for our
decline in public education effectiveness, but I hope it will do so. This
is a very stimulating discussion, and perhaps we can come up with a
solution in this newsgroup!


-Angie

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Ankit,
Thanks for your brave and thoughtful comments. I commend you sharing your
insights and contribution to this posting string I started. They helped me.
My instinct is that you have great value and want to achieve, but need to
find a way to another institution. I hope your family and their friends can
help you find the best school home from which to truly challenge your
capacity to learn.

I hope you don't mind if this grandfather recounts a story, of which you
reminded him:
Some years ago I was running a large German firm, and I will never forget a
young engineer from India who applied for a job - - , and without proper
legal work papers. The large engineering staff was not interested. But, I
was already shaking up that cozy, low-performing department for various
reasons, and by accident I met this young man from India and invited him
for a coffee. I saw this fire, this desire to succeed, and the measurable
quality of his education and work experience, and the fact that he had
self-taught himself German. Although certain payroll reductions were in
process to rebalance the firm, I ordered the personnel department to put
him on the payroll and assigned him certain tasks, reporting direct to me.
It was one of the luckiest and smartest things I did in that tenure. Not
only was he darn smart and extremely well-educated in engineering and math,
but this fellow was motivated to achieve beyond the pressures of being
non-German, and he was determined- - and achieve he did. Five years later
he was Director of Engineering of a very profitable firm, and his staff
respected him. He earned it the old fashioned way: preparation and hard
work that paid off for the firm and saved jobs of others. I do not recount
this story because he was from your country, as I have had the privilege of
managing many super-achievers from many nations. But, (for some reason)
when I read your posting (in my mind's eye) I saw his face. I hope you
understand. My message is: be proud of what you are and from where you
came, speak your mind in our free country, and be the best that you want to
be - - and, set your goals higher than you believe possible to achieve and
work your 'fanny off.' For this, you need the best education you can get.
Accept nothing but the very best, but please make sure you figure out how
to measure what is the best before you decide.

With the risk of boring you, I recount another short story about
achievement. My wife and I volunteer at a guidedog school for the blind. We
gain more from this experience than we give of our time. Example: meeting a
29 year old, blind from birth going for his Ph.D. in tax accounting with
guidedog, cane and laptop computer - - at the top of his class. Obviously
he was not in the public school system with that handicap - - no, he was
mostly self-taught, and scored so high in his SAT's that no university
dared not admit him. Now, that's a challenge. And, he's still running
scared because of his handicap as he faces job interviews this spring. I
tell him not to worry as most firms could care less about handicaps, all
they care about is what can you do for them - - and, on that criteria he
has nothing to worry about.

Yes. There are a lot of achievers out there - - our nation just needs to
find better ways to have more than are coming up. I'll bet you are one of
them.
Good luck.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:


An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm
An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Ankit Desai <an...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article <
> My opinion on studying in America as a current 12th grader:
> I came from India in 1989.
snip to save space -

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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Greg,
Thanks for your comments.
One of them <<In some countries, algebra is offered at an earlier grade

> level than it is in the US--it shouldn't be surprising that students at
> that grade level outperformed US students on that test. >>

Can you comment on which grades and how much earlier to same?
And, why would U.S. schools not offer said math at an earlier grade than we
do? Is there some advantage to the students to be later rather than sooner?


I can certainly agree with you how difficult it is to make sense out of
many press reports. You commented<<On tests of areas in which educational


opportunity was equated among the nations, American students did quite
well.>>

If you have the data I would appreciate receiving a copy by email, so I can
better understand the type of test, which nations, date, who administered,
etc.

sincerely,
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com


Persuter

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

>Michael Hodges wrote:
>>
>> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
>> poorly compared to foreign students?
>>

>>snipped>
>> --
>> Michael Hodges
>> mwho...@msn.com
>>

In other countries, the privilege of education is afforded only to the best
and the brightest. Here in the USA, we teach every last man jack at
least to the tenth grade level, something most other countries can't boast.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Persuter
O-
ronald...@access.texas.gov
"Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your
intelligence to buy a drink" -e.e. cummings, Humanity i love you
Quid est tam incertam quam telorum? -Cicero, de divinatione II, 121
(What is more uncertain that a cast of the dice?)

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to


Michael Hodges <mwho...@msn.com> wrote in article

<01bbcf77$a712b6e0$bb51...@178136520worldnet.att.net>...
(snip)
> 1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to
> level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished.
> . Would you elaborate on how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers
as a >group back each other up with 'group power' to thereby bring the
pressure to cause >a screeching halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the
repercussions expected career
> threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids?
>
> 2. Another of your powerful comments<<Cessation and Discouragement of
> competion between students>> and <<the recognition of


> students who distinguish themselves is slowly being stomped out.>>

> What are the options, and how can concerned grandparents and the
> better teachers who want this abuse stopped, do something about this? It
is
> apparent many parents and administrators are not your allies. Who are
your
> allies?
>
> BTW: what class do you teach?
> Michael Hodges
> mwho...@msn.com
>

> Flame Wine <flme...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
> <01bbcf63$fe935140$021635cf@HHZF41A>...
> >
> snipped to save server load - - but others should read this posting.
>
Michael,

Thanks for your response to my posting. I would like to get one thing
clear up front though. I am not a teacher, the closest I have come is
tutoring Algebra when I was in college, and that experience was thanks to a
WONDERFUL Calculus teacher that saw my thirst for mathematics and attempted
to encourage it as well as reinforce the knowledge I already had. I have
thought about becoming a teacher, but it scares me silly. I don't know if
I could handle the apathy and seeming incompetence of some of the teachers
with whom I know I would have to work. The capability of the school board
to bow to the wishes of parents that are merely selfish and wish
recognition for their children without having to put the effort into
helping the child perform above average, is also something I don't believe
I could handle. No, I am merely a 30 year old mother of two that is
looking at my children entering the public school system within the next
year, and wish to give them as good a chance as they can possibly get, in
addition to being mad as hell at the sorry state of the educational system
I went through.(Pardon my French, please)

To answer your questions:

1. The parents found out about the reading groups during an open house at
school. They then proceeded to take the 'problem' to the Board of
Education. By using highly inflamatory and inaccurate statements about the
process, they gained support of many of the parents of 'lower' achievers
(please pardon my use of that wording, but I cannot think of a nicer way to
put it at the moment) who thought their children were being subjected to
ridicule instead of being encouraged to advance themselves. Of course, no
logic in the world can reason with the emotional arguments that were
advanced, and it definately cannot reason with a parent who thinks that
their child is being harmed in some way. The tremendous pressure on the
school board caused them to forbid that kind of *segregation* of students
in the future. The teachers have to present a lesson plan at the beginning
of the school year, and the ones that presented plans that included this
separation of students were told in no uncertain terms that their lesson
plans were unacceptable, and to change them.

2. I don't know if there is a defined group of people I can call allies.
The people that could help are parents that are like mine were; they went
to school whenever they thought there might be a problem. They refused to
back me merely because I was their child. They backed the teachers and the
school on everything unless they saw the teacher was clearly in the wrong,
then they fought like tigers for me. They refused to take excuses and
would not, under any circumstances accept something that was less than they
thought was my best effort. Other allies I had in school were teachers
that fanned any spark of interest in an area of learning they found a
student had. They put in extra time with students that were a little
behind They put in extra time with students who were grasping a subject so
quickly that they were in danger of becoming bored, they *worked* at being
teachers and giving the precious gift of knowledge wherever they could.
The administration is not in the business of providing an education, they
are in the business of running a business, and they should be restricted to
doing that, not influencing what methods a teacher uses to impart
knowledge.

The only way that I can conceive of this being stopped is for good teachers
and concerned parents and grandparents to help this situation is to get out
of the mind set that if something is logical, it will make sense to the
opposition. The opposition usually uses emotions to win and if we are
going to fight this, we have to find some way to evoke the same emotional
support on our side.


-Angie

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Angie,
You did it again. Just darn good prose with too darn much logic for some,
based on your own experience. Don't you dare leave that soapbox.

one of your good observations: <<A high school recently decided that they


would no longer have their 'Most...' or 'Best...' pages in their yearbook
anymore. There will be no more 'Best Smile', 'Class Clown', or most likely
to succeed for a short
list. The reasoning given was that they did not want to make students that
were not mentioned feel bad. In other words, not recognize distinction,

merely encourage mediocrity.>>

I recall at my own 35th high school reunion the one who most succeeded by
everyone's agreement was the gal who was voted "the most likely to succeed"
in our class yearbook. There was no doubt among we adults, despite our
childhood memories. She had been recognized by her classmates then, and she
deserved it then and later. Now, those highschool yearbooks are imperfect,
but only sometimes. I was then voted most athletic with 5 sports letters,
but went on to physics and business because I was not good enough to make
first team on a university football team. Bad call by my classmates, but
the upside is I have no broken bones.

But your main point<<not recognize distinction, merely encourage
mediocrity>> is right on. You have a gift with few words.

I am troubled why so many fight against the search for and encouragement of
excellence, and how many continually try and justify why measurable
standards of performance (like SATs, foreign comparison tests, etc.) is not
only unnecessary but dangerous to students. You probably have seen the
following quote: There's no such thing as outcome-based competition to
make sure nobody's feelings get hurt. The real world is not a padded romper
room at McDonald's." R. Lutz, President Chrysler Corporation.

If those advocating zero standards of performance tried to get a job in a
successful international company they might like to eliminate financial
statements, product quality standards & goals and satisfying their
investors (shareholders) - - because its better to just feel good. Wonder
how they would feel if their paycheck stopped. And, that's what is
happening to real median family incomes in our nation and has happened to
the international value of our currency -- - and the real foreign
competition has just started.

Keep on that soapbox. I'll bet I am not the only one listening.

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to


Michael Hodges <mwho...@msn.com> wrote in article

<01bbce4d$8666ac60$ee43...@178136520worldnet.att.net>...


> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?

> (snip)

Michael,

I am sure everyone is getting tired of this non-expert giving her
opinions, but I felt that I must mention two other things that I have not
seen mentioned in this thread.

One of the greatest causes of students not living up to their potential is
other students. I'm not sure why this is the case, but students that do
well in school are constantly ridiculed and abused (sometimes to the point
of physical harm) by their classmates. Some teachers grade on a curve, and
of course, the student that excels and actually gets an A on a test ruins
the curve for the other students. I am sure that is a factor, but a lot of
this abuse occurs in grade school. When I was in grade school, our
teachers graded us merely on the numbers. I did not even know that a curve
system existed until Jr. high. Is there any information on why achievement
is so abhored by students? Students are expected by other students to say
they hate school, hate going to class, hate doing homework and if they
don't are labeled *freaks*.I loved school, I couldn't get enough of it, but
when others started bellyaching about how terrible it was to have to go to
school and class I didn't dare challenge them. I would have been a social
outcast.

The other problem is test anxiety and the lack of knowledge of how to take
a test. I had no idea this problem existed for a long time. I took tests
and enjoyed them. Many years later, I talked to people who told me of
their problems in taking tests, I was amazed! I had discovered tricks and
shortcuts that helped me score higher on tests than other people with the
same amount of knowledge. I do think that students should be taught from a
very early age how to take tests and the timesavers that can be used on
them. The tricks I used were not in any way cheating, but I believe they
got me higher scores. For example, when I took tests like the California
Achievement test, or any other timed test that required filling out a sheet
with "bubbles," I went through and merely marked each answer with a dash,
and when the teacher took up the booklets and told us to make sure that
each bubble was filled in completely, I went back and filled the bubbles
in. Other students followed the directions to the letter, and as they
chose each answer, filled in the bubble. This allowed me to answer many
more questions in the allotted time than other students, but shows nothing
of my level of learning, reading comprehension, etc. I do honestly believe
that if we taught our students how to take tests, the scores would go up.

(More from the soapbox later) <smile>

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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ck...@cyberg8t.com wrote in article <3286b96f.3372810@news>...
(snip)
> Teachers at my school DO fight for what we think is best for our
students. The superintendent of the school system in which I work (it is a
> private school system) has pretty much decided that we will eventually be
> changing our high school to a block schedule. This is in spite of the
fact that
> the majority of the faculty on staff do not believe this to be in the
best
> interest of our students.
> Who the heck will save these kids? You expect the teachers to do it? Damn
it,
> but I'm tired every day I come home from work and I don't feel like
fighting
> these battles alone. How about the parents and community joining in?
After all,
> don't the schools belong to the parents and the community? If you ask me,
they
> are getting exactly what they want and are willing to support. Still,
some of us
> teachers do try to do what we think is in the best interest of the
students, in
> spite of the opposition we get from both admin and parents.
>
> Sheila King
> ( snipped somewhat)

Sheila,

I believe you, and I back you. Thank you for caring about what you do,
but are there *any* teachers in your school that shouldn't be there for any
reason of which you can think? I believe that the problems in our system
are coming from all directions, teachers that don't care, students that are
apathetic, parents that aren't sure what grade their children are in, much
less what they are doing at school, administrators that are bean counters
and a society that believes that schools should be mommy, daddy and baby
sitter to their children.

What kind of things could parents and the rest of your community do to help
the situation. Come on, give us some ideas no one can help if we don't
know what you need exactly.


Joyce Howard

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Michael Hodges <mwho...@msn.com> wrote in article
<01bbce4d$8666ac60$ee43...@178136520worldnet.att.net>...
> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> poorly compared to foreign students?

This is a very interesting discussion in this newsgroup so far.

I'm not sure that I qualify as an expert, but I have trained elementary
school teachers all over the U.S. in a hands-on math curriculum for the
past ten years. I have held parent meetings and seminars about math
education. We have also hosted foreign exchange students in our home from
several different countries. Here are a few of my theories:

1. The data is misleading. Most countries do not have as many students
taking higher level math and science courses as ours. The tracking towards
college vs. professional school starts in some countries around 6th grade.

