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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 5 2009, 7:32 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:32:46 +1100
Local: Sat, Dec 5 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: Joomla sites redesign
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I think it's time to get working on a complete redesign of our websites. Not
only the templates, but perhaps also the layout/content of some of them. I
have some ideas, as I'm not one to mention the problem unless I have a
proposal for a solution. It's no small task though, and much feedback will
need to be gathered from internal teams before we being.

First, I just wanted to gather some feedback from the rest of you as to if
this is a good path to start down. So.. feed me/us.

-----
Brad Baker
Twitter @xyzulu <http://twitter.com/xyzulu>
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org


 
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Jen Kramer  
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 More options Dec 5 2009, 7:55 pm
From: "Jen Kramer " <focused...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:55:23 -0500
Local: Sat, Dec 5 2009 7:55 pm
Subject: RE: Joomla sites redesign
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I think this is an excellent suggestion. Some of the content is very
difficult to find on the site. I'd recommend working on some site goals,
target audiences, and site and organization messages. I'd also recommend
evaluate what content is on the site, what's missing, and what's out of
date. This could help drive a good site map for the site, and building could
go from there.

thanks,
Jen

.........................
Jen Kramer
4Web, Inc.
Creators of Highly Customized Joomla Websites
www.4webinc.com <http://www.4webinc.com/>
802-257-2657
j...@4webinc.com
Twitter: jen4web
Read our blog! www.joomla4web.com <http://www.joomla4web.com/>

  _____  

From: Brad Baker [mailto:brad.ba...@community.joomla.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:33 PM
To: joomla-wg-community@googlegroups.com
Subject: Joomla sites redesign

I think it's time to get working on a complete redesign of our websites. Not
only the templates, but perhaps also the layout/content of some of them. I
have some ideas, as I'm not one to mention the problem unless I have a
proposal for a solution. It's no small task though, and much feedback will
need to be gathered from internal teams before we being.

First, I just wanted to gather some feedback from the rest of you as to if
this is a good path to start down. So.. feed me/us.

-----
Brad Baker
Twitter @xyzulu <http://twitter.com/xyzulu>  
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

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Ken Crowder  
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 More options Dec 5 2009, 9:00 pm
From: Ken Crowder <ken.crow...@joomla.org>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 20:00:11 -0600
Local: Sat, Dec 5 2009 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I'd like to see everything simplified. As it has been stated, there is a lot
of information on the various sites which makes it hard to find what you
want. I have to assume that we will still have different web sites for
different purposes (ie. www, community, developer, help, etc). ... just my
2.5 cents. I'm looking forward to everyone else's suggestions.

--
Kenneth Crowder (aka ChiefGoFor)
Joomla Leadership Team

 
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Wendy Robinson  
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 More options Dec 5 2009, 9:19 pm
From: Wendy Robinson <wendy.robin...@opensourcematters.org>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:19:19 -0800
Local: Sat, Dec 5 2009 9:19 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I think a redesign is a great idea and most needed.  I think what we need to
do different this time though is really evaluate content and information and
outline a structure on a mock up and then a  bare bones template and then
design up from there.

I have some ideas too and happy to share.

Wendy


 
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Jennifer Marriott  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 10:38 am
From: Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 07:38:47 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 10:38 am
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I agree that finding the content you are looking for is extremely
difficult.  I think it would be good to evaluate each site and define
what the purpose of the site is, and what the channel of use is (how
people are going to navigate through it to find the information that
the purpose defines), and design a structural mock up that illustrates
how the sites operationally work together, and how the informational
structure on each site may be linked, then drill down from there to
creating and defining the individual structure of each site.  Having
that foundation really well thought out will increase the usability of
the sites ten-fold in my opinion.

As a kind of related question, but just general in nature - How do
people feel about mega type menus and the mini-site maps located at
the bottom of big sites?  I seem to be seeing more and more of those
in use.

Jenny

On Dec 5, 8:19 pm, Wendy Robinson


 
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Jen Kramer  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 11:05 am
From: "Jen Kramer " <focused...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:05:32 -0500
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 11:05 am
Subject: RE: Joomla sites redesign
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Mini site maps at the bottom of the page are accessible and relatively
straightforward if implemented well. Mega menus, if they include dropdowns,
can be inaccessible and confusing.

However, I think it's really premature to be discussing navigation
structures without completely understanding the problem we're trying to
solve.

Jen


 
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Jennifer Marriott  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 12:19 pm
From: Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 09:19:16 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 12:19 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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As I said Jen it was just a general question.  Just wanted to know
what people thought about them.

