Fixing USA K-12
chudh
1. All K-12 education FEDERALLY funded, including new
STANDARD school buildings every 30 years, 600 kids max,
15 kids per teacher. This allows a flat organization,
each school one principal and assistant, two guidance
counselors, two secretaries, 30 to 50 teachers.
2. Education funding via 1% NATIONAL real estate tax
on all residences and businesses, and 5% on all rents.
Balance of funding out of general FEDERAL revenue.
NO local extra funding or frills permitted.
3. Standard national curricula, class schedules, school
calendars, textbooks, tests, and teacher salaries, adjusted
ONLY for location and for teaching in difficult districts.
QUARTERLY simultaneous standard tests taken one subject at
a time (math for 90 minutes this week, reading next week)
in Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
Test results computer-linked to national clearinghouse.
4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas,
plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
5. Widespread use of computers for learning. Keep schools
open till 9PM, and on Saturdays for extracurriculars.
Local school boards, teacher- administrator unions,
large crowded schools, and the constant scramble for funds,
along with influence of textbook publishers and building
contractors are the cause of USA K-12 problems.
Vouchers are INSANITY because they only exacerbate the
problem by spiraling public schools DOWN (best students
leave for private schools, then their parents vote down
school levies).
These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
MUCH
better on standard tests.
Local control of education is our problem!
Alan Lichtenstein
chudh wrote:
>
> Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
>
> 1. All K-12 education FEDERALLY funded, including new
> STANDARD school buildings every 30 years, 600 kids max,
> 15 kids per teacher. This allows a flat organization,
> each school one principal and assistant, two guidance
> counselors, two secretaries, 30 to 50 teachers.
To Federally fund education would require a change in the Constitution,
something which defeats the proposal. Additionally, small schools with
low teacher/pupil rations, do not demonstrate substantial increases in
student achievement commensurate with their cost. Furthermore, while on
the surface, there appears to be a reasonable ratio of
teachers/administrators, there is NO mention of supervision.
Supervision and administration are different.
> 2. Education funding via 1% NATIONAL real estate tax
> on all residences and businesses, and 5% on all rents.
> Balance of funding out of general FEDERAL revenue.
> NO local extra funding or frills permitted.
Again, the constitutional barriers are raised here. Furthermore, a
strict prohibition of additional funding, with local approval forces all
to accept a bare bones educational experience. While there should be
minimum standards, to limit all to those standards is unrealistic. One
of the most compelling reasons for those who can foot the bill for
private schools, is precisely the level of those individual services.
If a community wishes services and has the desire to pay for it by
increasing their tax-levy, what's wrong with that?
> 3. Standard national curricula, class schedules, school
> calendars, textbooks, tests, and teacher salaries, adjusted
> ONLY for location and for teaching in difficult districts.
> QUARTERLY simultaneous standard tests taken one subject at
> a time (math for 90 minutes this week, reading next week)
> in Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
> Test results computer-linked to national clearinghouse.
Again, the Constitutional barrier with respect to mandated national
curriculua, calendars, tests. With respect to teacher salaries,
collective bargaining will be the norm, and that could work on a
national level. But the minute you institute regional adjustments, you
defeat your entire premise. Why change the present system, which is
organized on precisely that basis? With respect to standardized tests,
here I agree, but those should be on a local level. Student achievement
should be based on some common standard. And while that implies
somewhat of a national standard, introducing a possible contradiction in
my assertions, I do agree that this possibility does exist.
> 4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas,
> plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
> Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
> and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
> to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
> for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
When other, private sector jobs and professions are subjected to these
criteria, then perhaps teachers may have to. But until then, these
requirements are entirely unreasonable. Most professions require entry
level test prior to hiring, and that is not a bad thing for teachers as
well. But once hired, employee performance is based on evaluation by
competent supervision. Teachers should be no different.
As far as salaries are concerned, those should be set by collective
bargaining. That's the American way.
> 5. Widespread use of computers for learning. Keep schools
> open till 9PM, and on Saturdays for extracurriculars.
In NYC, schools are already filling that role. Buildings are open past
the school day for programs sponsored by the school, as well as
community organizations. Responsible community organizations can make
application to use the facilities with no charge for weekend activities,
and many do.
> Local school boards, teacher- administrator unions,
> large crowded schools, and the constant scramble for funds,
> along with influence of textbook publishers and building
> contractors are the cause of USA K-12 problems.
Wrong, by a long shot. To be sure, there are problems related to the
items asserted above, however, they are not the major cause of the
problems in K-12 education. The major cause of the problems is the
refusal by the public to understand that THEY play a major role in their
kids education, and that schools only TEACH the material, but their kids
have to LEARN it. And ignoring the responsibility of the parents and
their children in the education process, leads one to blame the school
system for the entire problem, which is faulty. If parents realized
that their kids are NOT all genuises, and realized that when their kids
fails that likely the failure was with their kid, then perhaps we can
begin to soove the problem. But with one side refusing to accept their
role in the process and intent on placing the blame on the other, the
problem will never be solved.
> Vouchers are INSANITY because they only exacerbate the
> problem by spiraling public schools DOWN (best students
> leave for private schools, then their parents vote down
> school levies).
This, among other reasons is true.
> These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
> And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
> MUCH
> better on standard tests.
Different countries with different cultural standards cannot be used to
set astandard for America. We must use our cultural mores as a starting
point for us.
> Local control of education is our problem!
I'm not so sure that the Framers of our Constitution who provided for
that were wrong. I believe that this leads to the vitality of our
system, and although there are shortcomings, the strict regimentation
proposed above is not the answer.
Alan
Magi D. Shepley
Alan Lichtenstein wrote:
> Interesting comments, however, many are not well thought through.
>
> chudh wrote:
> >
> > Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
> >
> > 1. All K-12 education FEDERALLY funded, including new
> > STANDARD school buildings every 30 years, 600 kids max,
> > 15 kids per teacher. This allows a flat organization,
> > each school one principal and assistant, two guidance
> > counselors, two secretaries, 30 to 50 teachers.
>
> To Federally fund education would require a change in the Constitution,
> something which defeats the proposal. Additionally, small schools with
> low teacher/pupil rations, do not demonstrate substantial increases in
> student achievement commensurate with their cost. Furthermore, while on
> the surface, there appears to be a reasonable ratio of
> teachers/administrators, there is NO mention of supervision.
> Supervision and administration are different.
I agree here, with Alan. I also question why only 2 guidance counselors.
That means that each counselor has 300 kids. That is too many kids for any
kind of assistance... you're making the counselors nothing more than
paper-pushers, and perhaps, educational testers. What good is a guidance
counselor with 300 students? I speak from experience here!
> > 2. Education funding via 1% NATIONAL real estate tax
> > on all residences and businesses, and 5% on all rents.
> > Balance of funding out of general FEDERAL revenue.
> > NO local extra funding or frills permitted.
>
> Again, the constitutional barriers are raised here. Furthermore, a
> strict prohibition of additional funding, with local approval forces all
> to accept a bare bones educational experience. While there should be
> minimum standards, to limit all to those standards is unrealistic. One
> of the most compelling reasons for those who can foot the bill for
> private schools, is precisely the level of those individual services.
> If a community wishes services and has the desire to pay for it by
> increasing their tax-levy, what's wrong with that?
>
Again, agreeing. I also quesiton why a person who is renting pays 5%, while
a person who owns pays 1%. Generally, people who own homes or businesses
are better off than those who rent. There are reasons that people rent as
opposed to own. I also disagree with the lack of local funding. If the
locals cannot fund their schools, what is the point? You'll have a massive
flight to private schools that can provide the frills that the parents
want... particularly, I think, for those that are more able. You'll leave
those less able, and who need more money, in the public schools. My
students aren't cheap to educate, and your federal funding scheme cuts them
out completely.
> > 3. Standard national curricula, class schedules, school
> > calendars, textbooks, tests, and teacher salaries, adjusted
> > ONLY for location and for teaching in difficult districts.
> > QUARTERLY simultaneous standard tests taken one subject at
> > a time (math for 90 minutes this week, reading next week)
> > in Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
> > Test results computer-linked to national clearinghouse.
>
> Again, the Constitutional barrier with respect to mandated national
> curriculua, calendars, tests. With respect to teacher salaries,
> collective bargaining will be the norm, and that could work on a
> national level. But the minute you institute regional adjustments, you
> defeat your entire premise. Why change the present system, which is
> organized on precisely that basis? With respect to standardized tests,
> here I agree, but those should be on a local level. Student achievement
> should be based on some common standard. And while that implies
> somewhat of a national standard, introducing a possible contradiction in
> my assertions, I do agree that this possibility does exist.
What do you do for the students who cannot and should have a "standard
national curriculum"? Are you going to provide vocational options for the
students I teach? There are currently very few good vocational or
adult-preparation classes for my students. I'd like to see a good all-day
class that combines vocational experience with solid real-life academics.
It wouldn't be hard to do, but it might not be cheap.
> > 4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas,
> > plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
How do you test my disciplinary style?
> > Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
> > and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
> > to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
> > for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
My student's test scores are going to be in the bottom of the barrel. Does
this mean you're going to pay me less? I don't currently, but have always
taught in the bottom 25% of the schools. I'm a special education teacher
for students with cognitive impairments. My kids can't take your tests.
But I have a lot of success with them, and can show solid growth in all my
students. But they won't pass your test. Also, what exactly are you going
to test me in? Is your history test going to require me to know Stonewall
Jackson's first name, or is it going to be a reasonable test? Is your math
test going to test the math I teach (consumer/functional mathematics) or are
you going to test math you think I should know? How about English?
Science?
> When other, private sector jobs and professions are subjected to these
> criteria, then perhaps teachers may have to. But until then, these
> requirements are entirely unreasonable. Most professions require entry
> level test prior to hiring, and that is not a bad thing for teachers as
> well.
And we have that. I took the National Teacher Exam (NTE)/Praxis. I think
its changed names. I didn't just take it one time, either. I had to take
it for each state I wanted to teach special education in, if they had their
own test. So I've taken the general special education test for MD and VA,
I've taken the test for PA, and I took the test for NY. I also took the
professional tests... general knowledge, communication and professional
knowledge. I also took the test for Illinois. These tests aren't cheap.
> But once hired, employee performance is based on evaluation by
> competent supervision. Teachers should be no different.
> As far as salaries are concerned, those should be set by collective
> bargaining. That's the American way.
>
> > 5. Widespread use of computers for learning. Keep schools
> > open till 9PM, and on Saturdays for extracurriculars.
>
> In NYC, schools are already filling that role. Buildings are open past
> the school day for programs sponsored by the school, as well as
> community organizations. Responsible community organizations can make
> application to use the facilities with no charge for weekend activities,
> and many do.
>
The schools where I am now are already doing that.... the school is open
until late each night for recreation programs, and on Saturdays for rec and
tutoring. We're open on Sundays as well, for teachers, and a
non-denominational church uses our multi-purpose room. During the summer,
the ARC and the county's recreation department use the school for special
needs camps and recreation. In my last district, this wasn't done... and my
school in Baltimore was too small for anybody to want to use... though in
the past they had used the therapy pool for special olympics. The year I
worked there the pool kept breaking down, so it wasn't used too much.
I snipped the other things, but generally agree with Alan on his statements.
Magi
Remove all space cats to email.
klsg...@comcast.net
"Alan Lichtenstein" <alicht...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3CA5B6...@erols.com...
> > Local school boards, teacher- administrator unions,
> > large crowded schools, and the constant scramble for funds,
> > along with influence of textbook publishers and building
> > contractors are the cause of USA K-12 problems.
>
> Wrong, by a long shot. To be sure, there are problems related to the
> items asserted above, however, they are not the major cause of the
> problems in K-12 education. The major cause of the problems is the
> refusal by the public to understand that THEY play a major role in their
> kids education, and that schools only TEACH the material, but their kids
> have to LEARN it. And ignoring the responsibility of the parents and
> their children in the education process, leads one to blame the school
> system for the entire problem, which is faulty. If parents realized
> that their kids are NOT all genuises, and realized that when their kids
> fails that likely the failure was with their kid, then perhaps we can
> role in the process and intent on placing the blame on the other, the
> problem will never be solved.
>
the emphasis on education and believe it or not, parents are the worse
violators. So many of my parents run the gamut between either being totally
aware and uninterested in their child's education to being completely
obsessed with their child being "the most perfect child in the world". In
the end, the school system gets blamed for their children's weaknesses.
Everyday, I go home and feel like I have been beating my head against a wall
all day long. I have managed to hold on to my teaching ideals, despite
seeing the cynicism and criticism make mincemeat of my colleagues. In the
face of the blame that teachers receive, I have noticed that the teachers
themselves become less involved, they are less likely to see each child as
an individual. For example, I have always taken homework a day late with a
30 pt. deduction, however, this year, because my team have come under fire
from parents due to the fact that some teachers accept late homework and
others simply give a zero, we have had to develop a "blanket" homework
policy. I hate it, but being in the minority (as well as the youngest
teacher), we reached a consensus that no teacher would accept late homework
without a note from a parent. This actually backfired - I teach 6th
grade, and if I had a dollar for every note from parents saying how their
little Johnny/Suzy couldn't do his/her homework because he/she had soccer,
basketball, dance, origami class (whatever) - I'd be rich enough that the
district wouldn't have to pay me anymore. We had to then amend our policy to
say that homework would only be accepted late if the reason was due to an
"emergency" situation. It has gotten completely out of hand. We actually
had one parent (who happens to teach at our high school) tell us that we
could not penalize her son for not doing his homework becasue she feels
homework is unnecessary and she refuses to make her children do it. When
did everything else become more important than education????
You can regiment my profession, my school, my administrators, and my
students, but unless you apply that same strict guidelines to my parents
(impossible), then you will have solved nothing.
--
Miss Andrea Brida
Imagine...Believe....Achieve!!!
Donna Metler
Piggybacking here...