2. Most of the elementary school teachers are language arts lovers; very
few really like math that much. Consequently they do more creative units
and spend more time on other subjects and just do what they have to do with
math (too often teaching straight from the books). Many students sense
these insecurities and dislikes. Many of them are bored with math,
especially if the teacher doesn't understand it well enough to teach it in
an interesting and creative manner. You don't send your child to a music
teacher who hates music... why math and science? Unfortunately many
students have a very poor attitude towards math and science before they get
to algebra and biology.

3. Math and science teachers in some countries are more highly trained in
their respective areas. Many college math and science majors are hired by
industry for higher salaries than they would make teaching math and
science. Consequently for teachers in the U.S. you get education majors
with only a few courses in math and science. My sons have had algebra
teachers who said that they had had only 3 or 4 college math courses. One
of them even admitted that she had to have her son help her through them
because she couldn't understand it.

4. With all the current corporate downsizing I believe we could get some
really good math teachers if the school systems would pay for years of
experience in industry and not only years of teaching. In most places a
person who has been an engineer, chemist, etc. for 30 years must start
teaching at the same salary as a 22-year-old college grad. Plus they would
have to go back to college to get their education courses before they could
get a teaching certificate, even if they had been doing corporate training
courses for years. Where's the logic in that?

5. Our attitudes in this country about math are different. How many times
have you heard an adult say (or maybe said yourself), "I'm no good at math.
I never liked it and didn't do very good at math in school. Get someone
else to help you with your homework."??? Women are especially bad about
saying that to children. How can you expect a child to learn it when mom
or dad couldn't do it either? But no one ever says, "I never could learn
to read. I understand why you're having trouble with that." It's socially
acceptable to be poor in math, but not to be illiterate. Exchange students
that I've asked about this tell me that it's not as common in their
countries to have people admit they aren't good in math.

These are my opinions -- worth only what you paid for them! My apologies
to the good math and science teachers out there -- we desperately need more
like you.

Joyce Howard

Alan Tubman

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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Joanne Leavitt <ac...@lafn.org> wrote in article
<1996Nov11.0...@lafn.org>...
>
> Richard, I like a lot of what you have to say, but am dismayed by
> your trashing of the program for pregnant and parenting teens.
> To me, this is one of the most effective programs we have developed
> locally.

Joanne,
I agree with you. As a country we must develop everyone to their full
potential.
Alan Tubman
>

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Richard,
I like all of your postings. You are providing good insights. But the only
mess-up is you left out the web address of your posting below. I would like
to get it.
Thanks, again.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

.htm

Richard <rich...@southconn.com> wrote in article
<32856B...@southconn.com>...

Joanne Leavitt

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Dick, I think you are very right. The only Math course my kids
took in highschool that they could see the use for was Statistics.
Most schools don't teach this, but it is an easy way to bring
math into the real world. Things kids have a "real world" interest
in like baseball stats can be used. Not to mention a link with
Political Science courses. <g>

--
I am not young enough to know everything.
James M. Barrie


Joanne Leavitt

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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Richard, I like a lot of what you have to say, but am dismayed by
your trashing of the program for pregnant and parenting teens.
To me, this is one of the most effective programs we have developed

locally. Our girls stay in school, they learn effective parenting
skills, proper nutrition for their children, and have far fewer
second pregnancies in the next five years than the girls who do not
opt for the program. We have taken it one step farther and our
city provides childcare, not babysitting, but effective early child-
hood education, for two years of community college. This is an
investment. these girls will come out with skills that will allow
them to effectively support their children and the proper training
to be good parents. We are talking nationally about breaking the
chain of welfare involvement...this is one of the most cost effective
ways I have seen to do so.

Steve McGrew

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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>Michael Hodges wrote:
>>
>> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
>> poorly compared to foreign students?
>>

>>snipped>
>> --
>> Michael Hodges
>> mwho...@msn.com

Last year I encountered a young lady who had met all requirements for a BA in
microbiology-- except passing a calculus course. A very bright, dedicated
student. She was distraught because she had flunked calculus three times, and
halfway through the term she was flunking it again. I offered to tutor her,
and after two sessions her problem was obvious: she had never been taught in
high school algebra to write her calculations in a neat, organized fashion and
to check her accuracy at each step. It took two more sessions to straighten
her out, and she earned a B by the end of the term.

What went wrong in high school? I'm not sure, but I'd guess her teacher
either didn't know how to diagnose her problem or did not demand a high
standard of performance. Or maybe the class was too big. I'll bet the four
hours of one-on-one that I spent with her was more than she got from her high
school teacher in two years of algebra.

==================================================================
| Steve McGrew, President | ste...@comtch.iea.com |
| New Light Industries, Ltd. | Phone: (509) 456-8321 |
| 9713 W. Sunset Hwy | Fax: (509) 456-8351 |
| Spokane, WA 99204 USA | http://www.iea.com/~nli |
==================================================================

James David Button

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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As a teacher of 28 years in the public schools, I offer some
insight, but not expertise, on the topic.

When I started teaching 28 years ago, the school was the center
of the community, the parents knew what their children were
doing both at school and at home, the parents knew where their
children were, and the parents were acting as parents. They
had not "given the children to the school."

At the present, this is not the situation. The school is not
central to the community, the parents frequently see their
children only on weekends, they do not know where their
children are, what they are doing, and with whom they are
spending time. The parents have "given their children" to the
school/school system. They are all too often too busy with
making money to afford fancy houses and cars to worry about
anything other than themselves.

While it is true that there are teachers who should not be
teaching, there are also lawyers who should not be lawyering,
doctors who should not be doctoring, etc. The ed.bus. is not
the only site of incompetent members.

Along these lines, there are people who are trying to run
education lke a business -- schools are not a business. The
same principles cannot be applied to turning out students as
can be applied to turning out refrigerators, cars, whatever.
We must remember also, that the warranty that comes with those
products is based upon not only the factory work but also on
the raw materials. When we can get guaranteed raw materials,
we can probably begin to guarantee our products.

As one with a vested interest in math and science, I can only
say "Amen" to some of the comments I have read. Many teachers
do not feel comfortable with math and science, therefore they
neglect these topics, particularly at the elementary level;
however, as has also been pointed out the US tries to teach
EVERY student the same thing, if possible. The idea of
determining what a child's fate is going to be when that child
is in the lower grades is anathema to the American Education
System (whatever that means). We believe that everyone should
be given the opportunity to succeed.

I do not presume to say that every student CAN succeed as
highly as every other student; however, given the capability of
the student, he should be given as much opportunity to succeed
as any other child. This is the "American Way".

With regard to the removal of incentives and rewards for
excellence, I agree with several writers. These spur people
on. At the present time there is a regression toward
mediocrity in the schools, but this is because we want to make
sure that they child doesn't "fail". If one does not fail in
life, then one has not lived, IMHO. To never fail is to go
through life without challenges. How many of us have never
overcome an obstacle and not learned from it?

Concerning parental involvement. In my years in the classroom,
the parents I have meet on back-to-school night have generally
been the parents of the better students. These parents are
involved with their kids, their kid's education, and their
kid's life. They are being PARENTS not biological progenators.

What can teacher's do? Unless someone can figure out a way to
convince the population at large of the solution, I'm afraid
that there isn't much. The threat of lawsuit keeps many school
boards /divisions from enforcing high standards because someone
might fail and file suit over it. This mentality trickles down
to the "teacher level", and many teachers succumb to it.

Many parents, and their corresponding children, want to go
through life with no waves, nothing to disturb their own little
life-style. They want to be warm, well-fed, and comfortable.
If anything disturbs this, they want no part of it.

This may seem rambling, but that's often the way math and
science types think -- one thought leads to another.

My advice to parents, and I am one -- a college freshman (who
wants to be a teacher) and a high school sophomore, is to get
involved with your child's education. Attend the PTA meetings,
support the music program, go to public hearings and express
your voice, serve on division committees, make the principal
and/or superintendent aware of you and who you are. The
squeeky wheel gets the grease -- just look at your division's
budget and see where the money goes -- that's where the squeeks
are.

Finally, on the math/science topic. I suspect that if you took
our "best" and put them up against other nations' "best" we
would do all right. There isi more to math and science than
being able to work problems and take tests. How many of the
students from these other countries can "APPLY" the knowledge
that they have. My son, who went to a comprehensive high
school (public) and his Odyssey of the Mind team regularly beat
out the Math/Science/Technology Magnet school -- not because
they were smarted (they weren't) but because they had developed
teamwork AND they recruited people with different talents who
could APPLY what they had learned. On a written test, they
probably would not have done as well, but when push came to
shove to prepare a USEFUL PRODUCT they won.

There is more to science and math than scoring well on
international tests. Science is DOING, not memorizing for a
test.

The opinions expressed in this posting are my own and do not
necessarily reflect my school, my division, or my state. We in
the education business are also seeking answers -- we know that
there is a problem, now we want to fix it. But education is
not a panacea, it is only a tool.

---
If it moves and shouldn't, use duct tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use WD-40.
Dave Button -- Science Department
Osbourn Park High School
Prince William County Public Schools
8909 Euclid Avenue
Manassas, Virginia, 22111
Those who can, teach; those who can't teach find another occupation.
Anonymous
The second most important job in the world, second only to being a
good parent, is being a good teacher.
S. G. Ellis

trm

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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There are a few things that are not being mentioned here, though I haven't
read everyone most recent postings.

1. The students in many other countries are taught differently. They
have different topics in the courses and those topics are often in a
different order than the american texts. Few american schools teach
algebra I in the seventh grade, for instance, as many asian schools do.
One of my african students had an algebra/general science book that did
not do into nearly as much depth in either course as an american algebra
or science book would, but the students got a more immediate sense of the
material. Just different, not necessarily better or worse. These
differences show up in standardized testing because some students haven't
seen all of the material or have not dealt with in the same ways.

2. To those who complain that immigrant students or international
students are better, remember the laws of selection. Parents who are
willing to pack up a family and move around the world to start over from
scratch have initiative, desire to improve life, and an unwillingness to
bear injustice or the status quo. Is it any wonder their children are
more motivated to study four and five hours each night? Students who are
sent to this country for an education also are "selected." Education is
expensive. Most likely, funds would not be spent on a weak student.

3. A third point: If this country is so terrible, why does the rest of
the world send their children here? The answer is that we are good in
math and science, despite what the press reports have said. In this
country, any student, regardless of intelligence or disability, can get a
good education, if he or she wants it. Poorer students have to work
harder to get it but it can be done.

4. Finally, why do public school always seem to fare worse than private
schools? The answer again is simple: selection. The private schools
don't accept anyone below a certain ability; of course their averages are
higher.


Over to you ....


Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

James,
I liked your contribution. Hope you don't mind if I repeat some of it.
Your comment<<With regard to the removal of incentives and rewards for

excellence, I agree with several writers. These spur people on. At the
present time there is a regression toward mediocrity in the schools, but
this is because we want to make sure that they child doesn't "fail". If
one does not fail in life, then one has not lived, IMHO. To never fail is
to go through life without challenges. How many of us have never overcome
an obstacle and not learned from it?>>

Your observations on this point appears to coincide with that of many other
teachers here. How, in your opinion, could this <regression toward
mediocrity in the schools> be reversed, as it appears you think this a
must?

Your comment<<The threat of lawsuit keeps many school boards /divisions


from enforcing high standards because someone might fail and file suit over
it. This mentality trickles down to the "teacher level", and many teachers
succumb to it.>>

This lawsuit threat thing crops up all over the place, and is conveniently
used by many to justify non-action - - in my experience. Example: local
police will not provide a requesting parent with driver violation info on
his kid so he can try and find out some inside info for control purposes -
- might be sued. My mother was in the hospital last week on voting day and
wanted to vote absentee. I got the ballot for her, but hospital employees
refused to sign as witnesses - - could be liable for lawsuit. The local
fire department refused to make recommendations to
a requesting homeowner as to best way to eliminate an old, rusting
in-ground LPG gas tank - - could be sued, you know.

Your comment<<When I started teaching 28 years ago, the school was the


center
of the community, the parents knew what their children were doing both at
school and at home, the parents knew where their children were, and the
parents were acting as parents. They had not "given the children to the

school." The present, this is not the situation. The school is not central


to the community, the parents frequently see their children only on
weekends, they do not know where their children are, what they are doing,

and with whom they are spending time with>>

You proposed that parents become more involved. I fully agree. But, many
parents simply blame the teachers and the system. So, at half-time the game
is deadlocked, and the students lose.
I read your statement of experience as a long term (at least 28 year) trend
in this regard, which coincides with many quality measures of 35 years or
so. Is there a way to get this reversed other than refusing to pass
students to the next grade, or giving them a diploma? If administrators
would back up teachers who make this call, would that not shock a few such
parents into a little reality? If such is worthwhile, how the heck can it
be implemented based on your experience? Something fundamental must change
for the 2nd half of our game.

Lastly, your comment <<This may seem rambling, but that's often the way
math and
science types think -- one thought leads to another.>> Don't apologize,
James. I have the same problem, having
been educated in physics. Let's agree you are in good company. And, I hope
you don't mind but I made a special copy of your <<If it moves and
shouldn't, use duct tape.If it doesn't move and should, use WD-40.>
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm
An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

James David Button <jbu...@pen.k12.va.us> wrote in article
<E0ppG...@pen.k12.va.us>...


> As a teacher of 28 years in the public schools, I offer some

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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I recall a German father sending me his 15-year old daughter to further her
English, although she had already had 5 years of schooling in this
'foreign' language. We put her to a local private school, which offers
calculus to seniors and has very high SAT results. Shortly she was at the
top of her class in solid geometry and history. Her language education even
included our words for radius, diameter, constitution, etc, and she had
already had trig. and 2 years of physics and 3 years of history. In my
judgment, her IQ (I did not measure it) was average, but the quality and
breadth of her education was obvious. She would be quite the competitor to
her US counterparts regarding many areas, especially including real
language skills. When she returned to Germany she was not given credit for
her U.S. year (her father knew that when he sent her), which caused her to
graduate one year later than planned. Citing one example does not make any
case, but space is limited.

