Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be posted here rather then there.
I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I want, but which I know are there.
I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious where they are from their names.
On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
> Hi,
> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted > this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be > posted here rather then there.
> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a > couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I > want, but which I know are there.
> As an example the following page exists: > http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, but I > am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as a > class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older > (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application > package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the > 12.1 documentation incomplete?
> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be posted here rather then there.
> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I want, but which I know are there.
> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
> Any help gratefully received
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/hgpwC4b0yhsJ.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull if you could help clarify some points for me.
I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was involved with.
Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS which is dependant on the framework?
Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the same functionality.
Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated > but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but that > could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the plans > were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items may > have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files > have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious > where they are from their names.
> Elin
> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should >> be posted here rather then there.
>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been >> a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I >> want, but which I know are there.
>> As an example the following page exists: >> http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, but >> I am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as a >> class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older >> (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application >> package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the >> 12.1 documentation incomplete?
Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more > questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull > if you could help clarify some points for me.
> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing > some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of > frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have > a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that > Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to > investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was > involved with.
> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is > software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS > which is dependant on the framework?
> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be > available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will > not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is > being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the > same functionality.
> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
> dommod
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >> where they are from their names.
>> Elin
>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should >>> be posted here rather then there.
>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been >>> a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I >>> want, but which I know are there.
>>> As an example the following page exists: >>> http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, but >>> I am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as a >>> class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
>>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the >>> older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the >>> application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, >>> or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
Thanks for another detailed response. I think I'm getting there but there are I still feel that there a couple of hazy parts to my understanding, which I hope you could clarify.
You refer to an old and new MVC. Clearly if I'm going to invest time learning more details I would like to learn the newer details that Joomla! will be using in the future. I've been refering to the following tutorial a lot ( http://docs.joomla.org/User:Rvsjoen/tutorial/Developing_an_MVC_Component), is this using the new or old MVC?
Its not explicit in your response, but I'm assuming that classes such as JModelAdmin and JModelList are part of the old MVC, can you confirm that this is correct.
As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList.
It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated subclasses functionality.
Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that structure is heading.
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 3:56:13 PM UTC+1, elin wrote:
> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and > an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the > legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of > life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the > J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward > compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major > architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). > In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if > the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. > I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC > will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point > of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and > JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. > The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor > for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
> Elin > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >> involved with.
>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >> which is dependant on the framework?
>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be >> available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will >> not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >> same functionality.
>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>> dommod
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>> where they are from their names.
>>> Elin
>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should >>>> be posted here rather then there.
>>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have >>>> been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes >>>> that I want, but which I know are there.
>>>> As an example the following page exists: >>>> http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, >>>> but I am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as >>>> a class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
>>>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the >>>> older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the >>>> application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, >>>> or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
Jclass/1.5
Jclass/1.6
Jclass/11.1
If I'm reading you right
1.5 is one Platform 1.6 is another Platform
Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
Tom
On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
> Elin
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull if you could help clarify some points for me.
> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was involved with.
> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS which is dependant on the framework?
> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the same functionality.
> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
> dommod
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious where they are from their names.
> Elin
> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
> Hi,
> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be posted here rather then there.
> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I want, but which I know are there.
> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
> Any help gratefully received
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/V63_72SYb60J.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the older platform releases.
@Donmod
Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully with minimal disruption.
The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. You can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of developer.joomla.org.
As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the
> framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that > is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future > there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality > that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. > It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a > replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated > subclasses functionality.
Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the new and cool and the old and reliable.
> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way > that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that > structure is heading.
You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over what time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to get into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write a new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by contributing for all to benefit from.
Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything about the developers in this community.
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
> Hi Elin
> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have noticed > the platform in the development category is mixed in with the Joomla > versions in the breakdown of subpages.
> Jclass/1.5 > Jclass/1.6 > Jclass/11.1
> If I'm reading you right
> 1.5 is one Platform > 1.6 is another Platform
> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs > Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
> Tom
> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com <javascript:>> > wrote:
> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and > an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the > legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of > life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the > J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward > compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major > architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). > In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if > the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. > I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC > will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point > of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and > JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. > The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor > for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
> Elin > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >> involved with.
>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >> which is dependant on the framework?
>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be >> available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will >> not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >> same functionality.
>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>> dommod
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>> where they are from their names.
>>> Elin
>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should >>>> be posted here rather then there.
>>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have >>>> been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes >>>> that I want, but which I know are there.