"Alan Lichtenstein" <alicht...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3CA5B6...@erols.com...
> Interesting comments, however, many are not well thought through.
>
> chudh wrote:
> >
> > Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
> >
> > 1. All K-12 education FEDERALLY funded, including new
> > STANDARD school buildings every 30 years, 600 kids max,
> > 15 kids per teacher. This allows a flat organization,
> > each school one principal and assistant, two guidance
> > counselors, two secretaries, 30 to 50 teachers.
>
> To Federally fund education would require a change in the Constitution,
> something which defeats the proposal. Additionally, small schools with
> low teacher/pupil rations, do not demonstrate substantial increases in
> student achievement commensurate with their cost. Furthermore, while on
> the surface, there appears to be a reasonable ratio of
> teachers/administrators, there is NO mention of supervision.
> Supervision and administration are different.
These sound reasonable, and could be done on a district or state level. In
fact, elementary new construction in my district and current class size is
about at that level.
However, there is the little fact that population doesn't wait until
buildings can be built. A few years back, I had a 3 school circuit, and one
of those schools had over 1000 students, but really could only house about
700 comfortably. The result was very crowded classrooms, often officially
housing two classes and two teachers. The official class size may have been
20-1, but there is a big difference between 20-1 and 40-2 when dealing with
7 yr olds!
My current school building was built as a high school, but is now an
elementary. We house about 800 students, and are nowhere near maximum
capacity. Since the rooms are quite small, many have been combined to make
larger areas for groups to work which need more space. Yet officially we
have about 10 "unused" classrooms. (My room is officially two rooms on the
blueprints) There is no way the district would let us drop to 600 students,
even though it would be beneficial to everyone to do so, because our
physical plant can cover more. It is a constant fight to keep them from
increasing our enrollment past the point it is at now.
>
> > 2. Education funding via 1% NATIONAL real estate tax
> > on all residences and businesses, and 5% on all rents.
> > Balance of funding out of general FEDERAL revenue.
> > NO local extra funding or frills permitted.
>
> Again, the constitutional barriers are raised here. Furthermore, a
> strict prohibition of additional funding, with local approval forces all
> to accept a bare bones educational experience. While there should be
> minimum standards, to limit all to those standards is unrealistic. One
> of the most compelling reasons for those who can foot the bill for
> private schools, is precisely the level of those individual services.
> If a community wishes services and has the desire to pay for it by
> increasing their tax-levy, what's wrong with that?
In addition, a lot of the funding disparity in my experience isn't at the
district level, but at the school level. Some schools have parents who will
findraise, have connections to the corporate world and therefore get
"adopted" by businesses, and similar (my school is fortunate in that a
former student works in the PR/advertising department at the Autozone
headquarters, and has been able to get us adopted by Autozone. They've
provided a LOT of financial support for our inner-city school over the past
few years-and gotten a lot of positive PR out of it).
Federal money tends to flow inversely based on income. Schools which serve
high SES populations tend to get more federal money-and more federal
strings. Not necessarily a plus.
> > 3. Standard national curricula, class schedules, school
> > calendars, textbooks, tests, and teacher salaries, adjusted
> > ONLY for location and for teaching in difficult districts.
> > QUARTERLY simultaneous standard tests taken one subject at
> > a time (math for 90 minutes this week, reading next week)
> > in Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
> > Test results computer-linked to national clearinghouse.
Most states already have some form of standardized testing. I object to the
quarterly idea, because standardized testing takes a huge amount of time
already. I do NOT want to have to go through this multiple times a year, and
I don't think it would benefit students to lose a month instead of a week to
testing every year. I taught in a school which did schoolwide tests each
grading period, and basically things shut down the last week of every 6.
Stress was high, and student achievement on the state-wide test went UP
after the schoolwide tests were dropped.
>
> Again, the Constitutional barrier with respect to mandated national
> curriculua, calendars, tests. With respect to teacher salaries,
> collective bargaining will be the norm, and that could work on a
> national level. But the minute you institute regional adjustments, you
> defeat your entire premise. Why change the present system, which is
> organized on precisely that basis? With respect to standardized tests,
> here I agree, but those should be on a local level. Student achievement
> should be based on some common standard. And while that implies
> somewhat of a national standard, introducing a possible contradiction in
> my assertions, I do agree that this possibility does exist.
>
> > 4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas,
> > plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
> > Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
> > and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
> > to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
> > for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
>
> When other, private sector jobs and professions are subjected to these
> criteria, then perhaps teachers may have to. But until then, these
> requirements are entirely unreasonable. Most professions require entry
> level test prior to hiring, and that is not a bad thing for teachers as
> well. But once hired, employee performance is based on evaluation by
> competent supervision. Teachers should be no different.
> As far as salaries are concerned, those should be set by collective
> bargaining. That's the American way.
We already take tests to get into education programs and to get certified.
If a teacher can pass these tests upon entering the profession, I seriously
doubt they're going to have less knowledge over time. If a teacher doesn't
have the skills on entering, they probably won't be hired IF a more
qualified person is out there. Often there isn't.
If school funding is equitable, how can you justify a bonus in high-need
schools?
>
> > 5. Widespread use of computers for learning. Keep schools
> > open till 9PM, and on Saturdays for extracurriculars.
>
> In NYC, schools are already filling that role. Buildings are open past
> the school day for programs sponsored by the school, as well as
> community organizations. Responsible community organizations can make
> application to use the facilities with no charge for weekend activities,
> and many do.
Same here.
>
> > Local school boards, teacher- administrator unions,
> > large crowded schools, and the constant scramble for funds,
> > along with influence of textbook publishers and building
> > contractors are the cause of USA K-12 problems.
>
These are symptoms of the problem, not the causes. Good schools don't need
unions, because they are reasonable places to work which treat employees
with respect. If schools were funded appropriately, it wouldn't be necessary
to scramble for funds. I currently have the wonderful job almost every year
of finding the funds somewhere to keep the fine arts program operating in my
school. The district funds the teacher salaries, but nothing else. Since
most of the funds coming into the school from federal and state money can't
be used for non-academic areas, and fine arts are considered non-academic,
we have to fund through other means. I resent the amount of time I spend
playing the PR game, writing grants, and generally trying to sell something
which all research indicates is beneficial. But, it is part of teaching
music in a public system.
Textbooks and buildings are both results of having to deal with a burecracy
with too many rules and not enough common sense. It's the same in any public
sector area.
> Wrong, by a long shot. To be sure, there are problems related to the
> items asserted above, however, they are not the major cause of the
> problems in K-12 education. The major cause of the problems is the
> refusal by the public to understand that THEY play a major role in their
> kids education, and that schools only TEACH the material, but their kids
> have to LEARN it. And ignoring the responsibility of the parents and
> their children in the education process, leads one to blame the school
> system for the entire problem, which is faulty. If parents realized
> that their kids are NOT all genuises, and realized that when their kids
> fails that likely the failure was with their kid, then perhaps we can
> begin to soove the problem. But with one side refusing to accept their
> role in the process and intent on placing the blame on the other, the
> problem will never be solved.
>
Agreed here. As long as the parents feel that they have no control and say
in their child's education, why SHOULD they be involved? We have done a
wonderful job of saying to parents "We don't need you. Just drop off your
kids and let the professionals handle it." Even in schools where parent
involvement is a big thing, it often means baking cookies and fundraising,
not helping in making decisions.
> > Vouchers are INSANITY because they only exacerbate the
> > problem by spiraling public schools DOWN (best students
> > leave for private schools, then their parents vote down
> > school levies).
>
> This, among other reasons is true.
>
Why would parents who recieve vouchers (public money) vote down spending
public money?
> > These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
> > And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
> > MUCH
> > better on standard tests.
>
> Different countries with different cultural standards cannot be used to
> set astandard for America. We must use our cultural mores as a starting
> point for us.
Look at the success rate of ALL their children, not just some. One thing the
US education system does right (and my one major fear on vouchers) is to
attempt to make a basic education available to all, instead of a higher
quality one available to only some. What I would like to see is both the
baseline and the higher level available to all, without income being an
issue.
>
> > Local control of education is our problem!
>
> I'm not so sure that the Framers of our Constitution who provided for
> that were wrong. I believe that this leads to the vitality of our
> system, and although there are shortcomings, the strict regimentation
> proposed above is not the answer.
>
> Alan
When you find me a national system which works equally well for inner-city
kids and $500,000+ suburban kids, then I can see the point. Until then,
calls for such programs usually mean "nationalize what would be best for MY
child, and to **** with the rest of them". Why not adopt a program where
every parent has the choice, and the responsibility, of finding a program in
which their child can be successful. Accountability needs to be applied to
more than just the school, if education is to work.
Jim Wayne
to build empty classrooms in anticipation of future growth. This is partly
because such financing may result in increased tax levies, but also because
so often they have seen predictions of growth to be inaccurate. Either it
does not take place at the rate predicted, or it does not take place in the
areas predicted.
Our district is currently looking at adding around 300 students per year for
the next 5-10 years. This is based not only on past growth, but on the fact
that the Marine Corps, which has a major base here, is consolidating many of
its training functions to our area, as well as adding capability. We
therefore know we will need AT LEAST 10 new classrooms a year during that
period.
Five years ago, our county passed a school construction bond issue that
built a new high school, a new middle school, three new elementary schools,
and made major additions to many existing schools. That bond issue in
effect brought us up to our classroom needs AT THE TIME IT PASSED. Since
then, we have added about 1500 students.
Several critics say, "Why didn't you ask for $5 million more when you had
the bond issue? You knew you would need it." But 10 years ago, we did ask
for a larger bond issue to meet anticipated needs and the voters turned it
down. Many of the same critics then said, "You are asking too much. We
don't need that many classrooms. You can't prove absolutely that the system
will grow that much."
The political reality is that voters may accept arguments to tax themselves
to meet present needs, but it is very difficult to ask them to do so for
anticipated needs.
Jim Wayne
"Donna Metler" <nospam_...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:zglp8.47415$Q7.36...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
REMAINDER SNIPPED
BlueOctopus
Right now, with tenure, and promotion for "going to school, and getting an
advanced degree", we have teachers who basically can't teach.
Give those who can teach the opportunity.
You don't need a masters degree to teach 2nd grade.
High School, and Jr. High teachers should be able to MAX standardized tests
given to their students.
Why would an Algebra teacher not be able to MAX an Algebra exam?
You have to know, and understand it to teach it.
You don't need umpteen years in college to qualify.
"chudh" <chud...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CA597...@worldnet.att.net...
chudh
I have gfour kids and NONE ever took any "International Tests".
Carl
MattJApp wrote:
>
> This is absolutely not the case in Germany. International test results are
> slightly lower than in the US.
>
> A teacher in Germany for 23 years,
> Matthew Appleby
chudh
my proposals is semiannual testing of teachers, which would
expose the weak links, and direct them to remedial classes.
But the biggest K-12 problems, by far, are local control,
source of funding, buildings, curricula / tests, and textbooks.
King Pineapple
news:u3np8.13804$Eb5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> How about changing the teachers?
because the (liberal) teachers' unions would FORBID such a thing.
--
"I'm a millionaire, I'm a multi-millionaire.
I'm filthy rich.
You know why I'm a multi-millionaire?
'Cause multi-millions like what I do.
That's pretty good, isn't it?"
Michael Moore
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Jim Wayne wrote:
> One problem every district faces is that the public is not usually willing
> to build empty classrooms in anticipation of future growth. This is partly
> because such financing may result in increased tax levies, but also because
> so often they have seen predictions of growth to be inaccurate. Either it
> does not take place at the rate predicted, or it does not take place in the
> areas predicted.
>
> Our district is currently looking at adding around 300 students per year for
> the next 5-10 years. This is based not only on past growth, but on the fact
> that the Marine Corps, which has a major base here, is consolidating many of
> its training functions to our area, as well as adding capability. We
> therefore know we will need AT LEAST 10 new classrooms a year during that
> period.
>
> Five years ago, our county passed a school construction bond issue that
> built a new high school, a new middle school, three new elementary schools,
> and made major additions to many existing schools. That bond issue in
> effect brought us up to our classroom needs AT THE TIME IT PASSED. Since
> then, we have added about 1500 students.
That sounds more like what we add per month. At the current rate, we are
opening a new school per month. By 2008 we will have added 88 new schools and
expect to fall short of needs current at that time. Add the years
not far behind us and the new school total is about 120. The growth
situation here is something that can't be ignored, consequently, the
bond measures have passed.
My previous district was more like the one you describe. Took 50 years
to get a bond measure passed to build facilities for the growth we'd
experienced during those 50 years! But as school funding reaches crisis
levels, more and more families are leaving the area. I was one who
left specifically because of the state of education there. The new
schools were nice but....
>
> Several critics say, "Why didn't you ask for $5 million more when you had
> the bond issue? You knew you would need it." But 10 years ago, we did ask
> for a larger bond issue to meet anticipated needs and the voters turned it
> down. Many of the same critics then said, "You are asking too much. We
> don't need that many classrooms. You can't prove absolutely that the system
> will grow that much."
>
> The political reality is that voters may accept arguments to tax themselves
> to meet present needs, but it is very difficult to ask them to do so for
> anticipated needs.
>
My old district served six separate communities. Not all of them needed
new schools but in order to get the bond measure passed, we had to build
something in each community -whether they needed it or not. So they spent
a little more than they needed to spend. But until everyone got something
out of the deal, the voters wouldn't pass a thing.
Jim Wayne
teacher. The students move on, the teacher is stuck in a dysfunctional
classroom hour after hour, day after day. (I do not mean by this to
downplay the problems of the students, which are real and must be addressed,
but simply to point out that the problems of the teacher are usually worse.)
I sincerely believe that most truly incompetent teachers are driven from the
classroom by their own incompetence.
In some cases, a formerly competent teacher may become inadequate, usually
as a result of things outside the classroom. I have seen wonderful teachers
slowly come apart after the death of a spouse, or a serious illness. In
some cases, teachers either can't (because they are unaware of their own
need) or won't (because of stubbornness) update their skills. That is when
the administration must act.