Bottom line: I think few would doubt that we could do much better - - and
must. The challenge is what can grandparents, parents and teachers do about
it. I am concerned for my own grandchildren.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Angie,
Thanks for jumping into the posting string I started. Your comments are
excellent, and ought to be broadcast as far as possible. Hope you don't
mind if I ask about a few:

1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to
level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished.

Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their
accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level> I
must agree that students would therefore have no reason to be proud of
their accomplishments, and the achieving students were the losers. What a
negative impression for future motivation to excel. Would you elaborate on

how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers as a group back each other
up with 'group power' to thereby bring the pressure to cause a screeching
halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the repercussions expected career
threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids?

2. Another of your powerful comments<<Cessation and Discouragement of
competion between students>> and <<the recognition of


students who distinguish themselves is slowly being stomped out.>>

Powerful, sad, but believable. Our performance shows it. If I were a label
thrower I would label what is happening to these young people: "student
abuse." What are the options, and how can concerned grandparents and the


better teachers who want this abuse stopped, do something about this? It is
apparent many parents and administrators are not your allies. Who are your
allies?

BTW: what class do you teach?

3. And, your comment<Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now <smile>>> Angie,
please get back on your soapbox. We need to hear more and then see if just
this small group can come up with some ideas. It must start somewhere, and
I believe teacher power must come forth. <smile>
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm
An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Flame Wine <flme...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article

Jim Lyons

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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Persuter wrote:

> In other countries, the privilege of education is afforded only to the best
> and the brightest. Here in the USA, we teach every last man jack at
> least to the tenth grade level, something most other countries can't boast.

This is not true, at least not at the elementary level. All industrial
societies send almost all of their children to school through the
6th grade.

Education is *not* a privilege in those countries but a duty, a duty
which is taken seriously by parents as well as teachers, and even by
students.

We pity ourselves too much when we bemoan the "fact" that we send
more of our kids to school than other countries do or that we have
a more diverse student body and therefore cannot hope to match
the achievements in other countries. E. D. Hirsch and Stevenson &
Stigler put these myths pretty much to rest. The educational
systems in other industrial nations (and this also includes China,
which is more or a third-world nation) are almost always better
than ours, even when factors such as diversity are controlled for.

--
Jim Lyons | Operating Systems Specialist
Computation Center | 512-475-9331
University of Texas at Austin | j.l...@cc.utexas.edu
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~koala

me

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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ste...@comtch.iea.com (Steve McGrew) wrote:
[snip]

Try teaching for a few years and all of your questions will be
answered.

Basically, tutoring always yeilds better results. Pay a teacher to
tutor one-to-one, rather than 38-to-one and you'll see vastly improved
grades, right? ...especially if you count many year of experience
mixed with ability. Of course, your taxes might increase somewhat if
you want the one-to-one structure (in order to acheive what you
believe to be possible.) Think of it! an inner city school replete
with drug problems and other crime, with a population of 2000 pupils
would need 2000 teachers. Of course, you would then also need more
staff to take care of any discipline problems, etc. etc. etc..

Sorry, but comparison of the privelege of tutoring with a normal
teaching environment is totally absurd (and, unfortunately quite
common.)


Jim Lyons

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Chem...@clubnet.net wrote:

> If Japan et al have been doing so well for so long, where are their
> achievements? Quick, name me the last Japanese citizen trained in Japan to
> win a Nobel Prize? You can't because that person does not exist.
>
> Go down the line and you see that the US has generally produced the
> original inventions or laid the basic theory in a given field. This is not
> to say that great contributions have not been made by other countries
> because they have.

In an earlier post I talked a little about "The Learning Gap" by
Stevenson and Stigler. Concerning the above point, they note that
Japan is less interested in letting individual students shine and
more concerned with every student doing well. Therefore, except
in exceptional cases, students are not tracked, at least at the
elementary level. While S&S acknowledge that Americans have many
Nobel prizes and other signs of achievements, they say this is the
result of a rather narrow stratum of high-achievers, with the large
majority of students left behind. It's somewhat similar to a
society which has gleaming cities which hide squalid ghettos where
the majority of people live.

> The US writes the most textbooks and publishes the most papers. The action
> is here in pure research as well as application development.

Some if it is certainly due to the need to publish in order to
beef up a CV or gain tenure. I wonder how much would be published
if scholars and researchers only published when they had something
they really wanted to say?



> Finally, I consider much of the testing suspect. Some (many?) of the
> people involved in interpeting and publicizing these data are the same
> people that compete for grants to "solve" the problems. can we say
> "conflict of interest?" Also, remember these tests compare apples and
> oranges. We in the US are committed to educating all in the "college-prep"
> track. Most other countries steer kids into alternate programs. So these
> tests compare the top 5-10% of other countries against a cross-section of
> US kids. [sarcasm on] Sounds pretty fair to me. [sarcasm off]

Actually, American kids do poorly when such factors as you've mentioned
are controlled for. E. D. Hirsch talks about this some in "The Schools
We Need."

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Thanks to all.
In just the 2nd day after posting the subject of this thread, I am truly
impressed with the quality, diversity and quantity of responses - - and of
the obvious sincerity of those participating. I am especially impressed
with the contributions from teachers and students, and excellent inputs
from parents. One thing is clear to me: nearly all share concern for
education quality, agree we must do much, much better, and yet there has
been a minimum of finger-pointing. From what I have witnessed in some other
newsgroups, this is one of the best - - as I define best. Many start off
their statement with "I may not be an expert, but - - ". That's my fault,
as I should not have started the opening posting with "which expert will
comment - - -" . Sorry. Let's just agree that anyone who is sincerely
concerned and wishes for better quality, and wants to contribute inputs and
solution suggestions, is here defined as The Expert. Go for it, experts!

I hope you will keep at it a bit longer, and that others will join in.
Don't be timid, or feel bad about being on a 'soapbox'. Heck, this is our
information highway - lets use it. All want to learn and do something. And,
let's hear more of "I would recommend - - or here's what must be done to
get at this quality thing - - ." I sense what many good teachers are up
against, but if they can speak out clearly on what and how, I think we will
learn a lot. If anyone wants to write me direct via email, I will try and
answer as best I can.

Sincerely


Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com
The Grandfather Economic Report-

Flame Wine

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to


Gerald A. de Jong <g...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<5683cf$6...@news.xs4all.nl>...


> "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> >poorly compared to foreign students?
>

> who's an expert?
>
> i think:
>
> * north america is much more a culture of distraction
> (lots of tv, fragmented superficial shows, blast advertisements).
>
> * educators are probably not as refined and developed, and
> perhaps less serious about their role.
>
> * in many other places, there's a different sense of discipline.
>
Gerald,
I have to agree with you that America is more a culture of distraction than
other countries listed here (I assume it was that to which you were
referring). I agree that in many other places that there is a different
sense of discipline. However, I would like to ask you some questions about
your statements.

If it is granted that North America is more a culture of distraction, how
*exactly* is that affecting the quality of our education?

If it is granted that in many other places there is a different sense of
discipline. A sense of discipline is going to vary from country to
country, does this mean that the sense of discipline in North America is
not a good as it is in other countries? If so, how does that affect the
education North American students receive? What changes should be made to
correct it?

Now, I had to save it for last because I was afraid you might not read any
further once you saw my response to your second statement. What do you
mean, my dear sir, when you say that 'educators are probably not as refined
and developed, and perhaps less serious about their role'? Perhaps you
could clarify that before I blast you in defense of all the caring
dedicated teachers that helped me make it through school with a decent
education, and all the teachers that have made posts to this newsgroup that
show their passion and desire for an *excellent* educational system.

Please, respond to this, I am sure that some of your points are valid, yet
it would be difficult for me to accept any of your comments if I have not
misread your statement.


--Angie

Melvin Billik

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
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fe935140$021635cf@HHZF41A>
<01bbcf77$a712b6e0$bb51...@178136520worldnet.att.net> <3286b96f.3372810@news>:
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Distribution:

ck...@cyberg8t.com wrote:
: "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
:
: >Angie,


: >Thanks for jumping into the posting string I started. Your comments are
: >excellent, and ought to be broadcast as far as possible. Hope you don't
: >mind if I ask about a few:
: >1. your comment reporting on dividing a class into groups according to
: >level of achievement<<parents insisted that the divisions be abolished.
: > Eventually that occured and students had no reason to be proud of their
: >accomplishments nor did they have any reason to strive to a higher level> I
: >must agree that students would therefore have no reason to be proud of
: >their accomplishments, and the achieving students were the losers. What a
: >negative impression for future motivation to excel. Would you elaborate on
: >how "eventually that occurred?" Don't teachers as a group back each other
: >up with 'group power' to thereby bring the pressure to cause a screeching
: >halt to such 'abolishment,' or are the repercussions expected career
: >threatening? If they do not, who the heck will save these kids?

:
: Teachers at my school DO fight for what we think is best for our students. For
: years many of us have been telling the admin that we need more instructional
: time, but things have not improved. Teachers who are demanding actually are
: afraid of being cited for giving out too many low grades or for having too many
: parents or students complain that they are "too hard". The best example I can
: give is this: The superintendent of the school system in which I work (it is a


: private school system) has pretty much decided that we will eventually be
: changing our high school to a block schedule. This is in spite of the fact that
: the majority of the faculty on staff do not believe this to be in the best

: interest of our students. Actually, he may well be oblivious to it. He simply
: has decided. We've been told to expect it, for it is coming, and make
: suggestions as to what type of schedule we would most like in that format, for
: if we try to dig in and fight it we will have no chance to give input and it
: shall come to pass anyway.
:
: Who the heck will save these kids? You expect the teachers to do it? Damn it,


: but I'm tired every day I come home from work and I don't feel like fighting
: these battles alone. How about the parents and community joining in? After all,
: don't the schools belong to the parents and the community? If you ask me, they
: are getting exactly what they want and are willing to support. Still, some of us
: teachers do try to do what we think is in the best interest of the students, in
: spite of the opposition we get from both admin and parents.
:
: Sheila King

Sheila:
We, too, will be going to block scheduling, although the move has been
delayed 2 years.
The Dec. issue of Math Teacher is supposed to have a major feature on
Block Scheduling. It should be quite interesting.
Mel.


Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Well said. Many are so tired when we come home. But, we need solutions and
we have to hear from the better teachers. Maybe we need a teacher quality
union than has nothing to do with money, but only with quality. Some group
must give the wake up call-or else to our society. I think it cannot be
politicians, parents or administrators. I must come from the core: teachers
- - and then, the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please is
a very correct point, you made in my judgment. Thanks for it.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:

Jim Lyons

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

A few weeks ago I read E.D. Hirsch's book "The Schools We Need and Why
we Don't Have Them." Inspired by some comments in that book I then
read, and recently finished, "The Learning Gap" by Stevenson and
Stigler. This book compares schools systems in selected cities in
the U.S., Japan, Taiwan, and China. It offers answers to a lot of
your questions. They compare students over the entire range of courses,
but concentrate on mathematics. They did this, they explained, because
comparisons of verbal and written skills between such radically
different cultures as American and East Asian are very difficult.
It is much easier to compare math skills. I'll try to summarize some
of them based on my memory of what they wrote.

howie wrote:

>
> Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
> > Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> > poorly compared to foreign students?
>
> I'm certainly not an expert and I don't have an answer, but
> your post did generate some questions.
>
> What skills are rewarded here? What skills are rewarded in
> countries in which students are doing well?

What is rewarded in Japan and the Chinas is effort. It is believed
that effort is needed to learn mathematics. They contrast this with
a belief in inborn ability, in which they maintain Americans believe to
a much greater extent than Asians. This has at least two effects.
First, Asian students work harder. They believe that if they work hard
enough, they will understand the material. In America, students tend
to rationalize away poor performance by blaming an inherent inability.
Since there are people who are just not good at math, they reason, why
should they try very hard? The second effect is that students are much
less wary about making mistakes in class. A mistake is not a sign of
stupidity but an indicator of what work needs to be done.

> Are students tracked differently in countries where students
> are doing well? (Apples to apples ...)

Students in the other countries are not tracked at all, unless they are
retarded or, at the other end, gifted.

> What teaching methods are used in countries where students
> are doing well and how do they compare to methods used in
> the United States?

Teachers in Japan and the Chinas present a much slower-paced course but
the results are better because classes are better thought out and
better prepared. The material is presented more coherently and with
a better sense of the goal of each section of material. American
teachers tend to present subjects in a hurried fashion and change from
from one subject to another too abruptly.

One big difference they note is that the Asian teachers have much more
free time during each day to plan classes, grade papers, see students,
and confer with colleagues.

> Are teacher salaries comparable in the U.S. and in nations
> where students are doing well? Does this include
> pay for coaching? Are other incentives used to increase
> pay of people who teach academic subjects?

The teachers in Asia were better paid and the teaching profession was
held in a higher regard than in America.

Again, these are their thoughts. Don't flame me if you don't like them.
It's a very good book and well worth reading.

ck...@cyberg8t.com

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Dean Deters

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

> Questions:
> 1. Can someone please explain why we have such performance relative to foreign students?

There may be several reasons. One reason is that many
foreign countries only test their top students, while we
test everyone.


> 2. How many math & science teachers are giving standard tests to all their students of the same type given in foreign schools to compare the relative performance and trends of their students, and reporting the results to parents?

This is tougher to answer, since so many variables are
involved. In Japan, the schools teach students how to
pass the standardized tests, and that's about all.
Of course they get better scores when they prepare all
year for the test, but what else are they learning?
They also go to school much longer tahn U.S. students.

Apples and Oranges if you ask me. Comparing these
scores is not realistic.

