The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
3. Announcements related to JBS.
In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
"broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
with any more because of their repeated behavior.
I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
of us ignoring.
Dear Elin, I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you and an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that are misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and the rule to respond promptly? http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first place.
> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of > "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest > of us ignoring.
As you are actually one of the people who has had the assigned job of
managing the lists I'd be very interested in knowing how you have
managed improper postings Andrew, Mark and Ian are the designated
leads of the bug squad and have ultimate responsible for managing it.
If you would like to ask them a question, again I suggest you ask them
personally. This list is not the place for acting out personal
grudges or dramas. Doing so interferes with the morale and quality of
life for the rest of us, something I hope you will consider. You may
also want to consider whether tone of some posts on the list is
actually discouraging responses.
I assume you are not trying to justify temper tantrums or bad behavior
on the basis that someone didn't get an immediate response to a
question to a public mailing list. Heaven knows most of mine are never
answered, but that's just life in a collaborative environment. We are
all allowed time off and none of us are allowed to be abusive.
Elin
On Aug 8, 2:46 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Dear Elin,
> I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you and
> an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that are
> misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and the
> rule to respond promptly?http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html > Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because
> they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first place.
> Hannes
> Am 08.08.2010 14:59, schrieb elin:
> > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> > 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> > In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
> > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
> > "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
> > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> > In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
> > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
> > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
> > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> > I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
> > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
> > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
> > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
> > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
> > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
> > of us ignoring.
Also, just to follow up on the other question, when I see rude
behavior on list I ignore it rather than respond because i consider it
irrelevant and off topic. If you review threads in recent weeks you
will see a number of instances where other people followed the same
policy and remained focused on the topic at hand despite attempts,
deliberate or otherwise, to distract from the issue being discussed
with irrelevant or ad hominem posts. This works well at getting
threads back on topic and problems resolved but it should unneccessary
to have to even think about whether or not to post "please stop" or
"you are being inappropriate" repeatedly.
Elin
On Aug 8, 3:24 pm, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As you are actually one of the people who has had the assigned job of
> managing the lists I'd be very interested in knowing how you have
> managed improper postings Andrew, Mark and Ian are the designated
> leads of the bug squad and have ultimate responsible for managing it.
> If you would like to ask them a question, again I suggest you ask them
> personally. This list is not the place for acting out personal
> grudges or dramas. Doing so interferes with the morale and quality of
> life for the rest of us, something I hope you will consider. You may
> also want to consider whether tone of some posts on the list is
> actually discouraging responses.
> I assume you are not trying to justify temper tantrums or bad behavior
> on the basis that someone didn't get an immediate response to a
> question to a public mailing list. Heaven knows most of mine are never
> answered, but that's just life in a collaborative environment. We are
> all allowed time off and none of us are allowed to be abusive.
> Elin
> On Aug 8, 2:46 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Elin,
> > I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you and
> > an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that are
> > misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and the
> > rule to respond promptly?http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html > > Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because
> > they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first place.
> > Hannes
> > Am 08.08.2010 14:59, schrieb elin:
> > > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> > > 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> > > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> > > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> > > In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> > > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> > > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
> > > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
> > > "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > > > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
> > > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> > > In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> > > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
> > > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> > > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
> > > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
> > > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> > > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> > > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> > > I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
> > > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
> > > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
> > > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
> > > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> > > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> > > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
> > > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
> > > of us ignoring.
I would extend these comments to the tracker issues as well. The "tense-ness" around a small minority of issues is really spoiling the ointment so to speak and while I've generally got a fairly long fuse, I'm growing a little wearing of wondering whether "this is going to be yet another Vitamin B day" (simple translation to that is "high stress dealing with people issues").
So, I completely agree. Let's have everyone press the reset button (and for the Lost fans, type in 4-8-15-16-23-42-Return), move on and leave it at that so that we can all enjoy getting 1.6 out together.
> Also, just to follow up on the other question, when I see rude > behavior on list I ignore it rather than respond because i consider it > irrelevant and off topic. If you review threads in recent weeks you > will see a number of instances where other people followed the same > policy and remained focused on the topic at hand despite attempts, > deliberate or otherwise, to distract from the issue being discussed > with irrelevant or ad hominem posts. This works well at getting > threads back on topic and problems resolved but it should unneccessary > to have to even think about whether or not to post "please stop" or > "you are being inappropriate" repeatedly.
> Elin
> On Aug 8, 3:24 pm, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hannes,
>> As you are actually one of the people who has had the assigned job of >> managing the lists I'd be very interested in knowing how you have >> managed improper postings Andrew, Mark and Ian are the designated >> leads of the bug squad and have ultimate responsible for managing it. >> If you would like to ask them a question, again I suggest you ask them >> personally. This list is not the place for acting out personal >> grudges or dramas. Doing so interferes with the morale and quality of >> life for the rest of us, something I hope you will consider. You may >> also want to consider whether tone of some posts on the list is >> actually discouraging responses.
>> I assume you are not trying to justify temper tantrums or bad behavior >> on the basis that someone didn't get an immediate response to a >> question to a public mailing list. Heaven knows most of mine are never >> answered, but that's just life in a collaborative environment. We are >> all allowed time off and none of us are allowed to be abusive.
>> Elin
>> On Aug 8, 2:46 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> > Dear Elin, >> > I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you and >> > an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that are >> > misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and the >> > rule to respond promptly?http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html >> > Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because >> > they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first place.
>> > Hannes
>> > Am 08.08.2010 14:59, schrieb elin:
>> > > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> > > 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> > > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> > > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> > > In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> > > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> > > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >> > > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >> > > "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> > > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >> > > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> > > In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> > > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >> > > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> > > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >> > > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >> > > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> > > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> > > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> > > I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >> > > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >> > > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >> > > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >> > > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> > > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> > > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >> > > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >> > > of us ignoring.
>> > > Elin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote: > I would extend these comments to the tracker issues as well. The > "tense-ness" around a small minority of issues is really spoiling the > ointment so to speak and while I've generally got a fairly long fuse, > I'm growing a little wearing of wondering whether "this is going to be > yet another Vitamin B day" (simple translation to that is "high stress > dealing with people issues").
> So, I completely agree. Let's have everyone press the reset button > (and for the Lost fans, type in 4-8-15-16-23-42-Return), move on and > leave it at that so that we can all enjoy getting 1.6 out together.