>>>> As an example the following page exists: >>>> http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, >>>> but I am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as >>>> a class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
>>>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the >>>> older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the >>>> application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, >>>> or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
>>>> Any help gratefully received
>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! General Development" group. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/V63_72SYb60J. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
The article suggests that the framework/platform and CMS were only split from version 1.7 (of the CMS) onwards.
If you take a look at this http://developer.joomla.org/news.html then you can see the the framework/platform had the following release dates: 05/07/2011 Version 11.1 26/07/2011 Version 11.2 24/11/2011 Version 11.3 04/01/2012 Version 11.4 09/05/2012 Version 12.1
To my way of thinking this would mean the version 1.7 of the CMS would have been released using version 11.1 of the framework, version 2.5 of the CMS would have been released using version 11.4 of the framework. I don't know if sub point releases of the CMS, 1.7.1, 1.7.2 etc would use the same framework as 1.7 or would use the most up to date framework.
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 9:12:09 PM UTC+1, Hutchy68 wrote:
> Hi Elin
> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have noticed > the platform in the development category is mixed in with the Joomla > versions in the breakdown of subpages.
> Jclass/1.5 > Jclass/1.6 > Jclass/11.1
> If I'm reading you right
> 1.5 is one Platform > 1.6 is another Platform
> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs > Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
> Tom
> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com <javascript:>> > wrote:
> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and > an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the > legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of > life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the > J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward > compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major > architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). > In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if > the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. > I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC > will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point > of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and > JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. > The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor > for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
> Elin > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >> involved with.
>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >> which is dependant on the framework?
>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be >> available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will >> not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >> same functionality.
>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>> dommod
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>> where they are from their names.
>>> Elin
>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should >>>> be posted here rather then there.
>>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have >>>> been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes >>>> that I want, but which I know are there.
>>>> As an example the following page exists: >>>> http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/Application/JModelAdmin.html, >>>> but I am unable to find it from the left hand navigation. Its not listed as >>>> a class under the application package, or anywhere else for that matter.
>>>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the >>>> older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the >>>> application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, >>>> or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
>>>> Any help gratefully received
>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Joomla! General Development" group. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/V63_72SYb60J. > To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
So framework is old terminology synonymous with version number in 1.5, 1.6, 1.7 ? Then framework was dropped and platform was the new terminology used in its place.
So 11.x is really the platform of 1.6 and 1.7. Released separately last summer after the facy as what 1.6 & 1.7 are built on.
2.5 is built on platform 12.1 as is 3.0?
Nothing in development is getting deleted but rather a better definition of what is what so everything is clearer, easier to find and more organized.
Makes my head spin.
Tom
On Aug 16, 2012, at 5:36 PM, elin <elin.war...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the older platform releases.
> @Donmod
> Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully with minimal disruption.
> The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. You can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of developer.joomla.org.
> As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. > It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated subclasses functionality.
> Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the new and cool and the old and reliable.
> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that structure is heading.
> You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over what time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to get into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write a new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by contributing for all to benefit from.
> Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything about the developers in this community.
> Anyway I've rambled on long enough,
> Elin
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
> Hi Elin
> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
> Jclass/1.5
> Jclass/1.6
> Jclass/11.1
> If I'm reading you right
> 1.5 is one Platform > 1.6 is another Platform
> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
> Tom
> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>> Elin
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull if you could help clarify some points for me.
>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was involved with.
>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS which is dependant on the framework?
>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the same functionality.
>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>> dommod
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious where they are from their names.
>> Elin
>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be posted here rather then there.
>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I want, but which I know are there.
>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
>> Any help gratefully received
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> To view this discussion on
Ok scratch my other email. I'll look at those. Thanks, a bit confusing. I just want to make sure the organization is in line with what would make sense and how to find it with ease.
Tom
On Aug 16, 2012, at 6:15 PM, dommod <dom.casper...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The article suggests that the framework/platform and CMS were only split from version 1.7 (of the CMS) onwards.
> If you take a look at this http://developer.joomla.org/news.html then you can see the the framework/platform had the following release dates:
> 05/07/2011 Version 11.1
> 26/07/2011 Version 11.2
> 24/11/2011 Version 11.3
> 04/01/2012 Version 11.4
> 09/05/2012 Version 12.1
> And if you take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joomla#Version_history you can see that the CMS had the following release dates:
> 22/01/2008 1.5
> 10/01/2011 1.6
> 19/07/2011 1.7
> 24/01/2012 2.5
> To my way of thinking this would mean the version 1.7 of the CMS would have been released using version 11.1 of the framework, version 2.5 of the CMS would have been released using version 11.4 of the framework. I don't know if sub point releases of the CMS, 1.7.1, 1.7.2 etc would use the same framework as 1.7 or would use the most up to date framework.