Gregory Shenaut

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
: Greg,
: Thanks for your comments.
: One of them <<In some countries, algebra is offered at an earlier grade
: > level than it is in the US--it shouldn't be surprising that students at
: > that grade level outperformed US students on that test. >>
:
: Can you comment on which grades and how much earlier to same?
: And, why would U.S. schools not offer said math at an earlier grade than we
: do? Is there some advantage to the students to be later rather than sooner?
:
:
: I can certainly agree with you how difficult it is to make sense out of
: many press reports. You commented<<On tests of areas in which educational
: opportunity was equated among the nations, American students did quite
: well.>>
: If you have the data I would appreciate receiving a copy by email, so I can
: better understand the type of test, which nations, date, who administered,
: etc.

The data come from the book I cited in my original posting. It is a
library book I read and returned a couple of months ago, so I would
hesitate to cite exact details from memory. Berliner & Biddle (1995),
"The manufactured crisis: myths, fraud, and the attack on America's
public schools", ISBN 0-201-40957-7. They provide details up the
wazoo.

-Greg

David Jaeger

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Joanne Leavitt (ac...@lafn.org) wrote:
:
: Dick, I think you are very right. The only Math course my kids

: took in highschool that they could see the use for was Statistics.
: Most schools don't teach this, but it is an easy way to bring
: math into the real world. Things kids have a "real world" interest
: in like baseball stats can be used. Not to mention a link with
: Political Science courses. <g>

Was it M. Twain who said, "There are lies, damned lies, and ...
statistics" :) ?

Richard

unread,
Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to Michael Hodges

Well, Michael.

It looks like you have enough comments to write a book. Go ahead!!!!
There is obviously a lot of interest and opinions about this topic.
Sounds like a bestseller to me, and who knows, maybe it will change
education as we know it in America.

Richard NeSmith, H.S. Biology Teacher

rich...@southconn.com

"When the horse is dead, dismount!"

Robert A. Wightman

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

> Michael Hodges
>
I believe that the reason that countries like the US,
and Canada, do so poorly on these standardized tests is that:

1 We let anyone and everyone write them. Many countries only let
the cream of their students write them.

2 They have a monoculture to teach and do not have to invest the
time and money to educate students who have a diferent mother
tonque and must first be taught enough English to understant
the Mathematics and Science in English.

3 They do not create "Creative Thinkers"; they only create people
who are good at fitting into the system. How many Nobel Prizes
in Science have been won by people who were entirely educated
in Japan?

Do you want to live in a monolithic society or do you want to
live in the great melting pot (the US) or in the salad bowl (Canada)?

Personally I will take what we have and try to improve it
rather than use one of the high stress systems. Look at how many things
are still invented by the products of the inferior North Americain
Education System.

Yours;

Robert Wightman


Gregory Shenaut

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Although I do not agree with the premise of this thread, that American
schools are inferior to those of foreign nations, there is one aspect
of Americans schools which should be corrected, and there is a movement
afoot which implements one possible correction for it.

The problem is "lock-step" curriculum planning. Imagine a school which
has one or more completely specified curricula, K-12, complete with
objective, verifiable milestones which could monitor a childs' progress
through them. Children are allowed to move through the mass of
material at their own pace, and teachers provide support, either in
small groups or individually, as needed. When a child successfully
completes the course, he or she receives a high school diploma. There
are no age limits or other restrictions. Significant social privileges
depend upon completing the course. Sounds like a fantasy, but I
believe that we could achieve something like this, and what's more,
there are people who have it today.

The people who are already living in the fantasy world described above
are school-system-based homeschoolers. We associate ourselves with a
homeschool/independent study program operated by the school district,
staffed with professional teachers, with strict cost-accounting to make
sure that money is not unfairly taken from other schools in the
district. Kids work with their parents at home, or older kids work on
their own, meeting on a weekly basis with the resource teacher.
Students receive standard report cards and transcripts. There is
tremendous flexibility in curriculum, materials, and in the rate the
children progress. Truly, the fact that the implementation of such
programs seems to be a trend is one of the most encouraging things on
the horizon in American education. Just my opinion.

-Greg

--
Greg Shenaut -- gksh...@ucdavis.edu

Robert A. Wightman

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Michael Hodges

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Nov 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/11/96
to

Joyce,
You made a very good contribution to the discussion. My wife and I also
have hosted exchange students, lived abroad and I have had thousands of
foreign-trained engineers in my employ. I am a true believer in education
quality at the highest level possible. I want the best for my nation, and
as a new grandfather I am concerned.

Your comment<<Math and science teachers in some countries are more highly
trained in their respective areas. For teachers in the U.S. you get
education majors with only a few courses in math and science. My sons have
had algebra teachers who said that they had had only 3 or 4 college math
courses. One of them even admitted that she had to have her son help her
through them because she couldn't understand it.>>

I think you put your finger on one of the problems.

Another comment of yours<<In most places a
> person who has been an engineer, chemist, etc. for 30 years must start
> teaching at the same salary as a 22-year-old college grad. Plus they
would
> have to go back to college to get their education courses before they
could
> get a teaching certificate, even if they had been doing corporate
training
> courses for years. Where's the logic in that?>>

You put your finger on another key item. I agree, no logic in that - -
provided one defines logic as what's best for our students and our nation.
But, the fact there is no logic shows the real problem. The system keeps
out many of the best (especially engineers who might take a leave of
absence to teach, or retired top engineers and scientists). No way are they
going to waste their time with education courses, but no way can a science
teacher who has not been in industry motivate students by going to the
blackboard and showing them how they can build up the math to cause a
satellite to reach its objective, or how to computer model auto tests for
the best crash-resistant materials. Real applications is what it often
takes to help students understand "why math and physics".

But, if we cannot revise the system to require all math & science teachers
to have practical experience, nor allow those who have unless they also
acquire education certification, then this leads nowhere. Lacking this,
should we not find a way to force standards by exam on all teachers and all
students at every levels? And, how could that be accomplished - - or
perhaps you have another approach in mind.

Lastly. Perhaps you saw the posting in this thread of one who reported that
one reason for our low math scores is that many foreign nations require
certain math courses at a much lower grade than in the U.S. Can you
contribute to that, and if so why not have math at lower grade. Further, in
the schools in your area is there any math testing to the same exams as
used in foreign schools so parents and teachers know where they stand in
this regard?

Sincerely,
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Gerald A. de Jong

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

"Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:

>Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
>poorly compared to foreign students?

who's an expert?

BJ Chadwick

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

In article <01bbcff8$680026a0$9843...@178136520worldnet.att.net>, "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
>Well said. Many are so tired when we come home. But, we need solutions and
>we have to hear from the better teachers. Maybe we need a teacher quality
>union than has nothing to do with money, but only with quality. Some group
>must give the wake up call-or else to our society. I think it cannot be
>politicians, parents or administrators. I must come from the core: teachers
>- - and then, the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please is
>a very correct point, you made in my judgment. Thanks for it.


Sorry, but I had to jump in on this one --
It has to be politicians, parents, administrators and teachers -- It needs
everybody. One of the problems today is that everybody thinks teachers are
the ones who should solve the problem. Once our society admits that everybody
is needed -- Once any- and everyone who recognizes that there is a problem
speaks up and starts working on it -- then maybe we'll be halfway towards
finding a solution.
Part of the problem is that everybody wants to complain about the problem but
everybody wants somebody else to do something about it.

BJ Chadwick

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

In article <567hva$n...@news2.tds.net>, trm <diog...@kear.tdsnet.com> wrote:

>
>4. Finally, why do public school always seem to fare worse than private
>schools? The answer again is simple: selection. The private schools
>don't accept anyone below a certain ability; of course their averages are
>higher.
>
>
>Over to you ....
>


I agree (having taught in both private and public schools) that the answer to
the difference is selection -- but disagree about the type of selection -- it
is often not a matter of "ability" but of willingness. Also, at the private
school where I taught, parents were liable for the tuition whether students
completed the year or not. At roughly $4000 a year (this was ten years ago),
you better believe parents had some incentive to see that their little
darlings did not create problems that got them expelled from school.
Also, people are funny --- if they're paying for something they take it more
seriously.

BJ

Steve McGrew

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

In article <01bbcf92$e0dbd9e0$bb51...@178136520worldnet.att.net>, "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
>[snip] The system keeps

>out many of the best (especially engineers who might take a leave of
>absence to teach, or retired top engineers and scientists). No way are they
>going to waste their time with education courses, but no way can a science
>teacher who has not been in industry motivate students by going to the
>blackboard and showing them how they can build up the math to cause a
>satellite to reach its objective, or how to computer model auto tests for
>the best crash-resistant materials. Real applications is what it often
>takes to help students understand "why math and physics".

There *are* ways around this problem. I'm not a professional teacher, but
several times a year I do hands-on science workshops in local schools.
Evidently there are not many volunteers who do this. However, I get a great
reception from teachers, administrition and students. I'm sure that channels
could be set up in almost any school district to get engineers & scientists
from the community to come in & do the kinds of real-world stuff you are
talking about.

Recently, in response to a gap I perceived in the science curriculum in a
local school, I called up a group of professors at area colleges and invited
them to help put together a week-long science enrichment program to fill the
gap. Everyone I asked agreed to participate. The principal and science
teachers at the school are cooperating. And, another school in the area has
asked to have the program presented there as well.

It takes gumption and dedication and a willingness to work for no pay, but it
can be done.

Steve

==================================================================
| Steve McGrew, President | ste...@comtch.iea.com |
| New Light Industries, Ltd. | Phone: (509) 456-8321 |
| 9713 W. Sunset Hwy | Fax: (509) 456-8351 |
| Spokane, WA 99204 USA | http://www.iea.com/~nli |
==================================================================

Michael Hodges

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Jim,
Your posting response was most informative, and I appreciated the chance to
read it.

Your comment in response to another claiming all is OK because we get all
the Nobel prizes and Japan gets zero<< While S&S acknowledge that Americans


have many Nobel prizes and other signs of achievements, they say this is
the
result of a rather narrow stratum of high-achievers, with the large
majority of students left behind. It's somewhat similar to a
society which has gleaming cities which hide squalid ghettos where

the majority of people live.>> Seems most logical, and I presume there is
adequate data for this.

Your comment to another party claiming testing is suspect, and is measuring
apples and oranges, you said<<Actually, American kids do poorly when such
factors as mentioned are controlled >> I was a bit confused in this
exchange. Are you referring to international tests or what?

Lastly: what experience have you had with data from these international
tests? So far I have not heard from an educator with direct knowledge of
any teacher of math & science ever requiring such tests for all students
annually to at least know where they stood vs. foreigners, and reporting
results to parents.

thanks.

--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com
The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth ?:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Jim Lyons <ko...@uts.cc.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<32878B...@uts.cc.utexas.edu>...
> Chem...@clubnet.net wrote:

snip to save space


Michael Hodges

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Bj,
Your comment<<at the private
school where I taught, parents were liable for the tuition whether students

completed the year or not. At roughly $4000 a year (this was ten years
ago),
you better believe parents had some incentive to see that their little
darlings did not create problems that got them expelled from school.
Also, people are funny --- if they're paying for something they take it
more
seriously.>>

Now, that makes complete sense to me. Economic motive. The driving force,
and I think you hit on a key ingredient needed in our public schools: make
the parents pay for their kid's education, whether they send them to Japan,
or to one of our public or private schools - - their choice. But, that
brings up the political word 'vouchers', and I just kind of dislike that
word as it sounds like 'food stamps' or monopoly money. What's a way to
accomplish this 'the parent pays' and therefore the student wins because
daddy is really particular about getting his money's worth.' Share a
formula with me that can meet that goal that you believe really works.
thanks for that posting, and keep it going. We are all in this together.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Patrick Joseph Tierney

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

: Michael Hodges wrote:
: > Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
: > poorly compared to foreign students?

I'm new to this thread. But nothing on this thread that I've
seen makes any attempt to substantiate that the above statement is
even true. What non-anecdotal evidence supports the contention that
Mr. Hodges raises? If it is test scores, I'd like the specific ones,
and an opinion on why those particular tests are good measures.


P. Tierney


ck...@cyberg8t.com

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

bcha...@worldnet.att.net (BJ Chadwick) wrote:

>It has to be politicians, parents, administrators and teachers -- It needs
>everybody. One of the problems today is that everybody thinks teachers are
>the ones who should solve the problem. Once our society admits that everybody
>is needed -- Once any- and everyone who recognizes that there is a problem
>speaks up and starts working on it -- then maybe we'll be halfway towards
>finding a solution.
>Part of the problem is that everybody wants to complain about the problem but
>everybody wants somebody else to do something about it.

Amen!


Richard Alvarez

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Some fantastic math teachers...

and a school principal.


When I was a little kid in elementary school, the big kids spoke of
division, and I wanted to know what it was. I couldn't get an
explanation from the older kids, or from teachers; they just showed me
examples of long-division, with no indication of what it was or what it
was good for. Finally, the nice vice principal said something like "How
many times does 2 go into 6?" I said "3". She said "OK, that's
division.". Why couldn't somebody have explained that in the first
place? Darned if I know!

The school principal had me on the carpet for asking questions about
things like division, that I wasn't supposed to know yet. I wonder how
many other kids she turned off. I hope that they were not as
intimidated by her as I was.

Later, in that same school, I tried to find out what algebra was.
(And I suppose I landed on the principal's carpet for it.) Again, I got
lots of examples, but no explanations. Here is how that question
finally was answered:

During my high school freshman year, Miss Welch substituted in our
algebra class one day. Miss Welch called a girl to the board, and had
the girl work a problem. Then Miss Welch said "OK, she did that right.
Now *why* did she do so-and-so?". The class was horrified! "We don't
ask *why*! We do it that way because that's how we're *told* to do it."
Then it was Miss Welch's turn to be horrified. She explained "There are
*reasons* for all of this. There's *logic* behind it!" During that one
class period, math suddenly went from just an interesting subject, to a
whole new world for me. I registered for Miss Welch's plane geometry
class for my sophomore year.