> On 9 August 2010 05:35, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Also, just to follow up on the other question, when I see rude > > behavior on list I ignore it rather than respond because i consider it > > irrelevant and off topic. If you review threads in recent weeks you > > will see a number of instances where other people followed the same > > policy and remained focused on the topic at hand despite attempts, > > deliberate or otherwise, to distract from the issue being discussed > > with irrelevant or ad hominem posts. This works well at getting > > threads back on topic and problems resolved but it should unneccessary > > to have to even think about whether or not to post "please stop" or > > "you are being inappropriate" repeatedly.
> > Elin
> > On Aug 8, 3:24 pm, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hannes,
> >> As you are actually one of the people who has had the assigned job of > >> managing the lists I'd be very interested in knowing how you have > >> managed improper postings Andrew, Mark and Ian are the designated > >> leads of the bug squad and have ultimate responsible for managing it. > >> If you would like to ask them a question, again I suggest you ask them > >> personally. This list is not the place for acting out personal > >> grudges or dramas. Doing so interferes with the morale and quality of > >> life for the rest of us, something I hope you will consider. You may > >> also want to consider whether tone of some posts on the list is > >> actually discouraging responses.
> >> I assume you are not trying to justify temper tantrums or bad behavior > >> on the basis that someone didn't get an immediate response to a > >> question to a public mailing list. Heaven knows most of mine are never > >> answered, but that's just life in a collaborative environment. We are > >> all allowed time off and none of us are allowed to be abusive.
> >> Elin
> >> On Aug 8, 2:46 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> > Dear Elin, > >> > I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you > and > >> > an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that > are > >> > misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and > the > >> > rule to respond promptly? > http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html > >> > Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because > >> > they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first > place.
> >> > Hannes
> >> > Am 08.08.2010 14:59, schrieb elin:
> >> > > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> >> > > 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. > >> > > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. > >> > > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> >> > > In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated > >> > > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in > >> > > threads including a high number of personal comments about or > directed > >> > > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case > of > >> > > "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > >> > > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing > of > >> > > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> >> > > In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I > >> > > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) > members > >> > > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring > >> > > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line > >> > > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate > effectively > >> > > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an > >> > > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work > >> > > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> >> > > I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am > proposing > >> > > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns > to > >> > > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when > >> > > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement > that > >> > > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple > >> > > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the > >> > > impression for new users that such behavior is considered > acceptable. > >> > > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the > rest > >> > > of us ignoring.
> >> > > Elin
> > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
Dear Elin, in fact, I didn't have similar incidents on the mailinglists that I tried to manage. I tend to attribute that to the good work that the members of the release team did. The only times that I had issues with behavior that I would call disrespectful on the mailinglist was with members of the PLT that didn't let the RT do its work.
I would also like to state that I never had any serious arguments with people outside the PLT. If anybody felt attacked, they were interpreting that into my mails.
> As you are actually one of the people who has had the assigned job of > managing the lists I'd be very interested in knowing how you have > managed improper postings Andrew, Mark and Ian are the designated > leads of the bug squad and have ultimate responsible for managing it. > If you would like to ask them a question, again I suggest you ask them > personally. This list is not the place for acting out personal > grudges or dramas. Doing so interferes with the morale and quality of > life for the rest of us, something I hope you will consider. You may > also want to consider whether tone of some posts on the list is > actually discouraging responses.
> I assume you are not trying to justify temper tantrums or bad behavior > on the basis that someone didn't get an immediate response to a > question to a public mailing list. Heaven knows most of mine are never > answered, but that's just life in a collaborative environment. We are > all allowed time off and none of us are allowed to be abusive.
> Elin
> On Aug 8, 2:46 pm, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Elin, >> I know you are not part of OSM anymore, but you are saying that you and >> an internal circle of people are intentionally ignoring persons that are >> misbehaving. How does that comply with the code of conduct here and the >> rule to respond promptly?http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html >> Especially considering that most of the people are misbehaving because >> they don't get a response from this internal circle in the first place.
>> Hannes
>> Am 08.08.2010 14:59, schrieb elin:
>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >>> of us ignoring.
Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of > "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest > of us ignoring.
> Elin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
Most of the leadership material I've read or courses attended, and my experience would disagree with you. Taking people aside is generally an effective means of defusing a situation, though there are exceptions where it's not possible, and granted, it doesn't work if you go in with the express view of just bashing someone over the head. But on a whole, it's should be the first (and generally only necessary) step.
Whatever the case, sweeping things under the carpet is rightly not an option. However asking people to cool their cool while expressing their frustration is something that is fair to ask. I would also ask that people be particularly mindful to avoid using sarcasm as it almost always contributes to the degrading of a situation (it's like throwing water on a fat fire - meh, not so good).
> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and > solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If > problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters > and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what > you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a > peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >> of us ignoring.
>> Elin
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
No Klas, we are not talking about "public discussion of problems."
That's what this thread is. If you want to discuss a serious issue
spend a few hours writing a post the way I did and then start a new
thread.
Rather, we are talking about rude, off topic and similar posts. I
really think that empowering people to take other people's threads off
topic is inappropriate and actually reinforces negative behavior by
rewarding it with attention. And it is a vicious cycle of broken
windows were other people begin to think having temper tantrums or
behaving rudely or thread hijacking is appropriate or even worse how
to get your way. It silences all the other people who do not want to
participate in an environment where such behavior seems to be
acceptable.
I think we all understand that people feel disappointed when their
code isn't accepted; we have all been there. Just like we are all
frustrated by commits that aren't tested and break our work or change
the UI without notice.
The question is: when that happens do you act as part of a
collaborative community of people trying to produce the best software
possible or do you have a temper tantrum? I don't know if you have
ever tried to publish an article or book, but it's the same way. If
you are going to have a fit every time someone asks you to improve
your work or even if your work is rejected or you get a bad review,
you are not going to survive as a writer. I've written four books, and
it is still hard to take it, but you vent in the privacy of your own
home or office or maybe with a friend, then you move on and respond
professionally. The same goes for software. Submit unfinished or
buggy or incorrectly formatted or not Joomla! MVC code or even just
improvable code or code without tests or something that has to wait
for 1.7, don't act entitled to have it committed or assume that it is
other people's jobs to fix it.
Don't get your question answered after a week, do what I do which is
post a follow up. Act in a way that is not self-defeating and that you
are not going to be embarrassed to reread in a year or two.