Jenny

On Dec 6, 10:05 am, "Jen Kramer " <focused...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 3:19 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:19:40 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 3:19 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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As long as we all agree at this point that a redesign would be good,
I'll take some time to put together the proposal I want to present.

On Dec 7, 4:19 am, Jennifer Marriott <marpomultime...@gmail.com>
wrote:


 
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Paul Orwig  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 3:56 pm
From: Paul Orwig <paul.or...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:56:29 -0700
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Brad,

I think this project is a great idea. Ron Severdia and Airton and I have
had some email discussions over the last couple of months about possible
changes on the Community site (navigation and home page content
restructuring). Even better would be a unified effort to make things simpler
and more consistent across all the J! websites.

Thanks for bringing up this idea!

paul

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Brad Baker
<brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>wrote:


 
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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 6 2009, 3:59 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 07:59:16 +1100
Local: Sun, Dec 6 2009 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Yip.. the last updates were a good step in unification, but I think we can
even more unify the layout and design of things.

Ok, I'm excited to see some of you are excited. :)

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Paul Orwig
<paul.or...@community.joomla.org>wrote:

-----
Brad Baker
Twitter @xyzulu <http://twitter.com/xyzulu>
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

 
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Mike Hamanaka  
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 More options Dec 7 2009, 7:09 pm
From: Mike Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:09:13 -0800 (PST)
Local: Mon, Dec 7 2009 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I like the idea of strong navigational elements at the bottom,
including the mini-site maps idea, if implemented site-wide it could
work as a phase 1 band-aid.

I have found that in Academic sites or in very large organizational
sites, a good start to a redesign/reworking is an A to Z list of all
pages that are important.  (including some sort of mechanism to manage
and maintain this list)

Would be important to have some goals, for instance, would we be
attempting to keep URL's consistent? etc.

On Dec 6, 8:05 am, "Jen Kramer " <focused...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 7 2009, 7:14 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 16:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Local: Mon, Dec 7 2009 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Yes, we need an overall approach.

I'll try to note down my plan and share it sometime on this list.
Having a busy week though ;)

On Dec 8, 11:09 am, Mike Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Pierre Gazzola  
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 More options Dec 8 2009, 3:57 pm
From: Pierre Gazzola <lafranc...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:57:08 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues, Dec 8 2009 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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It would be great also to had features for jed.

1 feature to report exploit once reported that it could be
automatically put on hold that extension

2.Also jed should be split into free and paid extension,this may help
searching jed easier maybe

3 A better search engine for jed. so many result are not even relevant
to the search.

4 easy navigation to our by laws and the group minutes

5. A link directly to email with option Want to contribute to the
community
email would have option what category they fill the form and voila
done.
at this time you are send to a page with many links that confuse
users.

Pierre Gazzola

On Dec 7, 5:14 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:


 
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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 8 2009, 4:05 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:05:41 +1100
Local: Tues, Dec 8 2009 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Pierre, the first 3 are JED software related, and I know that Lee and others
are already discussing that.

As for 4 and 5 they can well be incorporated into the idea I have. Thanks
for sharing.

...

read more »


 
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elin  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 11:46 am
From: elin <elin.war...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:46:15 -0800 (PST)
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 11:46 am
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Jenny Ron and I actually started a discussion a while ago about mega
neavigation and I have about half of a module for the bottom done.

The most important thing imo would be improved cross site search
available on every page. That's website 101. Again, there's a module
ready to go if someone decides to publish it.

Elin

On Dec 8, 4:05 pm, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org> wrote:

...

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Ole Ottosen  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 5:21 pm
From: Ole Ottosen <ole.otto...@joomla.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:21:25 +0100
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:21 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Hej folkens,

Set fra et internationalt perspektiv, så er der også et stigende behov for
en bedre præsentation og organisering af indhold relateret til oversættelse,
internationalisering og lokalisering.
Vi fra TCT vil gerne være en del af denne generelle proces for at forbedre
brugeroplevelsen på j.org

Ole

...

read more »


 
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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 5:23 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:23:15 +1100
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:23 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Ole.. English please :P

...

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Lorenzo Garcia  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 5:25 pm
From: Lorenzo Garcia <lorenzo.gar...@extensions.joomla.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:25:17 +0100
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I can help with the translation .. Danish and Swedish is very similar :p

I have the feeling that Ole sent it to wrong mail ;-)

2009/12/10 Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>:

...