But I do not believe that the vast majority of teachers are incompetent.
Because I work in an itinerant situation, I get to see lots of classrooms
and lots of different teachers. Most all of them are competent and caring.
Most of the others are gone after a year or so, often helped in their
decision to leave by the administration's firm push.
Jim Wayne
"BlueOctopus" <nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:u3np8.13804$Eb5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
SumBuny
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:3CA5D897...@concentric.net...
> I missed this, so I'm going to reply in-line to both.
>
> national curriculum"? Are you going to provide vocational options for the
> students I teach? There are currently very few good vocational or
> adult-preparation classes for my students. I'd like to see a good all-day
> class that combines vocational experience with solid real-life academics.
> It wouldn't be hard to do, but it might not be cheap.
Thanks, Magi...I am glad I am not the only one who saw this discrepancy.
You have kids on "both ends" of the special needs spectrum...the gifted
students who are truly bored in standardised classes, the mentally
handicapped kids who are likewaise bored (because they cannot grasp it), the
one with physical disabilities who need extra help regardless of mental
capacities, and the ones with multiple handicaps...
>
> > > Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
> > > and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
> > > to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
> > > for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
>
> My student's test scores are going to be in the bottom of the barrel.
Does
> this mean you're going to pay me less? I don't currently, but have always
> taught in the bottom 25% of the schools. I'm a special education teacher
> for students with cognitive impairments. My kids can't take your tests.
> But I have a lot of success with them, and can show solid growth in all my
> students. But they won't pass your test. Also, what exactly are you
going
> to test me in? Is your history test going to require me to know Stonewall
> Jackson's first name, or is it going to be a reasonable test? Is your
math
> test going to test the math I teach (consumer/functional mathematics) or
are
> you going to test math you think I should know? How about English?
> Science?
Exactly...what will they do for anyone in the special ed departments?
Florida has been attempting to do this for a while...even to the point of
having those who are diagnosed as Trainably Mentally Handicapped and
Educably Mentally Handicapped taking the same standardised tests that
studetns of their chronoligical ages are taking. I.e., you could have a
child who is of the *age* to be a 4th grader taking the 4th grade test, even
if he is barely reading on a kindergarten level...
....*and* basing the teacher's salary on those results...! So far this has
not come to pass (the salary side), but they *are* testing the kids in this
fashion!
>
> > When other, private sector jobs and professions are subjected to these
> > criteria, then perhaps teachers may have to. But until then, these
> > requirements are entirely unreasonable. Most professions require entry
> > level test prior to hiring, and that is not a bad thing for teachers as
> > well.
>
> And we have that. I took the National Teacher Exam (NTE)/Praxis. I think
> its changed names. I didn't just take it one time, either. I had to take
> it for each state I wanted to teach special education in, if they had
their
> own test. So I've taken the general special education test for MD and VA,
> I've taken the test for PA, and I took the test for NY. I also took the
> professional tests... general knowledge, communication and professional
> knowledge. I also took the test for Illinois. These tests aren't cheap.
Air crews have yearly testing-both written and practical.....I know that
Florida teachers have to renew their currencies every so often, but do not
know what the interims are-I *think* it is three years. In addition to
this, they have to have a certain amount of training hours, as well as
ongoing college courses.
Buny
Jim Wayne
deteriorate that six months after they passed a test, they can't pass it
again?
Jim Wayne
"chudh" <chud...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CA603...@worldnet.att.net...
Jim Wayne
firing of inadequate teachers. We simply asked that before you fire a
person who has been adequate for years (a condition of career status in my
state), you let that person know what they are doing wrong and give them a
chance to fix it. If they don't, they go. Our association does not prevent
firing, but it does work to prevent firing without cause, and without giving
the person being fired a chance to clean up their act. May I ask what is
wrong with that?
I am posting this only on the group I read. I regret crossposting earlier
responses.
Jim Wayne
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Mmnp8.2720$nt1.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
SumBuny
"Jim Wayne" <jhw...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:uabujpr...@corp.supernews.com...
> One problem every district faces is that the public is not usually willing
> to build empty classrooms in anticipation of future growth. This is
partly
> because such financing may result in increased tax levies, but also
because
> so often they have seen predictions of growth to be inaccurate. Either it
> does not take place at the rate predicted, or it does not take place in
the
> areas predicted.
Its not only the public, but sometimes the school board itself. Our
district voted on a 1% sales tax for 4 years. It built several new schools,
and renovated the rest. The deal made with the contractor was that if the
contractor was able to come in under time, and under budget (i.e., whatever
the *final* amount of the 4 years of taxes was), they could split it with
the school district as profit.
My son's new elementary school was built the first year, to house 650
students. It opened with a population of 645-and the neighborhoods around
it were growing daily in new homes built. Within months, the science lab
and the art lab were converted to classroom space-within a year it had
portable buildings. The contractor looked at the plans, and offered to add
6 more classrooms and charge the district for only 4. Sounded good, right?
The school board accepted their plans to add 4 classrooms, but turned down
the extra 2 "freebies". Why? "Because it could raise the potential
population too high (900 students)" The semester before they rezoned, the
population *without* the 2 extra classrooms was 879. And they have had to
rezone schools every 3 years...and the art and science labs still are used
for general classes, and not for the specialized activities they were
designed for.
Our city has been called the fastest growing city in the area by the
electric company 6 years running...you would think that the school board
would be doing their homework a little better...
Buny
Racqu...@hvc.rr.com
<nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>How about changing the teachers?
To what? Chairs? Do you think there are tons of people flocking to
the profession? If there WERE, don't you think the schools would
already be hiring the best they could get? Guys like me (physics and
chemistry degrees) are in the catbird seat since there just aren't too
many of us around. Math has a similar, but slightly less serious
problem.
>Right now, with tenure, and promotion for "going to school, and getting an
>advanced degree", we have teachers who basically can't teach.
Yeah, and we have parents who torture their kids to death. Let's get
real here and appreciate that there are poor teachers just as there
are poor parents, just as there are poor everything else. The issue
should be the vast majority and not the tiny minority. The solution
to perceived tenure problems is to put hiring and firing into the
hands of teachers, or at least share that power. Tenure arose out of
abuse of power by administration and school boards. Avoid the abuse,
and the protections don't need to be as strong.
>Give those who can teach the opportunity.
They're already getting it.
>You don't need a masters degree to teach 2nd grade.
Yet there are people who want to continue to test teachers who have
attained a masters degree in an academic subject. What sense does
THAT make? At least requiring a Masters (as New York does) means that
a teacher is going to have to continue his education.
>High School, and Jr. High teachers should be able to MAX standardized
>tests given to their students. Why would an Algebra teacher not be able
> to MAX an Algebra exam?
They probably would, but would they "max" the english test, history,
and science tests which some would require they ALSO be able to do?
>You have to know, and understand it to teach it.
I agree.
>You don't need umpteen years in college to qualify.
No, but you should have an idea where the material "goes from here" in
order to prepare your students properly. We have people on here who
would require elementary teachers of math to be the equivilent of
college professors - Ever read Herman Rubin's stuff?
Racqu...@hvc.rr.com
wrote:
>Qualified teachers are an essential. That is why one of
>my proposals is semiannual testing of teachers, which would
>expose the weak links, and direct them to remedial classes.
Please allow me to ask a couple silly questions.. In NY, teachers
must complete a Masters degree. They already have Bachelors degrees.
They graduated high school in the "good old days" when things were
supposed to be SO much better, passed their college courses, got their
degrees, passed MORE graduate-level courses, and got THAT degree.
Why, pray tell, would you think MORE testing necessary? And if they
passed your semiannual test once, why would you figure it worth the
time, money, and energy to test them AGAIN 6 months later?! The whole
idea seems wasteful and frankly silly.
My second question is: Supposing that a teacher DOES fail his
semiannual testing and reports for "remedial" classes, who is taking
his place, and who is footing the bill for his replacement and his
remediation?
> But the biggest K-12 problems, by far, are local control,
>source of funding, buildings, curricula / tests, and textbooks.
Local funding I'll go along with, but local control is an issue that a
large portion of the public will fight you on, and rightly so, imo.
Magi D. Shepley
SumBuny wrote:
> "Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message
> news:3CA5D897...@concentric.net...
> > I missed this, so I'm going to reply in-line to both.
> >
> > What do you do for the students who cannot and should have a "standard
> > national curriculum"? Are you going to provide vocational options for the
> > students I teach? There are currently very few good vocational or
> > adult-preparation classes for my students. I'd like to see a good all-day
> > class that combines vocational experience with solid real-life academics.
> > It wouldn't be hard to do, but it might not be cheap.
>
> Thanks, Magi...I am glad I am not the only one who saw this discrepancy.
> You have kids on "both ends" of the special needs spectrum...the gifted
> students who are truly bored in standardised classes, the mentally
> handicapped kids who are likewaise bored (because they cannot grasp it), the
> one with physical disabilities who need extra help regardless of mental
> capacities, and the ones with multiple handicaps...
That is another good point. I generally forget the other end of the spectrum,
but not through malice. I just don't work with those kids very often. The kids
that are gifted need just as "special" an education as a child with a
disability. There are some who equate being gifted with having a disability...
and it could well be.
> > > > Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
> > > > and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
> > > > to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
> > > > for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
> >
> > My student's test scores are going to be in the bottom of the barrel. Does
> > this mean you're going to pay me less? I don't currently, but have always
> > taught in the bottom 25% of the schools. I'm a special education teacher
> > for students with cognitive impairments. My kids can't take your tests.
> > But I have a lot of success with them, and can show solid growth in all my
> > students. But they won't pass your test. Also, what exactly are you going
> > to test me in? Is your history test going to require me to know Stonewall
> > Jackson's first name, or is it going to be a reasonable test? Is your math
> > test going to test the math I teach (consumer/functional mathematics) or are
>
> > you going to test math you think I should know? How about English?
> > Science?
>
> Exactly...what will they do for anyone in the special ed departments?
> Florida has been attempting to do this for a while...even to the point of
> having those who are diagnosed as Trainably Mentally Handicapped and
> Educably Mentally Handicapped taking the same standardised tests that
> studetns of their chronoligical ages are taking. I.e., you could have a
> child who is of the *age* to be a 4th grader taking the 4th grade test, even
> if he is barely reading on a kindergarten level...
They are doing it where I am also. The children either take the alternative
assessment, which is labeled as being for those students with "signficant
cognitive impairments" or they take the state tests. In the case of my
students, if they are an LD self-contained class, they MUST take the state test,
because they are being "exposed to that curriculum". So, they are totally
destroying any hope of inclusion for kids who could benefit from it, because the
teachers will be afraid to have the kids because they will fail the tests. Some
of my kids *should* be included into some classes, because they need the
challenge... but it should be a team-taught situation where I am there to
modify the work, or include some real-life stuff where appropriate.
> ....*and* basing the teacher's salary on those results...! So far this has
> not come to pass (the salary side), but they *are* testing the kids in this
> fashion!
That isn't happening yet, but the school's accreditation is dependent on the
scores of the students taking the tests. And the principal's rating. So
principals hate students with cognitive impairments now and severe LD. I just
don't see the point of testing the kids like this. It doesn't tell you what the
students can do!
> > > When other, private sector jobs and professions are subjected to these
> > > criteria, then perhaps teachers may have to. But until then, these
> > > requirements are entirely unreasonable. Most professions require entry
> > > level test prior to hiring, and that is not a bad thing for teachers as
> > > well.
> >
> > And we have that. I took the National Teacher Exam (NTE)/Praxis. I think
> > its changed names. I didn't just take it one time, either. I had to take
> > it for each state I wanted to teach special education in, if they had their
> > own test. So I've taken the general special education test for MD and VA,
> > I've taken the test for PA, and I took the test for NY. I also took the
> > professional tests... general knowledge, communication and professional
> > knowledge. I also took the test for Illinois. These tests aren't cheap.
>
> Air crews have yearly testing-both written and practical.....I know that
> Florida teachers have to renew their currencies every so often, but do not
> know what the interims are-I *think* it is three years. In addition to
> this, they have to have a certain amount of training hours, as well as
> ongoing college courses.
I wouldn't object to practical tests... though I question how they would do
this. I'm not sure what value a written test would be since I've already proven
to you that I can read, write and figure before I received a teaching license.
Magi D. Shepley
to be renovated again until the 2006 budget cycle. That means that they won't
even CONSIDER renovation plans before 2004, and that the needed renovations
won't be completed until 2007/2008 (the 2006 budget is decided in Spring 2005,
and they would still have to get plans and contractors before they would start
the work...).
We're 200 students over-capacity now. We were built for 850, and have 1050.
We're scheduled to get more students next year, again... but because we're such
a transient area, they aren't sure how many we will get. Best guess is that
we'll be at 1150 or 1200 next year. They've turned our book storage and our
general storage rooms into offices for ESL and Special education teachers,
because they don't have rooms. They are on traveling carts. They are also
turning the storage area behind one of the gyms into a classroom. I have a
room, but its so small that nobody else wants it. I only get to keep it because
I cram 5 kids into it 2 periods a day... Its not big enough for 5 kids.
We're certainly going to lose our tennis courts as they add more trailers, and
possibly the basketball blacktop as well.
Magi
Jim Wayne wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
BlueOctopus
<Racqu...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cjbcauotkr8kasccu...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:00:58 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
> <nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >You don't need a masters degree to teach 2nd grade.
>
> Yet there are people who want to continue to test teachers who have
> attained a masters degree in an academic subject. What sense does
> THAT make? At least requiring a Masters (as New York does) means that
> a teacher is going to have to continue his education.
I live, and work in New York. I am a computer programmer..
I have worked with former teachers, and others who have masters degrees, and
doctorates. If they didn't tell you, you wouldn't guess it in a hundred
years.
You can continue your education in a variety of ways, going to an ivory
tower for knowledge is only one approach.