During my sophomore year, Miss Mathisen substituted for Miss Welch
in our geometry class one day. Miss Mathisen was pacing around the
front of the room, quite excited, waving her hands in the air as she
talked. Suddenly she stopped in front of the board, and said "Now look
at what we have here: three new theorems!". (My response: "My gosh, we
*do*!") Miss Mathisen: "And look at what we can *do* with them!". (My
response: "My gosh, we *can*!") I registered for Miss Mathisen's
advanced algebra and trig classes for my junior year. Miss Mathisen
showed us serious *uses* for our math. Of course that delighted my
engineer's mind. Miss Mathisen was an engineer at heart. But few
ladies went into engineering when Miss Mathisen was in college.
Fortunately for us, Miss Mathisen went into teaching.

Often I passed Mr. Barker's class room. The door always was open,
and his students looked like they were *enjoying* his presentations.
So, with fear and trembling, I went into his room and introduced myself
to him. I soon saw that behind his stern-looking exterior, was a fine
gentleman and a brilliant teacher. I registered for his classes during
my senior year. He was truly outstanding.

My big regret is that maybe I was too bashful to tell those three
teachers how much I appreciated them. I hope that they realized how
much they influenced the lives of us students, and that they understood
that some of us were too immature and bashful to tell them that.

During my junior year in college, in an applied math course,
Professor Harold Wayland had a way of saying "This is what it's all
about.". He could explain quickly and well, what most text books spend
many pages beating around the bush and still not really *explaining*.

During my senior year, in an electromagnetic theory course,
Professor Robert Langmuir typically drew complicated hardware
configurations on the board, then said "It is obvious that the solution
is of the form...", and he wrote long product-solutions containing
functions whose arguments were fractions with wild arguments consisting
of constants and variables all over the place. He was such a good
teacher that it *was* obvious! Then he would say "By inspection, we see
that...", and he would insert the values of the constants and variables.

During my junior year, through no fault of Professor Wayland, my
class section missed out on Fourier series and transforms, which we
needed for Professor Langmuir's course. Professor Langmuir said "You
people don't understand Fourier series? Here, let me explain it.". In
a few minutes, he taught us more math than most math courses could teach
in two weeks. He was *good* !

Later, often I went to my thesis advisor with particular questions
about math or physics. Usually he said "This is just a special case of
the following general situation.". I left his office feeling that he
had opened a whole new section of the world to me.

In the teaching situations that I have stumbled into, I have tried
to teach like those six great people. It is both satisfying and
disappointing to have the students say "Why didn't somebody explain that
*long* ago!?!". It is satisfying because they are learning something.
It is disappointing because they could have learned it much sooner.

Dick Alvarez
alv...@best.com

ck...@cyberg8t.com

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

"Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:

>Well said. Many are so tired when we come home. But, we need solutions and
>we have to hear from the better teachers. Maybe we need a teacher quality
>union than has nothing to do with money, but only with quality. Some group
>must give the wake up call-or else to our society. I think it cannot be
>politicians, parents or administrators. I must come from the core: teachers
>- - and then, the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please is
>a very correct point, you made in my judgment. Thanks for it.

Michael,

I am very disappointed in your reply. Up to this point your messages had seemed
very supportive and interested in finding a solution. But, and maybe I am
misinterpreting your post (please tell me if I am), you seem here to be saying
to me "put up or shut up"?

It is all too easy for you to say "teachers should find and implement the
solution". IMO you are wrong, and I have explained that (I think?) extensively
in my other two posts to this thread. It's too easy to point out the problem and
expect someone else to fix it. It's real easy to complain about it, too, when
they don't get the problem fixed. And what if it is beyond their means to fix it
(alone)?

Parents and the community need to put their voices, votes, money and time where
they want it. If they come forward and show sincere interest, then perhaps the
teachers can work with them to fix the problems. Personally, I think a major
overhaul of the system is in order, including removing students who are not
interested in learning. This alone would do wonders.

Sheila King

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Jim,
I presume the book reference you made has the data to support your
statement, which also meets with my non-expert 'opinion' from international
business experience. Your posting is good, and hope you don't mind if I
repeat it so maybe a few more will read it. Thanks for that good addition
to our info pool.
<<We pity ourselves too much when we bemoan the "fact" that we send
more of our kids to school than other countries do or that we have
a more diverse student body and therefore cannot hope to match
the achievements in other countries. E. D. Hirsch and Stevenson &
Stigler put these myths pretty much to rest. The educational
systems in other industrial nations (and this also includes China,
which is more or a third-world nation) are almost always better
than ours, even when factors such as diversity are controlled for.>>

--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Angi,
Your comment<<and all the teachers that have made posts to this newsgroup

that
show their passion and desire for an *excellent* educational system.>>

I agree with the above comment in full. I am also heartened when I see so
many from the education system joining in with their experiences and also
sharing their frustration. I don't hear alibis and justifications for the
status quo. I hear genuine concern about our systems quality and the need
for some meaningful change. That's encouraging to this grandfather, as it
tells me what my instincts shouted before posting the opening message: the
key to the fix is to free up our teachers plus maybe make Daddy pay for
school so he will discipline Junior if he screws up and doesn't listen to
those teachers, less Daddy loses his tuition money and Junior gets thrown
out for a semester - - and the rest of the class can learn from that
example, and get down to some quality learning. Item: without using the
political word 'voucher' or 'food stamps' or monopoly money, how can this
happen? Got to be a way around all the special interests. My goodness, the
system is awash with money - - and the need is pressing.

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Howie,
one of your question <<Are teacher salaries comparable in the U.S. and in

nations
where students are doing well? Does this include
pay for coaching? Are other incentives used to increase
pay of people who teach academic subjects?>>

I do not have per country salary data, but I am sure you have seen DOE's
own international data (1995 Education statistics digest) showing that the
U.S. spends far more per student than any other nation, even in comparison
with countries such as Germany, Switzerland and Japan where their costs in
dollar terms has skyrocketed due to the devaluation of the dollar. I don't
know who has the highest paid teachers, but we sure spend enough money to
have the highest teacher salaries in the world - - unless we fritter such a
high % of the total away on non-teacher spending compared to others.
Perhaps some other party with the data you want will jump in here. But, as
one noted economist has reported from his studies: "There is a negative
correlation between spending and quality achievement in U.S. schools." I
may not be quoting exact, but that's the jest. In any case, it does not
seem to this observer that we are not spending enough $ in total. Question:
is it spent in the best fashion to foster dramatic quality improvement?
What do you think on that?
cheers.

William I. Johnston

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to Michael Hodges

I did a quick search of the National Center for Education Statistics
and found web sites with information about international comparisons
of student achievement in mathematics and science.

Note that some of these sites (*) caution against making
generalizations based on the different populations selected in
each country to participate in testing.

Many of the sites below rely on the 1991 data. I have listed
the publications in chronological order.


Education in States and Nations (1991):

Table of Contents
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/esn/

*Note on International Comparisons
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/esn/n000d.html

Indicator 25: Mathematics achievement
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/esn/n25a.html

*Supplemental Note on Indicator 25 <-- a lengthy discussion of sampling
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/esn/n99s19.html


1995 Digest of Education Statistics (1995):

Chapter 6 - International Comparisons
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/D95/dintro6.html


The Condition of Education (1996):

Indicator 23: International comparisons of mathematics performance
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/ce/c9623a01.html

*Supplemental Note for Indicator 23
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/ce/c9623e01.html

*Sources of Data for IAEP (1990-1991)
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/ce/c96009.html#iaep


Recent NCES Activities

Third International Math and Science Study
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/TIMSS/video/overview1.htm

Second International Assessment of Education Progress (IAEP-2)
http://www.ed.gov/NCES/pubs/ncesprograms/ies.html


Let's hope the newer results will help us address some of the questions
left by the earlier tests.

--
William I. Johnston
Watertown, MA USA
mailto:w...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/%7Ewij/

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

gerald,
You asked <<who's an expert?>In my book you qualify as an 'expert', since I
agree with your points 1 and 3. Further, you are a fellow who can say a lot
in a few words. I need some tutoring from you.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Stagnation of Family Incomes:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/family.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Gerald A. de Jong <g...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<5683cf$6...@news.xs4all.nl>...


> "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
> >poorly compared to foreign students?
>

ck...@cyberg8t.com

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

"Flame Wine" <flme...@bellsouth.net> wrote:


>Sheila,
>
> I believe you, and I back you. Thank you for caring about what you do,
>but are there *any* teachers in your school that shouldn't be there for any
>reason of which you can think?

Of course there are. I didn't adress that problem in my post, because I was
focussing on the idea that _teachers_ should be the ones who should unite and
solve the schools problems. I'm sorry, but I've heard that one before, and it
really gets me mad.

I doubt you will find a single school in the country that doesn't have teachers
who shouldn't be on staff. I think that such teachers should be warned, notified
of what their problems are, given recommendations to correct the problem, given
a chance to correct it, and when they can't or won't they should be shown the
door. But, just to be reasonable, what profession doesn't have ill-qualified
members who should be given the boot?


> I believe that the problems in our system
>are coming from all directions, teachers that don't care, students that are
>apathetic, parents that aren't sure what grade their children are in, much
>less what they are doing at school, administrators that are bean counters
>and a society that believes that schools should be mommy, daddy and baby
>sitter to their children.

I agree. The problems are coming from all directions. There are teachers who
don't care, although in my experience they are in the minority. I won't comment
on the rest of your observations except to say that I agree that these are all
significant problems that contribute to the ineffectiveness of school for many
of our students. Don't overlook the fact that for many of our students, school
is effective. It seems to me that those students (and their parents) who are
interested in their education and devote their time and efforts to it, can get a
good education in today's schools.

>
>What kind of things could parents and the rest of your community do to help
>the situation. Come on, give us some ideas no one can help if we don't
>know what you need exactly.

I don't think I have the answers to what is needed exactly. But I'll give you
some of my thoughts.

First of all, teachers caring alone won't do the trick. It has been shown time
and time again, and is supported by my own personal experience, that those kids
who do the best in school are the ones who parents are most involved. Many
schools have programs by which they try to get the parents involved. If they
invite the parents, publicize the stuff, mail out flyers and the parents still
don't come, what is the school to do then? Go out and personally capture and
bring unwilling parents to school functions and information nights to get them
involved? I don't know how to get these parents to care, but if anyone does,
that is the first thing I would work on.

Secondly, school should be a place for learning. Those students who are not
interested in learning should be removed. We should have some sort of
alternative until age 16, such as a vo-tech program or community-service/work
program or something. Students who change their minds and want to learn (or
vice-versa) should be allowed to transfer between the two programs. Student
motivation would do WONDERS for what is going on in the classroom.

You lament the poorly prepared teachers in the classroom. How will you attract
better candidates? Persuter has told us in other threads, that teaching is an
armpit of a job with lower pay than garbagemen make. Don't know if I'd go that
far, but for the sake of argument, let's say that's true. You expect highly
qualified people to choose a career like that? Teachers need more support and
good salaries. Note: In some states the salaries are quite high, but this is not
universally true across the nation. Teachers need smaller class sizes, more
preparation time when they are not in direct contact with the kids in order to
be better prepared in the classroom. All of this will cost $$$. Will the
community and the taxpayers be willing to pay?

Finally, coursework must be challenging. Students in this thread (or others)
have lamented being required to repeat coursework that they already knew. This
is a crime. Parents need to back challenging curriculum instead of complaining
that it is too hard for their kids.

All of this is stuff that teachers can support. But the school board doesn't
feel accountable to teachers, nor does the administration. Rather, the reverse
is true. The school board feels accountable to the electorate (community &
parents) and the admin feels accountable to the school board. If the community
rose up and demanded changes like these, I think you'd see a lot more results
than teachers demanding changes like these. As I've already recounted in my
previous post in this thread, admin doesn't always pay attention to what
teachers want. Teachers are only willing to go so far out on a limb before they
either decide that they want to keep their job (we need a paycheck, too, you
know) or that they are tired of fighting battles that go nowhere. So, I just do
the best I can in my classroom. After 13 years of teaching, I found I couldn't
maintain the level of frustration with all the crap going on and still stay in
this profession. I would've burned out years ago.

Moreover, these are changes that will take time and effort. For children in
school today (I have two kids in the public school myself), the best a parent
can do is be involved in their schoolwork with them. Ask to see their papers.
Review their homework nightly. Read with them often. Maintain contact with the
teacher. Etc...

Sheila King

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Your comment<<If it is test scores, I'd like the specific ones,
and an opinion on why those particular tests are good measures.>> The
prime data source were given, and is primarily DOE. I have not seen the
particular tests used for international comparisons by the DOE, but I am I
wrong in presuming that most math & science teachers are fully aware of
these tests and the content? I hope most are aware and use them, because
teachers are in a position to demand to see these tests and review and
argue the makeup if they want. Aren't they? I hope so. And, why would not
most schools and their boards get hold of these tests and administer them
to all their students to provide the results and trends for the teachers,
as well as reporting results to parents. While they may want to argue
content this way or that with DOE, at least I would hope all would know
about the tests and regularly administer them - - and keep good data per
school on the comparative results & trends. But, perhaps this is not being
done. Do you know the answer here? Do the teachers have these tests and are
they on their own administering and publishing the findings? Or are schools
arguing with DOE over content?

I would like to know.

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Richard,
I am encouraged that so many teachers like you have contributed so fully.
Your comment<it looks like you have enough comments to write a book. Go

ahead!!!! There is obviously a lot of interest and opinions about this
topic.
Sounds like a bestseller to me, and who knows, maybe it will change
education as we know it in America.>>

Richard - unfortunately I am not a book writer, but with this material I
wish I were. From this exchange I have gained a lot of respect for the many
teachers who have expressed their views - so openly and with concern for
what many sense is a negative direction - - and, doing so without trying to
justify the status quo, but trying really hard to put forth the definition
of the problem. My sense is that, although there are many great teachers
out there, I would suspect that those taking the time and interest to
participate in these discussions represents some of the most dedicated &
knowledgeable - - and, concerned.