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Ole Ottosen  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 5:33 pm
From: Ole Ottosen <ole.otto...@joomla.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:33:47 +0100
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:33 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Thanks Brad, was fishing for exactly that reply :p

Tried to find a way of explaining the importance of us welcoming the whole
joomla community when they visit j.org - especially those not understanding
the english language.

Now they will meet a strange text as above... Think we wouldnt do wrong in
thinking in some welcoming pointers for those to some basic info about
Joomla! - in their preferred language.

For those not comfortable with danish, the above text says:
 Hey folks,

Seen from an international perspective, then there is a growing demand for a
better presentation and organisation of content related to translation,
internationalisation and localisation.
We from the Translation Coordination Team (TCT) would like to be a part of
this general process of improving the overall user experience at j.org

Ole

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Brad Baker <

...

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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 10 2009, 5:36 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:36:34 +1100
Local: Thurs, Dec 10 2009 5:36 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Right.. I understand that language now :P

Yip, once I get a moment I will put the general proposal I had on this list,
and will welcome your input so we can incorporate the need to appeal to more
than just English visitors. :) Thanks to you and your team.

...

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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 13 2009, 7:59 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:59:08 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Dec 13 2009 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Ok.. I have a moment.. so here is my idea, well.. I'm presenting it,
but a number of people have discussed it with me. Special thanks to
Louis.

How about we come up with a simple, but clear Request for Proposal
that we can present to the community. The proposal would include new
templates for our Joomla 1.5 sites, the forum (phpbb3) as well as the
documentation wiki. Further to that, the proposals would include
layout and integration design wise of the sites. The proposal would
also include the implementation, obviously working in close
cooperation with the people who currently manage our sites.

I am sure there are plenty of experts with more experience than us who
can come up with some really sound proposals. Lots of people come to
us with ideas and things they would like changed or done better, so
this would allow them to present their proposals to the community and
for one to be chosen.

It would require a few peoples input initially to formulate the RFP,
but afterwards, more specifically to evaluate the proposals. The
winning proposal would be a great resume, and our RFP would also
include the way we're "reward" the winner, perhaps with a 'Credits'
page on joomla.org or something similar.

I'm presenting this here in a deliberately vague manner to allow for
input. At the end of the day, there would be a few stipulations, such
as having to incorporate the Joomla logo etc, but I think we'd receive
some really solid and worthy of implementation proposals. Do you?

I think this would be a wonderful way to open this part of our project
up to the community and receive their input this way. We'll never keep
everyone happy, but hey, I'm not even happy with the way I implement
things sometimes either ;)

On Dec 11, 9:36 am, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
wrote:

...

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Michael Hamanaka  
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 More options Dec 13 2009, 8:56 pm
From: Michael Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:56:41 -0800
Local: Sun, Dec 13 2009 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I'm not sure I like the idea of requesting proposals as of yet.

...mainly because we have not quite identified the entire scope of the
work.  And obviously these points are not all for Brad to answer.

Just some questions that come to mind...

This leads to questions like,  RFP for a paid gig?  just for credit?

Who is paying for this work?  If Joomla is paying for this work, who needs
to approve that?

If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

Who will ultimately be responsible for the development, the actual
production and the end product?

Is this really just a call for leadership and/or a facilitator?

Will this template work be hosted in such a place that Joomla community can
actively participate in that development?

Does the current content stay? or is there going to be some content
re-working?

The forums and the wiki's included?  anything not included?

What is the timeline for deliverables?

My suggestion is that the proposals be made public from the start,  in this
case it would be nice to know who is interested in submitting a proposal
sooner than when they are submitted, this way the process can be very open.

Would also seem logical that if several people or groups are wanting to
donate efforts that all efforts are accepted and the exclusivity game does
not play in.

If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed
the same as the volunteer proposals?

Mike Hamanaka
Website Production
Vertualize.com

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org

...

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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 13 2009, 9:07 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:07:50 +1100
Local: Sun, Dec 13 2009 9:07 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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Replies below.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Michael Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com>wrote:

> I'm not sure I like the idea of requesting proposals as of yet.

> ...mainly because we have not quite identified the entire scope of the
> work.  And obviously these points are not all for Brad to answer.

> Just some questions that come to mind...

> This leads to questions like,  RFP for a paid gig?  just for credit?

> Who is paying for this work?  If Joomla is paying for this work, who needs
> to approve that?

> If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

I'd like to think it will not involve money.