I see people helplessly begging "teach me", when all they have to do is go
to the library, or a book store.
Initiative, and self-reliance are foreign to them.
They would rather remain ignorant, until they have been force-fed.
Someone I knew described life as a process of jumping through hoops, in the
hope of getting a reward. Sad, isn't it?
But, the scholl system does just that.
>
> >High School, and Jr. High teachers should be able to MAX standardized
> >tests given to their students. Why would an Algebra teacher not be able
> > to MAX an Algebra exam?
>
> They probably would, but would they "max" the english test, history,
> and science tests which some would require they ALSO be able to do?
>
I'm not a teacher, but I probably could MAX any subject I chose to teach at
the High School or lower level.
As for the other subjects, if you don't teach it, you shouldn't have to max
it, but a respectable score of 85 or above should be attainable.
> >You have to know, and understand it to teach it.
>
> I agree.
>
> >You don't need umpteen years in college to qualify.
>
> No, but you should have an idea where the material "goes from here" in
> order to prepare your students properly.
That is called understanding the concepts.
When I was in High School, I learned that if I understood the underlying
concepts, I could derive mathematical proofs myself. Which meant that I
didn't have to memorize them.
> We have people on here who would require elementary teachers
> of math to be the equivilent of college professors
Nope. I don't care if you have a 5th grade education, and you're teaching
Calculus.
The bottom line is: are the students learning?
Can you present the material in a manner which teaches?
> Ever read Herman Rubin's stuff?
Nope. I'm a consumer, not a provider.
The problems I see are the result of "formal rules" which stifle creativity,
and initiative.
Some are more interested in the "number of credits", than they are in
understanding concepts, and applying them.
BlueOctopus
"Alberto Moreira" <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote in message
news:16fcauofcs8jjmigv...@4ax.com...
> Racqu...@hvc.rr.com said:
>
> >On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:00:58 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
> ><nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>How about changing the teachers?
> >
> >To what? Chairs? Do you think there are tons of people flocking to
> >the profession? If there WERE, don't you think the schools would
> >already be hiring the best they could get? Guys like me (physics and
> >chemistry degrees) are in the catbird seat since there just aren't too
> >many of us around. Math has a similar, but slightly less serious
> >problem.
>
> professionals, or at least they should be.
Did the same kids who could become Doctors, or Lawyers also want to become
teachers? I don't think so.
>In my profession, I will
> not be tested every two steps I make - I either get a minimum level of
> confidence from my employers, or I walk and go work elsewhere.
Unless you have tenure, then you can get away with quite a bit before you
are let go.
> If the job market for teachers was a healthy one, this kind of thing would
> cure itself: want to impose your testing standards ? Go find your own
> guinea pigs, but as far as I'm concerned, thanks but no thanks, I'm
> not going to teach in your school or in your district.
Teaching certification is simple.
Are the children passing their exams?
>
> So, the reason why people can get away with this kind of nonsense -
> testing, certification and what not - is because teachers are
> basically slaves. There's only one employer, and it holds a big
> monopoly.
There is no monopoly. If there were, teachers would not be able to move from
school district to school district.
> That's why I believe, in the end, that vouchers might help, because
> they might bring in some of the competition we need to fix some of the
> acute distortions in the system today.
>
Until someone learns that you can sell an empty box.
Do well for a few years, then swap out the people with lower paid people,
take the money.
It will be years before they catch on.
Jim Wayne
There are a few students with IQ's around 150 who may honestly be referred
to as "severely and profoundly gifted." These students, in my experience,
are often so far ahead of their peers in most academic areas that they have
great difficulty in class. I knew one student who in effect "invented" her
own algorithms for solving fractions, including division of fractions, in
elementary school. This child did not need to have most mathematical
operations explained to her, if she became aware of them, she could work
them out on her own.
She was often in trouble in math class. The algorithms she devised were
often different from the standard ones, and the teacher could not follow
them. In about seventh grade, she finally figured out that the way she did
it wasn't going to be acceptable. She started paying just enough attention
in class to learn the "right" way, then turn in enough work to get by. She
lost all interest in mathematics, an area in which she had real ability.
She moved away, and I have never found out what happened to her, but I fear
that we might have lost a world-class mathematician.
Jim Wayne
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 Racqu...@hvc.rr.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:18:29 GMT, chudh <chud...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Qualified teachers are an essential. That is why one of
> >my proposals is semiannual testing of teachers, which would
> >expose the weak links, and direct them to remedial classes.
>
> Please allow me to ask a couple silly questions.. In NY, teachers
> must complete a Masters degree. They already have Bachelors degrees.
> They graduated high school in the "good old days" when things were
> supposed to be SO much better, passed their college courses, got their
> degrees, passed MORE graduate-level courses, and got THAT degree.
> Why, pray tell, would you think MORE testing necessary? And if they
> passed your semiannual test once, why would you figure it worth the
> time, money, and energy to test them AGAIN 6 months later?! The whole
> idea seems wasteful and frankly silly.
>
> My second question is: Supposing that a teacher DOES fail his
> semiannual testing and reports for "remedial" classes, who is taking
> his place, and who is footing the bill for his replacement and his
> remediation?
Add to this: What about the teacher who does poorly on tests but whose
students do very well on tests? Passing a test of content knowledge
tells us almost nothing about a person's ability to teach. I've known
one too many whiz bangs who couldn't teach their way out of a paperbag
to believe otherwise.
>
> > But the biggest K-12 problems, by far, are local control,
> >source of funding, buildings, curricula / tests, and textbooks.
>
> Local funding I'll go along with, but local control is an issue that a
> large portion of the public will fight you on, and rightly so, imo.
>
I have problems with the local funding part too. I spent the first
half of my teaching life working when funding was a local issue.
Local voters passed - or failed - local operating levies which
determined how much money the schools had at their disposal each
year. I grew sick to death of campaigning for funds year after year
after year. So when our infamous M5 passed, I breathed a sort of
sigh of relief. I voted against the measure - which put school funding
into the hands of the legislators - but I thought to myself, "Whew!
At least we won't have to deal with those #^@%$#%&^@$ local levies
anymore!"
Now the schools are operating on nearly 40% less than they had more
than a decade ago. In spite of the hassle, the locals were more willing
to support education than the state players.
I absolutely do not want the feds to be controlling the money that
run our local schools.
lousherry
my oil. Why is it that teachers demand parents help them with their
job? Does this mean home schooling is the way to go. If so we could
save a bundle on buildings, salaries etc.
lousherry
entitled to schooling? In some districts the illegal student population
is up around 40%.
lousherry
students. Remove and deport the illegal students (and teachers) and you
have plenty of teachers and room. After all do you want felons in your
class.
lousherry
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
> Again there is not a shortage of schools there is an overage of
> students. Remove and deport the illegal students (and teachers) and you
> have plenty of teachers and room. After all do you want felons in your
> class.
Not all the new Hispanics to our community are illegal. Indeed, the
majority of them are legal. But lets say they're all illegal. That
will still give us 750 new students a month and a shortage of schools.
lousherry
alive and well in most school districts.
Joni Rathbun
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
> Again blaming the parents. My mechanic doesn't demand I help him change
> my oil.
But if you run your car without oil and blow up the engine, do you blame
your mechanic?
Racqu...@hvc.rr.com
from..
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:32:35 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
<nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I cut out the stuff I have no argument with.
I see we agree on quite a bit then..
><Racqu...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:cjbcauotkr8kasccu...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:00:58 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
>> <nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >You don't need a masters degree to teach 2nd grade.
>>
>> Yet there are people who want to continue to test teachers who have
>> attained a masters degree in an academic subject. What sense does
>> THAT make? At least requiring a Masters (as New York does) means that
>> a teacher is going to have to continue his education.
>
>I live, and work in New York. I am a computer programmer..
>I have worked with former teachers, and others who have masters degrees, and
>doctorates. If they didn't tell you, you wouldn't guess it in a hundred
>years.
I get the feeling by reading this and what follows that you have a bit
of a thing for people with traditional educations? I agree that "book
learning" isn't the be all and end all. I can, of course, point to
programmers who have a great deal of difficulty communicating in
writiing or verbally, but it comes down, then, to individuals and
their individual characteristics. My son has a formal education only
so far as having graduated high school, but he can make computers turn
handsprings. He works as a network administrator and can learn most
anything on his own (the catch is he has to WANT to <g>)!
I, otoh, went the traditional route, but I. too, can learn anything I
set my mind to. These are, however, personal characteristics, and as
you note, they are not exactly commonly in evidence in the population
at large.
>You can continue your education in a variety of ways, going to an ivory
>tower for knowledge is only one approach.
Agreed. See above.
>I see people helplessly begging "teach me", when all they have to do is go
>to the library, or a book store. Initiative, and self-reliance are foreign to them.
>They would rather remain ignorant, until they have been force-fed.
Agreed. See above.
>Someone I knew described life as a process of jumping through hoops, in the
>hope of getting a reward. Sad, isn't it? But, the scholl system does just that.
In which case it simply reflects the way things are in "life".
>> >High School, and Jr. High teachers should be able to MAX standardized
>> >tests given to their students. Why would an Algebra teacher not be able
>> > to MAX an Algebra exam?
>>
>> They probably would, but would they "max" the english test, history,
>> and science tests which some would require they ALSO be able to do?
>>
>I'm not a teacher, but I probably could MAX any subject I chose to teach at
>the High School or lower level.
As is likely to be the case with any intelligent person, and yes, we
should expect our teachers to be intelligent. By and large they are.
There's often a difference between those who ARE teachers and those
who aspire to teach or formerly taught. What YOU or I can do may not
be a reasonable expectation for the average person or even the average
teacher. Most of the people I see posting in this forum are probably
MENSA candidates or close to it. The fact is that they represent 2%
of the population or less.
>As for the other subjects, if you don't teach it, you shouldn't have to max
>it, but a respectable score of 85 or above should be attainable.
Depending on the test. As a teacher, I can assure you that I can make
a classful of students get any grade I choose. That same is true of a
test for teachers. A reasonable test which doesn't involve a lot of
nitpicking trivia should certainly be "passable" with a decent grade.
>> >You have to know, and understand it to teach it.
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> >You don't need umpteen years in college to qualify.
>>
>> No, but you should have an idea where the material "goes from here" in
>> order to prepare your students properly.
>
>That is called understanding the concepts.
Partially. You can understand the topics you are exposed to without
having the slightest idea where they go ten years in the future.
>When I was in High School, I learned that if I understood the underlying
>concepts, I could derive mathematical proofs myself. Which meant that I
>didn't have to memorize them.
I agree, but that isn't what I meant by where things "go from here".
>> We have people on here who would require elementary teachers
>> of math to be the equivilent of college professors
>
>Nope. I don't care if you have a 5th grade education, and you're teaching
>Calculus. The bottom line is: are the students learning?
>Can you present the material in a manner which teaches?
>> Ever read Herman Rubin's stuff?
>
>Nope. I'm a consumer, not a provider.
Herman is a professor of statistics at Purdue, and his "requirements"
are that those teaching mathematics should basically be trained
mathematicians.
Racqu...@hvc.rr.com
<junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote:
>Racqu...@hvc.rr.com said:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:00:58 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
>><nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>How about changing the teachers?
>>
>>To what? Chairs? Do you think there are tons of people flocking to
>>the profession? If there WERE, don't you think the schools would
>>already be hiring the best they could get? Guys like me (physics and
>>chemistry degrees) are in the catbird seat since there just aren't too
>>many of us around. Math has a similar, but slightly less serious
>>problem.
>
>There's another issue here. Tested by whom ? Teachers are
>professionals, or at least they should be. In my profession, I will
>not be tested every two steps I make - I either get a minimum level of
>confidence from my employers, or I walk and go work elsewhere. If the
>job market for teachers was a healthy one, this kind of thing would
>cure itself: want to impose your testing standards ? Go find your own
>guinea pigs, but as far as I'm concerned, thanks but no thanks, I'm
>not going to teach in your school or in your district.
>
>So, the reason why people can get away with this kind of nonsense -
>testing, certification and what not - is because teachers are
>basically slaves. There's only one employer, and it holds a big
>monopoly.
>
>That's why I believe, in the end, that vouchers might help, because
>they might bring in some of the competition we need to fix some of the
>acute distortions in the system today.
I'll grant you the point. I don't know that you're right as to the
cure, but there is clearly a problem with the way things are currently
set up.
Magi D. Shepley
help us. When they didn't get that demand, they complained until the new
theory of the day became "parental inclusion".
The fact is, this is the way it should be... However, I only have the kids
for 6 hours a day (divided into 8 periods, plus lunch), and the parents have
them for 8 hours of sleep, and 10 more hours of awake time.
Magi
lousherry wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
chudh
which I repeat here.
" Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
1. All K-12 education FEDERALLY funded, including new
STANDARD school buildings every 30 years, 600 kids max,
15 kids per teacher. This allows a flat organization,
each school one principal and assistant, two guidance
counselors, two secretaries, 30 to 50 teachers.
2. Education funding via 1% NATIONAL real estate tax
on all residences and businesses, and 5% on all rents.
Balance of funding out of general FEDERAL revenue.
NO local extra funding or frills permitted.
3. Standard national curricula, class schedules, school
calendars, textbooks, tests, and teacher salaries, adjusted
ONLY for location and for teaching in difficult districts.
QUARTERLY simultaneous standard tests taken one subject at
a time (math for 90 minutes this week, reading next week)
in Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
Test results computer-linked to national clearinghouse.
4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas,
plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
5. Widespread use of computers for learning. Keep schools
open till 9PM, and on Saturdays for extracurriculars.
Local school boards, teacher- administrator unions,
large crowded schools, and the constant scramble for funds,
along with influence of textbook publishers and building
contractors are the cause of USA K-12 problems.
Vouchers are INSANITY because they only exacerbate the
problem by spiraling public schools DOWN (best students
leave for private schools, then their parents vote down
school levies).