The research on bad behavior says that the impact on the witnesses is
almost as severe as that on the victims. So the fact that people
choose not to directly deal with people with whom they have problems
and instead engage in aggressive, passive aggressive, or sarcastic
posting on list or in the tracker harms not just the people who they
are attacking but all of us. It makes this a bad environment and
chases people away. It is ultimately self-harming as well as harming
to the community of contributors.
It's my personal resolution never to respond in anger to a JBS thread
and never to take a thread off topic, and I hope you will consider the
same.
Elin
On Aug 8, 5:30 pm, klas berlič <klas.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and
> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If
> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters
> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what
> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a
> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
> > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> > 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> > In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
> > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
> > "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
> > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> > In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
> > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
> > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
> > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> > I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
> > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
> > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
> > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
> > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
> > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
> > of us ignoring.
> > Elin
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
I have to concur... I once had a boss that decided to "call me on the carpet' and did so infront of every employee in the company... when he got done ranting I took my turn and told him right in front of everyone just how far he could shove it. I refuse to be humiliated for "your" pleasure.. whoever "your" might be. I would much rather someone pull me aside and say WTH?? R u nuts? ... STHU! I can respect that. Troy
> Most of the leadership material I've read or courses attended, and my > experience would disagree with you. Taking people aside is generally > an effective means of defusing a situation, though there are > exceptions where it's not possible, and granted, it doesn't work if > you go in with the express view of just bashing someone over the head. > But on a whole, it's should be the first (and generally only > necessary) step.
> Whatever the case, sweeping things under the carpet is rightly not an > option. However asking people to cool their cool while expressing > their frustration is something that is fair to ask. I would also ask > that people be particularly mindful to avoid using sarcasm as it > almost always contributes to the degrading of a situation (it's like > throwing water on a fat fire - meh, not so good).
> 2010/8/9 klas berlič<klas.ber...@gmail.com>: >> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and >> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If >> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters >> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what >> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a >> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
>> Regards >> Klas
>> 2010/8/8 elin<elin.war...@gmail.com> >>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >>> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >>> of us ignoring.
>>> Elin
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
elin wrote: > The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. > 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. > 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated > significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in > threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed > specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of > "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of > norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I > know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members > of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring > them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line > about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively > in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an > informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work > with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing > that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to > being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when > someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that > that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple > statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the > impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. > Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest > of us ignoring.
IDK if there is some cultural difference going on, but I have a feeling that I don't have a clue what some are talking about.
I haven't seen anything too poisonous here... except perhaps some people from present and past leadership picking on Hannes - which really should not happen as it is 100 times more damaging when such remarks are done by someone on the position.
>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >> of us ignoring.
>> Elin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> elin wrote: >> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >> of us ignoring.
Dear Elin, I wanted to leave my comments at that and not respond to this thread anymore, but since you are now attacking Klas AND spinning it as if it was about some not-accepted-code, I will have to set some things straight.
This is of course in parts about not-accepted-code, about code that would have solved serious bugs in Joomla, that all the normal people on this list acknowledged as serious priority 1 issues, but which Andrew calls an "anomaly" after not being able to ignore it any longer. But this is also about style of management or better said about lack of management. There is no guidance where we are going, there is no planned testing, no list of high priority issues that we want to solve. I personally am still not sure if the ACL system got a real, proper testing and in fact does work as expected.
This is about the feeling of being used and then either mobbed out or kicked out when you are not convenient anymore. Just a list of people in historical order: Enno, Wilco, Anthony, Gergo, Ercan, Alex, me
This is also about the future planning of Joomla or, again, the lack of it. I've brought this issue up numerous times both in private and in public towards the PLT and all the members of the PLT that I talked to agreed, that most likely they would take some time off from all this after 1.6 is released. Considering that we have said to release 1.7 six months after 1.6 and hoping that we don't want to name a bugfix-release of 1.6 "1.7", we would need some other form of preparation for 1.7, people that manage this, people that motivate developers to work on a particular issue and most important of all, a general vision for said release. I've also mentioned this before that we need to think about 1.8 at the same time for features and issues that need more than 6 months. The only response that I got from the PLT so far was being redirected to one particular member of the PLT. This member of the PLT however has not been responding to Skype, IRC, GTalk or mail contact from numerous people (including me) for the last 3 months.
This is in general about the lack of communication from the PLT, which has been hinting on a few occasions about an RC (now again in regards to the template overrides "the deadline is RC") but has not been describing what still needs to be done to get there and when it expects that to happen. This is about the PLT saying they want community involvement, but when it is actually about people contributing innovation or anything more than doing basic coding work, their opinions and work are either ignored, contradicted or plainly refused. I was asked by Andrew a few weeks ago if I didn't want to work on an upgrade path for Joomla from 1.5 to 1.6. Apparently no one took a look at the absolut great work that Matias Aguirre has been doing with jUpgrade, which he offered to the project quite some time ago and which is most likely the easiest way to upgrade there is. Considering where we are with development, it is frightening that there has been absolutely no work done for such an upgrade path.
So please stop spinning this to be an issue of my hurt coding-ego.
> No Klas, we are not talking about "public discussion of problems." > That's what this thread is. If you want to discuss a serious issue > spend a few hours writing a post the way I did and then start a new > thread.
> Rather, we are talking about rude, off topic and similar posts. I > really think that empowering people to take other people's threads off > topic is inappropriate and actually reinforces negative behavior by > rewarding it with attention. And it is a vicious cycle of broken > windows were other people begin to think having temper tantrums or > behaving rudely or thread hijacking is appropriate or even worse how > to get your way. It silences all the other people who do not want to > participate in an environment where such behavior seems to be > acceptable.
> I think we all understand that people feel disappointed when their > code isn't accepted; we have all been there. Just like we are all > frustrated by commits that aren't tested and break our work or change > the UI without notice. > The question is: when that happens do you act as part of a > collaborative community of people trying to produce the best software > possible or do you have a temper tantrum? I don't know if you have > ever tried to publish an article or book, but it's the same way. If > you are going to have a fit every time someone asks you to improve > your work or even if your work is rejected or you get a bad review, > you are not going to survive as a writer. I've written four books, and > it is still hard to take it, but you vent in the privacy of your own > home or office or maybe with a friend, then you move on and respond > professionally. The same goes for software. Submit unfinished or > buggy or incorrectly formatted or not Joomla! MVC code or even just > improvable code or code without tests or something that has to wait > for 1.7, don't act entitled to have it committed or assume that it is > other people's jobs to fix it.