But, back to your book point. I will try to find the time to make a summary
of all postings, as there is too much effort by so many to let it disappear
from the server. I'll bet you have read every entry. May I therefore ask if
you, from these postings, make a summary of the main points that your find
most consistent and worthwhile - - first as to problem definition, and then
as to the range of possible solutions. If you would email that to me, then
I will get my own together with yours and come back to you.

Thanks, and it was really neat to get to meet you and many other good
teachers. But you said <<maybe it will change education as we know it in
America>> I doubt that any small group of teachers, parents and
grandparents here can cause any change for the better. But, maybe - - just
maybe - - if we keep at the exploration and info exchange we can feel we
are doing our best to at least try and make a small difference. Our young
people and our best teachers deserve our best effort. Agree. Let me hear
from you.

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

Richard,
That was an excellent story, told very well. You made your point clearly. I
have my higher education in physics, the original motivation and training
for which came from my high school math teacher - - a very smart and
dedicated man, with his own master's degree in math. He planned each of his
Saturday mornings to spend 1 hour with certain students - - at their home.
His selection criteria was unknown to me, but evidently he had decided that
outside of his job, on his own time, he wanted to make a difference to
certain students that he felt could be motivated to go after math &
science. I learned to love this man, and respect him nearly as a father. At
his encouragement most of us had completed trig & solid geometry between
10th and 11the grades, and then attended his own after-hours calculus class
as seniors. Needless to say, SAT scoring in math was a breeze, and many
students were real winners - - most moving on to advanced education and
careers in those areas. We were lucky he was there, and so proud to see him
in the audience watching us receive our university diplomas - - no matter
where in the country we were graduating. At the funeral for this
wonder-teacher-person (killed accidentally by a friend's handgun), every
single one of these Saturday students for some 6 years was there - - with
tears for the loss of Mr. Snodgrass. To this day, I still recall his words
of encouragement - - "set your goal, take all the math & science you can --
and you will be prepared for whatever you later choose - - but, work hard
and study long - - and, never stop learning."

Let me close with a passage copied from the 1995 digest of education
statistics, which shows a troubling sign of U.S. on bottom of the list of
international math graduates - - which means there are not enough Mr.
Snodgrass' about these days:
<<Countries have been paying more attention lately to the percent of
graduates in the math and science fields. For undergraduate degrees awarded
in science, math and computer science, and engineering, most OECD countries
report rates from 15 to 34 percent. Finland, Belgium, and Germany all are
over 30 percent, while Spain and Canada are closer to 15 percent. Graduate
degrees in math and science show Japan far in front with 54.2 percent,
followed by Austria (37.4) and Germany (33.9). The U.S. ranks last in this
category with 13.8, just below Australia (13.9).>>

Sorry to take up space with my own story - - but yours motivated me to do
so. Thanks.
--

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to

William,
Thanks for posting your search results. I made a copy.
Your comment<<Let's hope the newer results will help us address some of the
questions left by the earlier tests.>> I share your hope.

I was interested in the following about undergraduate degrees in math, etc
from one of your references, which I had seen before in the 1995 Education
Statistics Digest:


"Countries have been paying more attention lately to the percent of
graduates in the math and science fields. For undergraduate degrees awarded
in science, math and computer science, and engineering, most OECD countries
report rates from 15 to 34 percent. Finland, Belgium, and Germany all are
over 30 percent, while Spain and Canada are closer to 15 percent. Graduate
degrees in math and science show Japan far in front with 54.2 percent,
followed by Austria (37.4) and Germany (33.9). The U.S. ranks last in this
category with 13.8, just below Australia (13.9)."

I was surprised at the U.S. rank: last. Do you think we could presume that
the U.S. rates also include the many foreign students graduating from here
in these categories (and without them our rate might actually be lower for
U.S. citizens), and that many may return to their homeland with the skills
after graduation? (The data shows over 400,000 foreign college students,
although not how many are majoring in this category.)

thanks again for your list.

Michael Ames Connor

unread,
Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96
to William I. Johnston, Michael Hodges

First, W. Johnston is on the right track: I have heard the assertion,
authoritatively stated, that the gap between our kids and others is a
myth. What we really see is that other countries test only top-level
kids; or other kids require more math and science from their kids -- our
kids do very well against equally educated kids from anywhere.

Third, there's a bit of jingoism that can be reinforced by this post,
which is unintentional. Wouldn't it make sense for, at least in some way,
regions of the world to emphasize different areas of studies? I realize
we're mostly concerned that many U.S. kids get an inferior education
(inferior to other U.S. kids, inferior to other countries'); but I can
imagine differences that would not be cause for hand-wringing.

Anyway, if anyone has data to prove or disprove the "fundamentally equal"
assertion, I'd like to see it.

Best to all,

Michael Ames Connor//mco...@reed.edu
member, Portland Association of Teachers

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Michael,
Thanks for your input. This has been a lively group of inputs, with a good
exchange between teachers and parents. The data sources for the original
posting were included with that posting. Some other sources are on page 2
of the web site on education listed below put together as a sort of summary
of findings by a couple of grandfathers. But there are tons of info in many
places. The Education Digest 95 is a wealth of knowledge, as are various
reports by DOE, the UN, Cato Institute and other studies. I presume there
has been some kind of study even to the detail of the type of desks, etc.

Different people may come to different conclusions from different data, but
I think it is very useful that as many as possible state their opinions and
at the same time give the data and source backing it up, so that others can
read the data and form their own opinion - - and then choose to agree or
disagree with the author from the same data plus present their own data &
sources. Rhetoric alone is dangerous

Your comment<<if anyone has data to prove or disprove the "fundamentally
equal"
assertion, I'd like to see it>>In your position you must have a lot of good
data to offer in this regard.

Now, as far as how are we doing vs. foreign nations, we have the data
sources mentioned - - primarily in math & science. I have noted there is
also data on history, etc. but have not looked at that. From first hand
experience as an international employer, and from experience with exchange
students, I can tell you this has raised much concern in my own mind
concerning our relative quality - - but I did not want to generalize my own
experience, and therefore looked for data as discussed.

Let me ask you a question, and I hope you will respond to it:
have you proposed to your own school boards, or would you propose, that
they be required to get hold of the exams used by DOE in their
international comparison tests (as well as get hold of exams from say the
German and Japanese school system) for math & science for different age
groups - - and, that your schools be required to administer said exams for
all your students of same age - - and report the results to the parents and
others - - so that at least you and local teachers (and parents) would know
where they stand and their trends in this regard?? If you had those results
you would then be able to answer the question at least as far as your
schools in Portland, and could share the findings with some of us.

Many studies have been published showing that Germany, Japan, France, etc.
require more than double the classroom hours in math & science, and a
significantly higher percentage of students are required to take advanced
examinations than ours. Even if they start with same IQ mix, it would stand
to reason that their approach must produce better education in those
disciplines. As can be seen from much data in the 1995 Digest, the
Europeans (and Japan, and others) are producing significantly higher
percent university graduates in those disciplines than the U.S. and even
higher in graduate diplomas. (and, our own percentages are possibly
inflated by foreign students here who will later return to their homeland).
This tells me that they are much more focused preparing for technological
challenges in the future than perhaps here at home. This alone does not
concern me, but coupled with so much other data and first hand experience
it does. They are becoming better prepared for tomorrow's technology in
research and engineering, and the best prepared hold a lot of cards
concerning the location of future jobs and the generation of standards of
living, which other professionals tell me also have national security
implications downstream.

Again, if you would get the DOE tests AND the German school math & science
tests and administer to all your students you might be surprised with the
result - - but you will not know where your students stand in this regard
(and therefore how you might help them) until you do. I'm sure your
students and parents would like to know.

What would be the downside of comparing your own students and letting their
parents know the result? Would you let me know what you think concerning
administering those exams?
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Michael Ames Connor wrote in article

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Greg,
your comment<<Although I do not agree with the premise of this thread, that
American schools are inferior to those of foreign nations - - >>

Do you have data to dispute the international data from the many sources
(DOE, Cato Institute, etc.) to backup your position. You may be correct,
but I would like to see your hard data evidence with sources - - as we all
want to learn.

Further, in your own local schools have you (or others proposed) that all
students take the same exams as used by the international assessment
reported by DOE (as well as take the same exams for each age group as now
administered in German & Japanese schools) for math & science, so that you
and all parents truly know where you stand, and also track trends of
gaining or trailing? If you did, you would have some data that you could
really use for the good of your own students. There certainly cannot be any
downside for your parents to know where their kids stand in this regard. Or
is there? So far I have not heard of a single school system doing this and
until they do their teachers and boards are 'flying in the dark' regarding
knowing where they themselves stand against foreign competition, as if they
could care less that we are in a global economy, becoming more so each day,
and DOE data shows much of that competition is graduating math, science and
engineering undergraduate and graduate students at many multiples of U.S. -
- and, probably many in the U.S. figures are actually foreign students who
will later return to their homelands.


I hope you will write me back and tell me yes we have given each of those
exams to each age group, and here's the data. Or, we plan to do it.

ck...@cyberg8t.com

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

"Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:

>Greg,
<snipped>


>Further, in your own local schools have you (or others proposed) that all
>students take the same exams as used by the international assessment
>reported by DOE (as well as take the same exams for each age group as now
>administered in German & Japanese schools) for math & science, so that you
>and all parents truly know where you stand, and also track trends of
>gaining or trailing? If you did, you would have some data that you could
>really use for the good of your own students. There certainly cannot be any
>downside for your parents to know where their kids stand in this regard. Or
>is there? So far I have not heard of a single school system doing this and
>until they do their teachers and boards are 'flying in the dark' regarding
>knowing where they themselves stand against foreign competition,

Michael,

While the idea of giving the same exams to our own students in our own schools
to compare them internationally may sound initially like a good idea, I don't
really think it is necessary. Besides, I'm not sure that the exams are available
to schools in the same way the the Iowa Test of Basic Skills or the Stanford
Achievment Tests are (if I'm wrong, I hope someone will correct me).

I don't believe this to be necessary. What should be done is to determine the
curriculum and standards of achievement to which we should hold our students
accountable, and all teachers should cover that material at that difficulty
level. Every few years a sample of sufficient size, which probably doesn't
include every student in every school district, could take the exam (which is
probably what the DOE does anyway, although I'm not sure that they use enough
students from each state or locality to really tell how individual areas or
school districts are doing) and from this sample we could rate our students
against the other countries. (All students in the other countries are not taking
these exams, either.)

Sheila King

Gregory Shenaut

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
: Greg,

: your comment<<Although I do not agree with the premise of this thread, that
: American schools are inferior to those of foreign nations - - >>
:
: Do you have data to dispute the international data from the many sources
: (DOE, Cato Institute, etc.) to backup your position. You may be correct,
: but I would like to see your hard data evidence with sources - - as we all
: want to learn.

For the third time: I am basing my assertion upon a certain book,
which I have already cited twice in this thread. There is substantial
detail given in the book, but since it is a library book which I read
two months ago, I cannot easily reproduce it here. The book is
probably in a library near you. Here is the reference again: David C.
Berliner & Bruce J. Biddle (1995), "The manufactured crisis: myths,
fraud, and the attack on America's public schools" ISBN 0-201-40957-7.

I am not an expert on public education, but since I started
homeschooling my daughters last year I have been trying to do some
reading on its history and current trends. Please, if, as you say, you
really want to see the data and learn, read the book--I really do
believe that it responds fully to many of your doubts about American
public schools. BTW, it is not some sort of apologia--it also
describes several real problems and makes suggestions for improvement.

--
Greg Shenaut -- gksh...@ucdavis.edu

Herman Rubin

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

In article <568fu6$8...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,

BJ Chadwick <bcha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>In article <567hva$n...@news2.tds.net>, trm <diog...@kear.tdsnet.com> wrote:


>>4. Finally, why do public school always seem to fare worse than private
>>schools? The answer again is simple: selection. The private schools
>>don't accept anyone below a certain ability; of course their averages are
>>higher.


>>Over to you ....

>I agree (having taught in both private and public schools) that the answer to
>the difference is selection -- but disagree about the type of selection -- it

>is often not a matter of "ability" but of willingness. Also, at the private

>school where I taught, parents were liable for the tuition whether students
>completed the year or not. At roughly $4000 a year (this was ten years ago),
>you better believe parents had some incentive to see that their little
>darlings did not create problems that got them expelled from school.
>Also, people are funny --- if they're paying for something they take it more
>seriously.

If we had a DECENT school system, selection at the school level would
be totally irrelevant. The quality of the education available to a given
child should not depend on the abilities of the other children.

Now this can be achieved in two ways. The one favored by those who
refuse to accept that people have vastly different abilities is to
lower the better ones. The other way is to recognize that children
of the same age in a given school should have the opportunity to be
"all that they can be". This means that the ones who can should be
allowed and even encouraged to progress much faster and at a much
higher level.

--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558

Herman Rubin

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

In article <568rut$j...@nntp1.best.com>,
Richard Alvarez <alv...@nntp.best.com> wrote:

I am leaving in the entire article, but placing it at the end.
What is different about the teachers and administrators praised
and those who are not is not that they taught lots of details,
but that they presented the concepts. Mr. Alvarez then was able
to fill in at least many of the details. Those who merely told
him the details, like the kids who showed him how to do long
division, may or may not have understood the concepts involved.
And the principal who objected to children asking questions is
a good example of the far too numerous people in education who
are a major liability to ever doing anything about it.

Professor Langmuir did not teach that much more mathematics in
a short time, but he presented the CONCEPT of Fourier series.
One can build up on the concepts; doing the other way is the
hard one.

Mr. Alvarez also points out how his thesis advisor clarified things
by pointing out that it was a special case; the general situation,
not having so much special properties, is usually easier to grasp.

Quoting the last paragraph,

* In the teaching situations that I have stumbled into, I have tried
*to teach like those six great people. It is both satisfying and
*disappointing to have the students say "Why didn't somebody explain that
**long* ago!?!". It is satisfying because they are learning something.
*It is disappointing because they could have learned it much sooner.