These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
MUCH
better on standard tests.
Local control of education is our problem! "
Alberto Moreira wrote:
>
> Racqu...@hvc.rr.com said:
>
> >On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:00:58 GMT, "BlueOctopus"
> ><nono...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>How about changing the teachers?
> >
> >To what? Chairs? Do you think there are tons of people flocking to
> >the profession? If there WERE, don't you think the schools would
> >already be hiring the best they could get? Guys like me (physics and
> >chemistry degrees) are in the catbird seat since there just aren't too
> >many of us around. Math has a similar, but slightly less serious
> >problem.
>
> There's another issue here. Tested by whom ? Teachers are
> professionals, or at least they should be. In my profession, I will
> not be tested every two steps I make - I either get a minimum level of
> confidence from my employers, or I walk and go work elsewhere. If the
> job market for teachers was a healthy one, this kind of thing would
> cure itself: want to impose your testing standards ? Go find your own
> guinea pigs, but as far as I'm concerned, thanks but no thanks, I'm
> not going to teach in your school or in your district.
>
> So, the reason why people can get away with this kind of nonsense -
> testing, certification and what not - is because teachers are
> basically slaves. There's only one employer, and it holds a big
> monopoly.
>
> That's why I believe, in the end, that vouchers might help, because
> they might bring in some of the competition we need to fix some of the
> acute distortions in the system today.
>
> Alberto.
>
>
chudh
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, chudh wrote:
> Why don't you want the Federal Government funding K-12 education?
Because, for example, I don't believe in standardized testing or canned,
one-size-fits-all approaches or even that decoding is the reading problem we're
experiencing. IOW, I believe Bush's plan is a crock and that requiring
every district in the nation to adhere to this plan will be the ultimate
dumbing down of America.
sf
``````````````````````
On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:41:21 -0800, lousherry <lous...@lanset.com>
wrote:
sf
wrote:
>>
>REMAINDER SNIPPED
>
>There are a few students with IQ's around 150 who may honestly be referred
>to as "severely and profoundly gifted." These students, in my experience,
>are often so far ahead of their peers in most academic areas that they have
>great difficulty in class. I knew one student who in effect "invented" her
>own algorithms for solving fractions, including division of fractions, in
>elementary school. This child did not need to have most mathematical
>operations explained to her, if she became aware of them, she could work
>them out on her own.
>
>She was often in trouble in math class. The algorithms she devised were
>often different from the standard ones, and the teacher could not follow
>them. In about seventh grade, she finally figured out that the way she did
>it wasn't going to be acceptable. She started paying just enough attention
>in class to learn the "right" way, then turn in enough work to get by. She
>lost all interest in mathematics, an area in which she had real ability.
>She moved away, and I have never found out what happened to her, but I fear
>that we might have lost a world-class mathematician.
>
>Jim Wayne
>
Jim, that sounds like a real tragedy,,, but, if she had a snowballs
chance in Hell, let's believe she got into a college that acknowledged
her ability and she's someone who uses her mathematical abilities to
her advantage now.
sf
see that you're in a better district than I am. My school was built
in the '50's.... and it hasn't had a major renovation yet. I started
working in there 4 years ago - the bungalows (where I am now) were at
least 2 - 3 years old at the time. Lest anyone get any fancy ideas,
they are BASIC bungalows - no running water or bathrooms are involved.
If everything goes as planned, we will FINALLY get an elevator in the
main building this summer (among other things that should have been in
place long ago). YES. You read that correctly "an elevator". We've
been out of compliance with the ADA all this time!
<sigh>
``````````````````````````
On 30 Mar 2002 22:30:15 GMT, "Magi D. Shepley"
sf
Parents are SO good at teaching everything that they can homeschool
their own children without any recrimination. But, if a problem
arises with that beloved child in public school - suddenly parents
becomes invisible and only teachers are held accountable.
<snork>
Lou is echoing the attitude of a *hands off* parent.... "It's the
teacher's job to teach *everything* ".
``````````````````````````````
sf
wrote:
>The real question is how many of the new students are legal residents
>entitled to schooling?
.... leading up to another unsubstantiated claim.
> In some districts the illegal student population
>is up around 40%.
>
Ahhh. There it is. No evidence.
The reader has to believe - just because you said so (or they should
"look it up" because you made up the stastics).
Whatta guy/girl. Your intellect is absolutely stunning.
``````````````````````````````````````````
John
from a Jiffy Lube mechanic. It's obvious you have absolutely no clue. It
would be a dream if teaching was as easy as changing the oil in a car.
If any "parents" are to be blamed, we should blame morons like you.
Go away troll!
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source
Alan Lichtenstein
>
> How about changing the teachers?
Why?
> Right now, with tenure, and promotion for "going to school, and getting an
> advanced degree", we have teachers who basically can't teach.
Try looking at the salaries you pay teachers and you'll see why. Wit an
average national starting salary of just under $30,000, you don't have
to have more than five functioning brain cells to see that those
entering the teaching profession are not from the upper echelons of
academia. You get what you pay for. Remember that next time you vote
against a school budget.
> Give those who can teach the opportunity.
> You don't need a masters degree to teach 2nd grade.
And, pray tell, how do YOU know who can teach and who cannot?
> High School, and Jr. High teachers should be able to MAX standardized tests
> given to their students.
> Why would an Algebra teacher not be able to MAX an Algebra exam?
Reasonable expectation. Are you proposing that we raise the level of
pay so that those who graduate with degrees in subject areas will enter
teaching, rather than some other, more lucrative private sector
employment?
> You have to know, and understand it to teach it.
> You don't need umpteen years in college to qualify.
The wisdom of the great unwashed.
Alan
chudh
or the "Let's Not Teach Evolution- Teach Prayer Instead"
dimbulbs at the statehouse can do a better job of devising
curriculum, student evaluation, and school funding levels.
I think you are DEAD WRONG, and the current condition of
locally-controlled schools PROVES my contentions.
Donna Metler
messed up your car, then bringing it back to him, DEMANDING that he fix it
without paying extra for his time and materials, and BLAMING him for the
problems. Your mechanic also has the freedom to diagnose and fix what is
actually wrong, not do the same set of actions to each car. Changing the oil
when what is needed is a new air filter won't solve the problem.
Give me the control that your mechanic has, and I won't bother you again. I
don't demand any "parent involvement" from my applied music students beyond
making sure the instrument is in good repair and that sufficient sheet music
at an appropriate level is available (I do not violate copyright for my
students, nor do I let parents do so-this is part of my initial contract
when they start studying with me. If they don't like it, we part ways). It
is up to the child to practice and put in the time, not the parents. But in
applied teaching, I can tell the child who won't practice, "Look, you're
wasting my time and your parent's money. You need to decide if you want to
continue studying music, and when you're ready to do it, you have my
number".
--
Donna DeVore Metler
Music Integration/Orff Specialist
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony, 01/01/02 (22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP syndrome)
"lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3CA64BC5...@lanset.com...
Donna Metler
immigrants in my classroom (and every student in the school comes through my
doors, since I teach music). Only three elementary schools in my district
have significant hispanic populations, and two have large asian populations.
There simply are more children in many areas than schools were built for. My
district is opening about 10 new schools a year at present, to handle
growth. So far, the new schools are starting out already overcrowded.
Renovation of old buildings, or building new buildings for schools which
are in less than adequate physical shape and are too expensive to renovate
(mine is in violation of a lot of the standards expected in an elementary
school, not to mention the ADA) just isn't happening, because there isn't
enough money to build schools to house extra children and fix/replace old
ones too.
The state also set mandates on number of children per class, without even
considering what going from 30-1 to 20-1 would do to the number of needed
classrooms-an example of fixing one problem and causing others.
--
Donna DeVore Metler
Music Integration/Orff Specialist
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony, 01/01/02 (22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP syndrome)
"lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3CA64D21...@lanset.com...
Melissa
"sf" <s...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3ca6b0c4...@news.pipeline.com...
> Only 10 years ago??? Geeze, that practically yesterday. Once again I
> see that you're in a better district than I am. My school was built
> in the '50's.... and it hasn't had a major renovation yet. I started
> working in there 4 years ago - the bungalows (where I am now) were at
> least 2 - 3 years old at the time. Lest anyone get any fancy ideas,
> they are BASIC bungalows - no running water or bathrooms are involved.
>
>
> If everything goes as planned, we will FINALLY get an elevator in the
> main building this summer (among other things that should have been in
> place long ago). YES. You read that correctly "an elevator". We've
> been out of compliance with the ADA all this time!
>
> <sigh>
My old school was out of compliance too--it was built in 1927. Evidently,
they could be exempt IF they did no major renovation, something like less
than 50%. The year they fixed some stuff, they were careful not to do too
much, so they wouldn't have to add an elevator.
Melissa
chudh
What other area is more important for the welfare of
a country than a well-educated citizenry? It is obvious
that we have failed - see the Bush Approval 80% by morons.
By 2000, "Providing for the common defense" was no longer as
crucial as it once was - until Bush began creating terrorists
and threatening the globe with nuclear annihilation.
Alberto Moreira wrote:
>
> chudh <chud...@worldnet.att.net> said:
>
> >Why don't you want the Federal Government funding K-12 education?
>
> Because that's not one of the powers we the people delegated to the
> Federal Government. Who was it that said that governs best who governs
> least ?
>
> Alberto.
>
>
Jarrod
I notice you skipped merrily around answering Racqueteer and Joni's
logical objections to part of your scheme...
chudh
Jarrod wrote:
>
> >Racqu...@hvc.rr.com . . . Joni Rathbun <jrat...@orednet.org>
> >
> >> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:18:29 GMT, chudh <chud...@worldnet.att.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> I notice you skipped merrily around answering Racqueteer and Joni's
> logical objections to part of your scheme...
>
> >>
> >> >Qualified teachers are an essential. That is why one of
> >> >my proposals is semiannual testing of teachers, which would
> >> >expose the weak links, and direct them to remedial classes.
> >>
> >> Please allow me to ask a couple silly questions.. In NY, teachers
> >> must complete a Masters degree. They already have Bachelors degrees.
> >> They graduated high school in the "good old days" when things were
> >> supposed to be SO much better, passed their college courses, got their
> >> degrees, passed MORE graduate-level courses, and got THAT degree.
> >> Why, pray tell, would you think MORE testing necessary?
CH: Because new facts are discovered, history, science, sociology
evolve,
computers are invented, people get older and disinterested, etc. etc.
> >> And if they
> >> passed your semiannual test once, why would you figure it worth the
> >> time, money, and energy to test them AGAIN 6 months later?! The whole
> >> idea seems wasteful and frankly silly.
CH: See above. I will settle for ANNUAL tests.
> >> My second question is: Supposing that a teacher DOES fail his
> >> semiannual testing and reports for "remedial" classes, who is taking
> >> his place, and who is footing the bill for his replacement and his
> >> remediation?
CH: A substitute. Funded by the Federal Government, who'd fund ALL K-12.
> >Add to this: What about the teacher who does poorly on tests but whose
> >students do very well on tests? Passing a test of content knowledge
> >tells us almost nothing about a person's ability to teach. I've known
> >one too many whiz bangs who couldn't teach their way out of a paperbag
> >to believe otherwise.
CH: Scores of their of students, on a standard NATIONAL test, would be
significant compensating factors to a poor teacher test score.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, chudh wrote:
> I see. You think the Local Bozos at the Board of Education,
> or the "Let's Not Teach Evolution- Teach Prayer Instead"
> dimbulbs at the statehouse can do a better job of devising
> curriculum, student evaluation, and school funding levels.
I think just about anyone could do a better job of developing
curriculum, student evaluations and school funding schemes than
Bush and Company. We're protected from the prayer zealots. The
creationists haven't gotten very far (with the Kansas bimbos
having been ousted). The ID hoopla in Ohio (not Nevada, not Oregon,
not every state in the union) is just that so far. ANd
the locals have provided better $ for their schools than
the feds ever have or ever will. THe feds don't care. Witness all the
unfunded mandates in their current plan. They have no intention or
desire to put their money where their mouth is. None.
And finally, when idiots in Podunk make idiotic decisions, it will
only impact the folks in Podunk. When the feds (e.g. Bush in this
case) make idiotic decisions, it will impact every school in
every state in the nation.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, chudh wrote:
> > >tells us almost nothing about a person's ability to teach. I've known
> > >one too many whiz bangs who couldn't teach their way out of a paperbag
> > >to believe otherwise.
> CH: Scores of their of students, on a standard NATIONAL test, would be
> significant compensating factors to a poor teacher test score.
I see. SO every teacher whose students score average or above on national,
norm-referenced standardized tests would be safe and those whose students
fell into the bottom half would not?
sf
<mmco...@alumni.utexas.NOSPAM.net> wrote:
>
>"sf" <s...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:3ca6b0c4...@news.pipeline.com...
>>
>> If everything goes as planned, we will FINALLY get an elevator in the
>> main building this summer (among other things that should have been in
>> place long ago). YES. You read that correctly "an elevator". We've
>> been out of compliance with the ADA all this time!
>>
>> <sigh>
>
>My old school was out of compliance too--it was built in 1927. Evidently,
>they could be exempt IF they did no major renovation, something like less
>than 50%. The year they fixed some stuff, they were careful not to do too
>much, so they wouldn't have to add an elevator.
>
Thanks for the information. If it's true, that certainly explains how
my school managed to stay off the ADA radar screen all these years.
Gary Schnabl
teacher who tested poorly were brighter and did score well in spite of her
teaching, not on account of it. You continually bring up this point of
yours. All other things being equal, I'd opt for the teacher that had the
better content knowledge/experience. If I wanted a batting instructor, I'd
choose my former neighbor in Milwaukee from the 1950s, Hank Aaron, over any
batboy.
--
Gary Schnabl
(Southwest) Detroit
2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
"Joni Rathbun" <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.43.020330...@lab.oregonvos.net...