> Don't get your question answered after a week, do what I do which is > post a follow up. Act in a way that is not self-defeating and that you > are not going to be embarrassed to reread in a year or two.
> The research on bad behavior says that the impact on the witnesses is > almost as severe as that on the victims. So the fact that people > choose not to directly deal with people with whom they have problems > and instead engage in aggressive, passive aggressive, or sarcastic > posting on list or in the tracker harms not just the people who they > are attacking but all of us. It makes this a bad environment and > chases people away. It is ultimately self-harming as well as harming > to the community of contributors.
> It's my personal resolution never to respond in anger to a JBS thread > and never to take a thread off topic, and I hope you will consider the > same.
> Elin
> On Aug 8, 5:30 pm, klas berlič <klas.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and >> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If >> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters >> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what >> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a >> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >>> of us ignoring.
>>> Elin
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
This thread is not aboutr lack of communication from PLT and I did not
attack Klas in any way, I responded to the substance of his comments.
It's not about your code.. It's about how to behave on list.
Thanks for not.taking it further off topic. If you would like to start
a separate discussion please do.
Elin
On Aug 9, 4:17 am, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Dear Elin,
> I wanted to leave my comments at that and not respond to this thread
> anymore, but since you are now attacking Klas AND spinning it as if it
> was about some not-accepted-code, I will have to set some things straight.
> This is of course in parts about not-accepted-code, about code that
> would have solved serious bugs in Joomla, that all the normal people on
> this list acknowledged as serious priority 1 issues, but which Andrew
> calls an "anomaly" after not being able to ignore it any longer. But
> this is also about style of management or better said about lack of
> management. There is no guidance where we are going, there is no planned
> testing, no list of high priority issues that we want to solve. I
> personally am still not sure if the ACL system got a real, proper
> testing and in fact does work as expected.
> This is about the feeling of being used and then either mobbed out or
> kicked out when you are not convenient anymore. Just a list of people in
> historical order: Enno, Wilco, Anthony, Gergo, Ercan, Alex, me
> This is also about the future planning of Joomla or, again, the lack of
> it. I've brought this issue up numerous times both in private and in
> public towards the PLT and all the members of the PLT that I talked to
> agreed, that most likely they would take some time off from all this
> after 1.6 is released. Considering that we have said to release 1.7 six
> months after 1.6 and hoping that we don't want to name a bugfix-release
> of 1.6 "1.7", we would need some other form of preparation for 1.7,
> people that manage this, people that motivate developers to work on a
> particular issue and most important of all, a general vision for said
> release. I've also mentioned this before that we need to think about 1.8
> at the same time for features and issues that need more than 6 months.
> The only response that I got from the PLT so far was being redirected to
> one particular member of the PLT. This member of the PLT however has not
> been responding to Skype, IRC, GTalk or mail contact from numerous
> people (including me) for the last 3 months.
> This is in general about the lack of communication from the PLT, which
> has been hinting on a few occasions about an RC (now again in regards to
> the template overrides "the deadline is RC") but has not been describing
> what still needs to be done to get there and when it expects that to
> happen. This is about the PLT saying they want community involvement,
> but when it is actually about people contributing innovation or anything
> more than doing basic coding work, their opinions and work are either
> ignored, contradicted or plainly refused. I was asked by Andrew a few
> weeks ago if I didn't want to work on an upgrade path for Joomla from
> 1.5 to 1.6. Apparently no one took a look at the absolut great work that
> Matias Aguirre has been doing with jUpgrade, which he offered to the
> project quite some time ago and which is most likely the easiest way to
> upgrade there is. Considering where we are with development, it is
> frightening that there has been absolutely no work done for such an
> upgrade path.
> So please stop spinning this to be an issue of my hurt coding-ego.
> Hannes
> Am 09.08.2010 01:51, schrieb elin:
> > No Klas, we are not talking about "public discussion of problems."
> > That's what this thread is. If you want to discuss a serious issue
> > spend a few hours writing a post the way I did and then start a new
> > thread.
> > Rather, we are talking about rude, off topic and similar posts. I
> > really think that empowering people to take other people's threads off
> > topic is inappropriate and actually reinforces negative behavior by
> > rewarding it with attention. And it is a vicious cycle of broken
> > windows were other people begin to think having temper tantrums or
> > behaving rudely or thread hijacking is appropriate or even worse how
> > to get your way. It silences all the other people who do not want to
> > participate in an environment where such behavior seems to be
> > acceptable.
> > I think we all understand that people feel disappointed when their
> > code isn't accepted; we have all been there. Just like we are all
> > frustrated by commits that aren't tested and break our work or change
> > the UI without notice.
> > The question is: when that happens do you act as part of a
> > collaborative community of people trying to produce the best software
> > possible or do you have a temper tantrum? I don't know if you have
> > ever tried to publish an article or book, but it's the same way. If
> > you are going to have a fit every time someone asks you to improve
> > your work or even if your work is rejected or you get a bad review,
> > you are not going to survive as a writer. I've written four books, and
> > it is still hard to take it, but you vent in the privacy of your own
> > home or office or maybe with a friend, then you move on and respond
> > professionally. The same goes for software. Submit unfinished or
> > buggy or incorrectly formatted or not Joomla! MVC code or even just
> > improvable code or code without tests or something that has to wait
> > for 1.7, don't act entitled to have it committed or assume that it is
> > other people's jobs to fix it.
> > Don't get your question answered after a week, do what I do which is
> > post a follow up. Act in a way that is not self-defeating and that you
> > are not going to be embarrassed to reread in a year or two.
> > The research on bad behavior says that the impact on the witnesses is
> > almost as severe as that on the victims. So the fact that people
> > choose not to directly deal with people with whom they have problems
> > and instead engage in aggressive, passive aggressive, or sarcastic
> > posting on list or in the tracker harms not just the people who they
> > are attacking but all of us. It makes this a bad environment and
> > chases people away. It is ultimately self-harming as well as harming
> > to the community of contributors.
> > It's my personal resolution never to respond in anger to a JBS thread
> > and never to take a thread off topic, and I hope you will consider the
> > same.