This is a large part of the problem; we are not even teaching the
concepts as well as was done in the past. And Miss Welch's horrors
are legion at the college level; students are continually saying,
"Don't give me the THEORY; just tell me how to do the problems."

>Some fantastic math teachers...

>and a school principal.

> Dick Alvarez
> alv...@best.com


Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Sheila,
Your points were good. If these tests are administered periodically in such
a way that both teachers and parents receive the feedback, added knowledge
of where ones students stand would be available. Can't be any downside in
that. Do you think you will see your idea happen in your area?
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

Ankit Desai

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

On 11 Nov 1996 05:46:17 GMT, ronald...@access.texas.gov (Persuter)
wrote:

>In other countries, the privilege of education is afforded only to the best
>and the brightest.
That is not true, in other countries families have to pay for
their children's education. If the child is doing well, then they
will make him go to school. If the child is not doing well then they
will take him out or if they have enough money then will still make
him go to school. The main thing is that when one goes to school he
is disciplined there also. That is one thing that is not done to
students in American school system. Discipline is not taught or
practiced in the schools here.

>Here in the USA, we teach every last man jack at
>least to the tenth grade level, something most other countries can't boast.

What is the difference if we have students going to school and
not learning than if we don't have them go to school at all. Maybe we
should do this and them we would have students who want to learn get
more attention.
At my school, I see a lot of kids who don't want to learn, come
to school and then just cut classes. The school then gives them a
detention as a disciplinary action. Is that supposed to discipline
the kid, I don't think so.

- Ankit an...@ix.netcom.com

Ankit Desai

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

On 11 Nov 1996 06:16:15 GMT, "Flame Wine" <flme...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>Michael,
>
> I am sure everyone is getting tired of this non-expert giving her
>opinions, but I felt that I must mention two other things that I have not
>seen mentioned in this thread.
>
>One of the greatest causes of students not living up to their potential is
>other students. I'm not sure why this is the case, but students that do
>well in school are constantly ridiculed and abused (sometimes to the point
>of physical harm) by their classmates. Some teachers grade on a curve, and
>of course, the student that excels and actually gets an A on a test ruins
>the curve for the other students. I am sure that is a factor, but a lot of
>this abuse occurs in grade school. When I was in grade school, our
>teachers graded us merely on the numbers. I did not even know that a curve
>system existed until Jr. high. Is there any information on why achievement
>is so abhored by students? Students are expected by other students to say
>they hate school, hate going to class, hate doing homework and if they
>don't are labeled *freaks*.I loved school, I couldn't get enough of it, but
>when others started bellyaching about how terrible it was to have to go to
>school and class I didn't dare challenge them. I would have been a social
>outcast.
>
>The other problem is test anxiety and the lack of knowledge of how to take
>a test. I had no idea this problem existed for a long time. I took tests
>and enjoyed them. Many years later, I talked to people who told me of
>their problems in taking tests, I was amazed! I had discovered tricks and
>shortcuts that helped me score higher on tests than other people with the
>same amount of knowledge. I do think that students should be taught from a
>very early age how to take tests and the timesavers that can be used on
>them. The tricks I used were not in any way cheating, but I believe they
>got me higher scores. For example, when I took tests like the California
>Achievement test, or any other timed test that required filling out a sheet
>with "bubbles," I went through and merely marked each answer with a dash,
>and when the teacher took up the booklets and told us to make sure that
>each bubble was filled in completely, I went back and filled the bubbles
>in. Other students followed the directions to the letter, and as they
>chose each answer, filled in the bubble. This allowed me to answer many
>more questions in the allotted time than other students, but shows nothing
>of my level of learning, reading comprehension, etc. I do honestly believe
>that if we taught our students how to take tests, the scores would go up.
>
>(More from the soapbox later) <smile>
>
>-Angie

I couldn't agree with your comments any more. You are so right on the
fact that if we like school then we are subject to harm from other
students and if we good and mess uo the curve, then they want to harm
you also. This actually happened to me earlier this year. I was in
my AP Physics class and we were to take a test the next day. Somehow,
I found out that 80% of the students had found out the questions to
the tests and had the answers to the test. I had the answers also,
but I couldn't use it because my mind wouldn't let me do it. The next
day when the teacher gave back the tests, I found out that one of the
smartest kid in the class who didn't have the answers got lower than
the dumbest girl in the class. I told my teacher about the answers to
the test and somehow others found out about what I had done and now
most of them won't even talk to me. Is there no such thing as honesty
today?

- Ankit an...@ix.netcom.com

BJ Chadwick

unread,
Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96
to

Herman, no argument -- but I wasn't talking about selection by ability level
-- my private school had its share of kids struggling to make it academically.
What it didn't have were kids who were interfering with the education of
others through their behavior and attitudes.

BJ

Patrick Joseph Tierney

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

Michael Hodges (mwho...@msn.com) wrote:
: Greg,
: your comment<<Although I do not agree with the premise of this thread, that
: American schools are inferior to those of foreign nations - - >>
:
: Do you have data to dispute the international data from the many sources
: (DOE, Cato Institute, etc.) to backup your position. You may be correct,
: but I would like to see your hard data evidence with sources - - as we all
: want to learn.

Another person already cited Chapter Two of Berliner and Biddle's
_The Manufactured Crisis_. In this section, NAEP scores, and IEA data,
show comparable or better US scores to Japan when all else is equal.
Also, the "decline" in US ed. was disproven by a series of test
scores, including the above ones, PSAT, GRE, GMAT, and others, which
show a stabalization of scores over the last 30 years.

Other scores show that when States are compared to other
countries, most of our states fare well. This may be more realistic,
as many of our states are larger than most of the countries that we are
being compared to. Further, since education is local instead of
national, one cannot put all of the nation's students in the same
basket. Too many different policies are out there.

As for myself, I do not "dispute" the DOE and Cato data.
On the other hand, I don't accept it since I have not seen it
justified. And, I've read of several international tests that use
a series of one-note questions as their "proof" that we are in
such woeful shape. So, I'd need support for these tests. And
if you'd like my support for the tests that I cited, check out
_The Manufactured Crisis_.


P. Tierney


Michael Hodges

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

Greg,
I got your Biddle book message the first time, and am trying to find a
copy. The ISBN number you now gave might help. Thanks. Still, I would hope
teachers would also get hold of those darn DOE international exams to know
what they are, and test their own students and tell all of us. Nothing
better than real data at the local level, as compared to book A vs. B, or
DOE table 1 vs. 2, etc.

You say you are homeschooling your daughters while reading all you can.
Lucky them. My son is considering that for his daughter next year. If you
have a chance would like to hear any main points form your homeschool
learning curve I can pass on. Thanks.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

Gregory Shenaut <fzsh...@dale.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

Patrick,
thanks for the input. I will try and find the book, although I was hoping
to learn of real world exam results from some teachers or administrators.

Your comment<<I'd need support for these tests>> is understandable. But, do
you need support to get hold of the exams, as well as typicals from say
Germany, and see for yourself? Until you get hold of those tests to see
what you think, and have local students take them - - how can you and I
ever know? It is standard practice in business to always test products of
competitors, both domestic and foreign - - so that one really knows the
facts, instead of being spoon-fed info by others which only raises
questions, doubts, and often inaction - - and, can lead to gross failure
long term. I certainly have no idea how good the DOE international exams
are, but darn it if they put out that data then school leaders should get
hold of those tests so they are armed one way or the other. I am simply
reading the data and putting it out and asking questions - - hoping that
sure-thing answers would be forthcoming. They have not. Can you try and get
hold of those exams and evaluate them? Also, can you get hold of some
typical exams for different age groups on math & science administered in
say German schools for same purpose - or do you know someone who has?

Thanks for pushing the envelope for information.

--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com


Gerald A. de Jong

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

"Flame Wine" <flme...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Gerald A. de Jong <g...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article

>> i think:
>>
>> * north america is much more a culture of distraction
>> (lots of tv, fragmented superficial shows, blast advertisements).
>>
>> * educators are probably not as refined and developed, and
>> perhaps less serious about their role.
>>
>> * in many other places, there's a different sense of discipline.

>Gerald,
>I have to agree with you that America is more a culture of distraction than
>other countries listed here..
>If it is granted that North America is more a culture of distraction, how
>*exactly* is that affecting the quality of our education?

perhaps it's less an issue of quality of education and more a question
of ability to utilize the education that's provided.

>If it is granted that in many other places there is a different sense of
>discipline. A sense of discipline is going to vary from country to
>country, does this mean that the sense of discipline in North America is
>not a good as it is in other countries?

europeans seem more intent upon learning, but that's just a general
impression i have and i can't really defend it. (by the way, i was
born and raised in Ontario, and now live in Holland).

> If so, how does that affect the
>education North American students receive? What changes should be made to
>correct it?

i don't know. these things have deep cultural roots. people have to
learn to ignore their TVs and other flash media. it may take a
century or two. chances are, rather, that the other cultures will be
assimilated (we are the Borg, resistance is futile) by the seductive
american-style distraction machinery.

>Now, I had to save it for last because I was afraid you might not read any
>further once you saw my response to your second statement. What do you
>mean, my dear sir, when you say that 'educators are probably not as refined
>and developed, and perhaps less serious about their role'? Perhaps you
>could clarify that before I blast you in defense of all the caring
>dedicated teachers...

heh heh.. no reason to panic. a statement like mine is speaking about
averages and not of individuals. if it were possible (not that it is)
to rank all educators on a quality scale, there will be a great
overlap between the different countries. there are many many north
american teachers who deserve great praise for their way of doing
things. i just remember having a good number of really weak and
disinterested teachers, and my guess is that that's less common in
places like europe.

>Please, respond to this, I am sure that some of your points are valid, yet
>it would be difficult for me to accept any of your comments if I have not
>misread your statement.

there's no need to be defensive at all. each of us are responsible
for our own activities, and i make no judgement of individuals (except
for some of the teachers i had).


Gerald A. de Jong

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

"Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:

>Jim,
>Your comment in response to another claiming all is OK because we get all
>the Nobel prizes and Japan gets zero<< While S&S acknowledge that Americans
>have many Nobel prizes and other signs of achievements, they say this is
>the result of a rather narrow stratum of high-achievers, with the large
>majority of students left behind.

you also have to wonder why such a high proportion of professors at
universities are of foreign origin.


Frank Warner

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

>Michael Hodges wrote:
>>
>> Can some expert please explain to me why our students are performing so
>> poorly compared to foreign students?

For 30 years, America has failed to nurture the spirit of invention
that made the United States first in so many fields.

To too many American students, developing a machine that might save
energy or a medicine that might save lives is the dull guy's life.
It's too hard and certainly not cool. No wonder we have the largest
trade deficit in our history, and debt everywhere else.

Today, more of America's "top" students are going on to law school,
where they train for careers that are likely to produce nothing we
need.


Frank Warner

Powell Jay

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

Dear Sheila,

Your points are well taken. The tests results must be "representative" of
comparable populations to have any comparisons meaningful. They must also
be in the "idiom" of the test takers as well.


We would be far better off to assess the _content independent_ skills and
to compare them.

This goal can be achieved if we look at the reasoning behind the answers
instead of the answers themselves.

Jay Powell

Michael Hodges

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to

Robert,
your comment<<Personally I will take what we have and try to improve it>>
Interested in learning of top items you would select for improving and how
to measure the result. As to your comment about Nobel prize winners, you
might like to review several postings by others in the thread who evidently
have studied that subject.

--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm
An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Robert A. Wightman <wigh...@interlog.com> wrote in article

Michael Ames Connor

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96
to Michael Hodges

Michael Hodges operates under assumptions (near as I can tell) that I
question:

I question the idea that we should do more testing as a solution to
anything. The data, as I understand it, shows that American kids do just
fine against any kids who have received comparable instruction. That is,
American (sic) kids who have taken calculus, compared to other kids who
have taken calculus, do well.

More testing won't do anything. What we need to fight for is higher
standards, smaller classes, more resources into public schools,
dramatically lower child poverty and malnutrition rates. These are
directly related to U.S. kids not achieving what they are capable of; more
tests don't really accomplish anything except fuel the testing industry.

Second, this idea of "international competition" is odd to me. U.S.
workers are the most productive in the world. The "competition" you speak
of ("Jonny, study harder otherwise you might not get a job") is fairly
ludicrous. It amounts to blaming the victim. Large firms are in fact
scouring the planet for cheap wages, lax environmental conditions, etc,
but the idea that schools should do better to prepare students for work is
non-responsive to real changes in the economy.

Which of the following jobs, for instance, could Jane *not* get after
finishing high school in the U.S.? (These are the fastest growing jobs in
the U.S.)

the 30 occupations with the greatest projected growth, 19942005

cashiers 7 janitors and cleaners 7 salespersons, retail 7 waiters and
waitresses 7 registered nurses 7 general managers and top executives 7
systems analysts 7 home health aides 7 guards 7 nursing aides,
orderlies, attendants 7 teachers, secondary school 7 marketing and
sales worker supervisors 7 teacher aides and educational assistants 7
receptionists and information clerks 7 truck-drivers 7 secretaries,
except legal and medical 7 clerical supervisors and managers 7 child
care workers 7 maintenance repairers, general utility 7 teachers,
elementary 7 personal and home care aides 7 teachers, special ed 7
licensed practical nurses 7 food service and lodging managers 7 food
preparation workers 7 social workers 7 lawyers 7 financial managers 7
computer engineers 7 hand packers and packagers

source: Monthly Labor Review, November 1995

I count ten which require post-high school work, three which may (the
managerial ones); my count may be slightly different from yours. However,
I am not struck with the idea that "international competition" has much to
do with more than a few of these, and in fact has little to do with the
vast majority.

I interpret many of the calls for more math and science as calls for
schools to do the jobs of employers for them, particularly those that
reference some vague "international competition" and attendant threat to
the living standards of U.S. kids. Looking at this list of jobs, we might
do well to require not more testing, since we know that U.S. schools do
well in *direct* (the technical term is norm-referenced) comparisons, but
in labor history, community organizing, and collective action -- the
education that could prepare kids for the real struggles they'll have
trying to win decent wages from their employers.