What about the teacher who does poorly on tests but whose
> students do very well on tests? Passing a test of content knowledge
Gary Schnabl
--
Gary Schnabl
(Southwest) Detroit
2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
"Jim Wayne" <jhw...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:uac3rpk...@corp.supernews.com...
> The main sufferer in the classroom with an incompetent teacher is the
> teacher. The students move on, the teacher is stuck in a dysfunctional
> classroom hour after hour, day after day. (I do not mean by this to
> downplay the problems of the students, which are real and must be
addressed,
> but simply to point out that the problems of the teacher are usually
worse.)
> I sincerely believe that most truly incompetent teachers are driven from
the
> classroom by their own incompetence.
Gary Schnabl
--
Gary Schnabl
(Southwest) Detroit
2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
"Gary Schnabl" <badB...@badBadger.com> wrote in message
news:4_Ip8.355458$uv5.30...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Melissa
Amazing, isn't it?
The ironic thing is that during the 49% renovation (or whatever the amount)
they installed wheelchair ramps at the entrances. I guess they were hoping
A.) we wouldn't have any students in wheelchairs, or B.) if we did, they
wouldn't need to get upstairs (where the 8th grade classes and the library
were located).
Melissa
SumBuny
> >
> REMAINDER SNIPPED
>
> There are a few students with IQ's around 150 who may honestly be referred
> to as "severely and profoundly gifted." These students, in my experience,
> are often so far ahead of their peers in most academic areas that they
have
> great difficulty in class. I knew one student who in effect "invented"
her
> own algorithms for solving fractions, including division of fractions, in
> elementary school. This child did not need to have most mathematical
> operations explained to her, if she became aware of them, she could work
> them out on her own.
>
> She was often in trouble in math class. The algorithms she devised were
> often different from the standard ones, and the teacher could not follow
> them. In about seventh grade, she finally figured out that the way she
did
> it wasn't going to be acceptable. She started paying just enough
attention
> in class to learn the "right" way, then turn in enough work to get by.
She
> lost all interest in mathematics, an area in which she had real ability.
> She moved away, and I have never found out what happened to her, but I
fear
> that we might have lost a world-class mathematician.
Keep your eyes open...you might see one like that on the news, with some
great discovery...
One thing about gifted students that many forget...most do not have the gift
for academics spread evenly. I.e., a student such as this-truly gifted in
math...my struggle in, say reading (could even have a learning disability
such as dyslexia). One of the most common complaints I had heard as a
student in gifted classes was, "If that kid is so smart, why is she having
problems in *my* class?" They seem to forget that "gifted" doesn't mean
"genius in all areas..." I point out students in the gifted classes with
learning disabilities, or worse...I even sometimes point out my son...12,
and gifted-but also hyperactive and autistic....with him it was, "If he is
so smart, why can't he understand how to make friends?"
Not only the profoundly gifted suffer from boredom in regular ed classes
with teachers who cannot/willnot teach to their needs as well....and a bored
kid is one who is going to "get into trouble" in your class.
Buny
SumBuny
> The real question is how many of the new students are legal residents
> is up around 40%.
"some" district...how many is "some"?
I mentioned the growth in my area....The vast majority of the students
registered as FTE are military dependants (oh, yeah...*that* must be the
source of the "illegals"...</sarcasm>)...and *those* numbers have doubled in
the last 7 years (our district's last study showed just under 30,000
students for the year 200-01) How do you explain the problem with keeping
up with the growth in the communities?
(hmmm..he is "all problems are those on welfare...all problems are because
of 'illegals'..." I wonder if it will be the "vampire military" next...)
Buny
SumBuny
"Magi D. Shepley" <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:3CA6626A...@concentric.net...
> We don't demand that they help us. They demand that they get the chance
to
> help us. When they didn't get that demand, they complained until the new
> theory of the day became "parental inclusion".
> The fact is, this is the way it should be... However, I only have the
kids
> for 6 hours a day (divided into 8 periods, plus lunch), and the parents
have
> them for 8 hours of sleep, and 10 more hours of awake time.
<grin> Know exactly what you mean....While I was an aide in a varying
exceptionalities class, we were trying to toilet train a 5 year old. He
would have his routine set in class (I would 'catch' him as soon as he came
in from the bus, go to the bathroom, and cheer any improvement--tracked with
stars, the whole kit-and-caboodle. We would go 3 routine times of the day.)
We struggled with him for weeks. Come to find out, as soon as he got home,
it was back in 'pull-ups' because mom couldn't be bothered. Finally,
grandma got involved. Within a week he was dry...even one Sunday, he
*asked* to go to the bathroom at the mall-a first-and immediately after,
wanted to call his teachers and tell us! Grandma wrote a note about it,
thanking us for the help...
But without the continuity at home...what is learned at school may not be
retained.
Even with my younger one (12 ADHD/gifted/asperger) I realized this....I
began volunteering in the school when he was 3 and in pre-k...he needed the
continuity, so I went to learn how they were teaching him at school for
those 3 hours, so I could continue it at home.
Then again, Magi-you are 'preaching to the choir' with many of us here! I
*do* wonder how active lousherry has been in his kids' schools....
Buny
sf
<mmco...@alumni.utexas.NOSPAM.net> wrote:
>> Thanks for the information. If it's true, that certainly explains how
>> my school managed to stay off the ADA radar screen all these years.
>
>
>Amazing, isn't it?
>
>The ironic thing is that during the 49% renovation (or whatever the amount)
>they installed wheelchair ramps at the entrances. I guess they were hoping
>A.) we wouldn't have any students in wheelchairs, or B.) if we did, they
>wouldn't need to get upstairs (where the 8th grade classes and the library
>were located).
>
Of course, another viewpoint is "What about service providers?" If
you have one in a wheelchair or someone who has an ambulatory problem
of any sort that requires an accomodation and s/he needs access to the
3rd floor, how will they get there?
SumBuny
"chudh" <chud...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CA66E...@worldnet.att.net...
> Why don't you want the Federal Government funding K-12 education?
One only has to look at what the federal government has done with the
IDEA...they have failed to fund it even 15%, and then say, "we will not
'throw any more money at it' until we can fix it"...when if they *had* fully
funded it in the first place, it wouldn't be "broken" as it is...
They cannot fund IDEA properly...and you want them to do this with the
school system as a whole? I, personally,don't like what I see of their
track record so far...
Buny
SumBuny
> > >> My second question is: Supposing that a teacher DOES fail his
> > >> semiannual testing and reports for "remedial" classes, who is taking
> > >> his place, and who is footing the bill for his replacement and his
> > >> remediation?
> CH: A substitute. Funded by the Federal Government, who'd fund ALL K-12.
Like they have funded IDEA? We have a hard enough time trying to get
special ed accommodations/interventions/therapies-I wouldn't want to have to
fight like this for the regular ed stuff as well...
>
> > >Add to this: What about the teacher who does poorly on tests but whose
> > >students do very well on tests? Passing a test of content knowledge
> > >tells us almost nothing about a person's ability to teach. I've known
> > >one too many whiz bangs who couldn't teach their way out of a paperbag
> > >to believe otherwise.
> CH: Scores of their of students, on a standard NATIONAL test, would be
> significant compensating factors to a poor teacher test score.
How would you handle the special ed population-not just the mentally
handicapped, but also those with physical handicaps that may have the
intelligence to pass these tests, but not the physical capabilities to do
so? What about the ones who do not have the mental abilities? What impact
is this going to have on their teachers' jobs?
Buny
SumBuny
"Gary Schnabl" <badB...@badBadger.com> wrote in message
> It's possible that those kids in your fabricated scenario who had the
> teacher who tested poorly were brighter and did score well in spite of her
> teaching, not on account of it. You continually bring up this point of
> yours. All other things being equal, I'd opt for the teacher that had the
> better content knowledge/experience. If I wanted a batting instructor, I'd
> choose my former neighbor in Milwaukee from the 1950s, Hank Aaron, over
any
> batboy.
*if* 'all things were equal'...but they are not. These days, it is hard to
tell what is a "typical class". You have students all over the special ed
spectrum (*both* ends), of physical abilities...you have children from all
types of homes (including 'none'), and all types of income.
This will work *if* you have a class full of cookie-cutter children and
cookie-cutter teachers...but we do not.
"All things being equal'....even as a 'mere parent' I see that this is not
possible....
Buny
chudh
should get a pass on semiannual or annual Tests for Teachers.
That's why I propose teacher testing at least annually.
SumBuny
> I'd say if 14 of 15 sudents scored average or above, the teacher
> should get a pass on semiannual or annual Tests for Teachers.
>
> That's why I propose teacher testing at least annually.
So the teachers who teach lower-level kids would not get this benefit? The
ones who teach special ed kids would not get this benefit? But the teachers
who get kids who are smart enough to blow-off a standardized test with
little or no effort should? (I do remember not putting much effort into the
CTBS tests when I was in school-and as an 8th grader, getting straight
12.9s, and in high school getting 13.1s). I know I didn't work/study as
hard as some of my peers did, yet my teachers should get benefits from
this-and the teachers who had to work harder with kids who were not as lucky
should not?
Something is wrong here....
Buny
Magi D. Shepley
last school was built in 1926 and hasn't been renovated since 1960 something or
other. They put in an elevator in the late 50s, early 60s... but that was it. The
elevator is broken most of the time anyway.
Our trailers don't have running water or bathrooms either.
I suspect that the only reason the school was renovated then, and in the years just
prior to that is because it used to be the "black high school".
Magi
sf wrote:
> Only 10 years ago??? Geeze, that practically yesterday. Once again I
> see that you're in a better district than I am. My school was built
> in the '50's.... and it hasn't had a major renovation yet. I started
> working in there 4 years ago - the bungalows (where I am now) were at
> least 2 - 3 years old at the time. Lest anyone get any fancy ideas,
> they are BASIC bungalows - no running water or bathrooms are involved.
>
> If everything goes as planned, we will FINALLY get an elevator in the
> main building this summer (among other things that should have been in
> place long ago). YES. You read that correctly "an elevator". We've
> been out of compliance with the ADA all this time!
>
> <sigh>
> ``````````````````````````
>
> On 30 Mar 2002 22:30:15 GMT, "Magi D. Shepley"
> <ma...@concentric.catsincyberspace.net> wrote:
>
> >My school that I teach in now was renovated 10 years ago. We're not on the list
> >to be renovated again until the 2006 budget cycle. That means that they won't
> >even CONSIDER renovation plans before 2004, and that the needed renovations
> >won't be completed until 2007/2008 (the 2006 budget is decided in Spring 2005,
> >and they would still have to get plans and contractors before they would start
> >the work...).
Remove all space cats to email.
Magi D. Shepley
February through the beginning of May, then used a cane for the rest of the
year. The following year, the end of April, I had ankle surgery. During that
whole time I wore an ankle brace. The first year, I was on the first floor, but
my students had art and computer upstairs. Thank goodness the computer teacher
was above my room and would meet my kids at the top of the stairs, and same with
the art teacher. But I was reprimanded (formally) for not taking my students to
specials. My assistant would take them to lunch for me because the cafeteria
was so far away.
The second year, I was on the second floor... but I also had a visually impaired
student who had a minor physical problem (he had trouble with stairs if there
was a crowd), so I had an elevator key: Most of the time the elevator didn't
work, so again... my assistant did double duty.
Magi
sf wrote:
Remove all space cats to email.
Malcolm Kirkpatrick
>
> Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
>
>
> These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
> And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
> MUCH better on standard tests.
>
(%20K+dist, score), where "%20K+" is the fraction of a State's
enrollment in districts over 20,000, and "score" is NAEP 8th grade
math score, is negative. Aggregation of students and resources drags
students down. Education is not a natural monopoly, and there are no
economies of scale at the delivery end of the education business.
>
MK. George Orwell wrote, in "The Road to Wigan Pier", that socialism
may be nothing more than a hypertrophied sense of order. In other
essays ("Raffles and Mrs. Blandish", "Inside the Whale") he posits
more; that power worship and power fantasies may be expressions of a
sadistic sexual impulse. Certainly dominance and control are issues
one frequently encounters in the public school/school voucher
discussion.
>
MK. Europe's top performers (TIMSS 8th grade math) are Belgium and the
Netherlands. They subsidize a parent's choice of school. Singapore and
Hong Kong outperform Japan, and they subsidize a parent's choice of
school. Students in Japan would likely do better if they spent less
time in State schools and more time in juku (tutorial schools).
>
MK. Gerard Lassibile and Lucia Navarro Gomez, ["Organization and
Efficiency of Educational Systems: some empirical findings", pg.
16, "Comparative Education", Vol. 36 #1, Feb 2000]. "Furthermore, the
regression results indicate that countries where private education is
more widespread perform significantly better than countries where it
is
more limited. The result showing the private sector to be more
efficient is similar to those found in other contexts with individual
data (see, for example, Psucharopoulos, 1987; Jiminez, et. al, 1991).
This finding should convince countries to reconsider policies that
reduce the role of the private sector in the field of education".
>
MK. ["Comparative Education", Vol. 35, #3, 1999.] "The Universal
Declaration of Human Rights (1948, Article 26, paragraph3) states
that 'Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education
that shall be given to their children.' Later, the
International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights
(1966, Article 13, paragraph 3) commits its signatories to 'respect
for the liberty of parents...to choose for their children schools,
other than those established by public authorities...and to ensure
the religious and moral education of their children in conformity
with their own convictions.' The Council of Europe (1950) has adopted
similar resolutions (Husen and Postlethwaite, 1994)." [Christine
Teelken, "Market Mechanisms in Education: school choice in The
Netherlands, England, and Scotland in a comparative perspective"
Comparative Education].
>
MK. [Postlethwaite, "The Encyclopedia of Comparative Education and
National Systems of Education"] p.138, Belgium: "Article 17 of the
Belgian Constitution lays down that: 'There shall be freedom of
education; any measure hindering such freedom shall be prohibited;
penalties of infringement shall be governed by law.' In Belgium,
therefore, the organizing power lies with various bodies, and
education
is thus peovided by the state, the province, the communes, and free
institutions--the largest of which by far is the Catholic Church.