> > Elin
> > On Aug 8, 5:30 pm, klas berlič <klas.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and
> >> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If
> >> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters
> >> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what
> >> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a
> >> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
> >>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> >>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> >>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
> >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
> >>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
> >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> >>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
> >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
> >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
> >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> >>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
> >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
> >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
> >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
> >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
> >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
> >>> of us ignoring.
> >>> Elin
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >>> "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>>http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
Ok, so what I'm hearing is that we are long overdue for a JBS meeting where people can voice concerns, ask for help, make sure people are getting what they need, etc, and so on. I'll talk to Mark and Ian when we are all awake at the same time and see if we can arrange a staggered pair of meetings to cover the timezones soon. I've been thinking it's probably worth having a touch-base session each release fortnight anyway.
> This thread is not aboutr lack of communication from PLT and I did not > attack Klas in any way, I responded to the substance of his comments. > It's not about your code.. It's about how to behave on list.
> Thanks for not.taking it further off topic. If you would like to start > a separate discussion please do.
> Elin
> On Aug 9, 4:17 am, Hannes Papenberg <hackwa...@googlemail.com> wrote: >> Dear Elin, >> I wanted to leave my comments at that and not respond to this thread >> anymore, but since you are now attacking Klas AND spinning it as if it >> was about some not-accepted-code, I will have to set some things straight.
>> This is of course in parts about not-accepted-code, about code that >> would have solved serious bugs in Joomla, that all the normal people on >> this list acknowledged as serious priority 1 issues, but which Andrew >> calls an "anomaly" after not being able to ignore it any longer. But >> this is also about style of management or better said about lack of >> management. There is no guidance where we are going, there is no planned >> testing, no list of high priority issues that we want to solve. I >> personally am still not sure if the ACL system got a real, proper >> testing and in fact does work as expected.
>> This is about the feeling of being used and then either mobbed out or >> kicked out when you are not convenient anymore. Just a list of people in >> historical order: Enno, Wilco, Anthony, Gergo, Ercan, Alex, me
>> This is also about the future planning of Joomla or, again, the lack of >> it. I've brought this issue up numerous times both in private and in >> public towards the PLT and all the members of the PLT that I talked to >> agreed, that most likely they would take some time off from all this >> after 1.6 is released. Considering that we have said to release 1.7 six >> months after 1.6 and hoping that we don't want to name a bugfix-release >> of 1.6 "1.7", we would need some other form of preparation for 1.7, >> people that manage this, people that motivate developers to work on a >> particular issue and most important of all, a general vision for said >> release. I've also mentioned this before that we need to think about 1.8 >> at the same time for features and issues that need more than 6 months. >> The only response that I got from the PLT so far was being redirected to >> one particular member of the PLT. This member of the PLT however has not >> been responding to Skype, IRC, GTalk or mail contact from numerous >> people (including me) for the last 3 months.
>> This is in general about the lack of communication from the PLT, which >> has been hinting on a few occasions about an RC (now again in regards to >> the template overrides "the deadline is RC") but has not been describing >> what still needs to be done to get there and when it expects that to >> happen. This is about the PLT saying they want community involvement, >> but when it is actually about people contributing innovation or anything >> more than doing basic coding work, their opinions and work are either >> ignored, contradicted or plainly refused. I was asked by Andrew a few >> weeks ago if I didn't want to work on an upgrade path for Joomla from >> 1.5 to 1.6. Apparently no one took a look at the absolut great work that >> Matias Aguirre has been doing with jUpgrade, which he offered to the >> project quite some time ago and which is most likely the easiest way to >> upgrade there is. Considering where we are with development, it is >> frightening that there has been absolutely no work done for such an >> upgrade path.
>> So please stop spinning this to be an issue of my hurt coding-ego.
>> Hannes
>> Am 09.08.2010 01:51, schrieb elin:
>> > No Klas, we are not talking about "public discussion of problems." >> > That's what this thread is. If you want to discuss a serious issue >> > spend a few hours writing a post the way I did and then start a new >> > thread.
>> > Rather, we are talking about rude, off topic and similar posts. I >> > really think that empowering people to take other people's threads off >> > topic is inappropriate and actually reinforces negative behavior by >> > rewarding it with attention. And it is a vicious cycle of broken >> > windows were other people begin to think having temper tantrums or >> > behaving rudely or thread hijacking is appropriate or even worse how >> > to get your way. It silences all the other people who do not want to >> > participate in an environment where such behavior seems to be >> > acceptable.
>> > I think we all understand that people feel disappointed when their >> > code isn't accepted; we have all been there. Just like we are all >> > frustrated by commits that aren't tested and break our work or change >> > the UI without notice. >> > The question is: when that happens do you act as part of a >> > collaborative community of people trying to produce the best software >> > possible or do you have a temper tantrum? I don't know if you have >> > ever tried to publish an article or book, but it's the same way. If >> > you are going to have a fit every time someone asks you to improve >> > your work or even if your work is rejected or you get a bad review, >> > you are not going to survive as a writer. I've written four books, and >> > it is still hard to take it, but you vent in the privacy of your own >> > home or office or maybe with a friend, then you move on and respond >> > professionally. The same goes for software. Submit unfinished or >> > buggy or incorrectly formatted or not Joomla! MVC code or even just >> > improvable code or code without tests or something that has to wait >> > for 1.7, don't act entitled to have it committed or assume that it is >> > other people's jobs to fix it.
>> > Don't get your question answered after a week, do what I do which is >> > post a follow up. Act in a way that is not self-defeating and that you >> > are not going to be embarrassed to reread in a year or two.
>> > The research on bad behavior says that the impact on the witnesses is >> > almost as severe as that on the victims. So the fact that people >> > choose not to directly deal with people with whom they have problems >> > and instead engage in aggressive, passive aggressive, or sarcastic >> > posting on list or in the tracker harms not just the people who they >> > are attacking but all of us. It makes this a bad environment and >> > chases people away. It is ultimately self-harming as well as harming >> > to the community of contributors.
>> > It's my personal resolution never to respond in anger to a JBS thread >> > and never to take a thread off topic, and I hope you will consider the >> > same.
>> > Elin
>> > On Aug 8, 5:30 pm, klas berlič <klas.ber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Pulling people aside does not really help. Public discussion of problems and >> >> solving them here and now is the only thing that can bring us forward. If >> >> problems are not solved and are continuously swept under the carpet, posters >> >> and post will only get angrier and angrier. It might be that this is what >> >> you are seeing now. And as history teaches us such stories either end with a >> >> peaceful transition or a revolution - totally depends on a leadership.