> If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

Yes

> Who will ultimately be responsible for the development, the actual
> production and the end product?

The Community Working Group

> Is this really just a call for leadership and/or a facilitator?

This is a discussion on a redesign of our sites.

> Will this template work be hosted in such a place that Joomla community can
> actively participate in that development?

I don't anticipate that would be the case. It would be up to the
person/organisation submitted the proposal.

> Does the current content stay? or is there going to be some content
> re-working?

This RFP would not include the content, that being said, I am sure some
content would need to be re-arranged.

> The forums and the wiki's included?  anything not included?

Dunno, I can't think of anything else.

> What is the timeline for deliverables?

What do you suggest?

> My suggestion is that the proposals be made public from the start,  in this
> case it would be nice to know who is interested in submitting a proposal
> sooner than when they are submitted, this way the process can be very open.

I'm not sure that we should force people to put their hand up and say they
are thinking of submitting a proposal. Also, I am not sure all proposals
should be published, again however, happy to hear other peoples input.

> Would also seem logical that if several people or groups are wanting to
> donate efforts that all efforts are accepted and the exclusivity game does
> not play in.

To me that would be up to the people submitting the proposal. How they want
to present themselves is up to them.

> If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed
> the same as the volunteer proposals?

I'm not sure I follow this question, maybe you can explain.

...

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Michael Hamanaka  
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 More options Dec 13 2009, 10:10 pm
From: Michael Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:10:37 -0800
Local: Sun, Dec 13 2009 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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> If it is paid, it seems that we lose community involvement or do we?

> I'd like to think it will not involve money.

 Stronger words are necessary here... since that will change the whole
dynamics of the management of it.

If a person submits a proposal and they win, will they lead the work?

>  Yes

IMO it would be very important to include leadership and communication
methods in this proposal.

> What is the timeline for deliverables?

> What do you suggest?

Well...  I can only make suggestions....

between now and 12/31  community input can be gathered.

That a preliminary scope be developed (public input gathered)  starting
12/31 ending 1/5, (this is where the interested parties can help sculpt the
preliminary scope)

By 1/15, all interested parties should have submitted proposals, based on
their own criteria.

By 1/20, Community WG should have some change requests to some but not all
proposals.   (where I say Community WG, maybe this could be a committee)

By 1/30, the remaining parties should send a revised proposal.

By 2/6, the Community WG should approve a single proposal (party) to lead
the complete re-design work and report back to Community WG.

work can begin promptly on a test server

(the above is just some suggestions for pre-project)

The actual work is lengthy and intensive and will require serious workload
and/or serious experience for efficient work.

The development and design work should take a couple months for high quality
work to evolve.  I think it would be an amazing opportunity for several
elements to created and contributed by several parties world-wide.

A migration schedule is necessary, I can recommend that 1 major site area or
about 10% of the Joomla.org site be moved each month.  The entire move will
take about a year?  ( I don't know the speed at which the current site was
changed to the blue theme, but it was gradual)  Although I have seen
migrations that are much faster.

If proposals will be made for a paid gig, should those proposals be managed

>> the same as the volunteer proposals?

> I'm not sure I follow this question, maybe you can explain.

This one is tricky, of course there are many individuals who are very
willing to lead this project and would do a fine job.  I guess, I can't
really make an argument on this one.  Volunteers make good contributions and
so do paid people.  A payed person you might expect to have definite
reporting and communication, although that is not to say a volunteer would
not be able to also do this.

Ultimately, from thinking about this, who ever is leading this re-design
would be a fool not to allow public assistance, or they would have to be
some non-communicative and reclusive hermit of a designer.  Probably not the
spirit of open source and community.   That is why I am forseeing this
person as a group facilitator or catalyst type.  Usually catalyst type
people flourish with some form of compensation.  Although the right person
could probably be found as a volunteer also.  So again, no opinion here.
yet  :)

I believe that this could keep a sane person busy for a year, as Joomla.org
is actually many websites.

Mike Hamanaka
Website Production
Vertualize.com

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org

...

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Brad Baker  
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 More options Dec 13 2009, 10:19 pm
From: Brad Baker <brad.ba...@community.joomla.org>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:19:29 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Dec 13 2009 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: Joomla sites redesign
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I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Let's just get
other feedback before we discuss the finer details.

BTW no migrating is needed. Switching over templates can take probably
at worst talk 30 min or less, with people who know what they are
doing, even less probably.

On Dec 14, 2:10 pm, Michael Hamanaka <haman...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

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