The law provides that identical help be given to all authorized
forms of education within set limits and conventions; this 'help
system' includes the guarantee of the possibility of choosing between
religious or non-religious education. State education must remain
neutral."
>
MK. [Postlethwaite, "The Encyclopedia of Comparative Education and
National Systems of Education"]p. 333, Hong Kong "While the reliance
upon private education as a profit-making venture has become less
acceptible, the attern of dependence on management by voluntary
agencies as increased and, of the 537,000 children in primary schools
in 1985, just over 37,000 were in government schools. All kindergarten
schools are still operated privately. At the secondary level, the
picture is similar in that, of the enrollment of 401,200 up to form 5
(grade 11), only 31,400 are in government schools."
>
MK. [Postlethwaite, "The Encyclopedia of Comparative Education and
National Systems of Education"]. p. 375, Ireland: "The administration
and management of schools in Ireland involves a complex balance
of private and public interests, local and central control. Each
primary school is managed by a local board, made up of representatves
of a church, parents, and teachers. At second level, secondary schools
are private institutions. Most are owned and managed by religious
bodies."
>
MK. [Postlethwaite, "The Encyclopedia of Comparative Education and
National Systems of Education"]. p.499, Netherlands: "In the
Netherlands, the principle that parents may choose the education for
their children that reflects their own outlook is upheld. Whereas, in
1900, 59 percent of children were in public education and 31 percent
were in private education, by the 1960s, the figures had become 27 and
73 percent respectively, and in 1980, 32 and 68 percent..."
>
"The conflict in the Netherlands over denominational schooling
gave rise to a unique educational system, in which the democratic
rights of groups and individuals are in principle exceptionally
well-protected. This conflict led not only to separate schools for
different population groups, but also to complete quadripartition
of the entire educational system into public, Catholic, Protestant,
and
secular schooling."
>
"School boards are permitted the following
liberties:
(a) The freedom of foundation, that is, the freedom to found
a school of any ideological or social kind. This is tied to
quantitative and not qualitative criteria.
(b) The freedom of ideology, that is, the freedom of the competent
authority of a denominational school to administer education on the
basis of a self-determined principle of any ideological kind.
(c) The freedom of structure, that is, the freedom of the
competent
authority to deter5mine the content and method of education. This
freedom is considerably restricted by the state, which lays down
qualitative requirements."
"It should be noted, furthermore, that school boards can: (a)
found and close a school or school department; (b) appoint and dismiss
principals, teachers, and non-teaching staff; (c) admit and remove
students; (d) determine the internal organizational structure of the
school; (e) determine the way in which parents are involved
in school affairs; (f) determine the form and nature of the relations
between the school and related external institutions, including the
support structure."
>
MK. [Postlethwaite, "The Encyclopedia of Comparative Education and
National Systems of Education"]. p. 596, Singapore: "During the
1970's, about two thirds of the nation's schools were operated and
financed by the government, while most of the remaining third were
aided schools that received government financial subsidies covering
staff salaries and a large portion of development costs."
>
"If the government would make up its mind to require for every child
a good education, it might save itself the trouble of providing
one. It might leave to parents to obtain the education where and
how they pleased, and content itself with helping to pay the school
fees of the poorer classes of children, and defraying the entire
school expense of those who have no one else to pay for them."
-- J.S. Mill, On Liberty
>
http://www.schoolchoices.org (Massive site. Useful links).
>
http://www.educationpolicy.org/newsletter/EEMar99.htm#In Education,
Author Shows Hist
>
Here's E.G. West on the history of State intervention in schools
http://www.fee.org/freeman/96/9607/WEST.html
>
Here's the Frazier institute on school choice:
>
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/publications/critical_issues/1999/schoolch
oice/section_05.html
>
MK. Here's a European perspective from the Mackinac Center:
>
http://www.mackinac.org/V2000-26
>
Take care. Homeschool if you can.
Donna Metler
accommodations? It has been a significant struggle every time I have to take
a standardized test to get it accommodated so that I can take it without
having to deal with those idiotic bubble sheets, because my fine motor and
visual-spacial skills simply aren't up to the challenge. I expect that in my
district I'd be considered test excempt were I a student, not because I
can't take the test or know the content, but because it is an extra problem
and expense to have to give the test and have it scored in non-standard
forms.
--
Donna DeVore Metler
Music Integration/Orff Specialist
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony, 01/01/02 (22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP syndrome)
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:o_Jp8.11365$sf6.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
CN Haynes
"lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3CA64C55...@lanset.com...
> The real question is how many of the new students are legal residents
> entitled to schooling? In some districts the illegal student population
> is up around 40%.
>
the fact
> > that the Marine Corps, which has a major base here, is consolidating
many of
Uh... How legal do you consider the children of members of the Marine Corps?
You do understand that they are part of the US Navy, one of this country's
armed services?
Anyway, the military does pay funds to the school districts that are
impacted by their populations.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, chudh wrote:
> I'd say if 14 of 15 sudents scored average or above, the teacher
> should get a pass on semiannual or annual Tests for Teachers.
Cool, with 30 students per class, we're just about set for a free
ride.
You remind me of the politicians back home who eliminated tenure
and developed a new, improved system. WIth tenure, it's wasn't too
terribly difficult for a competent administrator to remove incompetent
teachers from the roles. WIth the new improved system, it b ecame
damned near impossible. But everyone was so happy; they'd eliminated
tenure!
Joni Rathbun
I worked in a two-story elementary school built in the 1930s. The
district bussed children with physcial handicaps to the single-level,
ADA approved elementary about five miles down the road UNTIL the
mother came along who insisted that her wheel-chair confined daughter
WOULD attend the school for which she was zoned. The district had
no choice but to install an elevator.
It was pretty funky (and still is I assume). We'd have to put the
child on the elevator, close the door, push the buttons, then run
upstairs (or down) to meet it. If more than one person tried using it, it
would stop half way up. Not that that was too terribly bad. It
was an open-air elevator. One of us would just crawl out and shimmy
up to the next floor and push the buttons again....
chudh
to pass the annual or semiannual Techer's Test.
If they can't do that, they shouldn't be teaching.
chudh
bubble sheet. And the computer could be voice-activated or
foot activated if needed.
chudh
the government from subsidizing religions.
chudh
Joni Rathbun
On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, chudh wrote:
> Read my initial post, dimwit. I specified 15 kids per classs.
My response still stands. You're thinking of Lake Woebegon, the
only place in the world where 100 of the students score above
average in standardized, norm-referenced tests. Elsewhere in
the world, it is an impossibility.
TeacherMama
So what, exactly, would be on these teacher tests? Would they be to show
competency in the materials one teaches? At the grade level one teaches?
In one's ability to teach (vs just knowing the material)? Would, say, first
grade teachers have to pass the same test as high school teachers? Would
high school teachers have to demonstrate their knowledge of the beginning
reading process? Would K teachers have to pass the Constitution test?
Exactly what would this test be testing?
chudh wrote in message <3CA7AA...@worldnet.att.net>...
Racqu...@hvc.rr.com
Kirkpatrick) wrote:
>chudh wrote:...
>>
>> Improving USA elementary / secondary education is easy;
>>
>MK. Totalitarian power fantasy deleted...
>>
>> These recommended methods are used in most other countries.
>> And those countries - Japan, Korea, Germany etc. - fare
>> MUCH better on standard tests.
>> Local control of education is our problem!
>>
>MK. The evidence is against this proposition. The correlation
>(%20K+dist, score), where "%20K+" is the fraction of a State's
>enrollment in districts over 20,000, and "score" is NAEP 8th grade
>math score, is negative. Aggregation of students and resources drags
>students down.
A conclusion which isn't unequivically justified on the basis of the
limited data from which you have drawn it. Once again you prefer to
ignore the more llikely possible conclusions in favor of the one which
fits your personal prejudice.
>MK. Europe's top performers (TIMSS 8th grade math) are Belgium and the
>Netherlands. They subsidize a parent's choice of school. Singapore and
>Hong Kong outperform Japan, and they subsidize a parent's choice of
>school. Students in Japan would likely do better if they spent less
>time in State schools and more time in juku (tutorial schools).
They also have populations, traditions, and cultures which are
different from ours, to mention just a few things which might
logically account for the differences in score. The original poster
is doing exactly what you do: He jumps to a simplistic conclusion
primarily because he chooses to attribute differences to a single
issue which fits his preconceptions. You do exactly the same thing
using exactly the same kind of superficial analysis of scant
information.
Gary Schnabl
isn't automatically a poorer teacher. Maybe Joni can dig up some statistics
to bolster her case. I haven't ever tried to check this out. There have been
instances in my own K-12 education where I or a classmate had a different
slant on a gray subject matter that a teacher with limited knowledge
wouldn't have been able to discern, due to lack of knowledge. There are also
some students clever enough to throw a "monkey wrench" into a class topic to
purposely throw a teacher off-stride.
Also some teachers may be only a page or chapter ahead of their students
in some courses which they have been drafted to teach. This is not uncommon
in difficult subjects like physics in an inner-city high school which has a
critical teacher shortage, such as in (the city of) Detroit. Such a teacher
who uses an over-reliance on teaching guides could easily be knocked out of
her/his expertise when the going gets rough for this poor-contentwise
teacher. When such teachers have their credibility questioned, it might be
very difficult to regain it.
BTW, Michigan is now offering students in these kinds of situations the
option of taking these courses online at state expense.
--
Gary Schnabl
(Southwest) Detroit
2 miles NORTH of Canada - Windsor, that is...
"SumBuny" <sum...@TAKETHISOUTcox.net> wrote in message
news:71Kp8.11367$sf6.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
lousherry
Join Rathbun wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
>
>
>>Again there is not a shortage of schools there is an overage of
>>students. Remove and deport the illegal students (and teachers) and you
>>have plenty of teachers and room. After all do you want felons in your
>>class.
>>
>
> Not all the new Hispanics to our community are illegal. Indeed, the
> majority of them are legal. But lets say they're all illegal. That
> will still give us 750 new students a month and a shortage of schools.
>
>
>
>
lousherry
the blame for your own stupidity in not checking the oil level.
Everyone want to blame some one else no one wants to accept blame.
Joni Rathbun wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
>
>
>>Again blaming the parents. My mechanic doesn't demand I help him change
>>my oil.
>>
>
> But if you run your car without oil and blow up the engine, do you blame
> your mechanic?
>
>
>
>
lousherry
footing a national standardized test is necessary. But as you say they
bar has to be raised for this test. Should you not pass the test then
you would be issued a certificate of attendance rather than a graduation
certificate. Right now the theory in education is to teach to the
lowest common denominator which equals dumb.
Joni Rathbun wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, chudh wrote:
>
>
>>Why don't you want the Federal Government funding K-12 education?
>>
>
>
> Because, for example, I don't believe in standardized testing or canned,
> one-size-fits-all approaches or even that decoding is the reading problem we're
> experiencing. IOW, I believe Bush's plan is a crock and that requiring
> every district in the nation to adhere to this plan will be the ultimate
> dumbing down of America.
>
>
>
>
>
lousherry
sf wrote:
> Sometimes I wonder what you are smoking.... you big dope.
> ``````````````````````
>
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:41:21 -0800, lousherry <lous...@lanset.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Again there is not a shortage of schools there is an overage of
>>students. Remove and deport the illegal students (and teachers) and you
>>have plenty of teachers and room. After all do you want felons in your
>>class.
>>
>>Join Rathbun wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Jim Wayne wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>One problem every district faces is that the public is not usually willing
>>>>to build empty classrooms in anticipation of future growth.
>>>>
lousherry
why are you not using the time allowed productively? You could keep the
kids in for a 10 hour day?
Albert Mortar wrote:
> "John" <ancien...@china.org> said:
>
>
>>What an idiotic comparison! The job of an educator is completely different
>>
>>from a Jiffy Lube mechanic. It's obvious you have absolutely no clue. It
>
>>would be a dream if teaching was as easy as changing the oil in a car.
>>
>>If any "parents" are to be blamed, we should blame morons like you.
>>
>
> What goes on at home is the prime responsible for the academic success
> or failure of just about every student out there. It's not a question
> of blame, it's a question of common sense. There are 168 hours in a
> week, I see my students for three of those: less than 2% of the time.
> The conclusion is obvious except for those who want to pass the buck.
>
>
> Alberto.
>
>
>
lousherry
course they not only encourage illegal students to enroll but in many
cases even provide daily bus service across the boarder.
Donna Meter wrote:
> I teach in a 100% african-american area. I don't think I have ANY illegal
> immigrants in my classroom (and every student in the school comes through my
> doors, since I teach music). Only three elementary schools in my district
> have significant hispanic populations, and two have large asian populations.
>
> There simply are more children in many areas than schools were built for. My
> district is opening about 10 new schools a year at present, to handle
> growth. So far, the new schools are starting out already overcrowded.
> Renovation of old buildings, or building new buildings for schools which
> are in less than adequate physical shape and are too expensive to renovate
> (mine is in violation of a lot of the standards expected in an elementary
> school, not to mention the ADA) just isn't happening, because there isn't
> enough money to build schools to house extra children and fix/replace old
> ones too.
>
> The state also set mandates on number of children per class, without even
> considering what going from 30-1 to 20-1 would do to the number of needed
> classrooms-an example of fixing one problem and causing others.
>
>
>
> --
> Donna DeVore Metler
> Music Integration/Orff Specialist
> Mother to Angel Brian Anthony, 01/01/02 (22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP syndrome)
>
> "lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
> news:3CA64D21...@lanset.com...
>
>>Again there is not a shortage of schools there is an overage of
>>students. Remove and deport the illegal students (and teachers) and you
>>have plenty of teachers and room. After all do you want felons in your
>>class.