> I hope that the above is accurate and helpful.
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 9:12:09 PM UTC+1, Hutchy68 wrote:
> Hi Elin
> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
> Jclass/1.5
> Jclass/1.6
> Jclass/11.1
> If I'm reading you right
> 1.5 is one Platform > 1.6 is another Platform
> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
> Tom
> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>> Elin
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull if you could help clarify some points for me.
>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was involved with.
>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS which is dependant on the framework?
>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the same functionality.
>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>> dommod
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious where they are from their names.
>> Elin
>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions should be posted here rather then there.
>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes that I want, but which I know are there.
>> I have been looking in the latest (12.1) platform, but if I use the older (11.4) platform I can find documentation for JModelAdmin in the application package. Does this mean that JModelAdmin has been deprecated, or is the 12.1 documentation incomplete?
>> Any help gratefully received
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/V63_72SYb60J.
>> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/V0pa5k6aSiYJ.
> To post to this group, send an email to joomla-dev-general@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-general+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
I know the feeling... Yes basically last summer we had a combination rebranding and physical separation. I think it will all be a lot easier to follow once we really have 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7 behind us.
3 should be on Platform 12.2. If you watch the details of things people are working on you will see that sometimes they are very carefully saying 12.3 as the @since version and that means that it could break backward compatibility or that it is really not going to be ready for use by the CMS. Of course I'm hoping some of the GSoC pacages make it in.
On Thursday, August 16, 2012 6:59:01 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
> Thanks Elin
> So framework is old terminology synonymous with version number in 1.5, > 1.6, 1.7 ? Then framework was dropped and platform was the new terminology > used in its place.
> So 11.x is really the platform of 1.6 and 1.7. Released separately last > summer after the facy as what 1.6 & 1.7 are built on.
> 2.5 is built on platform 12.1 as is 3.0?
> Nothing in development is getting deleted but rather a better definition > of what is what so everything is clearer, easier to find and more > organized.
> Makes my head spin.
> Tom
> On Aug 16, 2012, at 5:36 PM, elin <elin....@gmail.com <javascript:>> > wrote:
> @Hutchy68
> The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a > separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the > platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only > distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is > of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions > of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything > from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people > especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the > older platform releases.
> @Donmod
> Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I > said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching > from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 > but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term > support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will > start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully > with minimal disruption.
> The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. You > can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of > developer.joomla.org.
> As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the >> framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that >> is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future >> there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality >> that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. >> It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a >> replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated >> subclasses functionality.
> Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, > JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the > old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will > continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as > well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the > important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look > like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you > should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing > platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better > and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new > code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft > carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can > the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still > evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus > the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the > platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the > new and cool and the old and reliable.
>> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way >> that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that >> structure is heading.
> You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over what > time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to get > into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write a > new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more > work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of > the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with > other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The > cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by > contributing for all to benefit from.
> Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really > think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready > for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to > be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some > technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single > page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything > about the developers in this community.
> Anyway I've rambled on long enough,
> Elin
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
>> Hi Elin
>> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have >> noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the >> Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
>> Jclass/1.5 >> Jclass/1.6 >> Jclass/11.1
>> If I'm reading you right
>> 1.5 is one Platform >> 1.6 is another Platform
>> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
>> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
>> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs >> Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
>> Tom
>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform >> and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and >> the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of >> life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the >> J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward >> compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major >> architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). >> In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if >> the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. >> I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC >> will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point >> of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and >> JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. >> The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor >> for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>> Elin >> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >>> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >>> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >>> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >>> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >>> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >>> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >>> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >>> involved with.
>>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >>> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >>> which is dependant on the framework?
>>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still >>> be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and >>> will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >>> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >>> same functionality.
>>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>>> dommod
>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>>> where they are from their names.
>>>> Elin
>>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've
Thanks very much for the detailed reply. It's only rambling if you repeat yourself and personally I found all your information useful.