Michael Ames Connor//mco...@reed.edu
member, Portland Association of Teachers

On 13 Nov 1996, Michael Hodges wrote:

> Greg,
> your comment<<Although I do not agree with the premise of this thread, that
> American schools are inferior to those of foreign nations - - >>
>
> Do you have data to dispute the international data from the many sources
> (DOE, Cato Institute, etc.) to backup your position. You may be correct,
> but I would like to see your hard data evidence with sources - - as we all
> want to learn.
>

> Further, in your own local schools have you (or others proposed) that all
> students take the same exams as used by the international assessment
> reported by DOE (as well as take the same exams for each age group as now
> administered in German & Japanese schools) for math & science, so that you
> and all parents truly know where you stand, and also track trends of
> gaining or trailing? If you did, you would have some data that you could
> really use for the good of your own students. There certainly cannot be any
> downside for your parents to know where their kids stand in this regard. Or
> is there? So far I have not heard of a single school system doing this and
> until they do their teachers and boards are 'flying in the dark' regarding

> knowing where they themselves stand against foreign competition, as if they
> could care less that we are in a global economy, becoming more so each day,
> and DOE data shows much of that competition is graduating math, science and
> engineering undergraduate and graduate students at many multiples of U.S. -
> - and, probably many in the U.S. figures are actually foreign students who
> will later return to their homelands.
>
>
> I hope you will write me back and tell me yes we have given each of those
> exams to each age group, and here's the data. Or, we plan to do it.

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

Dean,
your comment<<There may be several reasons. One reason is that many
foreign countries only test their top students, while we test everyone>> We
are speaking primarily about our performance relative to the strong
economic nations of Europe and Japan. According to the April 1996 report of
USN&WR they required more than half of their students to take advanced
exams in math & science, while we require but 6.6%. And, because of their
education quality fully 33% pass those tests, while only 4.4% of our small
(6.6%) pass. You can do the math, which shows for every 1,000 students in
Germany, Japan, France 165 pass these advanced exams vs. 3 students passing
here. Maybe their report is wrong, but I have not seen any challenge to its
findings, and same tracks the international results that DOE published. If
you have, I would appreciate seeing it.

Bottom line: we can answer this point easily. Do the schools in your area
require 100% advanced math & science exams for different age groups
according to both the international tests used by DOE in their own reports
and to the same quality of exams as used in say Germany - - with results
to each student and parent and the school board so ALL know where they
stand vs. the best foreign competition has to offer? If the answer is
negative, then I think we are shortchanging our students and their future -
- as they are the ones who must compete in the accelerating global economy,
even more than has our generation with its massive trade deficits.

Can we find a way to assure that they are even more prepared for that than
any student in the world, as a legacy of which every American would be
proud? I'm sure we both hope so.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Stagnation of Family Incomes:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/family.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Dean Deters <dlde...@mail.cdsnet.net> wrote in article
<328798...@mail.cdsnet.net>...
> > Questions:
> > 1. Can someone please explain why we have such performance relative to
foreign students?
>
> There may be several reasons. One reason is that many
> foreign countries only test their top students, while we
> test everyone.
>
>
> > 2. How many math & science teachers are giving standard tests to all
their students of the same type given in foreign schools to compare the
relative performance and trends of their students, and reporting the
results to parents?
>
> This is tougher to answer, since so many variables are
> involved. In Japan, the schools teach students how to
> pass the standardized tests, and that's about all.
> Of course they get better scores when they prepare all
> year for the test, but what else are they learning?
> They also go to school much longer tahn U.S. students.
>
> Apples and Oranges if you ask me. Comparing these
> scores is not realistic.
>

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

Powell,
Your comment<<goal can be achieved if we look at the reasoning behind the
answers instead of the answers themselves>> Maybe its just a word, but
would I be correctly understanding your point if I substituted 'concepts'
for your word 'reasoning' for the math & science exams? If so agree with
you. I would still hope we would subtract for wrong answers, as care and
quality is also important and the ends do matter. But, the key is can they
prove they fully know the concept, or process - - and, that I'll bet is a
toughie to organize in an exam given to a lot of students, right or wrong?
But, we should try. In my days a zillion years ago, one had to get the
right answer, but also it was required that attached worksheets showed the
complete build-up from zero to that answer - - for example the development
of the formula, not just the formula itself. If you left off that build-up
sheet you got a fat zero. Of course in those days we did not have computer
scoring, and someone with knowledge had to read each and every exam to
evaluate that build-up sheet for example. Takes manpower - knowledgeable
man/woman power.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

Gerald,
Your comment<<you also have to wonder why such a high proportion of

professors at universities are of foreign origin.>>
Wow! That's powerfully informative. Thanks for the input. I didn't realize
that, but now that I think about it I also heard that somewhere...but
don't recall. If you happen to recall a reporting source I would sure like
to see it, when you have a chance by email.
Thanks, Gerald.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Stagnation of Family Incomes:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/family.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

Gerald A. de Jong <g...@xs4all.nl> wrote in article
<56ehmv$p...@news.xs4all.nl>...

Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

Hi, Jul - - this news string is getting so long I almost missed your
informative posting. You made some very good points.
Let me repeat a couple:
> American culture places little value on academic learning. This
> shows in the general resentment about studying such "useless" things
> as literature, biology, etc. To be somebody, you better know how to
> sing a song or throw a football.
> American teachers are often underqualified and unsupported. Foreign
> teachers' colleges tend to be harder to get into. Most foreign
> teachers couldn't work without the equivalent of a master's degree.
> Many countries require a year or more of internship. Once in the
> profession, all most American teachers get from the central office is
> more mandates, more forms to fill out, and more demands to save face
> and jobs downtown. There is very little accountability for what
> teachers do-- or don't do-- in the classroom.
> Many American students and parents don't like to get involved or
> take responsibility for the student's progress in school >>>>

Would I be out of order by asking if you would tell me some more about the
following, and how you came to know this - - are you speaking as a teacher,
parent, ?

1. about those law suits
2. Most foreign teachers couldn't work without the equivalent of a master's
degree. Many countries require a year or more of internship

I would like to explore that some more, and if you can assist with further
input that would be great. Sending a copy by email would help make sure I
don't miss it.
Thanks
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

jul <jul...@dibbs.net> wrote in article <565j7t$b...@tofu.alt.net>...


Michael Hodges

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

Hi Sheila,
I also send you this by email to be sure you see it (as I almost missed
your post because there are so many - - which of course is good), and ask
if you respond please do the same - -
Your comment <<I am very disappointed in your reply. Up to this point your
messages had seemed very supportive and interested in finding a solution.
But, and maybe I am misinterpreting your post (please tell me if I am), you
seem here to be saying to me "put up or shut up"?>> Thanks for calling me
to the carpet, or woodshed, Sheila - - because I sure must have used a poor
phrase in that last post. I guess there is a danger in any of us posting
stuff that gets miss-worded, or how the readers reads that day can blow a
whole string of the best of intentions of all to plainly share information
and together search for common ground and solutions. Please believe me when
I say I remain committed to that goal. I re-read my statement that you were
commenting on and it was <<must come from the core: teachers - - and then,
the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please is a very
correct point>> I meant we need solutions recommended. You just recommended
a very important one, which I will cover.

No way would I ever say to a teacher 'put up or shut up'. My background
from the old, old days was nothing but the highest of respect for nearly
every one of my public HS teachers - - that lucky past assures that I hold
the profession in high regard, because it really helped me in my day - -
but then, the parents fully backed and respected the teachers, and so did
the students. I suppose it is from that experience, and the smart teachers
responding here, that I feel we need some leadership from the teachers, too
- - as times sure have changed, and the type of non-academic pressures you
teachers have with lack of parent backing, discipline and social problems
to cope with - - just blows my mind how you make it through the day - - and
still, Junior may not be learning as well as teachers are capable of
teaching him, and teachers know that and don't like it

You say all must pitch in. I agree with you. But, that 'all' doesn't seem
to be happening from what I read here. Agree? You said <<Personally, I
think a major
overhaul of the system is in order, including removing students who are not
interested in learning. This alone would do wonders.>> I agree 100%, and
that happened 100% in my day, and happens today in the Germany schools I
have seen. Powerful point you made, deserving of meaningful attention.

My guess is that the best qualified and dedicated teachers mostly know what
needs to be improved for the benefit of our young generation and their own
sanity, just like your good statement on removing students. But, do
parents and politicians and union leaders and administrators, etc.
understand to the same degree? If you agree that they don't, or if they do
and still nothing meaningful happens - - then how can the process move to
some type of implementation? That's where I'm lost, and maybe you can help
in this regard. Example on your recommendation: remove non-interested (and
non-disciplined) students - - why has this not happened in your school? Is
there something we can learn from fact it has not been fixed? Have the
teachers complained to the union. Has it been put on the table for
negotiations with the school board? Why not? Where's the hang-up?

The best teachers should never shut up. In fact, they should speak louder
(my opinion), and the support would flow at least from the grandparents I
can assure you. Let's play a what if: Do you think most good teachers would
love to get together at one news conference and announce to the world: "we
the teachers demand that those students who refuse to learn, or refuse to
be polite and respectful be removed from our classrooms when we say so, or
we are out of here." If you think most teachers would support that thought,
then it would sure hit the evening news, and my guess not a single
politician or school board member would fight you - - they would be too
scared. If some parents don't like it I'll bet they are in the super
minority, and they can just dig into their own pockets and pay for Junior
to go somewhere else as he lost his chance in the public school. We
grandfathers do not like our property taxes supporting kids that don't
learn and respect their teachers, nor are we going to subsidize those
parents who are irresponsible. We are still paying school taxes to help the
new generation acquire the best education in the world. If they don't want
it, then 'out of there.'

BTW: would the teacher's union support your recommendation on such a
demand? Interested your opinion on that, and if not why not? Now that's my
opinion and you may disagree, and I recognize that teachers have paychecks
to protect and I sure don't want to see that hurt. But, what if - - - ??

Ok. Now, what's your next big recommendation, now that the disruptive and
non-learning students are out of there?

Let's stop here with a little humor: Maybe a new union - - one of teachers
and grandfathers - you be the president and the first action is the above
demand.
--
Michael Hodges
mwho...@msn.com

The Grandfather Economic Report - home page:
An economic challenge for our youth compared to prior generations:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/hodges.htm

Stagnation of Family Incomes:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/family.htm


An Education System Shortchanging Our Youth:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3795/education.htm

ck...@cyberg8t.com wrote in article <328bf488.71028183@news>...
> "Michael Hodges" <mwho...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >Well said. Many are so tired when we come home. But, we need solutions
and
> >we have to hear from the better teachers. Maybe we need a teacher
quality
> >union than has nothing to do with money, but only with quality. Some
group
> >must give the wake up call-or else to our society. I think it cannot be
> >politicians, parents or administrators. I must come from the core:
teachers
> >- - and then, the rest of us have got to back them up. Solutions, please
is
> >a very correct point, you made in my judgment. Thanks for it.
>
> Michael,
>
> I am very disappointed in your reply. Up to this point your messages had
seemed
> very supportive and interested in finding a solution. But, and maybe I am
> misinterpreting your post (please tell me if I am), you seem here to be
saying
> to me "put up or shut up"?
>
> It is all too easy for you to say "teachers should find and implement the
> solution". IMO you are wrong, and I have explained that (I think?)
extensively
> in my other two posts to this thread. It's too easy to point out the
problem and
> expect someone else to fix it. It's real easy to complain about it, too,
when
> they don't get the problem fixed. And what if it is beyond their means to
fix it
> (alone)?
>
> Parents and the community need to put their voices, votes, money and time
where
> they want it. If they come forward and show sincere interest, then
perhaps the
> teachers can work with them to fix the problems. Personally, I think a
major
> overhaul of the system is in order, including removing students who are
not
> interested in learning. This alone would do wonders.
>
> Sheila King
>

Powell Jay

unread,
Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96
to

On 13 Nov 1996, Herman Rubin wrote:

> Date: 13 NOV 1996 07:32:03 -0500
> From: Herman Rubin <hru...@b.stat.purdue.edu>
> Newgroups: alt.education.research, k12.chat.teacher, k12.ed.math,
> k12.ed.science, misc.education
> Subject: Re: Why are we worse in math & science than foreign nations?

>
> In article <568fu6$8...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> BJ Chadwick <bcha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>

[snip]

> Now this can be achieved in two ways. The one favored by those who
> refuse to accept that people have vastly different abilities is to
> lower the better ones. The other way is to recognize that children
> of the same age in a given school should have the opportunity to be
> "all that they can be". This means that the ones who can should be
> allowed and even encouraged to progress much faster and at a much
> higher level.
>

> --
> Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
> hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558
>
>

Hello Herman,

May I suggest that there are no "higher" or "lower" levels for most
students. They are different in their talents and in their learning styles.

If we had all our students pursuing their individual talents, as fast as
their styles would permit, we would achieve the end you are seeking and
much more.

The assembly-line model for schooling we have been using was fine when we
needed to turn people into computers because the computational technology
did not exist. Such narrowness of focus is no longer necessary.

I guess that, in a back-handed way, I am agreeing with you. I am sure you
will agree that only future statisticians need the depth of understanding
of statistics required to create new statistical procedures. The rest
of us need enough understanding to interpret the output from computers
without errors of application of the concepts involved.

Those with the deep statistical aptitude and the love for this style of
thinking need to be encouraged to progress at top speed toward this
outcome. Those with an eye for the glorious color tonalities in nature
and their possibilities in "art" should get the same treatment in their
talent.

The interchangeable person (assembly-line model) does not exist when
personal talents are fully realized. We need to seek diversity instead of
conformity in education. Let everyone follow the path of the things at
which they are most able, being careful not to neglect the interpersonal
communication skills, and we will have an educational system almost
everyone will support.

Thanks for your insightful comments.

Jay Powell

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