>>
>>Join Rathbun wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Jim Wayne wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>One problem every district faces is that the public is not usually
>>>>
> willing
>
>>>>to build empty classrooms in anticipation of future growth. This is
>>>>
> partly
>
>>>>because such financing may result in increased tax levies, but also
>>>>
> because
>
>>>>so often they have seen predictions of growth to be inaccurate. Either
>>>>
> it
>
>>>>does not take place at the rate predicted, or it does not take place in
>>>>
> the
>
>>>>areas predicted.
>>>>
>>>>Our district is currently looking at adding around 300 students per year
>>>>
> for
>
>>>>the next 5-10 years. This is based not only on past growth, but on the
>>>>
> fact
>
>>>>that the Marine Corps, which has a major base here, is consolidating
>>>>
> many of
>
>>>>its training functions to our area, as well as adding capability. We
>>>>therefore know we will need AT LEAST 10 new classrooms a year during
>>>>
> that
>
>>>>period.
>>>>
>>>>Five years ago, our county passed a school construction bond issue that
>>>>built a new high school, a new middle school, three new elementary
>>>>
> schools,
>
>>>>and made major additions to many existing schools. That bond issue in
>>>>effect brought us up to our classroom needs AT THE TIME IT PASSED.
>>>>
> Since
>
>>>>then, we have added about 1500 students.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>That sounds more like what we add per month. At the current rate, we are
>>>opening a new school per month. By 2008 we will have added 88 new
>>>
> schools and
>
>>>expect to fall short of needs current at that time. Add the years
>>>not far behind us and the new school total is about 120. The growth
>>>situation here is something that can't be ignored, consequently, the
>>>bond measures have passed.
>>>
>>>My previous district was more like the one you describe. Took 50 years
>>>to get a bond measure passed to build facilities for the growth we'd
>>>experienced during those 50 years! But as school funding reaches crisis
>>>levels, more and more families are leaving the area. I was one who
>>>left specifically because of the state of education there. The new
>>>schools were nice but....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Several critics say, "Why didn't you ask for $5 million more when you
>>>>
> had
>
>>>>the bond issue? You knew you would need it." But 10 years ago, we did
>>>>
> ask
>
>>>>for a larger bond issue to meet anticipated needs and the voters turned
>>>>
> it
>
>>>>down. Many of the same critics then said, "You are asking too much. We
>>>>don't need that many classrooms. You can't prove absolutely that the
>>>>
> system
>
>>>>will grow that much."
>>>>
>>>>The political reality is that voters may accept arguments to tax
>>>>
> themselves
>
>>>>to meet present needs, but it is very difficult to ask them to do so for
>>>>anticipated needs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>My old district served six separate communities. Not all of them needed
>>>new schools but in order to get the bond measure passed, we had to build
>>>something in each community -whether they needed it or not. So they
>>>
> spent
>
>>>a little more than they needed to spend. But until everyone got
>>>
> something
>
>>>out of the deal, the voters wouldn't pass a thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
lousherry
chudh wrote:
> Did you ever hear of "promote the general welfare"?
>
> What other area is more important for the welfare of
> a country than a well-educated citizenry? It is obvious
> that we have failed - see the Bush Approval 80% by morons.
>
> By 2000, "Providing for the common defense" was no longer as
> crucial as it once was - until Bush began creating terrorists
> and threatening the globe with nuclear annihilation.
>
>
> Alberto Moreira wrote:
>
>>chudh <chud...@worldnet.att.net> said:
>>
>>
>>>Why don't you want the Federal Government funding K-12 education?
>>>
>>Because that's not one of the powers we the people delegated to the
>>Federal Government. Who was it that said that governs best who governs
>>least ?
>>
>>Alberto.
>>
>>
>>
lousherry
basket weaving or like subjects taken by correspondence from Ma Hauns
screen door and masters degree company.
chudh wrote:
> I NEVER dodge questions that make sense. See my embedded answers.
>
> Jarrod wrote:
>
>>>Racqu...@hvc.rr.com . . . Joni Rathbun <jrat...@orednet.org>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:18:29 GMT, chudh <chud...@worldnet.att.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>I notice you skipped merrily around answering Racqueteer and Joni's
>>logical objections to part of your scheme...
>>
>>
>>>>>Qualified teachers are an essential. That is why one of
>>>>>my proposals is semiannual testing of teachers, which would
>>>>>expose the weak links, and direct them to remedial classes.
>>>>>
>>>>Please allow me to ask a couple silly questions.. In NY, teachers
>>>>must complete a Masters degree. They already have Bachelors degrees.
>>>>They graduated high school in the "good old days" when things were
>>>>supposed to be SO much better, passed their college courses, got their
>>>>degrees, passed MORE graduate-level courses, and got THAT degree.
>>>>Why, pray tell, would you think MORE testing necessary?
>>>>
> CH: Because new facts are discovered, history, science, sociology
> evolve,
> computers are invented, people get older and disinterested, etc. etc.
>
>
>>>> And if they
>>>>passed your semiannual test once, why would you figure it worth the
>>>>time, money, and energy to test them AGAIN 6 months later?! The whole
>>>>idea seems wasteful and frankly silly.
>>>>
> CH: See above. I will settle for ANNUAL tests.
>
>
>>>>My second question is: Supposing that a teacher DOES fail his
>>>>semiannual testing and reports for "remedial" classes, who is taking
>>>>his place, and who is footing the bill for his replacement and his
>>>>remediation?
>>>>
> CH: A substitute. Funded by the Federal Government, who'd fund ALL K-12.
>
>
>>>Add to this: What about the teacher who does poorly on tests but whose
>>>students do very well on tests? Passing a test of content knowledge
>>>tells us almost nothing about a person's ability to teach. I've known
>>>one too many whiz bangs who couldn't teach their way out of a paperbag
>>>to believe otherwise.
>>>
> CH: Scores of their of students, on a standard NATIONAL test, would be
> significant compensating factors to a poor teacher test score.
>
>>>>> But the biggest K-12 problems, by far, are local control,
>>>>>source of funding, buildings, curricula / tests, and textbooks.
>>>>>
>>>>Local funding I'll go along with, but local control is an issue that a
>>>>large portion of the public will fight you on, and rightly so, imo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I have problems with the local funding part too. I spent the first
>>>half of my teaching life working when funding was a local issue.
>>>Local voters passed - or failed - local operating levies which
>>>determined how much money the schools had at their disposal each
>>>year. I grew sick to death of campaigning for funds year after year
>>>after year. So when our infamous M5 passed, I breathed a sort of
>>>sigh of relief. I voted against the measure - which put school funding
>>>into the hands of the legislators - but I thought to myself, "Whew!
>>>At least we won't have to deal with those #^@%$#%&^@$ local levies
>>>anymore!"
>>>
>>>Now the schools are operating on nearly 40% less than they had more
>>>than a decade ago. In spite of the hassle, the locals were more willing
>>>to support education than the state players.
>>>
>>>I absolutely do not want the feds to be controlling the money that
>>>run our local schools.
>>>
>>>
lousherry
in that case let me assure you that they belong there, even if you don't
think so.
SumBuny wrote:
> "lousherry" <lous...@lanset.com> wrote in message
> news:3CA64C55...@lanset.com...
>
>>The real question is how many of the new students are legal residents
>>entitled to schooling? In some districts the illegal student population
>>is up around 40%.
>>
>
>
> "some" district...how many is "some"?
>
> I mentioned the growth in my area....The vast majority of the students
> registered as FTE are military dependants (oh, yeah...*that* must be the
> source of the "illegals"...</sarcasm>)...and *those* numbers have doubled in
> the last 7 years (our district's last study showed just under 30,000
> students for the year 200-01) How do you explain the problem with keeping
> up with the growth in the communities?
>
> (hmmm..he is "all problems are those on welfare...all problems are because
> of 'illegals'..." I wonder if it will be the "vampire military" next...)
>
> Buny
>
>
>
chudh
Somebody asked what I would propose FOR TEACHERS WHOSE STUDENTS
SCORED ABOVE AVERAGE. So I EXPLAINED what I would do.
It was not my postulate initially.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
> School districts rely on ADA to fund their salaries and perks. Of
> course they not only encourage illegal students to enroll but in many
> cases even provide daily bus service across the boarder.
Do you even know what the ADA is? In what cereal box did you find
your PhD?
Donna Metler>
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
> You keep forgetting we are one nation, to put all students on equal
> footing a national standardized test is necessary. But as you say they
> bar has to be raised for this test. Should you not pass the test then
> you would be issued a certificate of attendance rather than a graduation
> certificate. Right now the theory in education is to teach to the
> lowest common denominator which equals dumb.
RIght now the theory is to teach to the test which equals dumb tho
I am familiar with state tests you would flunk.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, lousherry wrote:
> Problem is well stated! You would blame the mechanic rather than accept
> the blame for your own stupidity in not checking the oil level.
> Everyone want to blame some one else no one wants to accept blame.
LOL. No, that's the theory you put forth in your original post. Seems
YOU want to backtrack now. What, you mean you don't blame the mechanic
when you run the car without oil? What a surprise!
chudh
post on newsgroups alt.education etc.
Here is what it said about testing:
4. Semiannual testing of TEACHERS in these four areas:
Math, Reading/ English. Science, and Social Studies.
plus administrative areas of teaching methods / discipline.
Teacher salaries determined by a combination of seniority
and test scores. The highest-scoring teachers are allowed
to select WHERE they teach, with $10,000 annual bonuses
for teaching in the worst 25% of schools.
Now answering your questions:
TeacherMama wrote:
>
> OK, I've missed most of this thread, and can't go back to the original now.
> So what, exactly, would be on these teacher tests?
CH: See 4. above.
> Would they be to show competency in the materials one teaches?
CH: Yes
>
At the grade level one teaches?
CH: Yes
> In one's ability to teach (vs just knowing the material)?
CH: Yes. see 4. above.
> Would, say, first grade teachers have to pass the same test
>as high school teachers?
C No. For first grade teachers, obviously test emphasis would
be on teaching skills such as getting laggards to catch up in
reading skills to those who had been thru nursery school,
pre-pre-school, preschool, kindergarten etc.; and skills to
acclimate students to the academic environment into which they
are moving; and "best techniques" for teaching arithmetic, etc.
> Would high school teachers have to demonstrate their knowledge
>of the beginning reading process?
CH: No. Why should they? They also would not need to demonstrate
knowledge of the Black-Scholes model for stock option evaluation.
> Would K teachers have to pass the Constitution test?
CH: Probably. That knowladge pertains to all grades.
> Exactly what would this test be testing?
CH: See 4. above
chudh
of the phrase "general welfare" is.
If you are as dumb as Bush, you think it is the Defense budget.
(The Generals' welfare).
Grant Martin
professional teachers. You all seem to think you can program a child like a
computer with knowledge and skills. In the real world this is not so.
A teacher is only as good as the whinging parent at the gate ready to twist
the knife deeper each day. No amount of testing a teacher will improve their
skills but rather getting up to date research into teachers at school level
at an affordable price. I still see teachers adopting attitudes more alike
burniing withces ath the stake rather than working with parents and child.
Would you take your child to a Doctor who still practices medicine 50 to 100
years ago? That's what our politicians and system is keeping us at. Don't
blame the poor educator at the chalkface level for the pathetic decisions
made for a system set up to fail.
P_______ O__
"Joni Rathbun" <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.43.02033...@lab.oregonvos.net...
Herman Rubin
>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:06:25 -0500, "Jim Wayne" <jhw...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>>REMAINDER SNIPPED
>>There are a few students with IQ's around 150 who may honestly be referred
>>to as "severely and profoundly gifted." These students, in my experience,
>>are often so far ahead of their peers in most academic areas that they have
>>great difficulty in class. I knew one student who in effect "invented" her
>>own algorithms for solving fractions, including division of fractions, in
>>elementary school. This child did not need to have most mathematical
>>operations explained to her, if she became aware of them, she could work
>>them out on her own.
>>She was often in trouble in math class. The algorithms she devised were
>>often different from the standard ones, and the teacher could not follow
>>them. In about seventh grade, she finally figured out that the way she did
>>it wasn't going to be acceptable. She started paying just enough attention
>>in class to learn the "right" way, then turn in enough work to get by. She
>>lost all interest in mathematics, an area in which she had real ability.
>>She moved away, and I have never found out what happened to her, but I fear
>>that we might have lost a world-class mathematician.
>>Jim Wayne
>Jim, that sounds like a real tragedy,,, but, if she had a snowballs
>chance in Hell, let's believe she got into a college that acknowledged
>her ability and she's someone who uses her mathematical abilities to
>her advantage now.
The problem is that she had already lost interest, and now
had to learn mathematics starting at the college level. It
CAN be done, but how would anyone know that mathematical
ability was present? The counselors are totally unable to
recognize this, as we do not really know how to test for
such an ability without giving the person mathematical
concepts early. That she showed as much as she did is very
unusual, and that COULD be recognized, but not by the great
bulk of today's teachers.
We can teach mathematical concepts to primary school
children, but not by teaching them the mechanics of
arithmetic. However, the current teachers seem unable
to understand them, and most of them would not be able
to manage. I suspect the same is true with any solid
subject; learning how to compute answers does not seem
to help learning concepts, and does seem to hinder.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Herman Rubin
>Parents are SO good at teaching everything that they can homeschool
>their own children without any recrimination. But, if a problem
>arises with that beloved child in public school - suddenly parents
>becomes invisible and only teachers are held accountable.
There WAS a time when the parents were not even supposed to
ask a child what was being taught in class, lest the child
be "confused" by being told other than what the teacher said.
Do you know what happens when a parent complains about how
a child is being taught? What happens if a child knows the
subject? When are we going to make the schools teach to the
level of the individual child, and not treat them as if they
all have essentially the same abilities?
Parents can select the material to teach their children
without having to do so from a list approved by the schools
of education, or by those pushing their religious or
political beliefs. Also, it seems that home schooled
children need only half as much classwork as children
are now made to take in the public schools.