The scale of the components I'm working on are 1 to 3 coding man hours, so the idea of learning the new MVC structure and attempting to subclass it myself is very daunting. I'd love to contribute to the CMS, but I feel that I still don't yet have the necessary skills; I'm an able PHP coder, but I only have a rudimentary grasp of software patterns and software architecture.
I just wanted to clarify your statement: "....if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really think it is a component and not an application)...". Is my understanding correct that a component is a body of code that can be installed and uninstalled on the Joomla! CMS and an application is a project independent of the CMS built using the framework/platform. Is it correct to say that the Joomla! CMS is an application built using/on the Joomla! framework/platform?
Thanks again for clarifying these points, I really appreciate it.
On Thursday, 16 August 2012 22:36:28 UTC+1, elin wrote:
> @Hutchy68
> The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a > separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the > platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only > distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is > of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions > of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything > from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people > especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the > older platform releases.
> @Donmod
> Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I > said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching > from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 > but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term > support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will > start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully > with minimal disruption.
> The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. You > can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of > developer.joomla.org.
> As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the >> framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that >> is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future >> there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality >> that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. >> It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a >> replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated >> subclasses functionality.
> Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, > JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the > old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will > continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as > well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the > important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look > like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you > should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing > platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better > and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new > code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft > carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can > the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still > evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus > the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the > platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the > new and cool and the old and reliable.
>> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way >> that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that >> structure is heading.
> You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over what > time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to get > into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write a > new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more > work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of > the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with > other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The > cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by > contributing for all to benefit from.
> Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really > think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready > for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to > be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some > technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single > page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything > about the developers in this community.
> Anyway I've rambled on long enough,
> Elin
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
>> Hi Elin
>> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have >> noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the >> Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
>> Jclass/1.5 >> Jclass/1.6 >> Jclass/11.1
>> If I'm reading you right
>> 1.5 is one Platform >> 1.6 is another Platform
>> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
>> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
>> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs >> Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
>> Tom
>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform >> and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and >> the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of >> life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the >> J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward >> compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major >> architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). >> In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if >> the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. >> I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC >> will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point >> of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and >> JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. >> The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor >> for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>> Elin >> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >>> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >>> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >>> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >>> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >>> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >>> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >>> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >>> involved with.
>>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >>> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >>> which is dependant on the framework?
>>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still >>> be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and >>> will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >>> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >>> same functionality.
>>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>>> dommod
>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>>> where they are from their names.
>>>> Elin
>>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions >>>>> should be posted here rather then there.
>>>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently
Extended model classes such as JModelAdmin, JModelForm, JModelItem and JModelList are part of the legacy platform. Most of their function has been replaced by API availble in the Content package also new in 12.1.
To me this looks like the work has already been done and the functionality I want already within the current framework. The only problem is I can't find a single reference anywhere to "the Content package". I've found the class JHTMLContent ( http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/HTML/_libraries---joomla---html...), but this really doesn't look promising.
Again if you can help clarify or point me in the correct direction then I'd be greatfull.
On Thursday, 16 August 2012 22:36:28 UTC+1, elin wrote:
> @Hutchy68
> The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a > separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the > platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only > distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is > of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions > of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything > from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people > especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the > older platform releases.
> @Donmod
> Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I > said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching > from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 > but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term > support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will > start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully > with minimal disruption.
> The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. You > can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of > developer.joomla.org.
> As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the >> framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that >> is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future >> there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality >> that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. >> It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a >> replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated >> subclasses functionality.
> Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, > JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the > old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will > continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as > well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the > important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look > like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you > should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing > platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better > and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new > code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft > carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can > the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still > evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus > the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the > platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the > new and cool and the old and reliable.
>> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a way >> that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that that >> structure is heading.
> You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over what > time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to get > into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write a > new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more > work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of > the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with > other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The > cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by > contributing for all to benefit from.
> Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really > think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready > for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to > be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some > technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single > page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything > about the developers in this community.
> Anyway I've rambled on long enough,
> Elin
> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
>> Hi Elin
>> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have >> noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the >> Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
>> Jclass/1.5 >> Jclass/1.6 >> Jclass/11.1
>> If I'm reading you right
>> 1.5 is one Platform >> 1.6 is another Platform
>> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
>> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
>> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs >> Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
>> Tom
>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform >> and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and >> the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of >> life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the >> J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward >> compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major >> architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). >> In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if >> the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. >> I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC >> will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point >> of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and >> JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. >> The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor >> for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>> Elin >> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised more >>> questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be greatfull >>> if you could help clarify some points for me.
