who is more prog

[scott alberts]

as i have stated before. the original u.k. album was the most influencial to modern prog a JW was the voice. i was not impressed with the OA album at all and lost alot of ground. AFJP is currently more prog than OA but it all really depends on the new album, can do! I'm just hoping that they are wanting to carry on with prog tradition and not try to reach to general classic rock. Asia to me has always been in the grey area however the song free really opened my eyes!!! The album was good but that song opened a window of my future hopes for the band. JP ask me what song i would want to hear on the silent nation tour but seemed disapointed that i wanted that song. i don't think they played it at all on that tour. The big question is why did AFJP change guitarist, creative differences? If ASIA could have made their follow up album inspired by bill bruford's U.K. influence ASIA could have changed their entire history. GPS was very prog, loved it's
new direction.

ANYONE see it my way?

[Josh]

I believe, given the history of the band members, that the OA seems to
be more prog, especially with the Phoenix album. I know Asia made some
proggy recordings with John Payne: "Free," "The Day Before The War,"
and so on.

AFJP is more of an AOR band with a progressive feel, but not totally
prog. GPS was more or less Asia without Geoff Downes. Ryo Okumoto did
a hell of a job in the keyboard department on WINDOW TO THE SOUL. The
arrangements were Asia-like but a little more progressive and a little
more guitar driven, even though there were plenty of great keyboard
spots and solos.

I guess it all just comes down to personal opinions. I believe both
Asias are making some of the same music, it's just that AFJP features
more rock guitar than OA, pretty much what they did from AQUA to
SILENT NATION.

Also, reason AFJP got a different guitarist is because it wasn't able
to work logistically, with Guthrie being in England and the rest of
the band working in America. It's not bad, because Guthrie's still a
member of GPS. I will miss him in Asia, though. SILENT NATION was a
great album for his playing and it was even better on GPS's WINDOW TO
THE SOUL.

[Jeri Unselt]

Hey Scott,

John explains why Guthrie is not with Asia FJP on the John Payne fancast.  http://www.johnpaynefancast.net     It's the special edition episode.

Jeri

[Claudio Momberg]

I never thought any incarnation of Asia as a "progressive rock band", in fact I just hear very good pop/rock songs with a few prog elements, The only 100% progressive element of the original band is the members' background in my opinion, and perhaps the sounds of the instruments, but it was never prog. Of course there are certain songs that have some proggy direction (Wildest Dreams, After the War) but they're just very good pop/rock songs with a few proggy elements. imho, to say OA is a prog band, is no different to say Journey was a prog band (I mean the time when Steve Perry was the singer) Just some great pop/rock songs with a few prog elements.

The first 100% progrock songs they did could be the ones on Arena (Day Before the War, U Bring me Down) plus also Free, and several bits on the Silent Nation album.

Phoenix might have some prog elements, specially in the instrumental bits, but they all sound like leftovers from Alpha to my ears, and Alpha is my least favorite OA album. as I've said, the real gem on the Phoenix album is all of Steve Howe's brilliant contributions (both as a player and as a writer). If not for him, it would have been a disaster (imho) If OA does another album, I hope they realize we are not in 1984 anymore.

I think both versions of the band (OA and AFJP) have the same "amount" of proggy elements, but AFJP is the only one that has "100% prog rock songs"

 

I would think an interesting discussion between OA and AFJP is what band is more pop and what band is more rock :-)

 

Cheers and long live debate!!! :-)

 

Claudio

[crusader]

Josh, I have to disagree a bit here.

While I think both bands are both AOR and prog, AFJP is the more prog
oriented. The OA is more formulaic in their approach and basically
sticks with the same sound, while each AFJP album is different
soundwise than the other and have longer compositions. Just take ARENA
for example, do you think OA will ever make an album like that ? ARENA
has Latin, Jazz fusion, heavy metal, and even reggae! And songs like
"The Day Before The War" (almost 9 minutes) and "U Bring Me Down" (7
minutes plus) are prog as are their shorter ones, "Arena" with its
Latin jazz feel and "Two Sides of the Moon" which goes from pop to
classical to fusion to reggae all in the span of 4 minutes or so. And,
as you point out, AURA has "Free" but it also has "Kings of the Day",
"Awake" and "You are the Stanger", the latter song would have fit well
in the ARENA album. And SILENT NATION has "Midnight", "Blue Moon
Monday" and "Gone Too Far". AQUA has "Someday", "A Far Cry" and I
would put "Who Will Stop the Rain" and "Voice of Reason". ARIA is
probably the less prog, more AOR of the JP era, but even that album
has a lot of orchestration among its songs.