>> >>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> >>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> >>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >> >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >> >>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >> >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> >>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >> >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >> >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >> >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> >>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >> >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >> >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >> >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >> >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >> >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >> >>> of us ignoring.
I do think there are some similar issues raised, not that it is 100%
exactly word for word the same situation.
The main theme though is strategies for how to set up the official
working 'community infrastructure', in a way that promote a healthy,
productive communications around a consensus based project. Also,
outlines some pitfalls to avoid, such as allowing loud minority voices
from derailing consensus of the majority. I would say that everyone
here has the best intentions, but good intentions only go so far.
Compromise, humility, and always keeping the tone respectful are
extremely important to keep a healthy, productive discussion going. We
all care about this project, or we would be here. But sometimes any of
us can get too caught up in the details, and can't see the bigger
picture, so we need to take a step back, and remember why we're all
here.
Phil
klas berlič wrote:
IDK if there is some cultural difference going on, but I have a feeling
that I don't have a clue what some are talking about.
I haven't seen anything too poisonous here... except perhaps some
people from present and past leadership picking on Hannes - which
really should not happen as it is 100 times more damaging when such
remarks are done by someone on the position.
The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
3. Announcements related to JBS.
In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
"broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
with any more because of their repeated behavior.
I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
of us ignoring.
I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves. Meaning, we all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our ideas, our our intentions, we can all make mistakes.
We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing a lot of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the project.
It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So please keep it up!
>> elin wrote: >>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >>> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >>> of us ignoring.
Good points Phil. I'm certainly far from perfect and there's a few things people have raised that apply to me, and I'll work on what I can do about that, and then just agree to disagree where we have idealogical differences :) I should also say that I do have an open door policy - if anyone has an issue with me directly, or wants my help with something, just shoot me a mail (I don't bite, well, at least not after I've had breakfast).
> I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves. Meaning, we > all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our ideas, > our our intentions, we can all make mistakes. > We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off > topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first > priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing a lot > of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the project. > It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do the > work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So please > keep it up!
> Phil
> Troy T. Hall wrote:
>> Hope I'm not a poisonous person :-( >> Troy >> On 8/8/2010 8:26 PM, Phil Snell wrote:
>>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed >>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of >>>> "broken windows" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of >>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members >>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line >>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively >>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing >>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to >>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when >>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that >>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable. >>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest >>>> of us ignoring.
>>>> Elin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
Lemme chime in my two cents (you don't have a choice at this point LOL)...
I was in an organization that relied heavily on e-mail communication. Supporting 24 hour operations, many times, e-mail is the only way you communicate with some people. But, we knew each other for the most part, and had an understanding of the tone of voice that was used by the individual writing the e-mail, be it the leadership or the worker bee's at the bottom of the food chain. In our environment, we don't have the ability to know one another so easily.
Not only are we losing the personal touch by knowing everyone that reads these e-mails (and let's be honest, aside from small groups, how many within the J! community can say they are good friends with someone they've met working on with Joomla and never spoken to in real life?) but we're also fighting cultural differences. Being American, I can't speak to a German and expect them to automatically know the meaning behind my tone of voice (in this case, tone of written word) or whether to read my messages with a hint of sarcasm attached. Same goes for every country represented within the Joomla community.
I have a rule of thumb when it comes to e-mails. If I wouldn't address a person in real life a certain way, I certainly won't do it via e-mail.
I'd remind everyone also, that there is the "Reply to Author" link/
option on every post that allows you to e-mail directly to someone who
you need to have an offline conversation with. Please do that rather
than take someone's thread off topic to have a two person
conversation.
E-mails to list are e-mails to list. We should not be filling readers'
mailboxes with posts that are not substantive or relevant to the
subject line. The last thing we want is people unsubscribing, but
unfortunately the degeneration in tone and growth of thread hijacking
have begun to move this list towards being a time waster rather than
interesting or productive reading.
@Hannes and Klas,
I'm not sure why you think I'm speaking about you particularly (except
for asking Hannes not to hijack my thread). Nothing in my post
mentioned any names and this thread is about a general problem in tone
that has gotten far more widespread in recent weeks not about either
of you specifically. It's great if you want to reflect back on your
own posting histories (as I have done on mine) in light of this thread
but I think you are perhaps misreading the substance of the post. If I
want to discuss one of your posts with you I will certainly email you
directly and not take up other people's time with it.
Elin
On Aug 9, 9:31 am, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good points Phil. I'm certainly far from perfect and there's a few
> things people have raised that apply to me, and I'll work on what I
> can do about that, and then just agree to disagree where we have
> idealogical differences :) I should also say that I do have an open
> door policy - if anyone has an issue with me directly, or wants my
> help with something, just shoot me a mail (I don't bite, well, at
> least not after I've had breakfast).
> On 9 August 2010 23:07, Phil Snell <p...@snellcode.com> wrote:
> > I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves. Meaning, we
> > all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our ideas,
> > our our intentions, we can all make mistakes.
> > We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off
> > topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first
> > priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing a lot
> > of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the project.
> > It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do the
> > work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So please
> > keep it up!
> > Phil
> > Troy T. Hall wrote:
> >> Hope I'm not a poisonous person :-(
> >> Troy
> >> On 8/8/2010 8:26 PM, Phil Snell wrote:
> >>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> >>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> >>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> >>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> >>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> >>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> >>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or directed
> >>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case of
> >>>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > >>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing of
> >>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> >>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> >>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) members
> >>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> >>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line
> >>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate effectively
> >>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> >>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> >>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> >>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am proposing
> >>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns to
> >>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when
> >>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement that
> >>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> >>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> >>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered acceptable.
> >>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the rest
> >>>> of us ignoring.
> >>>> Elin
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
This must be a mistake, I don't think I wrote anything that would indicate I recognized myself in this. I just hate to se hard working people beeing attacked and lazy one vigorously defended (speaking generaly about this list).
> I'd remind everyone also, that there is the "Reply to Author" link/ > option on every post that allows you to e-mail directly to someone who > you need to have an offline conversation with. Please do that rather > than take someone's thread off topic to have a two person > conversation.
> E-mails to list are e-mails to list. We should not be filling readers' > mailboxes with posts that are not substantive or relevant to the > subject line. The last thing we want is people unsubscribing, but > unfortunately the degeneration in tone and growth of thread hijacking > have begun to move this list towards being a time waster rather than > interesting or productive reading.
> @Hannes and Klas, > I'm not sure why you think I'm speaking about you particularly (except > for asking Hannes not to hijack my thread). Nothing in my post > mentioned any names and this thread is about a general problem in tone > that has gotten far more widespread in recent weeks not about either > of you specifically. It's great if you want to reflect back on your > own posting histories (as I have done on mine) in light of this thread > but I think you are perhaps misreading the substance of the post. If I > want to discuss one of your posts with you I will certainly email you > directly and not take up other people's time with it.
> Elin
> On Aug 9, 9:31 am, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Good points Phil. I'm certainly far from perfect and there's a few > > things people have raised that apply to me, and I'll work on what I > > can do about that, and then just agree to disagree where we have > > idealogical differences :) I should also say that I do have an open > > door policy - if anyone has an issue with me directly, or wants my > > help with something, just shoot me a mail (I don't bite, well, at > > least not after I've had breakfast).
> > On 9 August 2010 23:07, Phil Snell <p...@snellcode.com> wrote:
> > > I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves. > Meaning, we > > > all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our > ideas, > > > our our intentions, we can all make mistakes. > > > We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off > > > topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first > > > priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing a > lot > > > of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the > project. > > > It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do > the > > > work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So > please > > > keep it up!
> > > Phil
> > > Troy T. Hall wrote:
> > >> Hope I'm not a poisonous person :-( > > >> Troy > > >> On 8/8/2010 8:26 PM, Phil Snell wrote:
> > >>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> > >>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. > > >>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. > > >>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> > >>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated > > >>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in > > >>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or > directed > > >>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case > of > > >>>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > > >>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing > of > > >>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> > >>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I > > >>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) > members > > >>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring > > >>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off line > > >>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate > effectively > > >>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an > > >>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work > > >>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> > >>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am > proposing > > >>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns > to > > >>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat when > > >>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement > that > > >>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple > > >>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the > > >>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered > acceptable. > > >>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the > rest > > >>>> of us ignoring.
> > >>>> Elin
> > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
I apologize if sometimes things get lost with good intentions. I try my best, but sometimes in all that is going on around me I don't reply. I resent being called lazy though, because (at least I feel like) I spend a lot of time on this project doing numerous things - some things that people see, and some things that are less visible.
I admit that sometimes I don't do things right away because I like to take time to ponder and think before I act. Sometimes as a result things get forgotten. I apologize. I attribute this to being human. If the general consensus is that that is unacceptable, then I'll have to think hard about my future with the project because I've been working on changing that for years and it hasn't happened.
> This must be a mistake, I don't think I wrote anything that would indicate > I recognized myself in this. I just hate to se hard working people beeing > attacked and lazy one vigorously defended (speaking generaly about this > list).
> I'd remind everyone also, that there is the "Reply to Author" link/ >> option on every post that allows you to e-mail directly to someone who >> you need to have an offline conversation with. Please do that rather >> than take someone's thread off topic to have a two person >> conversation.
>> E-mails to list are e-mails to list. We should not be filling readers' >> mailboxes with posts that are not substantive or relevant to the >> subject line. The last thing we want is people unsubscribing, but >> unfortunately the degeneration in tone and growth of thread hijacking >> have begun to move this list towards being a time waster rather than >> interesting or productive reading.
>> @Hannes and Klas, >> I'm not sure why you think I'm speaking about you particularly (except >> for asking Hannes not to hijack my thread). Nothing in my post >> mentioned any names and this thread is about a general problem in tone >> that has gotten far more widespread in recent weeks not about either >> of you specifically. It's great if you want to reflect back on your >> own posting histories (as I have done on mine) in light of this thread >> but I think you are perhaps misreading the substance of the post. If I >> want to discuss one of your posts with you I will certainly email you >> directly and not take up other people's time with it.
>> Elin
>> On Aug 9, 9:31 am, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Good points Phil. I'm certainly far from perfect and there's a few >> > things people have raised that apply to me, and I'll work on what I >> > can do about that, and then just agree to disagree where we have >> > idealogical differences :) I should also say that I do have an open >> > door policy - if anyone has an issue with me directly, or wants my >> > help with something, just shoot me a mail (I don't bite, well, at >> > least not after I've had breakfast).
>> > On 9 August 2010 23:07, Phil Snell <p...@snellcode.com> wrote:
>> > > I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves. >> Meaning, we >> > > all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our >> ideas, >> > > our our intentions, we can all make mistakes. >> > > We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off >> > > topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first >> > > priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing >> a lot >> > > of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the >> project. >> > > It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do >> the >> > > work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So >> please >> > > keep it up!
>> > > Phil
>> > > Troy T. Hall wrote:
>> > >> Hope I'm not a poisonous person :-( >> > >> Troy >> > >> On 8/8/2010 8:26 PM, Phil Snell wrote:
>> > >>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
>> > >>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5. >> > >>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC. >> > >>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
>> > >>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated >> > >>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in >> > >>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or >> directed >> > >>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case >> of >> > >>>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory >> > >>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing >> of >> > >>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
>> > >>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I >> > >>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses) >> members >> > >>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring >> > >>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off >> line >> > >>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate >> effectively >> > >>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an >> > >>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work >> > >>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
>> > >>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am >> proposing >> > >>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns >> to >> > >>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat >> when >> > >>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement >> that >> > >>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple >> > >>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the >> > >>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered >> acceptable. >> > >>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the >> rest >> > >>>> of us ignoring.
>> > >>>> Elin
>> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> >> . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Joomla! bug Squad" group. >> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! bug Squad" group. > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
1. That the JBS list focus on the three main purposes of the JBS list.
2. That there not be thread hijacking.
3. That rude and otherwise inappropriate comments not be made.
And what has happened is:
1. We have posts about issues not related to the JBS list.
2. We have thread hijacking.
3. We have rude and personal comments that have now devolved into
calling people names.
I guess that if nothing else this thread is now an example of how
unacceptable behavior (including as Michael said any behavior that you
would never engage in during a face to face interaction) seems to have
become acceptable here. I could say, I rest my case, but instead, I
would like to reiterate the request that we all reset our norms of
acceptability.
Here are some principles:
If it isn't fixing a bug or dealing with an internal JBS issue, it
does not belong on this list.
If it is denigrating or insulting to any person, either directly or
indirectly, it does not belong on this list.
Standards:
Would you like it said about you?
Would you say it in person?
If it is a useless one liner, it does not belong on this list.
If it is a personal communication with another individual it does not
belong on this list.
I'm happy to have additions or subtractions to that list but I think
we have to deal with this or no one will want to read this list and
those of us who are working on bug fixing will continue to be
distracted from that, and we will continue to lose those who silently
leave because it's not worth the time or energy to participate in an
environment that is unpleasant, even toxic, whether as a victim or
witness to inappropriate behavior.
Elin
On Aug 9, 12:08 pm, Ian MacLennan <ian.maclen...@joomla.org> wrote:
> I apologize if sometimes things get lost with good intentions. I try my
> best, but sometimes in all that is going on around me I don't reply. I
> resent being called lazy though, because (at least I feel like) I spend a
> lot of time on this project doing numerous things - some things that people
> see, and some things that are less visible.
> I admit that sometimes I don't do things right away because I like to take
> time to ponder and think before I act. Sometimes as a result things get
> forgotten. I apologize. I attribute this to being human. If the general
> consensus is that that is unacceptable, then I'll have to think hard about
> my future with the project because I've been working on changing that for
> years and it hasn't happened.
> > This must be a mistake, I don't think I wrote anything that would indicate
> > I recognized myself in this. I just hate to se hard working people beeing
> > attacked and lazy one vigorously defended (speaking generaly about this
> > list).
> > I'd remind everyone also, that there is the "Reply to Author" link/
> >> option on every post that allows you to e-mail directly to someone who
> >> you need to have an offline conversation with. Please do that rather
> >> than take someone's thread off topic to have a two person
> >> conversation.
> >> E-mails to list are e-mails to list. We should not be filling readers'
> >> mailboxes with posts that are not substantive or relevant to the
> >> subject line. The last thing we want is people unsubscribing, but
> >> unfortunately the degeneration in tone and growth of thread hijacking
> >> have begun to move this list towards being a time waster rather than
> >> interesting or productive reading.
> >> @Hannes and Klas,
> >> I'm not sure why you think I'm speaking about you particularly (except
> >> for asking Hannes not to hijack my thread). Nothing in my post
> >> mentioned any names and this thread is about a general problem in tone
> >> that has gotten far more widespread in recent weeks not about either
> >> of you specifically. It's great if you want to reflect back on your
> >> own posting histories (as I have done on mine) in light of this thread
> >> but I think you are perhaps misreading the substance of the post. If I
> >> want to discuss one of your posts with you I will certainly email you
> >> directly and not take up other people's time with it.
> >> Elin
> >> On Aug 9, 9:31 am, Andrew Eddie <mambob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Good points Phil. I'm certainly far from perfect and there's a few
> >> > things people have raised that apply to me, and I'll work on what I
> >> > can do about that, and then just agree to disagree where we have
> >> > idealogical differences :) I should also say that I do have an open
> >> > door policy - if anyone has an issue with me directly, or wants my
> >> > help with something, just shoot me a mail (I don't bite, well, at
> >> > least not after I've had breakfast).
> >> > On 9 August 2010 23:07, Phil Snell <p...@snellcode.com> wrote:
> >> > > I also hope I'm not, and it's a good question to ask ourselves.
> >> Meaning, we
> >> > > all should be humble, and know that sometimes, no matter how good our
> >> ideas,
> >> > > our our intentions, we can all make mistakes.
> >> > > We need to be able to step back from issues when we see them going off
> >> > > topic, and try to keep the success of the project as a whole the first
> >> > > priority. I know you care about the project, and have been investing
> >> a lot
> >> > > of time fixing bugs. That's fantastic, and very helpful to the
> >> project.
> >> > > It's people like you that are willing to roll up their sleeves and do
> >> the
> >> > > work, ask the tough questions, that's what will get 1.6 finished. So
> >> please
> >> > > keep it up!
> >> > > Phil
> >> > > Troy T. Hall wrote:
> >> > >> Hope I'm not a poisonous person :-(
> >> > >> Troy
> >> > >> On 8/8/2010 8:26 PM, Phil Snell wrote:
> >> > >>>> The bug squad list is a working list. Currently it has three tasks:
> >> > >>>> 1. Discussing issues related to ongoing maintenance of Joomla! 1.5.
> >> > >>>> 2. Discussing issues related to preparing Joomla! 1.6 for RC.
> >> > >>>> 3. Announcements related to JBS.
> >> > >>>> In recent weeks the tone and content of this list has deteriorated
> >> > >>>> significantly. There are increasing numbers of off topic posts in
> >> > >>>> threads including a high number of personal comments about or
> >> directed
> >> > >>>> specifically at individuals. Unfortunately, I think this is a case
> >> of
> >> > >>>> "broken windows"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory > >> > >>>> where tolerating a little bit of bad behavior has led to a changing
> >> of
> >> > >>>> norms that has encouraged the growth of more bad behavior.
> >> > >>>> In general (with the exception of a couple of angry responses and I
> >> > >>>> know I've been tempted numerous times to make angry responses)
> >> members
> >> > >>>> of the list have been responding to inappropriate posts by ignoring
> >> > >>>> them on list and Mark, Ian or Andrew speaking to the poster off
> >> line
> >> > >>>> about appropriate posting behavior and how to participate
> >> effectively
> >> > >>>> in a collaborative environment. We've also had the growth of an
> >> > >>>> informal situation where there are people no one is willing to work
> >> > >>>> with any more because of their repeated behavior.
> >> > >>>> I'm not proposing banning people or anything like that. I am
> >> proposing
> >> > >>>> that we reset the norms for posting on this list so that it returns
> >> to
> >> > >>>> being a useful working list. The other thing I propose is t hat
> >> when
> >> > >>>> someone is spoken to off line that there be some public statement
> >> that
> >> > >>>> that has happened, whether an apology from the poster or a simple
> >> > >>>> statement from the leadership person. That way we don't leave the
> >> > >>>> impression for new users that such behavior is considered
> >> acceptable.
> >> > >>>> Other than that let's continue the informal policy we have of the
> >> rest
> >> > >>>> of us ignoring.
> >> > >>>> Elin
> >> > > --
> >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups
> >> > > "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> >> > > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> > > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Joomla! bug Squad" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to joomlabugsquad@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > joomlabugsquad+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<joomlabugsquad%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabugsquad?hl=en.