>>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >>> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >>> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >>> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >>> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >>> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >>> involved with.
>>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >>> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >>> which is dependant on the framework?
>>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still >>> be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and >>> will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >>> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >>> same functionality.
>>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>>> dommod
>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
>>>> It has been moved to the legacy libraries, meaning yes it is deprecated >>>> but it is still available. Eventually it will be gone.
>>>> Unfortunately phpdocumenter doesn't seem to have legacy or compat but >>>> that could be because it has not been updated since May. In May iirc the >>>> plans were somewhat different and those folders didn't exist and the items >>>> may have been elsewhere (like in in the cms) . Right now also so many files >>>> have been moved around because of the autoloader but at least it is obvious >>>> where they are from their names.
>>>> Elin
>>>> On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:02:16 PM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Sorry if I'm breaking etiquette by posting here as I've already posted >>>>> this question at forum.joomla.org, but I've read that questions >>>>> should be posted here rather then there.
>>>>> I find the API documentation really useful, but recently there have >>>>> been a couple of occasions where I have been unable to find the classes >>>>> that I want, but which I know are there.
So ... the Content package basically refers to the package sitting in the content branch of the eBaySF repository and no one really knows when or if they will be merged in their current form but if you read the long long thread about those packages on the platform list you will see reference to additional work being done. In the meantime right now the platform is kind of content-less but you can use what is in legacy to handle content. It's kind of a compromise position. I've been doing some work on an abstract content table class but I haven't really decided if I think it goes in the CMS or the Platform.
The classes you are referring to really do not belong in the platform in that they are specifically designed to work in the Joomla CMS. So they are in kind of a holding state for the life of J3 which as I said is 3 years, so quite a bit of time.
> Extended model classes such as JModelAdmin, JModelForm, JModelItem and > JModelList are part of the legacy platform. Most of their function has > been replaced by API availble in the Content package also new in 12.1.
> To me this looks like the work has already been done and the functionality > I want already within the current framework. The only problem is I can't > find a single reference anywhere to "the Content package". I've found the > class JHTMLContent ( > http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Platform/HTML/_libraries---joomla---html...), > but this really doesn't look promising.
> Again if you can help clarify or point me in the correct direction then > I'd be greatfull.
> Thanks,
> Dommod
> On Thursday, 16 August 2012 22:36:28 UTC+1, elin wrote:
>> @Hutchy68
>> The history of the platform is that it was released last summer as a >> separate package at version 11.1. 1.6 and 1.7 are "versions" of the >> platform from when we called it the framework and it was still only >> distributed as part of the CMS. What makes it messy for documentation is >> of course that most of what was in the 1.6 and 1.7 (and 11.1-11.3) versions >> of the platform is still there, so you don't want to just delete everything >> from the documentation that has those old labels. Further some people >> especially those running stand along applications may be using one of the >> older platform releases.
>> @Donmod
>> Joomla CMS 2.5/Platform 12.1 includes the new MVC classes however as I >> said the CMS is not using them. To begin with they would require switching >> from JApplication to JApplicationWeb something which is proposed for CMS 3 >> but has not happened and which will obviously not happen for the long term >> support release of 2.5. Over time it is possible that Joomla CMS 3 will >> start using the new MVC, but that is going to happen slowly and carefully >> with minimal disruption.
>> The platform manual contains some basic documentation of the new MVC. >> You can find a link to the manual on the Resources menu of >> developer.joomla.org.
>> As JModel is shown in the API documentation for the latest release of the >>> framework (12.1), then can I assume that it is part of the new MVC? If that >>> is correct, then as a component developer, can I expect that in the future >>> there will be new subclasses of JModel, that will provide the functionality >>> that came from subclasses such as JModelAdmin and JModelList. >>> It seems odd to me that a subclass would be deprecated before a >>> replacement subclass is available that replicates that deprecated >>> subclasses functionality.
>> Yes JModel, JView and JController are the new MVC and JLegacyModel, >> JLegacyController, and JLegacyView and all classes extneding them are the >> old MVC. It's not deprecated it's in legacy mode and as I said it will >> continue to be available for the three years of the J3 release cycle as >> well as the 18 months of the remaining 2.5 release cycle. Right now the >> important forward thinking issue is about what Joomla 4 is going to look >> like when it is released in 2014. At that point as I said I think you >> should expect to be using the new MVC. Of course if you are writing >> platform applications today you are using the new MVC because it's better >> and works with JApplicationWeb/JapplicationCLI and all the other great new >> code that is in the platform. It is just that the gigantic air craft >> carrier that is the CMS cannot turn on a dime to a new architecture nor can >> the thousands of extension developers. The whole beautiful (but still >> evolving) dynamic of a separate platform release of the Joomla folder plus >> the CMS and legacy folders lets the CMS be true to its nature and the >> platform to be true to its and for developers to have access to both the >> new and cool and the old and reliable.