Meanwhile, the output of OA leans heavily towards pop. Their more
"prog" album will always be the first one with "Time Again", "Wildest
Dreams", "Without You", and "Sole Survivor" being the more prog
oriented. ALPHA was basically a pop rock record with "Midnight Sun"
and "Open Your Eyes" as the more prog oriented. And ASTRA was
basically and all out AOR rock album with "Rock and Roll Dream" and
perhaps, the anthemic "Voice of America" closest to prog. PHOENIX is
probably a step in the right direction for OA as finally we have
longer compositions like "Parallel Worlds" (the best song they've ever
recorded if you ask me, but many disagree), but still PHOENIX has the
same old sound and sticks with the same formula of the 80's. Overall,
I don't see OA taking the risks that AFJP has taken by going to a
different sound on each album and incorporating other influences and
writing longer songs. That's my opinion, but, as you've stated,
everyone sees it differently. Best regards,

Gerardo (Crusader)

> > ANYONE see it my way?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Henry Potts]

Claudio Momberg <sonoac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...] If OA does another album,

OA are currently working on their second album since the reunion. Palmer recently said they were about halfway through it. Looks like Wetton/Downes will remain the dominant songwriters.

I agree about Howe and _Phoenix_.

Henry

[Jeff Matheus]

Gerardo,
 
I agree with almost everything you've said here (except the bit about "Phoenix" having anything of value on it :  ) To me what make AFJP so superior to OA is that there has always been FAR more musical variety on their albums. Sometimes the music was more proggy, sometimes more mellow and dreamy, sometimes bordering on hard rock & metal  - and that's what makes those Payne/Downes Asia albums work so well. They stand up to, and even become better with repeated listens. I've always admired artists like Alan Parsons, the Moody Blues, Pendragon, etc., who can put a variety of moods and styles on a single album but still mantain their distinctive identities.  John Payne excells in a musicial situation like like becuase he has a voice that can adapt to a lot of differrent styles and express a variety of human emotions...To me, OA's songs, arrangements, and tempoes basically all sounded the same, and the songs are almost interchangable in concert. Long before Payne joined I felt that Asia would benefit from a more dynamic singer than John Wetton. Sorry to the JW fans out there, but to me he is a vocal "one trick pony". Whether he's singing a biting anti-was lyric or a sweet love song, his voice never changes in tone or expression. To me, one you've heard Wetton sing one or two songs, you've heard everything he has to offer vocally. John Payne, on the other hand, still manages to surprise me with each new album and concert I've seen.   
 
Thats all for now,
 
JEFF MATHEUS 
 
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:46:29 -0700
> Subject: [JPM] Re: who is more prog
> From: crusa...@yahoo.com
> To: jpm...@googlegroups.com

[Mauro SIMOES]

Mister Jeff ...




Sorry !




But ....




Yes ... Payne have a beauty and powerful voice !




But, the Wetton's voice .... oh, boy !!




As far as i can comprehend ... is very, very adapt to all around sounds !




And, by the way, Wetton have a perfect keys/attuned for progressive and A.O.R./pop rock style !




Please, remember U.K., King Crimson, Steve Hackett's Band  ....no comments !!




However, John Payne have a incredible  voice for hard rock and metal style ... and sincerely ...




For Brazil's public-opinion ... he/Payne,   in the stage, have a strength/charisma !!!!!




And when i say about this ... i say  for many Asia's brazilians fans !!






Valeu !!






Thanks for all !!




Asia 4EVER !!

---

From: jeffm...@hotmail.com
To: jpm...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [JPM] Re: who is more prog

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:05:10 +0000

> </html

---

Você sabia que pode utilizar o Messenger de qualquer tipo de celular? Saiba mais.

[Marc Catchpole]

The strength of Howe's contribution to Pheonix gives me hope for the potential new Yes album the guys are beginning to plan for 2010, as Squire revealed on Planet Rock radio in the uk last night.

Agree with comments about the rest of it. Parallel Worlds is good, I grant.

Sent from my iPhone

[crusader]

I actually agree with you 100%, Jeff!

But just to clarify on PHOENIX, in previous posts I have stated that
PHOENIX to me is a boring cd just saved by the fact that Steve Howe
plays on it, but I actually think that "Parallel Worlds" is proggy and
the couple SH songs and the cover of "Orchard of Mines" are the best
songs on that cd. The rest is boring and forgettable to me. That being
said, I agree 100% with your post and with Claudio's post too. Best
regards,

Gerardo (Crusader)

On Oct 16, 11:05 am, Jeff Matheus <jeffmath...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gerardo,
>
> I agree with almost everything you've said here (except the bit about "Phoenix" having anything of value on it :  ) To me what make AFJP so superior to OA is that there has always been FAR more musical variety on their albums. Sometimes the music was more proggy, sometimes more mellow and dreamy, sometimes bordering on hard rock & metal  - and that's what makes those Payne/Downes Asia albums work so well. They stand up to, and even become better with repeated listens. I've always admired artists like Alan Parsons, the Moody Blues, Pendragon, etc., who can put a variety of moods and styles on a single album but still mantain their distinctive identities.  John Payne excells in a musicial situation like like becuase he has a voice that can adapt to a lot of differrent styles and express a variety of human emotions...To me, OA's songs, arrangements, and tempoes basically all sounded the same, and the songs are almost interchangable in concert. Long before Payne joined I felt that Asia would benefit from a more dynamic singer than John Wetton. Sorry to the JW fans out there, but to me he is a vocal "one trick pony". Whether he's singing a biting anti-was lyric or a sweet love song, his voice never changes in tone or expression. To me, one you've heard Wetton sing one or two songs, you've heard everything he has to offer vocally. John Payne, on the other hand, still manages to surprise me with each new album and concert I've seen.  
>
> Thats all for now,
>
> JEFF MATHEUS
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:46:29 -0700
> > Subject: [JPM] Re: who is more prog

> > From: crusader...@yahoo.com

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Mike Webb]

That's an interesting point. I've always thought Wetton had one of my
favorite voices in rock, and one thing that always jumped out at me is
that his voice harmonizes with itself extraordinarily well. I'd put him
up there with Steve Perry and Brad Delp on the whole "layered wall of
self-harmony" thing. Off the top of my head I can't think of anybody
else who sounds as good (and powerful) at that.

But to be completely fair, Wetton is a bit lacking in vocal diversity.
He uses his voice more like an instrument in an orchestra than a
soloist. I actually like that approach, which is probably part of why I
always liked Wetton's voice. But I can also appreciate John Payne's
completely different, very expressive approach. It was such a profoundly
different direction for Asia.

Wetton-style singers often get crapped on by pop media (look at Rolling
Stone Magazine's lists of their favorite singers and most of them
usually have horrendous tone and technique, and a tendency to treat
being on-key like a frivolous formality). I have to wonder if that plays
any role in Wetton's overinflated ego, i.e., overcompensating for public
perception. But then, John Payne isn't exactly out there topping charts
these days either, yet he seems a much more reasonable character. Go figure.

On 10/16/2009 8:05 AM, Jeff Matheus wrote:
> Sorry to the JW fans out there, but to me he is a vocal "one trick
> pony". Whether he's singing a biting anti-was lyric or a sweet love
> song, his voice never changes in tone or expression. To me, one you've
> heard Wetton sing one or two songs, you've heard everything he has to
> offer vocally. John Payne, on the other hand, still manages to surprise
> me with each new album and concert I've seen.

--
=-= Mike Webb =-=
Oakland, CA

mr...@cornell.edu
nightVzn (IM)
http://nightvzn.livejournal.com/