Message from discussion The purpose and tone of the bug squad list
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Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:17:04 +0200
From: Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com>
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Subject: Re: The purpose and tone of the bug squad list
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I wanted to leave my comments at that and not respond to this thread
anymore, but since you are now attacking Klas AND spinning it as if it
was about some not-accepted-code, I will have to set some things straight.
This is of course in parts about not-accepted-code, about code that
would have solved serious bugs in Joomla, that all the normal people on
this list acknowledged as serious priority 1 issues, but which Andrew
calls an "anomaly" after not being able to ignore it any longer. But
this is also about style of management or better said about lack of
management. There is no guidance where we are going, there is no planned
testing, no list of high priority issues that we want to solve. I
personally am still not sure if the ACL system got a real, proper
testing and in fact does work as expected.
This is about the feeling of being used and then either mobbed out or
kicked out when you are not convenient anymore. Just a list of people in
historical order: Enno, Wilco, Anthony, Gergo, Ercan, Alex, me
This is also about the future planning of Joomla or, again, the lack of
it. I've brought this issue up numerous times both in private and in
public towards the PLT and all the members of the PLT that I talked to
agreed, that most likely they would take some time off from all this
after 1.6 is released. Considering that we have said to release 1.7 six
months after 1.6 and hoping that we don't want to name a bugfix-release
of 1.6 "1.7", we would need some other form of preparation for 1.7,
people that manage this, people that motivate developers to work on a
particular issue and most important of all, a general vision for said
release. I've also mentioned this before that we need to think about 1.8
at the same time for features and issues that need more than 6 months.
The only response that I got from the PLT so far was being redirected to
one particular member of the PLT. This member of the PLT however has not
been responding to Skype, IRC, GTalk or mail contact from numerous
people (including me) for the last 3 months.
This is in general about the lack of communication from the PLT, which
has been hinting on a few occasions about an RC (now again in regards to
the template overrides "the deadline is RC") but has not been describing
what still needs to be done to get there and when it expects that to
happen. This is about the PLT saying they want community involvement,
but when it is actually about people contributing innovation or anything
more than doing basic coding work, their opinions and work are either
ignored, contradicted or plainly refused. I was asked by Andrew a few
weeks ago if I didn't want to work on an upgrade path for Joomla from
1.5 to 1.6. Apparently no one took a look at the absolut great work that
Matias Aguirre has been doing with jUpgrade, which he offered to the
project quite some time ago and which is most likely the easiest way to
upgrade there is. Considering where we are with development, it is
frightening that there has been absolutely no work done for such an
So please stop spinning this to be an issue of my hurt coding-ego.
Am 09.08.2010 01:51, schrieb elin:
> No Klas, we are not talking about "public discussion of problems."
> That's what this thread is. If you want to discuss a serious issue
> spend a few hours writing a post the way I did and then start a new
> Rather, we are talking about rude, off topic and similar posts. I
> really think that empowering people to take other people's threads off
> topic is inappropriate and actually reinforces negative behavior by
> rewarding it with attention. And it is a vicious cycle of broken
> windows were other people begin to think having temper tantrums or
> behaving rudely or thread hijacking is appropriate or even worse how
> to get your way. It silences all the other people who do not want to
> participate in an environment where such behavior seems to be
> I think we all understand that people feel disappointed when their
> code isn't accepted; we have all been there. Just like we are all
> frustrated by commits that aren't tested and break our work or change
> the UI without notice.
> The question is: when that happens do you act as part of a
> collaborative community of people trying to produce the best software
> possible or do you have a temper tantrum? I don't know if you have
> ever tried to publish an article or book, but it's the same way. If
> you are going to have a fit every time someone asks you to improve
> your work or even if your work is rejected or you get a bad review,
> you are not going to survive as a writer. I've written four books, and
> it is still hard to take it, but you vent in the privacy of your own
> home or office or maybe with a friend, then you move on and respond
> professionally. The same goes for software. Submit unfinished or
> buggy or incorrectly formatted or not Joomla! MVC code or even just
> improvable code or code without tests or something that has to wait
> for 1.7, don't act entitled to have it committed or assume that it is
> other people's jobs to fix it.
> Don't get your question answered after a week, do what I do which is
> post a follow up. Act in a way that is not self-defeating and that you
> are not going to be embarrassed to reread in a year or two.
> The research on bad behavior says that the impact on the witnesses is
> almost as severe as that on the victims. So the fact that people
> choose not to directly deal with people with whom they have problems
> and instead engage in aggressive, passive aggressive, or sarcastic
> posting on list or in the tracker harms not just the people who they
> are attacking but all of us. It makes this a bad environment and
> chases people away. It is ultimately self-harming as well as harming
> to the community of contributors.
> It's my personal resolution never to respond in anger to a JBS thread
> and never to take a thread off topic, and I hope you will consider the
> On Aug 8, 5:30 pm, klas berliÄ <klas.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and
>> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If
>> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters
>> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what
>> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a
>> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
>> 2010/8/8 elin <elin.war...@gmail.com>
>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
>>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
>>> of us ignoring.
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