>>> Basically I just want to make sure that I'm coding my components in a >>> way that respects the underlying Joomla! structure and the direction that >>> that structure is heading.
>> You have to ask yourself ... where is what you are doing heading over >> what time frame? There are a lot of considerations that I'm not going to >> get into because this email is long enough as it is. However, you can write >> a new MVC component right now if you want, you will just need to do more >> work--but it would be great for you to contribute that work in the form of >> the subclasses that we all will need. By contributing your bit along with >> other developers contributing their bits, the project moves forward. The >> cool thing is that as an early adopter you get to help shape that by >> contributing for all to benefit from.
>> Personally, if I were starting a new major component (assuming I really >> think it is a component and not an application), I would want to be ready >> for the future and if I am going to spend 6-10 months building it I want to >> be ready for J4, So I'd probably rather do it the new way. There are some >> technical issues with mixing and matching the separate MVCs on a single >> page load but there will also be solutions for that if I know anything >> about the developers in this community.
>> Anyway I've rambled on long enough,
>> Elin
>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 4:12:09 PM UTC-4, Hutchy68 wrote:
>>> Hi Elin
>>> I'm interested too. I've been helping sort out the wiki and I have >>> noticed the platform in the development category is mixed in with the >>> Joomla versions in the breakdown of subpages.
>>> Jclass/1.5 >>> Jclass/1.6 >>> Jclass/11.1
>>> If I'm reading you right
>>> 1.5 is one Platform >>> 1.6 is another Platform
>>> Is 1.6, 1.7 & 2.5 all platform 11.1?
>>> Or was the platform 1.6 independent of 1.7 & 2.5?
>>> I'd have to check for an existing page but a wiki page Platform vs >>> Application would be beneficial to the Development pages.
>>> Tom
>>> On Aug 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Yes it is two projects a framework which is called the Joomla Platform >>> and an application called the Joomla CMS. All of those child classes and >>> the legacy classes are obviously in the CMS during the 2.5 until its end of >>> life and I don't see any way the legacy layer would be removed during the >>> J3 life cycle either (if it were it would have to be in a backward >>> compatible way since a minor release like 3.1 would not make major >>> architectural changes and we are committed to that legacy layer for 3.0). >>> In other words ... many extension developers would still need it even if >>> the CMS core switched to the new MVC so you can count on it being there. >>> I think the current thinking is that all of the remains of the old MVC >>> will be removed for J4 but who knows really what will happen. By that point >>> of course there will be replacement child classes of JModel, JView and >>> JController as needed to make the CMS functional and easily extensible. >>> The fact that those child classes don't yet exist is the major inhibitor >>> for people working in the CMS moving to the new MVC.
>>> Elin >>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:10:59 AM UTC-4, dommod wrote:
>>>> Thank you Elin and Andrea for you replies,
>>>> Unfortunately your answers and a bit of further reading have raised >>>> more questions about the structure of the Joomla! project and I'd be >>>> greatfull if you could help clarify some points for me.
>>>> I've been fiddling with Joomla! for a little while (since 1.5), writing >>>> some components and building a few sites. I know about the idea of >>>> frameworks from a theoretical/software architecture point of view and have >>>> a tiny bit of experience with the Zend framework. I was also awear that >>>> Joomla! had it's own framework but until now I hadn't bothered to >>>> investigate the details and how they impacted on development work I was >>>> involved with.
>>>> Am I correct in saying that there are two Joomla! projects, one is >>>> software framework which can be used independently and the other is a CMS >>>> which is dependant on the framework?
>>>> Is JModelAdmin being deprecated from the framework only and will still >>>> be available withing the CMS? Or is JModelAdmin completely deprecated and >>>> will not be available from within either the framework or the CMS? If it is >>>> being completely deprecated, then what should I be using instead to get the >>>> same functionality.
>>>> Thanks again for the replies and sorry for my confusion
>>>> dommod
>>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:36:41 AM UTC+1, elin wrote:
